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I hate the church and it's repressions and manipulations and it's horrible, stupid lies. I would hate God too, but the old twat doesn't exist.

You only have to think about the genocide and horrific cruelty of the Old and New Testaments , with it's rapes and murders and stake burning and incest and threats and rampant psychopathy ... and behold, the Koran is a similar pile of bloodthirsty excrement.

I am angry. They can get the fuck out with their God and his genocidal, baby killing; flesh burning eternal hell-fire antics and his constant craving for flattery and praise. And they can fuck off saying that Jesus died to save me.  No he didn't.  Why would I need saving 2,000 years before I was born? And what sin did I commit 2,000 years before I was born that required redemption?

And then there's the flying of planes into towers and the stoning a 12 year old girl to death because she was gang raped; and the killing of bloggers in the Middle East for expressing their atheism. And then there's Hitler and Rwanda and bugger knows what all.

It is sickening, this sadistic drivel, and people have no business believing it, never mind insisting that others do likewise.

On a scale of 1-10, my anger against this shit is a 10.

I should calm myself.

What would you mark yourself as in the rage stakes (if you're angry at all, that is". :wtff:  I've stuck a poll on about this.,

Mine is zero for the religious that use it for good, but for the hypocrites, ones that take it so serious they are willing to die or kill for it, I'm off the chart.

I'm assuming 1 is beatnik hippie and 10 is nuclear rage? I'm probably about a 2. Maybe less than. I'm a cheerful atheist. I don't see the point in being pissed off all the time. I get mad when people use religion to create injustice, but just generally in my every day, I'm probably the least militant atheist I've ever met.

GOD DAMNIT!!!!! WTF KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT!!????

:lol:

Quote from: Solitary on June 23, 2015, 05:29:50 PM
Mine is zero for the religious that use it for good, but for the hypocrites, ones that take it so serious they are willing to die or kill for it, I'm off the chart.

pretty much this.

While I'm against the indoctrination the church represents, if you find rare cases of churches doing good for people, doing food drives of the local homeless, or having priests who allow for same sex weddings, I'm fine with them, because they seem like human beings.

The ones who use the church as a method of control, to spread his agenda for hate, wealth, control, cruelty and the like, if there made up bullshit about heaven and hell really existed, the fact they think themselves worthy candidates to be allowed into their heaven is just the greatest sense of irony and cognitive dissonance

It occurs to me that if God existed, we would have to kill him. He would have to go the way of Sadam Hussain and Bin Laden.

I actually was thinking about whether I'm an angry atheist earlier today while watching a YouTube video. I'm more Happy Humanist than Angry Atheist.

I am an 11 when thinking about the hierarchy of the religions.  But the people, for the most part, are just people trying to get along. 

Meh... my anger tends to be more internalized. I'm probably about a 5 or so. I deal with the religious in my daily life because I have to.

I feel angry toward the religious community because:

- They've made women's health ridiculously harder for low-income to get.
- Gays and lesbians are not allowed to marry in my state.
- They systematically try to replace science with religious ideals in classrooms - even colleges.
- They brainwash children into accepting their religious beliefs and claim the child always had a choice.
- They have a distorted view of morality and rarely realize it.
- They are against abortion but are for the death penalty.
- They help others so they can achieve their reward (heaven).
- They demand respect for their religion even though it is intellectually dishonest.
- They have dragged out every single civil rights movement the U.S. (and possibly other countries) has had.
- They focus so intently on their reward in the afterlife that they're trashing the planet.

The list goes on. Every time someone says they are a Christian, I cringe inwardly. At best, their ability to reason is childish and at worst, they may choose to hate me because a book says they should. Their doublethink always keeps me a little on edge.

It is a matter of local socialization custom.  Americans could extend hands at political rallies, but they don't do that much anymore.  Americans could extend hands at union rallies, but they don't do that anymore.  Americans could extend hands at men's clubs like Freemasons, but we don't do that anymore.  Pretty much all post-family socialization occurs in the workplace, the school, and the church.  Church is usually where you meet people you don't meet at work or at school ... it has the greatest reach across family lines.  So it is very hard to keep politics out of the church, because politics is simply citizens acting in the public sphere.  So for the un-aware ... church is often where they meet people of similar political persuasion ... and usually racial, social and cultural persuasion.  It is where our tribes and sub-tribes are formed ... but maybe not your sub-tribe.  So if you don't like American politics, or society, or culture then you will naturally dislike the church, because that is where things are cooked up ... over potluck dinners ;-)  Jefferson was totally wrong about America's future.

Perhaps Britain is different, maybe they get all their adult socialization done at the pub ... which is not like an American bar.

PS - my anger about piety is a five ... because piety is the worst thing a religious person can do ... it is blatant hypocrisy.  So I am an angry theist ... toward theists ... because they give theism a bad name.  I give minority positions like atheism much more slack.

No, it doesn't do me or the world any good to be angry about it.

If you take away the brainwashing of innocent minds (children),  I'm probably a 2 or 3.

When the indoctrination-of-children  factor comes into play,  I'm a solid 10.

SkyChief ... do you discuss or do politics in front of your children?  Then you make me a solid 10 too ;-)  Being naked in public, is less pornographic than politics ... and less ugly, not matter what you look like with your clothes off.  But I will chose to agree with Shiranu.

The rampaging hypocrisy, the deliberate cherrypicking of an ancient text to support modern bigotries, the expectation of special privileges because they believe in something unprovable, those all move my needle towards ten.  The people at work, some of whom got into social work as an extension of their beliefs (and co-workers' beliefs seem much more towards the progressive end than the fundamentalist, from what I've seen), they move the needle towards zero.  Where my number is depends on which side of the coin I've most recently had to deal with.

trdsf - I am with you there.  Fortunately there is little discussion of religion at home or at work for me.  Traditionally, religion, sex and politics ... maybe in that order of degradation ... are to be kept in the closet.  But even gay folks are out of the closet now, at least on the Internet ;-)  America (assuming you live in the same country as I do) is a very frustrating place to live in now (maybe always has been, just ask the Indians and Blacks).  It is no wonder so many of us suffer from high blood pressure.  Your experiences mirrors mine ... in terms of irritation followed by relief.  There is no Biblical rule about scratching an itch.

Why are people here?  To help each other.  Why do they need help?  Because reality sucks.  Why do I dislike G-d ... because reality shouldn't suck.  But without G-d, nothing would exist.  And if things didn't suck, we would be less motivate to help each other.  If people still choose not to help people (and plants, animals etc) then the reason why those people need help ... is they need a proctologist.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 07:16:42 AM
Why are people here?  To help each other.

People are typically here because their parents had sex and chose not to abort. We are not born with a purpose beyond our own self-preservation. Helping other people is a construct fashioned by evolution because the less helpful assholes didn't produce as many children as those with more altruistic tendencies. 

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 07:16:42 AMWhy do they need help?  Because reality sucks.

We need help because our goals often exceed our personal limitations. It helps trading in favours with others because then we can achieve our goals. Others are encouraged to accept the trade because they benefit in return.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 07:16:42 AMWhy do I dislike G-d ... because reality shouldn't suck.

Dictating how reality should be seems pointless. Furthermore, human beings aren't the only creature to have suffer due to reality being as it is. Every living creature on this planet since abiogenesis has suffered and died. If anything, there's strong evidence in support of the idea that reality should suck, and indeed, does suck for living things.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 07:16:42 AMBut without G-d, nothing would exist. 

Evidence please.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 07:16:42 AM
And if things didn't suck, we would be less motivate to help each other. 

If things didn't suck, then there'd be no need to help each other. People who are happy have no need to help others - especially when everyone else is happy as well.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 07:16:42 AM
If people still choose not to help people (and plants, animals etc) then the reason why those people need help ... is they need a proctologist.

You lost me.

I know you're trying to be an ambassador for your religion, but it isn't purely attitude that atheists have a problem with. Rather, atheists dislike religion because it distorts the critical thinking faculties of the mind, and can corrupt morality without the theist being aware. A person who cannot reason properly and whose morality has been compromised is a potentially dangerous individual. Sociopaths and psychopaths are prone to faulty logic and lack empathy - just to put things in perspective.

What religion do you think I am an ambassador for?  Most Jewish folks are atheists.  Most Jewish folks are freethinkers as well.  Though I will admit to only being partly Jewish ;-)  And I feel no shame concerning any of my ancestors, including the Gentile ones.  I am not proselytizing.

As I see it, you have a bleak view of human life ... but that is your problem, not mine.

You are assuming that atheists are the chosen people, so to speak.  I don't claim that for the people I relate to.  But are you Jewish too?

I find that poor thinking ability and immoral behavior ... pretty much covers the spectrum of human beings, there are no Illuminati somewhere, who are free of it.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 01:17:06 PM
What religion do you think I am an ambassador for?  Most Jewish folks are atheists.  Most Jewish folks are freethinkers as well.  Though I will admit to only being partly Jewish ;-)  And I feel no shame concerning any of my ancestors, including the Gentile ones.  I am not proselytizing.

As I see it, you have a bleak view of human life ... but that is your problem, not mine.

You are assuming that atheists are the chosen people, so to speak.  I don't claim that for the people I relate to.  But are you Jewish too?

I find that poor thinking ability and immoral behavior ... pretty much covers the spectrum of human beings, there are no Illuminati somewhere, who are free of it.

What do you mean with " most Jewish folks are atheists and freethinkers ?"  Are you saying most of the   Worldwide( 14-18 million)  jews are cultural jews or secular jews ?

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 01:17:06 PM
What religion do you think I am an ambassador for?  Most Jewish folks are atheists.  Most Jewish folks are freethinkers as well.  Though I will admit to only being partly Jewish ;-)  And I feel no shame concerning any of my ancestors, including the Gentile ones.  I am not proselytizing.

Sigh... when you say:

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 07:16:42 AM
But without G-d, nothing would exist.

It infers that you believe in a deity, since it is stated that nothing would exist without one.

Since an existence of any deity has yet to be substantiated, then it is illogical to not only conclude that one exists but to go one unsubstantiated claim further and say that everything is dependant on the existence of such a being.

I'm not concerned with any shame on your part and or your ancestral ties - only in the ability to think critically. Changing to a different topic meant to indulge in emotional appeal is irrelevant in this particular topic since we are discussing logic - not emotion.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 01:17:06 PM
As I see it, you have a bleak view of human life ... but that is your problem, not mine.

A person who seeks to understand reality as it is rather than jump through the hoops of rationalizing in order to satisfy an emotional insecurity is not someone who has a bleak view. Rather, this is someone more attuned to life and more inclined to value their time living than someone who feels that life is somehow insufficient thus works toward paradise in the afterlife and/or feel the need to have a fabricated all powerful father figure.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 01:17:06 PM
You are assuming that atheists are the chosen people, so to speak.  I don't claim that for the people I relate to.  But are you Jewish too?

No, I'm not making the assumption atheists are the chosen people (chosen by who, I wonder?). I've merely stated that those conditioned by religion are more prone to flaws in critical thinking and compromised morality. These statements have their basis in fact - such as how religious scientists can hold two contradicting views rather than use Occam's Razor because one of the choices happen to be the religion they were raised in and everyday good people tell other people they are going to a place of eternal torment and torture from which there is no escape - even children.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 01:17:06 PM
I find that poor thinking ability and immoral behavior ... pretty much covers the spectrum of human beings, there are no Illuminati somewhere, who are free of it.

I made no claims to being immune from poor thinking and immorality - rather that we should be striving to improve our critical thinking skills and work toward a better moral standard. We do not need religion to do this - and nor should we. Religion is nothing more than a grand delusion carried over from ancient times before humanity realized the benefits of scientific inquiry.

So, let's not paint atheists as those deserving special privileges or who live a bleak existence. Not only is it not true, but it is such a worn out stereotype. If you're concerned with learning more about reality as it is, then we have something in common - if not, then don't be surprised if whatever substitute you may use in its place doesn't interest me.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 06:43:52 AM
SkyChief ... do you discuss or do politics in front of your children?  Then you make me a solid 10 too ;-)  Being naked in public, is less pornographic than politics ... and less ugly, not matter what you look like with your clothes off.  But I will chose to agree with Shiranu.

I frequently discuss politics with my children.  But they're in their 20's now, so that cannot be construed as indoctrination in any way.

Im not sure I understand the Being naked in public analogy... What the heck does that have to do with being angry with piousness?

I was trying to convey the injustice to (all the) children who are brainwashed into religion when they are too young to understand spirituality.

The baggage and negativity that often goes hand-in-hand with religion can take many years to overcome.  I know.  As a child, I was one of the broken ones. 

SkyChief ... I am sorry if you were abused by your care givers.  Emotional or physical abuse is hard to justify ... and I certainly don't enjoy being the recipient.  I hope you can find healing in whatever environment you find supportive and caring.  We all want that for ourselves and others (if we aren't crazy).  If your children are adults ... you are less likely to injure them by discussing politics or anything else, because they will have already realized that parents are crazy PITA.  They have to have their own marriage and children, before they wise up.  As for the rest, I am afraid that the circular posting we do has mixed things up ... some comments apply to what is immediately above, others apply to the original topic.  The "naked in public" is a tie in to the Eden story of course, and my anger with piousness is different from other posters.  I am no proponent of Jesus camp, or the equivalent in other religions, and I believe that children would be raised with a loose reign.  My daughter is also an adult, and she is the way she is, mostly because of what she decided for herself.  Though in fact, she took after her mother more than me.  BTW - I didn't understand spirituality until I was over 50.  This is why the rabbis say, Jewish men shouldn't study Kabbalah, until they are thoroughly orthodox Jewish, and over the age of 40.

Aletheia - you make many points, so I will only respond briefly for now.  In this particular case, I was using the mention of deity as a rhetorical device, not as a claim to metaphysics ... but of course short of scholarly impedimenta ... it isn't possible to convey that without a lot more composition.  The mere mention of a deity, let along the mere mention of a deity as a rhetorical device ... is not proselytizing ... it is mere honesty and integrity.  If I said (and I say this rhetorically) that "the way you think and live really stinks, and that you would be much better thinking and living like I do" ... that would be proselytizing aka marketing.  Whether my inducement were honest or not.  And I am not seeking popularity ... it surprises me if I get any notice at all.  On the rest, it would be best to let it pass for now.

Leo - excellent question, but more appropriate for the Jewish section.  So I will only answer briefly here.  For anyone who considers themselves Jewish, what is a Jew is of the highest importance, unfortunately.  This is because of the tribalism (cultural or genetic).  Yes, by any honest standard, most Jews who self identify as such, are secular or atheist.  This is not much discussed in public because this is embarrassing for Jewish people ... it seems disloyal ... so many maintain ties, for family reasons, social reasons, political reasons ... and the question of modern Israel ... but this has nothing to do with any god, including the god of the Torah (OT).  And the orthodox Jews hope in that context, to eventually re-socialize those who are fallen away religiously, but not culturally.  That is where Jewish evangelism is focused, not on Gentiles.  Though the cultural part is less than it seems ... much Jewish food is just Polish gentile food cooked kosher.

I am. But scale changes all the time.

Quote from: Baruch on June 24, 2015, 08:13:44 PM
SkyChief ... I am sorry if you were abused by your care givers.  Emotional or physical abuse is hard to justify ... and I certainly don't enjoy being the recipient.   

My daughter is also an adult, and she is the way she is, mostly because of what she decided for herself.  Though in fact, she took after her mother more than me.  BTW - I didn't understand spirituality until I was over 50.  This is why the rabbis say, Jewish men shouldn't study Kabbalah, until they are thoroughly orthodox Jewish, and over the age of 40.

I didn't mean to imply I was 'abused'.  My parents were very loving people who provided the best they could with what they could. The problem was, they were believers;  and in their judgement, it was required that the 3 of us kids (myself, my younger brother an sister) attend their church and worship their god.

This was never an issue with my siblings.  But it certainly was for me.  I was born atheist and dreaded going to church. It all seemed so creepy to me.

Finally, I mustered the courage to tell my father that I didn't believe in gods.  I feared some form of punishment, but instead, he told me if I didn't believe in gods, then there wasn't much sense in me attending the services.    So I was excused.   *phew*

Not surprisingly,  33 years later,   my sister is still a devout believer,  my brother is  solidly 'on-the-fence' agnostic, and I remain hard atheist.

Its good that your daughter was afforded the dignity to decide her own religious beliefs.  This is worthy of the greatest respect (as a parent).

Well as a parent, I would love to dictate the beliefs and practices of my children, for their own good of course ;-)  But I realized early on I wasn't up for that, and neither was she ;-)).  She has taken after her mother more than I would like, but that is not surprising with girls, so I can't object too much.  And her mother was a preacher and so my daughter was a PK.  As a Jewish mystic myself, I just had to sigh and let reality take its own course without my god-like intervention ;-)

So your mom and dad were pretty cool after all.  Good for them.  I am an only child, but I have heard that siblings can be amazingly different.

And yes, the whole dead rising thing is creepy, particularly if you have the literal dead guy on a cross thing in front of you.  In other cultures, this could be interpreted in unauthorized ways ... the Pueblo Indians took the cross to be their grasshopper god, the Vikings took the cross to be their Thor's Hammer, and the Irish took the "circle behind the cross" to be their Stone Age religion of Newgrange.

QuoteAre you an angry atheist?

I'd say I'm more of a mildly depressed and somewhat disgruntled atheist.

Why is it assumed if an atheists doesn't believe in the supernatural they are angry? The more I think about this question the angrier I get because it's saying theist aren't angry because they do believe in the supernatural, and somehow atheists are just atheists because they are angry at a mythical God which is really arrogant, self righteous, condescending, and high and mighty for someone to think this. Atheists don't think we are special, just that theists are wrong to believe in the supernatural when there is no reliable evidence to support it.  :fU:

Solitary ... not all religious folks are alike, not all non-religious folks are alike.  But I do know one atheist, who is that way, because he was brought up in the Church of Scotland, but when his little daughter died, and G-d didn't save her ... he got really angry about it.  That may not be your experience ... you may come to atheism thru philosophical considerations or native personality ... and not be angry at all ... even happy and well adjusted.  Of course some religious folks are happy and well adjusted .. but I am not one of them ;-(

Not at all, I am a very happy atheist in a theist family and theist environment.

I see your avatar, that you have Buddha on the brain ;-)

I'm a fairly happy atheist, because there is so much to laugh to!