I am a "rational pragmatist", my idols are Nietzsche, Foucault and Machiavelli. (Summary/ TL;DR @ Bottom)
Based on Nietzsche I am able to see that, though God may be dead in his world; in the life of the typical American, God is very much alive and controlling.
God is a double edged sword:
On one hand, (I frankly do believe that) Without God, Morality would not develop into what it is now. Just as creatures grow and lose parts for functions, we grew religion in order to find a sense of community and ethics. Yet now we as we streamline our power as a species, we need to sever our ties with religion as it has become burdensome.
On the other hand, As I have said religion is burdensome now that we have developed other support structures for morality. When the more advanced structures are interfered with by tradition, morality shifts gears and goes in reverse, and is only pushed back forward by more moral structures of experience and knowledge.
We owe a lot to religion, especially making great art that even I can enjoy, and giving the best stories that can be used to teach morals. However, we need to use both the subjective, and objective gaze to divorce our relationship with religion.
As I have said above, God is not Dead in America, as is evident by the culture of prayer and shrines in homes. It however is fading by each day. In 1863, slaves were freed. In 1920, Women gained the right to vote. Right now, June 2015, Gay Marriage was legalized. Soon religion itself is going away.
However, as Foucault demonstrates, somethings that were considered primitive in nature can teach us lessons if we understand why they were such.
For instance, Many Christians want a sense of community and tradition, and are deeply saddened when this is destroyed by secular laws. In order to gain the sway of influence over them, we have to promise more community and a greater heritage than before. Should one forget this, they will fall into a "Depressed Atheism."
Where people see no community, breeds depression. Where people see no meaning, begets death to them. In order to overturn religion, we need to create a new community where we can be supportive of each other, like this one for instance, in order to maintain the sanity of people.
We can also use what made religion so successful, (the art, the stories, the sereneness, the consolations, and the forgiveness,) in order to help us build a better society. Note that the traits above are inherent of religion, especially Christianity, but religion does not own these traits. Thus we can build a "new religion of objectivity" that creates art, stories, and love for each other.
In order to do this, as Machiavelli has shown, is to use cunning and at times coercion in order to climb to the top and sever the ties with religion. As the world is now, one of the primary leaders are the religious, guiding our actions for better or for worse.
We must use the crumbling structure of religion to gain power, using PR's and a friendly guise in order to do so. Atheist leaders may have to even feign ignorance or apathy toward our true goals which forces us to suppress who we are, but in exchange gain greater access and manipulation over religion.
(Summary/ TL;DR)
Nietzsche shows me that religion had good use, but those uses have not been sufficient for allowing it to live.
Foucault shows me that religion can still be of use, if we understand what made it successful.
Machiavelli shows me that religion should be used as good PR to gain power and ultimately end religion.
Machiavelli, Bushes hero? Religion is definitely pragmatic, and why it won't go away. I honestly don't agree that religion is why we are moral. The Judeo-Christian-Islamic, Hindu, modern Buddhism schools, have done everything in the past, and now, to under mind what being truly moral is with their dogmas and shall not's. Is sex really wrong for enjoyment, is nudity really wrong, is being gay or lesbian really wrong, is being a so-called coward who doesn't want to kill or be killed wrong, is not wanting kids, or a family really wrong, is being a free spirit or thinker really wrong, is having a drink or smoking pot for recreation responsibly really wrong etc.? Society gives too much credit to religion for moral behavior that forgives transgressions and saying their all powerful God forgives them. Their absolute right and wrong thinking, and morality, is ridiculous in so many ways. Examples: Thou shall not kill! Thou shall not masturbate! Thou shall not disrespect authority! Thou shall turn the other cheek! Being poor is noble! Nietzsche was correct, Christianity is for sheep, not humans.
Quote from: Solitary on July 20, 2015, 01:54:57 PM
Machiavelli, Bushes hero?
Yep, Bush was pretty smart, just enough to get into office though.
Quote from: Solitary on July 20, 2015, 01:54:57 PM
I honestly don't agree that religion is why we are moral.
Oh well, It's no mistaking it's a part though. Where would we be without the strict authoritative measures of Christianity and Islam. They created order, just a shitty one mind you, but and order. Now we add some sense to that.
Quote from: Solitary on July 20, 2015, 01:54:57 PM
Nietzsche was correct, Christianity is for sheep, not humans.
What about the art? The calmness? Sure we can take charge, but we also need a refuge once every while
You forgot the music. Are you saying you can't have great art without religion? Bush was an idiot with connections, just like Sarah. How smart does one have to be to listen to Cheney for advice that got the best that America has to offer killed based on a lie? Religion is not a part of morality accept their own BS. Calmness? Ever try meditation, or smoke pot? Did you know that the painter of the cysteine Chapel ceiling was not only an atheist, but gay. The inquisitions and Holy wars are hardly an example of morality. Machiavelli is also a poor example of moral thinking. Right, Saddam wielded an iron fist and kept order too by killing innocent people like Bush and his cronies did, are we suppose to use him for an example of being moral? Sheep and cattle led to slaughter are kept in order too by their overlords. Are the people in ISIS being controlled and in order? You know they are, just like rabid dogs of war.
Quote from: dtq123 on July 20, 2015, 02:15:04 PM
Oh well, It's no mistaking it's a part though. Where would we be without the strict authoritative measures of Christianity and Islam. They created order, just a shitty one mind you, but and order. Now we add some sense to that.
Though I understand what you are trying to say, religion didn't do anything except to allow for PEOPLE to have strict authoritative measures. PEOPLE invented religions for their use. Religions are not something outside of mankind's imagination. And as to where would be we be without those measures? I dare say a whole lot further along. While we can spend days listing the scientific inquiries that religion fought to stop, I think we would have trouble finding scientific inquiries that religion pushed other than anything to do with killing.
Quote from: Solitary on July 20, 2015, 02:33:52 PM
You forgot the music. Are you saying you can't have great art without religion?
It inspires people to stay in it, that's my point. We need to use art to our advantage.
Quote from: Solitary on July 20, 2015, 02:33:52 PM
Bush was an idiot with connections, just like Sarah.
A-...Nope, point taken.
Quote from: Solitary on July 20, 2015, 02:33:52 PM
Calmness? Ever try meditation, or smoke pot?
Extroverts can't meditate well, and marijuana can cause damage to the body. We need a community outside of religion.
Quote from: Solitary on July 20, 2015, 02:33:52 PM
The inquisitions and Holy wars are hardly an example of morality.
A-...Point taken... Again
Quote from: Solitary on July 20, 2015, 02:33:52 PM
Machiavelli is also a poor example of moral thinking.
He does teach us the power of coercion, and we should exercise it when need, especially using the law to our advantage.
Quote from: aitm on July 20, 2015, 04:08:34 PM
Religions are not something outside of mankind's imagination.
Religious followers are the embodiment of religion.
Quote from: aitm on July 20, 2015, 04:08:34 PM
And as to where would be we be without those measures? I dare say a whole lot further along.
At what cost though? Philosophy to most people is dull, so an easy way to find guidance in life was religion. Thus we need ways to develop philosophical thinking that gives people a way to give their life meaning.
I'm trying to give credit where it is due, and be solution oriented. And I think I've said it somewhere before, I'm not exactly rational.
Yes followers are the embodiment of religion, but what does that have to do with religion not being outside of mankind's imagination, it actually makes my point.
At what cost? I don't understand the question. How can we assume that history would have us being worse off without religion? Consider that prior to merely the last 50 years, nearly every religion had no problem and mostly backed "military" actions against other religions and sects. Hell, the vast majority of wars were fought "in the name of" religion, but certainly not because of religion.
I would think we would declare without hesitation that humanity would be better off without religion, but lets see how the arguments go, I am interested in the speculative nature of what humanity would be like without religion back in the 800's or so.
Quote from: aitm on July 20, 2015, 04:21:57 PM
Yes followers are the embodiment of religion, but what does that have to do with religion not being outside of mankind's imagination, it actually makes my point.
At what cost? I don't understand the question. How can we assume that history would have us being worse off without religion? Consider that prior to merely the last 50 years, nearly every religion had no problem and mostly backed "military" actions against other religions and sects. Hell, the vast majority of wars were fought "in the name of" religion, but certainly not because of religion.
I would think we would declare without hesitation that humanity would be better off without religion, but lets see how the arguments go, I am interested in the speculative nature of what humanity would be like without religion back in the 800's or so.
Let's draw the line right here. I'm not in the mood for fist fights now *Yawn*
Quote from: dtq123 on July 20, 2015, 04:34:15 PM
I'm not in the mood for fist fights now
really? You got fist fights from an invitation to discuss how humanity may have progressed without religion? Wow….*makes note not to comment about dt's font*.
Quote from: aitm on July 20, 2015, 05:16:07 PM
really? You got fist fights from an invitation to discuss how humanity may have progressed without religion? Wow….*makes note not to comment about dt's font*.
I just feel irrational at times and don't want to explain, you know? At least I admit it...
Fair enough. You should seriously reconsider posting threads then eh?
Quote from: dtq123 on July 20, 2015, 04:14:59 PM
Religious followers are the embodiment of religion.
Not really sure what you mean. But I would add that the real damage is by the hierarchy of each religion. It is that element that wants control, gets it and then fights to maintain it. They espouse the tenants of the religion they espouse, but do not let those ideas or ideals control their actions. Maintaining control is what it is about--and they will do anything to keep it. The sheeple just go along with whatever the leaders tell them. That's what causes the damage. I think you will find that those religions that has less of a rigid hierarchy the less dangerous they are.
Quote from: aitm on July 20, 2015, 05:37:56 PM
Fair enough. You should seriously reconsider posting threads then eh?
This was more of a FYI post, I didn't expect much.
dtq123 ... thanks for sharing. You have a substantial and developed view. I certainly have a soft spot myself for Nietzsche and Machiavelli ... though I am not as knowledgable about Foucault. I think this might have been better in one of the General sections rather than the Intro section. Also shame on most of you responding ... this wasn't an opportunity to quibble with dtq123 .. but to exposit your own "more complete view".
Mike CL ... "Religious followers are the embodiment of religion." is exactly where I am coming from. This proposition was defended in different terms by dtq123 and aitm. Your concern is about clergy in general and politicians who use religion for nefarious purposes ... you oppose authoritarianism ... and I agree.
Quote from: Baruch on July 20, 2015, 08:59:46 PM
Also shame on most of you responding ... this wasn't an opportunity to quibble with dtq123 .
I am sorry, maybe we should have a section where you are expected to post threads and no one is allowed to respond….what the fuck, is this kindergarten?
Maybe you skipped the part where I thought this would be a fun opportunity to discuss what we think humanity would look like without religion.
QuoteI would think we would declare without hesitation that humanity would be better off without religion, but lets see how the arguments go, I am interested in the speculative nature of what humanity would be like without religion back in the 800's or so.
Don't get so caught up in the shit in your own underwear that you think other people are trying to steal them….sheesh.
why is this in the intro section? lol
Quote from: aitm on July 20, 2015, 09:33:48 PM
Maybe you skipped the part where I thought this would be a fun opportunity to discuss what we think humanity would look like without religion.
Some RL stuff happened and I got upset, but I'm better now, sorry for not explaining X3
I'd love to hear how you think man would have developed without religion.
I was acting immature and selfish earlier, my apologies :sad:
Edit: I was late, wasn't I? :sad:
Quote from: Deidre32 on July 21, 2015, 12:03:20 AM
why is this in the intro section? lol
To get to know me better silly~
Religion was and is just a mere power play for control of people used along with the many lies and deceptions. I suspect that had religion never existed we might have been a much better world with much less fighting and killing. After all, what was ever moral about killing others all because someone else didn't believe in the correct god? What's so moral about giving money, often by force and threats of violence under the guise of morality? No, the world would have been just fine without religion because our species is the only one with religion and the only one that engages in industrial killing for the sake of morality. .
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 21, 2015, 12:35:29 AM
Religion was and is just a mere power play for control of people used along with the many lies and deceptions.
Religion also gives (false) hope, and some people need it. The world is often too much for people if they can't surrender to an all-loving daddy.
My point was that we are where we are because of religion, and there are reasons why some religions stayed while others didn't (Other than the fact that you do kill infidels)
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 12:47:06 AM
Religion also gives (false) hope, and some people need it. The world is often too much for people if they can't surrender to an all-loving daddy.
My point was that we are where we are because of religion, and there are reasons why some religions stayed while others didn't (Other than the fact that you do kill infidels)
Wait, people need to be lied to and need false hope? I seriously doubt that is the case. In fact people who cling to religion would be much better off if they had never been exposed to such lies and bullshit from the get go.. No, they don't need it at all, but thinking they need it is an entirely different proposition.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 21, 2015, 01:14:59 AM
Wait, people need to be lied to and need false hope? I seriously doubt that is the case. In fact people who cling to religion would be much better off if they had never been exposed to such lies and bullshit from the get go.. No, they don't need it at all, but thinking they need it is an entirely different proposition.
False hope is a coping mechanism, a shitty one at that, but is still one. We just need to teach people better methods of coping.
All jokes aside I prefer to be honest with people instead of filling their heads with the notion of some magical man in the sky who doesn't even exist to begin with.
I sometimes struggle to keep my yap shut dealing with my gf over this stuff as she believes that some 2000 year old dead zombie somehow does one fucking thing in relationship to the modern world. She's normally a very intelligent woman, but the nonsense crops up from time to time that all she has to do is talk to the wall to fix things.
One example is the previous owners of this home had tried to have a baby with no success, but Sylvia claims to have prayed for them and whallah! The bitch* got knocked up and had a baby.
Obviously I have absolutely no way to disprove that prayer had a damned thing to do with anything, but I really suspect that they just had sex..
*From all accounts the woman was a real bitch,but that's another story for another time. .:lol:
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 12:47:06 AM
Religion also gives (false) hope, and some people need it. The world is often too much for people if they can't surrender to an all-loving daddy.
My point was that we are where we are because of religion, and there are reasons why some religions stayed while others didn't (Other than the fact that you do kill infidels)
The problem with false hope though, is that is the easiest cord to loop round someone's neck and control them with. Be it religion, war propaganda, selling overpriced products telling you it will solve a problem you didn't know you had, it's all the same.
The reason why certain religions have become as popular as it has is based on how easily the lie has been moulded around the society it is represented in, as well as Argumentum ad populum, the appeal that because more people believe it, it must thus be true.
Even I use to believe "well there are so many religions, so aspects in them must be true", until I accepted the fact it's no different then the happily ever after in storybooks read to children.
Now this isn't me trying to step on your own beliefs, everyone has their own, I'm just merely saying what mine are.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on July 21, 2015, 01:32:14 AM
All jokes aside I prefer to be honest with people instead of filling their heads with the notion of some magical man in the sky who doesn't even exist to begin with.
The thing is, is that people fell into the trap because people don't want the truth... People want to be happy, not knowledgeable. For most people, their upbringing shows them that knowledge is dull and pretentious when it isn't. Thus we need to make knowledge exciting.
Quote from: Munch on July 21, 2015, 03:20:49 AM
The problem with false hope though, is that is the easiest cord to loop round someone's neck and control them with. Be it religion, war propaganda, selling overpriced products telling you it will solve a problem you didn't know you had, it's all the same.
The reason why certain religions have become as popular as it has is based on how easily the lie has been moulded around the society it is represented in, as well as Argumentum ad populum, the appeal that because more people believe it, it must thus be true.
Even I use to believe "well there are so many religions, so aspects in them must be true", until I accepted the fact it's no different then the happily ever after in storybooks read to children.
Now this isn't me trying to step on your own beliefs, everyone has their own, I'm just merely saying what mine are.
Wow... Never thought about it that way... Look at me, I make things so complex :eyes:
Seriously though, thanks for the insight. I just woke up so this will definitely spice up my day a bit.
No probs, I like all you guys here, this site feels like a little haven from the insanity, cruelty and Bullshit of day to day life, so I enjoy seeing what everyone has to say (minus the occasional troll the comes in to piss in the fountain )
Control and manipulation aside, religion has worked very hard to stymy serious science. Every time a new idea was presented it had to first be checked to see how it would agree with dogma. Doctors in the -300 had a better understanding of the human body that the doctors of the 17th century who had to secretly buy cadavers so they could get a better understanding of what was inside us. This was because the spread of christianity, people believed the whole body was needed in order to get to heaven so doctors and student could only use criminals or buy blackmarket cadavers. This certainly set back medicine hundreds of years.
I mean look no further than Copernicus, hell again the greeks had a better understanding of astronomy than we did in the 1400 due to the "dark ages". Christianity itself set us back a thousand years.
Quote from: aitm on July 21, 2015, 10:46:57 AM
Control and manipulation aside, religion has worked very hard to stigmatize serious science. Every time a new idea was presented it had to first be checked to see how it would agree with dogma. Doctors in the -300 had a better understanding of the human body that the doctors of the 17th century who had to secretly buy cadavers so they could get a better understanding of what was inside us. This was because the spread of Christianity, people believed the whole body was needed in order to get to heaven so doctors and student could only use criminals or buy black market cadavers. This certainly set back medicine hundreds of years.
I mean look no further than Copernicus, hell again the Greeks had a better understanding of astronomy than we did in the 1400 due to the "dark ages". Christianity itself set us back a thousand years.
A-...Nope not even going to argue... I should go an reflect upon my position a bit. Foucault might not be the best idol for me.
I went a bit too enthusiastic over his concept of salvaging the past for lessons. It's like mining for fool's gold, my bad.
Still you must admit, learning why one religion is successful can help prevent others from growing.
Before we go any further---what is the agreed upon definition of religion and philosophy. Life signifies nothing accept we are part of it. Why is it so important to think it has to have meaning? We live and love, we die alone, in our thoughts of loved ones. Isn't one life enough if you have lived it fully? A lot of people dream of a second life, who have never really lived this one by burying their head in delusional beliefs that restrict their ability to live life to the fullest because of the guilt they feel because they're taught what is natural is a sin. The Christian religion is a perversion of being an authentic human being by the authority of Church, and church leaders that don't know that what they think is knowledge from Scriptures is really ignorance.
Quote from: Solitary on July 21, 2015, 12:35:32 PM
Before we go any further---what is the agreed upon definition of religion and philosophy.
(Added Ethics and Nihilism because we might need it later...This was Google's definitions, feel free to play with semantics here)
Religion
Noun
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
Philosophy
Noun
The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.
+ A particular system of philosophical thought
Ethics
Noun
Moral principles that govern a person's or group's behavior.
Nihilism
Noun
The rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
Quote from: Solitary on July 21, 2015, 12:35:32 PM
Life signifies nothing accept except we are part of it. Why is it so important to think it has to have meaning? We live and love, we die alone, in our thoughts of loved ones.
It is important to have meaning in life to prevent a higher rate of suicide. Suicide often means that there is an underlying problem that can not be resolved. Some suicides are justified because we cannot change the situation or the perspective, but some are not when we can. One of the perspective changes we need is after a person becomes nihilistic.
Nihilism is not good for society because it reverts us back into primitive apes where we have not moral consideration, or perhaps worse; forward into extinction due to mass suicide.
After finding meaning in life, many atheists say that life is inherently better than death (under most circumstances). Thus it can be said that this judgement is fairly sound, since many atheist have also put a lot of time and effort into their current philosophy.
However, people in a nihilistic state often are traumatized by this cold realization, and are unable to make proper judgement calls, thus making it difficult for them to make rational decisions.
This is a problem many Christians accuse us of, and should find out a way to fix.
Quote from: Solitary on July 21, 2015, 12:35:32 PM
Isn't one life enough if you have lived it fully?
Not if you don't know how to live it fully, hence we need to educate people on how to work with us and prepare a life worth living after religion, because often an abrupt change in how one lives life causes frustration or depression, and adding nihilism to that does not help.
And so this happens because people are too scared to drop out of religion:
Quote from: Solitary on July 21, 2015, 12:35:32 PM
A lot of people dream of a second life, who have never really lived this one by burying their head in delusional beliefs that restrict their ability to live life to the fullest because of the guilt they feel because they're taught what is natural is a sin. The Christian religion is a perversion of being an authentic human being by the authority of Church, and church leaders that don't know that what they think is knowledge from Scriptures is really ignorance.
By the way, do you know of Heidegger or Sartre? "Perversion or being an authentic person" made me think of them :smile:
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 11:08:51 AM
Still you must admit, learning why one religion is successful can help prevent others from growing.
well I guess I misunderstood your OP. Is it your position that we "feel" better because of religion or that we "are" better? Is this about the psyche or our actual conditions of life? Spiritual or being able to feed oneself? You are going to have to clarify as I think points can be made in either case that religion has not done a better job even though it is by historical account the default position. We can only speculate using other smaller cultures that do not or never had the concepts of a god.
And we do know how religion became successful. They killed whomever disagreed. It really is that simple. Once you kill all those opposed it becomes simple cultural dogma enforced by fear which over time becomes not so fearful as the laws are now known and followed thus less puishment thus more acceptance.
Quote from: aitm on July 21, 2015, 02:55:03 PM
Is it your position that we "feel" better because of religion or that we "are" better? Is this about the psyche or our actual conditions of life? Spiritual or being able to feed oneself?
A bit of both, some psychotic people get a tad bit more sane with religion, but that is a very small minority. So it's that we "feel" better because of religion. It was more for the psyche that religion was developed. As I have stated before, nihilism is not good for society
Quote from: aitm on July 21, 2015, 02:55:03 PM
And we do know how religion became successful. They killed whomever disagreed. It really is that simple. Once you kill all those opposed it becomes simple cultural dogma enforced by fear which over time becomes not so fearful as the laws are now known and followed thus less punishment thus more acceptance.
Killing is part of manipulation, but should be used sparingly. Many people convert because of too much cruelty in Christianity's past. Even now, many Christians are tired of being accused as hypocritical, and this dissonance between desires and scriptures will lead many more to convert from Christianity, thus making it less acceptable.
It's hard for me to get my point across at times, feel free to ask for clarification as needed.
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 02:17:34 PM
After finding meaning in life, many atheists say that life is inherently better than death (under most circumstances). Thus it can be said that this judgement is fairly sound, since many atheist have also put a lot of time and effort into their current philosophy.
However, people in a nihilistic state often are traumatized by this cold realization, and are unable to make proper judgement calls, thus making it difficult for them to make rational decisions.
I may be mistaken, but you seem to link atheism with a nihilistic state. I don't see the link. As an atheist, I feel I have a purpose in life. I don't need a god to give it to me. Nor a religion. And understand that not all atheists think the same way. We are not like a religion in which we all think alike. Quite the opposite. One size does not fit all for atheists. All we are united about is that there is not god/gods. That's it.
You also seem to suggest that religion gives one morals. I don't get my morals from religion. The commonly agreed upon morals are actually generated from the society in which one lives. Religion may be a part of that, but the religious sector is not the sole (nor even best) judge of what is moral and what is not. It is a group effort, and it is constantly changing. As for my own morals, I developed them myself. And they are changing, as well, but not necessarily the same way as the society in which I live--and for sure not the same as any religion I am aware of. For example, I think that christianity is without morals in that one can excuse any act by finding support for it in the bible.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 21, 2015, 05:39:58 PM
I may be mistaken, but you seem to link atheism with a nihilistic state. I don't see the link. As an atheist, I feel I have a purpose in life. I don't need a god to give it to me. Nor a religion. And understand that not all atheists think the same way. We are not like a religion in which we all think alike. Quite the opposite. One size does not fit all for atheists. All we are united about is that there is not god/gods. That's it.
I'll bite the bullet and say this:
Some people can leap the gap between a meaningful religious life and a meaningful atheist life.
However, others find it difficult because there is a void where religion was that gave them meaning in life, does this clear things up?
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 21, 2015, 05:39:58 PM
You also seem to suggest that religion gives one morals. I don't get my morals from religion. The commonly agreed upon morals are actually generated from the society in which one lives. Religion may be a part of that, but the religious sector is not the sole (nor even best) judge of what is moral and what is not. It is a group effort, and it is constantly changing.
You're right, you don't actually "get" anything from religion. I never said that religion was the best judge of morality, or I'd still be catholic :eyes:
Religion... "reinforces" certain "family values" to put it best... I'm not sure how to describe it.
If anyone sees any contradiction in my thinking, do point it out.
Not only this is fun, this has become vital to me as my view on religion is at stake.
The more the merrier ^_^"
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 05:49:40 PM
I'll bite the bullet and say this:
Some people can leap the gap between a meaningful religious life and a meaningful atheist life.
However, others find it difficult because there is a void where religion was that gave them meaning in life, does this clear things up?
There are many in this generation now, in more advanced cultures, that simply didn't have that belief in a god or afterlife in the first place, or took it that its what some people believe but don't themselves, and given the growing amount of atheists and non believers each generation, I'd say more people find purpose in life without religion being the false hope it was generations before.
For those who did live by a faith, and then cast it off, they likely did/do find a void when they realize there isn't anything what was told to them by preachers and the bible. Their goal, comes to finding that purpose in life and to make it meaningful, to make the most of it and enjoy the best life has to offer.
I've grown to accept the fact, it doesn't matter that there is nothing after we die, its the fact that we are here in the first place to experience life, and to understand so much of the universe and world around us, that makes it meaningful.
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 05:49:40 PM
Religion... "reinforces" certain "family values" to put it best... I'm not sure how to describe it.
I keep hearing that term used--'family values'. I find it rather meaningless. The people who spout that usually want to control what that means, exactly. And how it is achieved. How does religion reinforce that, anyway? By do as I say and not as I do? What religion does best is hypocrisy--and family values area is no exception.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 21, 2015, 05:59:58 PM
By do as I say and not as I do?
That sounds about it XD
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 03:11:50 PM
. As I have stated before, nihilism is not good for societ
You'll have to do better than blanket statements. What kind of evidence can you provide that would give us an idea that you're close.
Quote from: aitm on July 21, 2015, 06:22:07 PM
You'll have to do better than blanket statements. What kind of evidence can you provide that would give us an idea that you're close.
No moral principles develops most often into suicide because of the fact that once people abandon religion, they don't plan ahead and give themselves a purpose to live for other than what religion had provided.
(I recognize this is a claim made by many believers, but I stand by it anyway X3)
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 06:36:01 PM
No moral principles develops most often into suicide because of the fact that once people abandon religion, they don't plan ahead and give themselves a purpose to live for other than what religion had provided.
(I recognize this is a claim made by many believers, but I stand by it anyway X3)
I have not seen this in my life--and I find it hard to swallow that a person who figures out there is no god, gets so depressed that he goes out and offs himself. I think that the effect of coming to a realization there is not god would be so freeing that it would be a time of celebration.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 21, 2015, 08:35:29 PM
I have not seen this in my life--and I find it hard to swallow that a person who figures out there is no god, gets so depressed that he goes out and offs himself. I think that the effect of coming to a realization there is not god would be so freeing that it would be a time of celebration.
I have a heavy bias on this situation. I myself, and several friends went through this sort of process, except the suicide part. I was able to recover quickly due to my friends, and we have a little group at school where we talk about ethics with other people, and I'm emailing a couple of them who seem really interested in talking a lot.
Anyway, this was how I experienced it, and I spread it around to my friends. Sure we survived, but each of my friends told me they probably wouldn't have made it were it not for each other
._.
Yeah... Gloomy life I live in.
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 08:45:50 PM
I have a heavy bias on this situation. I myself, and several friends went through this sort of process, except the suicide part. I was able to recover quickly due to my friends, and we have a little group at school where we talk about ethics with other people, and I'm emailing a couple of them who seem really interested in talking a lot.
Anyway, this was how I experienced it, and I spread it around to my friends. Sure we survived, but each of my friends told me they probably wouldn't have made it were it not for each other
._.
Yeah... Gloomy life I live in.
We are unique and we have different life experiences. I'm glad you guys had each other.
My current wife was a life long catholic--no calls herself a recovering catholic. Just prior to my meeting her, she had her 'come to jesus moment' with her church. It dawned on her just how much of a hypocrite the church was. From there the trip into atheism was gradual and steady. I've been around others who went from christian to atheist, but not all that many. Hey--whatever works, works--keep on supporting each other.
Since this isn't being relocated ... I have had to deal with two attempted suicides ... one of which was successful. Anyone contemplating offing themselves (and this most often happens with teen males and men in their 50s) needs to get professional medical assistance at once. In the medical community, we are drilled on this constantly, just as much as on CPR and AED (the other one is how to deal with rape victims).
I think that people commit suicide for lots of reasons, and become atheists for lots of reasons. It is possible, at least for a few people that their nihilism drives them to atheism. It is also possible, at least for a few people that their nihilism drives them to attempt suicide. I think it is a stretch to connect the two as a chain.
If being atheist relieves some existential pain (though it may create social problems) then it is a good thing. I suspect being a nihilist is pathological, an activist nihilist perhaps being defined as a sociopath. Human beings are normally social and optimistic ... even if there are problems with that. Being antisocial and pessimistic ... over long periods is clinical. Short "blue" periods are normal, but you have to learn to manage it, how to get thu to the light at the end of the tunnel, even if it is a train going the wrong way ;-)
Thanks for the support and critique, I needed it since my own beliefs weren't clear before I posted this.
Talking with others or writing it down, forces you to articulate. Often if you read what you wrote, a few days later, you think ... "Who was that guy!".
Quote from: Baruch on July 21, 2015, 10:16:36 PM
Often if you read what you wrote, a few days later, you think ... "Who was that guy!".
Nah, I don't contradict myself that often.
Maybe my sense of identity is more nebulous than yours ... damn that cloud storage anyways!
Quote from: Baruch on July 21, 2015, 10:16:36 PM
Talking with others or writing it down, forces you to articulate. Often if you read what you wrote, a few days later, you think ... "Who was that guy!".
I agree with this--it has worked for me. Keeping a journal is a great, great help in sorting out what one thinks about one's life and where it is going. And re-reading does cause one to shake one's head in amazement. Especially years later. :)))
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 06:36:01 PM
No moral principles develops most often into suicide because of the fact that once people abandon religion, they don't plan ahead and give themselves a purpose to live for other than what religion had provided.
(I recognize this is a claim made by many believers, but I stand by it anyway X3)
I think I have a real hard time agreeing your premise. We know of some ancient cultures where religion did not exist as far as a controlling god or even a god at all, and there is no evidence of widespread suicide.
Moral principles do not come from religion, they come from the tribe/culture/society and then those morals are adopting into their religion. We see this in the spread of Christianity, consider the food bans of Leviticus, do you think societies that relied heavily on pork or seafood would willingly agree to stop eating that? Heck no, religion bent the rules to bring in more followers to help spread their beliefs over others, more power, more money. This is why today we don't really follow the rules of our religion if they interfere with our lives. Morals come from our society, our parents and society teaches us our morals. Your premise while correct according to Christians would demand the existence of the god who supposedly passed along these "morals" not withstanding his genocidal, maniacal, psychopathical behavior.
Quote from: aitm on July 22, 2015, 10:28:09 AM
Morals come from our society, our parents and society teaches us our morals. Your premise while correct according to Christians would demand the existence of the god who supposedly passed along these "morals" not withstanding his genocidal, maniacal, psychopathical behavior.
I agree, Perhaps I was mistaken in my beliefs. Thanks for helping me figure myself out. ^_^
Quote from: dtq123 on July 21, 2015, 02:17:34 PM
(Added Ethics and Nihilism because we might need it later...This was Google's definitions, feel free to play with semantics here)
Religion
Noun
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
Philosophy
Noun
The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.
+ A particular system of philosophical thought
Ethics
Noun
Moral principles that govern a person's or group's behavior.
Nihilism
Noun
The rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless.
It is important to have meaning in life to prevent a higher rate of suicide. Suicide often means that there is an underlying problem that can not be resolved. Some suicides are justified because we cannot change the situation or the perspective, but some are not when we can. One of the perspective changes we need is after a person becomes nihilistic.
Nihilism is not good for society because it reverts us back into primitive apes where we have not moral consideration, or perhaps worse; forward into extinction due to mass suicide.
After finding meaning in life, many atheists say that life is inherently better than death (under most circumstances). Thus it can be said that this judgement is fairly sound, since many atheist have also put a lot of time and effort into their current philosophy.
However, people in a nihilistic state often are traumatized by this cold realization, and are unable to make proper judgement calls, thus making it difficult for them to make rational decisions.
This is a problem many Christians accuse us of, and should find out a way to fix.
Not if you don't know how to live it fully, hence we need to educate people on how to work with us and prepare a life worth living after religion, because often an abrupt change in how one lives life causes frustration or depression, and adding nihilism to that does not help.
And so this happens because people are too scared to drop out of religion:
By the way, do you know of Heidegger or Sartre? "Perversion or being an authentic person" made me think of them :smile:
Yes, I have read Heidegger and Sartre, who was my dads favorite philosopher. Depression has nothing to do with ones beliefs, if it did then very religious people who have been taught suicide is a sin wouldn't be depressed and commit suicide. This is a fallacy of False Cause. How many religions have had mass suicides? I can't think of any atheist mass suicides. I personally don't think people are afraid to drop out of religion for the most part, I would say it has more to do with not being able to let go of loved ones that have died. I have had a long and eventful life after being an atheist from the age of six. I have been severely depressed by loss of a loved one early in life, and many since, but I have never thought of suicide when I was, or saw any meaning in life accept survival. The only times I have thought of suicide was when in unbearable pain from body injury, and after botched surgery. In fact, I'm happier now than I have ever been. Having said that, I still believe death is favorable to unrelenting pain and suffering, even though in concentration camps people clawed their way out of burning buildings because they still had the will to live. Thinking of Nietzsche? I do believe we all have been better to never have been born considering how all our lives end tragically, even at its best. I will fight for my life until I can't fight any longer, because it is the only one I have, and as long as I can get pleasure from life in so many fantastic ways. I life's worth infinite, but not sacred in any way. Good post by the way!
Quote from: Solitary on July 22, 2015, 11:18:28 AM
Yes, I have read Heidegger and Sartre, who was my dads favorite philosopher. Depression has nothing to do with ones beliefs, if it did then very religious people who have been taught suicide is a sin wouldn't be depressed and commit suicide. This is a fallacy of False Cause. How many religions have had mass suicides? I can't think of any atheist mass suicides. I personally don't think people are afraid to drop out of religion for the most part, I would say it has more to do with not being able to let go of loved ones that have died. I have had a long and eventful life after being an atheist from the age of six. I have been severely depressed by loss of a loved one early in life, and many since, but I have never thought of suicide when I was, or saw any meaning in life accept survival. The only times I have thought of suicide was when in unbearable pain from body injury, and after botched surgery. In fact, I'm happier now than I have ever been. Having said that, I still believe death is favorable to unrelenting pain and suffering, even though in concentration camps people clawed their way out of burning buildings because they still had the will to live. Thinking of Nietzsche? I do believe we all have been better to never have been born considering how all our lives end tragically, even at its best. I will fight for my life until I can't fight any longer, because it is the only one I have, and as long as I can get pleasure from life in so many fantastic ways. I life's worth infinite, but not sacred in any way. Good post by the way!
I am heavily biased by my personal experience, but I concede that many atheists often go between religious and atheist life seamlessly. Thanks for the input
See DT, I think your thinking, imo, is backwards. IF indeed there is no god, then the reality and inescapable truth is this is all the time you get. The brief nanosecond that the universe allows. There is nothing afterwards. Now for those with a religious background (and even for those without) this is really kind of a depressing and sad state of affairs we have here. Looking back at all the billions who have died, some for glory, some killed for mere fun, billions gone, the very most without even a chance to taste what love feels like, or true friendship, or the understanding that you are part of a grand cosmic somethingorother, that really doesn't even know you exist and doesn't care, but for it, you get this one brief moment.
What then, is the difference if you kill yourself now or when you are 90? Is this so miserable that nothing is considered better? We are surrounded by billions and billions of smaller life forms that have just as much right to their brief moment as we do, but we kill them off by the millions either by chemicals or simply walking outdoors. We humans think we are owed something, that there MUST be something out there that makes us better than ants or squirrels or oak trees. But we are not. There are insects whose entire life is 2 days. I certainly hope they are not aware of that eh?
Breath deep, this is life, it will be gone soon enough. For the time you have, laugh, love, live.
I'm not one of them, even after horrendous death defying events that have happened to me. I'm always happy. If I'm suffering for any reason I'm happy it will end sooner or later. And if I'm not, I'm happy I am not suffering and can enjoy life. I have never been a believer in real magic, and am a skeptical by nature of any claims without sound evidence and logic, even in science that has evidence and belief based on interpretation of the evidence that may be bogus because of confirmation bias. We are very complicated beings with intelligence and rationality, along with irrational emotions to contend with. All my major decisions in life have been based on my irrational self. When I buy a car I don't buy it to be practical, if I did I would get a used Taxi cab in perfect running condition. My car now is an S2000 Club racer set up for racing from the factory with only two seats, hardly what is based on rationality. I'm a hedonists, even if all my pleasures in life have been death defying, even a lot of jobs I've had working 300 feet in the air with no safety equipment walking on steel covered with ice. At that time, if you used safety equipment, you would have been laughed at as being a coward. I have a lust for life, not death.