Police believe the murder was racially motivated. (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/us/church-attacked-in-charleston-south-carolina.html?_r=0)
QuoteA white gunman opened fire Wednesday evening at a historic black church in downtown Charleston, S.C., before fleeing, the police said, and nine people were killed.
The Charleston Police Department said the shooting occurred at the Emanuel A.M.E. Church about 9 p.m.
Officials did not release information about possible victims. Chief Greg Mullen said the police believed it was a hate crime.
The police described the gunman as a clean-shaven white man about 21 years old who was wearing a gray sweatshirt, bluejeans and Timberland boots.
Around 10:45 p.m., police officers at the scene drew their weapons and later escorted a man in handcuffs, who appeared to match that description. But officials said later that they were still searching for the gunman.
Reporters said families of the possible victims were arriving at the scene.
A reporter at the scene late Wednesday said the police pushed back members of the news media after receiving a bomb threat.
Helicopters with searchlights circled overhead, and a group of pastors knelt and prayed across the street.
“The question is, ‘Why God?’,†a man wearing a shirt bearing the name of the Empowerment Missionary Baptist Church said during the prayer.
The church is one of the nation’s oldest black churches. The current pastor, the Rev. Clementa C. Pinckney, is also a state senator. It was not clear if he was at the church at the time of the shooting. The Gothic Revival-style church was built in 1891 and is considered a historically significant building, according to the National Park Service.
The congregation was formed after black members of the Methodist Episcopal Church in the city broke away “over disputed burial ground,†according to the website of the National Park Service. In 1822, one of the church’s co-founders, Denmark Vesey, tried to foment a slave rebellion in Charleston, the church’s website says. The plot was foiled by authorities and 35 people were executed, including Mr. Vesey.
The church houses the oldest black congregation south of Baltimore, the Park Service said.
Gov. Nikki R. Haley said in a statement that she and her family are praying for the victims.
“While we do not yet know all of the details, we do know that we’ll never understand what motivates anyone to enter one of our places of worship and take the life of another,†the governor said. “Please join us in lifting up the victims and their families with our love and prayers.â€
Late Wednesday, the campaign staff of Jeb Bush, who is seeking the Republican nomination for president, said he was canceling appearances planned for Thursday in Charleston because of the shooting.
I have a lot of things to say, but I think I'll go with the not-dickish one: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THE PEOPLE WHO DO THIS SHIT!?
"Not a terrorist"
Quote from: Shiranu on June 18, 2015, 02:09:01 AM
"Not a terrorist"
Of course not, he's white, no such thing as a white terrorist right?
Just imagine the media storm if he was brown skinned or in a headscarf.
Tim McVeigh.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 18, 2015, 05:12:56 AM
Tim McVeigh.
Naaaah, he wasn't a white terrorist, he was just a very pale skinned terrorist.
Quote from: Munch on June 18, 2015, 05:16:54 AM
Naaaah, he wasn't a white terrorist, he was just a very pale skinned terrorist.
Charles Whitman.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 18, 2015, 05:48:01 AM
Charles Whitman.
He was secretly an Asian man posing as a white American. There's no such thing as white American terrorists ^^
Quote from: Munch on June 18, 2015, 05:51:40 AM
He was secretly an Asian man posing as a white American. There's no such thing as white American terrorists ^^
George W. Bush.
Ahhhhh.........................shit or dear.................I hate this thought that keeps bubbling up in my brain.................no matter how much I try to keep it away or think of something else. Please, somebody, everybody, tell me I'm bat-shit crazy! That I am over reacting. That I'm too stupid to live.
Race war????????????????
I hope no race wars jump off here in South Carolina. . I'm in Columbia and not really in the mood to see this nice neighborhood go up in flames. .It's about the most racially integrated place I've ever lived and most people don't even notice it unless they're from the lily white neighborhoods and move here expecting some white flight enclave and then it's WOOPS!
Quote“I have to do it,†the gunman was quoted as saying. “You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.â€
Holy whackadoodle! That there is some kind nut.
Quote from: aitm on June 18, 2015, 10:46:38 AM
Holy whackadoodle! That there is some kind nut.
I think it is downright thoughtful that Roof's daddy gave him a .45 pistol for his birthday. Guns don't kill people, people do.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 18, 2015, 10:49:20 AM
I think it is downright thoughtful that Roof's daddy gave him a .45 pistol for his birthday. Guns don't kill people, people do.
Don't be silly, this is god speaking for letting deh gays get married and all.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 18, 2015, 10:49:20 AM
I think it is downright thoughtful that Roof's daddy gave him a .45 pistol for his birthday. Guns don't kill people, people do.
Reminded me of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914
Quote from: aitm on June 18, 2015, 10:54:36 AM
Don't be silly, this is god speaking for letting deh gays get married and all.
It is interesting how God did protect his children. I'm sure most of those who were in that church and were spared injury are thanking God about it. It's funny how God protects some of his children and not others. My Gawd is an Awesome Gawd!!
This is why right-wingerism is bad. It twists people's minds.
I'm glad this really upsets me a lot, because it makes me feel human. :angry: :oak: :sad:
Of course, he was the proverbial "lone gunman" with help from no one. I wonder if the cops saying that is a tactic to instill false confidence in anyone else who may've been involved?
Lindsey Graham downplays race after black church shooting: People 'looking for Christians to kill them' (http://rawstory.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=80b42ecc21f29763320aceb90&id=b99a2764de&e=05976f754b)
Pro-gun pastor tells Fox: ‘Hate crime’ means shooter is prejudiced against ‘biblical views’ â€" not race (http://rawstory.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=80b42ecc21f29763320aceb90&id=018017b97e&e=05976f754b)
NOW can we ban guns?
Quote from: Atheon on June 18, 2015, 11:13:19 PM
NOW can we ban guns?
Not a chance. I predict that not one law will change in regards to gun ownership or regulation. The corporate hold is a strangle hold.
Quote from: Atheon on June 18, 2015, 11:13:19 PM
NOW can we ban guns?
Nope. But even if we did, I doubt it would do what you think it would.
Quote from: Johan on June 18, 2015, 11:48:51 PM
Nope. But even if we did, I doubt it would do what you think it would.
Personal opinion aside, American hysteria with gun ownership would probably ensure that any attempt to ban or heavily restrict guns would result in enough bloodshed to make these shootings look like a Sunday picnic. The issue is never going to be solved one way or another until the population at large becomes better educated about the responsibilities and consequences of gun ownership.
In that case, the murders will continue. How sad that America is no longer the most advanced country in the world. We are weighed down by stupid conservative fuckheads.
Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 19, 2015, 12:54:58 AM
Personal opinion aside, American hysteria with gun ownership would probably ensure that any attempt to ban or heavily restrict guns would result in enough bloodshed to make these shootings look like a Sunday picnic.
I don't believe that. Most people are fundamentally good. And despite what they may say or the act they may put on, most people are fundamentally cowards.
If we did manage to pass some sort of ban/buyback deal, you would hear a metric shit ton of 'from my cold dead hands' talk. But in the end there would be relatively little bloodshed over it. People like to talk a good game, but very few would actually let themselves be killed or sent to prison over it. What would probably happen is that lots of otherwise law abiding gun owners would hide their guns instead of turning them in and would thereby become criminals by default. IIRC this happened in Australia when they imposed their ban.
And then you'd see a ton of people getting much more politically active than we've ever known. And lots of current politicians would be voted out of office which on the surface sounds like a really desirable side effect until you realize that it would allow almost any whacko to get voted in regardless of qualifications or agenda so long as they vowed to work hard to repeal the gun ban. So careful what you wish for there.
But as I said in the post above, if you look at the hard stats for Australia, you will see that a gun ban is unlikely to achieve the effect you believe it will. You will often hear the anti-gun crowd mention that gun related homicide dropped significantly in Australia after their gun ban which makes it sound like a win. Woo hoo. But they're always careful to phrase it as 'gun-related' homicide. Because the reality is the actual homicide numbers went up after the ban. Gun-related homicides dropped, but total homicide climbed initially, then dropped back down to more or less pre ban levels where they remained until Australia beefed up police budgets significantly some years later. Its sad to say, but the Australia numbers really do seem to prove out the tired old pro-gun adage, people really do kill people. Getting rid of the guns didn't stop them from killing each other in about the same numbers as before.
Quote from: Johan on June 19, 2015, 06:37:48 AM
But they're always careful to phrase it as 'gun-related' homicide. Because the reality is the actual homicide numbers went up after the ban. Gun-related homicides dropped, but total homicide climbed initially, then dropped back down to more or less pre ban levels where they remained until Australia beefed up police budgets significantly some years later. Its sad to say, but the Australia numbers really do seem to prove out the tired old pro-gun adage, people really do kill people. Getting rid of the guns didn't stop them from killing each other in about the same numbers as before.
What about accidental gun deaths and injuries?
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 19, 2015, 12:54:58 AM
The issue is never going to be solved one way or another until the population at large becomes better educated about the responsibilities and consequences of gun ownership.
That and Americans stop being so afraid. Americans typically say they own guns to protect themselves from their fellow citizens.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/18/jon-stewart-charleston-no-jokes_n_7618110.html
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 18, 2015, 08:39:38 PM
Lindsey Graham downplays race after black church shooting: People 'looking for Christians to kill them' (http://rawstory.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=80b42ecc21f29763320aceb90&id=b99a2764de&e=05976f754b)
Pro-gun pastor tells Fox: ‘Hate crime’ means shooter is prejudiced against ‘biblical views’ â€" not race (http://rawstory.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=80b42ecc21f29763320aceb90&id=018017b97e&e=05976f754b)
Even vultures have the courtesy to wait until the bodies are rotting before doing their dirty work.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on June 19, 2015, 08:10:37 AM
Even vultures have the courtesy to wait until the bodies are rotting before doing their dirty work.
Faux News and courtesy or truth have never gotten along well.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on June 19, 2015, 07:02:59 AM
What about accidental gun deaths and injuries?
Not sure about injuries, but accidental shooting deaths also went up after the ban.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on June 19, 2015, 07:02:59 AMThat and Americans stop being so afraid. Americans typically say they own guns to protect themselves from their fellow citizens.
I'm more worried about the ones who want to protect themselves from big bad gubnit. There are seriously people out there who think their little popgun is gonna protect them from an RPG or an Abrams.
The shooter has now confessed he wanted to start a race war. And some people who knew him said he had talked about it. So, why is this labeled a hate crime and not an act of terrorism? Is a hate crime easier to prove? Can both be proven to be true in a court? I am interested to see what they find when they trace his connections. I really don't think this was figured out in a vacuum. Will this lead to a group of white supremacists actively operating in that area? I wonder what connection daddy has to all of this? And I wonder if this will all be sort of all swept under the rug by calling him a lone wold druggy gone rogue?
Are the consequences different if it is classified as terrorism, hate crime or nine counts of first degree murder?
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2015, 11:54:50 AM
The shooter has now confessed he wanted to start a race war. And some people who knew him said he had talked about it. So, why is this labeled a hate crime and not an act of terrorism? Is a hate crime easier to prove? Can both be proven to be true in a court? I am interested to see what they find when they trace his connections. I really don't think this was figured out in a vacuum. Will this lead to a group of white supremacists actively operating in that area? I wonder what connection daddy has to all of this? And I wonder if this will all be sort of all swept under the rug by calling him a lone wold druggy gone rogue?
I'd call it murder. I'd go nuts trying to decide what the motivation was. Murder is good enough for me. That would be something if they charged him with a hate crime and the defense proved it was terrorism, so the judge dismissed the case. Hey don't laugh; Strange things happen in the legal system.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on June 19, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
Are the consequences different if it is classified as terrorism, hate crime or nine counts of first degree murder?
I don't know the answers to those questions. But I do think the murder counts are enhanced, in that it is easier to get a death penalty--and I think S. Carolina has that. But I'm not sure. And then, will this be a state crime or a federal crime? Will the state try it first, and if the US govt. doesn't like the outcome, try it on a federal level charge?
Quote from: SGOS on June 19, 2015, 12:07:56 PM
I'd call it murder. I'd go nuts trying to decide what the motivation was. Murder is good enough for me. That would be something if they charged him with a hate crime and the defense proved it was terrorism, so the judge dismissed the case. Hey don't laugh; Strange things happen in the legal system.
Quite clearly it is murder. I don't think we need to twist ourselves in a knot on this guy's motivation. He is a white supremacist and he wanted to start a race war. The KKK may not be in the headlines, but it is far from being dead! If Isis can recruit 'lone wolves' in this country, why can't the KKK do the same in this country? The history of the KKK is strong with this type of activity. Does anybody really think it has stopped? In the South that I knew, the Civil War never happened--it was the "War of Yankee Aggression" and there was a small group ready to re-fight it again. South Carolina flies the confederate battle flag. What does that say about that state? So, is it such a stretch that this guy was a lone wolf acting in what he considered to be a larger picture, who would be willing to give his life much like a suicide bomber? And give his life much like Booth thought he was doing--to start a cleansing race war? I don't see it as being that far-fetched.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on June 19, 2015, 08:10:37 AM
Even vultures have the courtesy to wait until the bodies are rotting before doing their dirty work.
And yet I always hear the right lecturing gun control supporters against politicizing tragedies.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on June 19, 2015, 08:10:37 AM
Even vultures have the courtesy to wait until the bodies are rotting before doing their dirty work.
Actually, they will go after the wounded and the sick sometimes. So I'd say it's an apt description.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on June 19, 2015, 11:15:14 AM
I'm more worried about the ones who want to protect themselves from big bad gubnit. There are seriously people out there who think their little popgun is gonna protect them from an RPG or an Abrams.
I'm inclined to disagree. One of the employees I manage is one of these guys. He has forgotten more about the specifics of ballistic weapons than you or I will ever know. He does not for a moment think his personal arsenal is going to protect him from the gubment or their army. He knows exactly what his weapons are capable of as well as exactly what weapons they have and exactly what they're capable of and he does not for a second think that he can win. But his attitude is guns are legal so I'm gonna own em' and if they ever come to git me, I'll at least give them a fight they'll not soon forget.
Don't get me wrong, I still think he's batshit crazy and tell him so. But on that score, I think he at least approaches being rational. I don't agree with it obviously. But I think he's at least rational about it. I suspect you will find that most others of his ilk are exactly like him in that respect.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2015, 11:54:50 AM
The shooter has now confessed he wanted to start a race war. And some people who knew him said he had talked about it. So, why is this labeled a hate crime and not an act of terrorism? Is a hate crime easier to prove? Can both be proven to be true in a court?
I don't think what happens in court is what really matters here. I mean yes, he should stand in court and be convicted. But he killed nine so hate crime or terrorist doesn't really make a difference as far as he goes. He's not going to take another breath as a free man ever again either way.
I think the far bigger issue in this deal is how it exposes the dirty little secret that is racism in this country in 2015 and how we will once again do absolutely fucking nothing about it. If he was muslim and he had walked into a black church and killed nine black americans, there would be an outcry to declare war on all muslims. Muslim mosques all over this country would be in flames at this very moment. Vote grabbing senators would be proposing legislation to force all muslims to register their name and address or some such bullshit. In short, we as Americans would be chomping at the bit to go to war with someone because a gat damned muslim killed nine of our own.
But instead when a racist white bread coward does it, we feign concern and say oh the horror and he shouldn't of oughta done that and then we go back to our normally scheduled day. At the most, we try to blame it on those silly Americans and their silly obsession with guns and when will they ever learn....
This front page news event was an act of out and out racism and nothing but. And we as a country will once again do absolutely nothing to even acknowledge that much less actually try to do even the smallest thing to fix it. A muslim does it? And suddenly it doesn't matter that the victims were black, we're invading a fucking country over it if it fucking kills us. But some cowardly white bread American born faggot* does it? And its well they were black but lets not get too crazy and you know, racism doesn't really exist so this is obviously just a tragic event of one lone lost soul and nothing to see here, move along now.
How much of a fucking wake up call do we fucking need? 100 years from now, this event won't be more than footnote in any history books... er, wiki pages.... er, whatever. Just one more heinous example of hate that went largely unnoticed by the group of racist bigots that are collectively known as Americans. Go team.
*Yeah I said faggot. If we're going to decide that its a hate word (and it is) then we may as well use it for its intended purpose. So I think it fits quite well in this case.
Quote from: Johan on June 19, 2015, 10:35:07 PM
I don't think what happens in court is what really matters here. I mean yes, he should stand in court and be convicted. But he killed nine so hate crime or terrorist doesn't really make a difference as far as he goes. He's not going to take another breath as a free man ever again either way.
I think the far bigger issue in this deal is how it exposes the dirty little secret that is racism in this country in 2015 and how we will once again do absolutely fucking nothing about it. If he was muslim and he had walked into a black church and killed nine black americans, there would be an outcry to declare war on all muslims. Muslim mosques all over this country would be in flames at this very moment. Vote grabbing senators would be proposing legislation to force all muslims to register their name and address or some such bullshit. In short, we as Americans would be chomping at the bit to go to war with someone because a gat damned muslim killed nine of our own.
But instead when a racist white bread coward does it, we feign concern and say oh the horror and he shouldn't of oughta done that and then we go back to our normally scheduled day. At the most, we try to blame it on those silly Americans and their silly obsession with guns and when will they ever learn....
This front page news event was an act of out and out racism and nothing but. And we as a country will once again do absolutely nothing to even acknowledge that much less actually try to do even the smallest thing to fix it. A muslim does it? And suddenly it doesn't matter that the victims were black, we're invading a fucking country over it if it fucking kills us. But some cowardly white bread American born faggot* does it? And its well they were black but lets not get too crazy and you know, racism doesn't really exist so this is obviously just a tragic event of one lone lost soul and nothing to see here, move along now.
How much of a fucking wake up call do we fucking need? 100 years from now, this event won't be more than footnote in any history books... er, wiki pages.... er, whatever. Just one more heinous example of hate that went largely unnoticed by the group of racist bigots that are collectively known as Americans. Go team.
*Yeah I said faggot. If we're going to decide that its a hate word (and it is) then we may as well use it for its intended purpose. So I think it fits quite well in this case.
Yes, absolutely--you read my mind. The confederate battle flag still flies. The blacks are still black. Whites and those in govt. will make the appropriate sounds and all will go on as it has been. I don't read facebook or any social media, so I won't know if this prediction will pass or not--but I bet in the next few weeks the racists will make their presence known--the support for this subhuman will come out. I have to wonder--where is the KKK in all of this? I know they are alive and well; they have a huge hotbed in CA, in Tracy. I got more than my fair share in the juvenile hall school I taught at--fully tatted, shaved head and simply subhuman, knuckle dragging creature--each and every one. I had a very hard time being civil to them. I digress. Amerkia the wonderful--the place where there is no racism--women enjoy equal rights and pay--all public schools are equal--people kill people, guns don't--nobody is in prison--trickle down economics work--corporations are people and war is peace. Gotta love it!
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2015, 10:48:33 PM
Yes, absolutely--you read my mind. The confederate battle flag still flies. The blacks are still black. Whites and those in govt. will make the appropriate sounds and all will go on as it has been. I don't read facebook or any social media, so I won't know if this prediction will pass or not--but I bet in the next few weeks the racists will make their presence known--the support for this subhuman will come out. I have to wonder--where is the KKK in all of this? I know they are alive and well; they have a huge hotbed in CA, in Tracy. I got more than my fair share in the juvenile hall school I taught at--fully tatted, shaved head and simply subhuman, knuckle dragging creature--each and every one. I had a very hard time being civil to them. I digress. Amerkia the wonderful--the place where there is no racism--women enjoy equal rights and pay--all public schools are equal--people kill people, guns don't--nobody is in prison--trickle down economics work--corporations are people and war is peace. Gotta love it!
You agree, I agree and we are obviously not alone. And yet, this is still the America we end up with. Why is that? What are you and I not doing enough of? I'm a smart guy and I think you are too but for the life of me I don't understand why this is the reality we seem to be stuck with. Racism simply will not die.
I am not at all a fan of the (I believe) misguided thought that certain otherwise undesirable character flaws are simply genetics. The don juans of the world will tell you that men are genetically wired to spread their seed and that's why guys cheat and sleep with anything that moves. Hogwash. Men are perfectly capable of being faithful and displaying good character so if you want to whore yourself out to anyone who will spread their legs in order to get your dick wet, so be it but own it. Don't argue genetics to justify your own lack of good character.
But this racism stuff? I just don't know. We are collectively the most intelligent individuals that have ever inhabited the surface of this planet. At least as far as we know. And yet we still cannot help but act like raw savages toward one another. It seems like a cop out to fall back on it but I have to wonder if genetically we as a group are simply not capable of achieving the idealogical heights which we seem to so easily convince ourselves we've already attained individually.
Racism = fear. We fear what we do not know. We do not know that which we have not learned. Education, as it often is the case, is the answer.
http://news.yahoo.com/suspected-charleston-shooter-dylann-roof-wanted-to-start--race-war---reports-164102298.html#
From the national scene, the rather banal debate over terrorist vs insane person vs hate crime continues. When they captured the first Muslim terrorist years ago, we had a national debate about where to try him and under what label. I thought then that they were giving a common asshole too much attention and even elevating his status from murderer to something more grand and glorious in his own mind. Apparently, these things make a difference in some legal way. Why, I have no idea. Just let him sit through the trial while the prosecution names the innocents he murdered. Don't bother with motivations. Just focus on the behavior for what it is. Don't let him have the floor to explain his ideology. Don't even mention it.
Quote from: Johan on June 19, 2015, 10:35:07 PM
*Yeah I said faggot. If we're going to decide that its a hate word (and it is) then we may as well use it for its intended purpose. So I think it fits quite well in this case.
That's as idiotic as calling him the n word and as inappropriate and hateful, too.
Quote from: SGOS on June 20, 2015, 07:42:57 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/suspected-charleston-shooter-dylann-roof-wanted-to-start--race-war---reports-164102298.html#
From the national scene, the rather banal debate over terrorist vs insane person vs hate crime continues. When they captured the first Muslim terrorist years ago, we had a national debate about where to try him and under what label. I thought then that they were giving a common asshole too much attention and even elevating his status from murderer to something more grand and glorious in his own mind. Apparently, these things make a difference in some legal way. Why, I have no idea. Just let him sit through the trial while the prosecution names the innocents he murdered. Don't bother with motivations. Just focus on the behavior for what it is. Don't let him have the floor to explain his ideology. Don't even mention it.
Yep--I agree. I've often wondered if the media's handling of the various 'terror attacks' have not been fueling some of these attacks, in a way. Isis, for example, feeds off that type of press. The so called 'lone wolf' attacks that get such press helps fuel the next and the next attack. Maybe if those type of attacks were called violence and murder, then they may not be so 'sexy' to a certain group of people. I can remember overhearing some of the juvenile offenders in my classroom making remarks such as 'they are going to remember me as a terrorist.......'; they did not like to be called a murderer or violent offender--but terrorist was okay.
Quote from: Johan on June 19, 2015, 11:19:08 PM
You agree, I agree and we are obviously not alone. And yet, this is still the America we end up with. Why is that? What are you and I not doing enough of? I'm a smart guy and I think you are too but for the life of me I don't understand why this is the reality we seem to be stuck with. Racism simply will not die.
I am not at all a fan of the (I believe) misguided thought that certain otherwise undesirable character flaws are simply genetics. The don juans of the world will tell you that men are genetically wired to spread their seed and that's why guys cheat and sleep with anything that moves. Hogwash. Men are perfectly capable of being faithful and displaying good character so if you want to whore yourself out to anyone who will spread their legs in order to get your dick wet, so be it but own it. Don't argue genetics to justify your own lack of good character.
But this racism stuff? I just don't know. We are collectively the most intelligent individuals that have ever inhabited the surface of this planet. At least as far as we know. And yet we still cannot help but act like raw savages toward one another. It seems like a cop out to fall back on it but I have to wonder if genetically we as a group are simply not capable of achieving the idealogical heights which we seem to so easily convince ourselves we've already attained individually.
I, too, am deeply puzzled by the life racism has in this country. I don't really understand it. I mean, I understand racism--I just don't understand why it seems to have such stout legs. My first brush with racism was when I moved to Alabama in the 5th grade. I noticed 'colored' and 'white' signs in stores over drinking fountains and rest rooms, and then that the 'coloreds' could eat some places and not others--go to school in their own schools, etc. That was quite the culture shock for a little white guy from Oregon. And I was asked by some of the first people I met in school--are you a rebel or a yankee. I had no idea what they were talking about; they learned I was from Oregon, so I became a Yankee (and have been a Yankees fan ever since). I learned that the Civil War had not been fought, but that the War of Yankee Agression, had. And still is being fought for some. I don't know that the zeitgeist or elan of that area and culture have changed much since the Civil War. What could have changed it? Maybe if it had been made crystal clear that the confederate states had lost and that what they were fighting for was morally bankrupt, and that allowing the symbols of that bankrupt morality to exist was not going to happen would have changed it. Maybe it would have been better to have destroyed all those symbols and then not allowed streets and schools and buildings and parks to be named after the fallen 'heros' of the confederate states; the remnants had been kept in museums only; maybe that would have blunted that unreasoning love of the confederacy. I don't know. There are some sick puppies in that area.
And yes, I know that racism is alive and well in all 50 states. Yes, I understand group vs group hatred. But this is beyond that, isn't it? And I think education is a key to breaking that stuff down. Maybe one lifetime is much too short a time to make many real changes. I don't know. This process may take generations to really change. But the why of it still escapes me.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 20, 2015, 09:48:05 AM
And yes, I know that racism is alive and well in all 50 states. Yes, I understand group vs group hatred. But this is beyond that, isn't it? And I think education is a key to breaking that stuff down. Maybe one lifetime is much too short a time to make many real changes. I don't know. This process may take generations to really change. But the why of it still escapes me.
I think it stands to reason that education over several generations could eventually make racism nonexistent. It might take many generations. But I really am worried about the genetic wiring thing. I'm afraid that selective pressure has rendered us as a species of individuals that instinctively want to band ourselves into groups and then make other similar groups our enemy. I think deep down we're hard wired for that.
If that's the case, it will likely take more than education over several generations to breed racism out of us. It will likely take a couple hundred thousand generations to get the job done. The good news here is that if this theory is correct, racism as we know it will come to an end long before we're able to breed it out of our genetics. Because I think its much more likely that we will breed away our individual races much sooner that we'll be able to breed away our need to make enemies. Its going to be tough to be racist once we're all of the exact same generic race.
The thought of it does make me wonder what traits we will use to single out individuals to discriminate against once we're all the same color. Those with small foreheads? Those with wide cheekbones maybe? 'Get the fuck out of here you fucking flat face, we don't want your kind here'. Oh I can't wait. :rolleyes:
Ban guns. Stamp out racism.
Did anyone see the video of all the families forgiving this terrorist thug?
It's really amazing.
Quote from: Dreamer on June 22, 2015, 01:38:31 PM
Did anyone see the video of all the families forgiving this terrorist thug?
It's really amazing.
Perhaps, or is just, the first guy played the card and the second had no choice but to follow or look bad. Kinda like when one wins an monetary prize at a fund-raiser. Nobody wants to be second in case the first fuck gives the money back.