http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/06/26/teacher-sued-after-punishing-second-grader-for-being-an-atheist/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/06/26/teacher-sued-after-punishing-second-grader-for-being-an-atheist/)
In a nutshell:
- Atheist 2nd grader is asked by classmate which church he attends.
- Atheist 2nd grader says he doesn't believe in god but its ok if she (his classmate) does
- Classmate gets upset at this and starts crying
- Teacher punishes Atheist 2nd grader for making classmate upset and tells him not to speak to other classmates during lunch for next 3 days
- Atheist 2nd grader does not understand what he did wrong nor why his classmates not dislike him/want to alienate him which now makes school more stressful for him.
- Atheist mom sues 2nd graders teacher over it
I'm all for a good lawsuit when it serves the purpose of righting a wrong. Preventing a future wrong is also a nice benefit, but righting the initial wrong or at the very least not making the initial wrong worse is the most important thing IMO.
So when we get right down to it, the problem here is that an atheist student outed himself and suffered isolation/alienation from his classmates as a result. For the life of me, I cannot see how suing the teacher is going to improve that situation. It can only make that situation worse. It could quite possibly make it much worse, as in creating a social stigma that follows said 2nd grader through most of his next 10 grades. 'Don't talk to him, his mom might sue you'.
Sometimes I have to wonder what exactly people are thinking when they pull shit like this.[/list][/list]
I saw that news story too. I agree that people have gotten incessantly sue-happy, but what would right the situation? Sensitivity training? An apology? Just the teacher's reaction to him seems to have caused him stigma. And it's second grade: 8 year olds don't have memories that long.
I'd confront the teacher head on and demand an apology for her actions, and threaten her if not I'd go to the board of education.
I wouldn't involve the courts, but would expect some sensitivity training. That said if its a school steeped in religious teachings, I might just pull my kid out of the school if they punish him for not believing in god.
Also I'd clip the little girl round the ear and tell her to grow a pair because the world outsides gonna be a lot rougher on her.. okay maybe not, BUT MAYBE SO.
Quote from: TomFoolery on June 28, 2015, 08:43:47 PM
I saw that news story too. I agree that people have gotten incessantly sue-happy, but what would right the situation?
Well I'm not a parent nor a certified teacher so maybe I'm not qualified to say. But I'd like to think I'd start with an in person one on one with the teacher and possibly other staff voicing my concerns about my child being made to feel ostracized and see what the teacher might be willing to do to rectify the situation such as a short direct talk with all students about what atheists are and how they're fundamentally no different than anyone else etc and how treating any atheist students any differently will not be tolerated in this school and so on and so forth.
According to what I'm reading, an in person meeting never happened.
I think maybe this story resonates with me because I spent most of my grade school years as a social outcast. I landed on my feet in the end but its not something I'd wish on my worst enemy. So for the life of me, I just cannot see how doing anything which could make the child more of an outcast helps the situation in any way shape or form. This sort of thing really makes me want to scream when I read it. How is this kid EVER going to have anything resembling a normal social life in school after this? You may as well paint a scarlet letter S on his forehead.
Also I say this as an individual who is at least somewhat well skilled in being able to find ways to motivate individuals to not want to do certain over the line behaviors/acts without needing to sue them to get it done. Ok so maybe that just makes me good management material but geez Louise it ain't exactly rocket science to be able to motivate people not to do stupid shit again once you call them out on it. I'm quite sure you could make this teachers life miserable enough to motivate her to want to handle atheist situations with kit gloves in the future without needing to sue her or otherwise turn this situation into a news event that will end up following your child through the rest of his grade school education. For god sake, take a breath and think a little before you act. I really want to go find these people and hug the kid and then slap the mother.
Just another reason why I want to start an atheist private school. Meh.
Quote from: dtq123 on June 28, 2015, 09:22:41 PM
Just another reason why I want to start an atheist private school. Meh.
In certain parts of the country, this would be no big deal. In other parts, I'm pretty sure you'd find yourself in a nearly constant legal battle for even trying it.
Quote from: Johan on June 28, 2015, 09:11:27 PM
According to what I'm reading, an in person meeting never happened.
I don't think any recent generation is really equipped for direct confrontation or conflict resolution, as in, sit down with someone and say "Hey, I didn't like it when you did this. What gives?"
Instead the reaction is to put them on blast on social media or to complain to their boss/parent/teacher and get them in trouble. More severe reactions include involving the news media and suing.
I don't agree at all.
The teacher is the authority in the class. Instead of making an explanation and telling the child that there is nothing to cry or be offended about people's personal convictions -which are vastly different- she made a big deal out of it AND chose to punish the child who didn't do anything wrong.
She successfuly taught christian children that
-they can throw a tantrum about other individuals' choices, opinions, convictions, beliefs
-it is their 'right' to be offended by anything different than theirs,
ALSO confirmed that if they do it, they can get their way; WIN and others will be punished for it; that formal authority is with them.
She didn't just teach kids that it is OK to discriminate, alienate people for what they think and look down on others different than them and that they can also carry this to a 'formal level' via authority; but that it is also the fucking RULE. She deserves to be prosecuted AND she is the one opening a door to future unnecessary 'lawsuits' we see every day around the world made by religious people about HUGE bullshit they do not even have the right to criticise in a formal level.
Basically what was a simple problem between 2 children in a class has been made a big issue by an incompetent teacher who cannot act professionally, but I will also claim that probably she is a christian and there is a deliberate bullshit there. Either way she could have fixed it and chose not to, but act according to her own beliefs which became an agenda by her act. If she cannot deal with a conflict between 2 year graders and so ready to spread hatred to little children and teach intolerance, she should not be teaching. And just for what she is teaching, YES she deserves to be prosecuted.
Teachers are not just professionals, 'teaching' unfortunately is NOT just some job. It's also a 'public-service', it is also where you make people. Not by the curriculum, but by your behaviours and your acts in the class. It's very important to say out loud some very basic things to children. They need to hear them. That is how you make them conscious about anything.
I don't have any experience with teaching little children, but I have little with young adults and I was just 6-8 years older than them at the time. If you are doing your job right, you are a 'god' in the class and you can teach anything, explain anything. That's why teaching is very difficult and tricky. You need to build a trust and respect, -doesn't matter if they are 5 or 25, it works the same- make everything a subject -no matter what it is - and alienate them from even their own voiced opinions, watch what you say or wear, be conscious about your body language. Students need to get that you are on their team in that area. Only then you can play a very powerful Switzerland and what you say becomes 'principle'. And they start to listen to you and even learn. Even if they don't agree with you, they remember what you said, develop a consciousness of what has passed then and there. It becomes a 'category' for them.
In the univ I have worked, we were in a position that we needed to show pics of western art pieces that included full nudity or in case of contemporary art, sometimes pornographic pieces to young people who came from obscure, very conservative areas of a relatively secular muslim country. Make them study ancient western mythology and beliefs, judaism, christianity, make them read from old and new testament so to match with the general western iconography. It's far more difficult to deal with people at at that age because they are already shaped. They gave every kind of reaction and when you make them understand what is going on, there is a surprise for everyone contrary to the common belief. They learn to accept and even learn the subject.
And the general result? I have observed this for almost a decade that among those young people with very conservative, ignorant backgrounds the amount of people who actually learned, respected the course material is higher than the relatively more secular city kids with any kind of background. There are many factors at play in this, but the most important one is the attitude of the person attempting to do the 'teaching' and the realtionship she/he developes with them. Otherwise, what you are teaching doesn't mean shit. Because it is not the material, it is the teaching; the teacher.
If you are not an idealist, you are automatically a bad teacher. Yeah, it sucks, but that's the job.
I agree what the teacher did was absolutely wrong and damaging on many levels. I further agree the teacher ought to suffer consequences because of it and lawsuits can be a good way to do that. But they are far from the only way. And when you consider that a lawsuit, regardless of the outcome, will likely cause a stigma which will follow this child through the rest of his grade school education, I think it makes suing a poor choice.
As you said, school is where kids go to become people. This kid is going to be far more of an outcast as a result of this suit than he ever would have been if the whole thing had ended with him being kept from talking to his classmates during lunch for 3 days. Being an outcast in school is not something that anyone should ever wish for.
Quote from: Johan on July 01, 2015, 07:09:18 AM
I agree what the teacher did was absolutely wrong and damaging on many levels. I further agree the teacher ought to suffer consequences because of it and lawsuits can be a good way to do that. But they are far from the only way. And when you consider that a lawsuit, regardless of the outcome, will likely cause a stigma which will follow this child through the rest of his grade school education, I think it makes suing a poor choice.
As you said, school is where kids go to become people. This kid is going to be far more of an outcast as a result of this suit than he ever would have been if the whole thing had ended with him being kept from talking to his classmates during lunch for 3 days.
I understand what you mean. I actually agree with you in principle. And I also know that in the US this 'lawsuit' thing is an issue, a hyped up industry and how rdiciulous it gets. My disagreement is about the the specific subject that is carried to the court. (Mainly two of them: how nonbelievers and people who don't fit heterosexual norms are treated. They are basics of identity of a person. )
Let's look at from a wider angle. What is our biggest problem with all kinds of religious people and their culture? Or better, what is the root of the problem with religion that comes up in countless different ways?
Entitlement. That the idiotic nature of their positions build a delusion that extends to an identity -a collective one at that- to define itself and anyone included as the 'City Hall'. The ultimate structure of the society. That's the reason behind the behaviour of that teacher or some other batshit crazy fucker screaming we should kill gay people. There is no difference between some extremist trying to kill 'inifdels' and punshing a child, isolating him for saying that he is an atheist IN PRINCIPLE. If you remove the law, given enough time, that teacher -and people like her- easily develop into some 'things' who can comfortably say out loud why nonbelivers and gay people should be executed and even act on it under suitable circumstances. No, it is not exaggerated. That's how religion and religious societies work. It's jsut a matter of time from here to there under the required circumstances. One learned not to do that because there is a law over her head where she lives and she knows she'll pay for that heavily if she does that. Other doesn't live anywhere tha the law can fight with this because state is not powerful enough to enforce. He says and does it. Het gets punished, but only when it ends with death and mostly not suffer consequences at most times. (I don't mean Sharia ruled countries, I mean places like I live. They don't have any law as in real sense.)
So in my opinion, it is right to carry these specific issues to the court. Because people should see over and over again that LAW is the only City Hall in a secular state and there are consequences they need to consider when they act in a certain way... Not their church or mosque or temple or their tiny bigot skulls. The secular LAW. Think or believe whatever you want. Do not mess up with others in public space, do not exploit your authority over little kids. If you do, you'll pay for it.
This is why, it is NEVER just a wedding cake. Or it's not just 2 kids messing up with each other when the teacher chose to act the way she did when it comes to these two main subjects. It's the 'zero ground' that should be made issues about. There should always be an ongoing battle about these issues. Always. There is no such thing as a final phase or 'look, we have done it'. When you start to see it that way, you are screwed.
Johan, in your country as far as I observed, the people do take LAW seriously, they use it for themselves good or bad, they are 'afraid' of the state and 'respect' its power when it comes down to it. Take it from someone who lives in a country that doesn't happen EVEN with the laws suitable for it. You'd take all those idiotic lawsuits at once rather than to have the other way.
That's actually the first thing someone like me, someone from a country like I live in notices visiting the US and also Europe. People are 'afraid' of the state and 'respect' the laws and rules as much as they can do it, even with tiny things. Exceptions do not matter, it is the rule enough. Because the state is very powerful and this is one of the reasons how it gets its power; people 'trust' and use it; and therefore be able approach to some sort of 'equality' good or bad or at least the idea of it.
:E English doesn't agree with me today. I corrected that 5 times ffs.
Children mostly learn by example. So what example did this teacher teach? It's OK to punish those you disagree with, or prejudice is OK based on religious dogma, or it's OK to hurt people who believe different than you do? Orall of the above?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 01, 2015, 08:12:47 AM
I understand what you mean. I actually agree with you in principle. And I also know that in the US this 'lawsuit' thing is an issue, a hyped up industry and how rdiciulous it gets. My disagreement is about the the specific subject that is carried to the court. (Mainly two of them: how nonbelievers and people who don't fit heterosexual norms are treated. They are basics of identity of a person. )
Ok not for nothing but this incident has absolutely NOTHING NADA ZIP to do with mistreatment of homosexuals. Nothing. Nada. Zip. And there is no possible outcome of this lawsuit that would ever have any benefit as far as treatment of homosexuals is concerned.
QuoteThat the idiotic nature of their positions build a delusion that extends to an identity -a collective one at that- to define itself and anyone included as the 'City Hall'. The ultimate structure of the society. That's the reason behind the behaviour of that teacher or some other batshit crazy fucker screaming we should kill gay people.
Annnnd just like that, you veered off into crazy town and totally lost me. Skipping ahead then...
QuoteJohan, in your country as far as I observed, the people do take LAW seriously, they use it for themselves good or bad, they are 'afraid' of the state and 'respect' its power when it comes down to it.
Well I don't know exactly what your experience is so I'm reluctant to argue. But I will just say that I think your observations of my country are a bit less than accurate. People most certainly do have respect for most laws here. But I don't anyone who is 'afraid' of the state. Not one person.