I think atheists should pick their battles more wisely; rather than declare war against the entirety of religion (which accounts for billions of people) - their focus should be on the fundamentalists and evangelicals, and those wishing to deny science or impose religion on government.
By making all religion and religious individuals their enemies, I believe they alienate themselves as radicals, and make it much harder to become mainstream accepted.
Quote from: Ace101 on June 10, 2015, 03:34:10 PM
I think atheists should pick their battles more wisely; rather than declare war against the entirety of religion (which accounts for billions of people) - their focus should be on the fundamentalists and evangelicals, and those wishing to deny science or impose religion on government.
Evangelical atheism is a thing. Not a fan of it personally.
Religions declare war. We're meant to be above that. If by war you mean tackling religious fundies in courts, we kind of already do that now.
Quote from: Munch on June 10, 2015, 04:04:35 PM
Religions declare war.
I think in this day and age, it's far more accurate to say that individuals or small groups declare war in the name of religion. I would wager to say the vast majority of people of any faith view their religion as simply one aspect of their lives. Today while I was volunteering at the food pantry, about 150 teenagers from 6 different church youth groups dropped off 10 pallet loads of canned goods as part of some kind of collective summer project community food drive. I can tell you, non-perishable food donations really drop off during summer months and those kids did some good for their community, even though they did it because "that's what Jesus would do."
If I were an asshole with a giant chip on my shoulder, I could have gone out to the parking lot and called them a bunch of mindless fucking sheep who worship a fake God. Instead, I thought, "hey, good on you guys" and went about my day, and I daresay we were all better off for it.
No.
I'd rather have a war on ignorance -- education will do a better job of wiping out religion than attacking it directly.
Yes.
Quote from: trdsf on June 10, 2015, 09:02:15 PM
I'd rather have a war on ignorance -- education will do a better job of wiping out religion than attacking it directly.
This. Religious conservatives already think they are "martyrs" being victimized by the rest of the world by virtue of their religion being awesome and fuck everyone else. Statements like "we'll declare war on you" only cement that perception.
Education won't erase very aspect of religion. It's not really meant do. What it counters is mindless dogma. Not just the notion that you can assert something and present evidence for it. But the notion that you can and should and it's MORAL to believe in something that HAS been proven false.
How does that sentiment in the Bible go again? Blessed people who haven't seen and yet believe? Education advocates the opposite, which is why the far-right hate secular education as much as they do.
I think we should fight radical religion by joining religious people that agree that it hurts all religions and those who aren't. I think the Church, churches, and their leaders be prosecuted for their indiscretions and corruption like any other criminals are.
Quote from: trdsf on June 10, 2015, 09:02:15 PM
I'd rather have a war on ignorance -- education will do a better job of wiping out religion than attacking it directly.
^this.
We need a war on paint that fades and peels..and this shit spiders get their webs stuck to. .holy fuck that's annoying. .
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on June 11, 2015, 12:33:20 AM
We need a war on paint that fades and peels..and this shit spiders get their webs stuck to. .holy fuck that's annoying. .
how about a war on spiders altogether? the ones who remain in the wilds can go free, but the ones who come into your home and crawl across your face at night, they shall all perish under our iron toe!
[spoiler]â–²
“The infinity risen from out of water greeting with nature.
Nature bursts into wisdom. Wisdom leads to crafting.
The perfection of craft for a blind eye appeals as magic. Magic tends to trick.
Tricking follows into discord. Discords nature is the key of war.
War ends down with death. Death suggests of chaos.
Chaos's end is the beginning of order.
The representation of line with two points… Order and Chaos. The never ending cycle...â€
The Sleeping Scars: Undulation; Chapter 8: Creavi ad perdendum
The author of the following statement has the bravery of being unknown to most circles of life. An eager of spreading a just and perfect vision of the world drove my inner being in pursue of truth. Five years of little to no researching, but own mind evaluating has rendered me capable of unfolding those mysteries to the ones that seek, which till now, have been kept secret as the grave. I've derived it knowledge at first from brainwashing media, puppets of those who know. As the zombie mind began to die off I became possessed of its effects; and on over the signs of Illuminati, found the door into deep dark ocean of desires to globalize this shattered world. Remarks on great plan, which exited my curiosity so far that I revolved on accomplishing my honest scheme, without going through the forms required by the society.
My regard for the present, and respect to the future, is the only inducement to this publication, which is intended not only to affect those who, perhaps, have been lately awaken, and still remain ignorant of the true foundation of the NWO. To become the followers of invisible order of Illuminati. An opportunity of judging for themselves as to the obligation and nature of the society are going to escape into, and to confider the advantages and disadvantages of the engagements by which they are bound. Such is the intention of this undertaking an important task of throwing the fattest gambit in the history of life and death.
Phaenomenon re silentium
The future they seek
Radiation accumulated nations with cancer riot. One in every five. There were many ready to lose themselves…
The green planet. Like an apple, it’s eventually turns into red and then after inky yellow in some time. 2070s. There was time when the planet has been covered in cities and life was pushing as a train. The planet was looking grayish of monotony. 2090s nearly new century, life turned into flaming red and even the telescope of far icy satellite of Europa would’ve see the fire.
Right after 90 percent of all mass destructive weapons were sent to Mars on 2096 a machine of sorrow began to swirl across the nations. The same year World War Three dropped its wheal of depleting death on December 26th. Many believed that it was the one, the thermonuclear. The truly to be “war to end all warsâ€. Six years passed the war was finished in victory of neo communism party and resulted with groundbreaking 42 percent of humanity slaughtered in the process. 2120s…Mini World War four as many called was sponsored by last standing religious men propagandized to be the plague of anarchy from across the globe, they were stomped by the ruthless agenda, the logic in just two years. The utopia of believing in something great after death was killed by unstoppable science. Since then it was all about now, your sweat, your tears, your work, your every second beating heart no time to pray, its illogical elite suggested as many much bigger things with it. There were still lands where certain religion group could live in peace and prosperity, but they were rejected from the great fraction.
Due to economic crisis the world began to divide into old, settled capitalism and neo communism increasingly pushed by youth and uprising societies. Cold elitism with the limit against the free will without exit. . Cyborg future began to rise in minds of many after multiple scientific discoveries with genetically modified organs and half organic electronics. The new reforms were pushed through parliaments of continents. Religions were faded by order and science. Countries spared their history and culture on slope of internet while eventually becoming into single globalized corporation: simply called “The Earthâ€. The technology eventually advanced to the final stage when humans could transform their usual brain into computer, swapping their right eyeball with AI information filter. . It was pc installed directly into the mind with extra tweaks to turn into potential hard worker anyone who carries it. Plus it gave obvious advantages as well connection with lots of unusual for human body applications. Alarm, Internet, games and etc. At the age of eighteen every single inhabitant of Earth was supposed to lay on surgeons table to spare the system. After each of their move being recorded, their life began a part of 100 points cycle. Merely speaking each positive and logical effect on humanity and the planet was resulted with extra point. An invention if it was in ranks of genius may send the owner to 50 points up. On the final mark the 100 points meant a continuation of family tree for its individual. A man or woman with 100 points would've done such operation with its half that was above 50 points. The murder of human will make the obtaining reduced to 0.1 for each point and of cause jail didn’t disappear. People still had the free will to spend entire life in block two by two. The humanity was finally assorted right, thanks to technology. Recycled cities were changed with next gen technologies of pure customization in all types of products. China, Russia and USA closed all factories and then reopened many by one name, reducing human industrial activity to minimum. Later everyone agreed to proceed in same pace, putting advertisement into the grave. Even so the world was communist like, advancing to perfect the race, the cloths were blue or graffiti like, the electric cars were changing color and form on the run. Only thing was it all happened by seeing world from integrated right filter-eye. Things were gray everyone agreed, but the future since was brighter than ever...
“Illuminate your foes by creating chaos, play both sides, control all. Sacrifice the present for the sake of future. And you will succeed, those who got nothing to follow, open your eye and see the truth before life becomes harsh and full of pain. Faith controls and creates wars. Stop it and there wont be any more.†Illuminati
Each second there are more negative things humankind does then good and if we will think mathematically about it that means that once everything will end, pretty soon. Our moves are changing the physical nucleus of the reality as also recreating the chaos. Nonphysical life is our final destination to save the species...
There's an undertone in everything around you, unknown reader. Tone of possibilities in each move I can do in the next second. Casual moments could have played in different styles under particular circumstances causing me to think of many dimensions being born around us.
Here is the truth. Just like that. No church, no invitation, no paychecks and scam. No brainwashing for rich and few to get the same result... Youth will do much harder, faster, stronger and better.
The origin came from nothing. In the world of nothing there was a simple element that was missing, as it was causing significant changes into everything.
In the world of nothing, there were no rules upon anything of it nothingness. Therefore without the rule, you create new elements, because there’s nothing for it to stop.
Something created the challenge that made new worlds of different colors with crazy structural levels.
Infinity caused rules...
The rules cause challenge. Challenge cause variety as also scars upon it. Variety is continuing the infinity as scars causes the chaos. Chaos destroys or brings the rules while also the challenge gaining or losing an enormous amount of possible variety and this keeps on going without time limits. Chaos doesn't let things to unite themselves too long so it will never fill the infinity.
We are the fighting for the immortality sort of variety as also for infinity, but if we fall into chaos then we will lose rules and we would intoxicate with darkness. It's all about chance.
When the mankind will gain an absolute access over everything they ever could then we will have a possibility to create worlds in virtual realities causing new dimensions, but it got to be a perfection level that we could calculate anything so right to live for infinity time inside of the organic system, somewhere where any desires are possible immediately.
Our lifes represent a passage of choice. It's got two perpendicular endings. The circle of life and death could portray the unity at the same time the zero. Happy ending and the darkish end. The complex system of living points out on how our society works. Imagine a broken mirror in the shadow of the room. As you can see it got black details connected to white and grey. White expresses all the possible scientific discoveries of future that could be led to our saving. Black is the struggle of the past that helps us to learn on mistakes of others. Dark, white grey areas are the pentacle of this picture. It’s the mystery, the missing elements that must be found before failure or victory, but their something else sacred. Therese invisible lines that could connect the other elements across major pieces of this jigsaw. This means that's the passage of primal success will never be that easy to accomplish without using any means necessary, whether its structures of past or present. So therefore the name of the book that will serve as Illuminati's mindset is The Sleeping Scars. It represents those invisible lines for the world to find and understand. It must be vague... It meant to create different thoughts upon the ultimate questions, while silently pushes correct answers in the waves of spree. What's free will compared to future with triple dots? What's the solution of ego affecting the world in every kind of human industry? Many of other answers will be found in my book, but the understanding of those words in proper is the main game's point. I’m not here to make you think vague, but just to think above the usual human morals. Over intelligent aliens would've fun reading this extrapolated saga because they went through this problem billions of years ago. What about you? Would you have fun to see the immortalized future before it ends and then manage to end the past before the world itself? The world required it to be dissented from its future, hiding behind the past cause of understandable development... It's time for an unknown to coordinate the jurisdictions of what’s right and wrong. It's time for people to stand by its own rights. I'll show humanity what’s a utopian society really is and how it will highly improve after time. As well as not that utopian society, but quite an opposite. As I call it in the theory as the almost perfect, the final and failed traces of experiences aka by this weathered pages of the script-dimensions.
Let me give you a taste of what Sleeping Scars is going to be on one of its five dimensions.[/spoiler]
spam hidden to consolidate space on the page -PickelledEggs
[spoiler]
Quote from: undulationer on June 11, 2015, 12:33:14 PM
The Negativus
Alslantima
An empty looking planet was glistering far in the deep of space across giant Jupiter. Someone inside was chanting solemn burble. Low tones of undiscovered world were whispering the unlimited triumph to their ruler…
There in the depth of mixed structures was steel golem in female form that looked surrealistic compare to any ghost of light and onyx as also reeked with its alien appearance for this reality. Its sharp outline contour was pushing with its greatness towards any of her creations. Eyes were turning dark with sparkles purple when she was silent, thinking or green with flames of flash when she was speaking. The most unusual colors of her eyes were red and silvery. Bloody spheres were shown limitedly at the times when she was wishing of something that was new. For a god, wishes were like unseen dreams. Wishing was just so fast, so spontaneous that she could have just seized it in her mind for just short period. Once there is a master that comes in and creates it in new reality. One day there is this once that changes anything into everything. Eh, how confused was she billions years ago and how bored since. Different numbers and they are everywhere. They came and never going to leave…
Presently, how about to create a world that doesn’t have numbers? Would the master be lost with it?
She looked at the Negativus. Then she turned her eyes onto the mirror particles of platform that blew her vicious stare into its own. The purple fire slept inside of her pupils and then spurted with scarlet agony of visual enthusiasm. It was actually unique…
The goddess smiled with blend set of teeth. Her cold steel nose like sword was fumbling into upper lips. The crown that resembled her status was spiked stiff out of her metallic hair.
At first when I began to settle the new life inside, there was just a core warming surroundings and raising a tremendous pasture for my creativity. My unlimited force sliced the burning orb into two equal pieces. I took one to be kept in time of war as my primary weapon against unknown owners of the cosmos. The other I left to rotate in time to bring something like day and night for the world that I named as the Negativus.
Through the aegis, the heat from the center was creating a bright energy inside that eventually ramified to shadows of darkness under the turning hemisphere. The void of obsidian screen was so cold that a bubble in oceans size flipped out and covered the interior.
The dark was gathering free source of life and as a result, the shadows turned into individual souls. Some of them then moved towards the light, while others decided to remain in chaotic places of birth. These two oppositions began to create the city around the half-orb in the rules of my word. They were almost immortal only, because of inability to survive on oppositions sector. That's why they all must run… I enjoy my observing over the onyx undulationers running circles as the light changes the position of shine. I was also happy to see their progressive intellect in terms of communication skill as from cryptic symbols on the ground to the perfect plans of creating the greatest city in the universe. Their living habit was always on the move, so they lived in similar structured inhibitors.
The purpose of life of the DL* is to create worlds as to continue the infinity.
I won my world; I've got it to the perfection level... This means that everything what was physically possible to create and analyze has been done, and only the imagination is left for the continuation of the future.
Each time the DL is ready to create a new universe, the members of the planet come to me so I choose two masters to become into part-time demigods. Light is the meaning of creation, but without another color such as any darker there wouldn't be any single particle- just only a white list.
The rules of participating in the creation of the world are simple. The light undulationers must create a perfect race of beings, which will know all the possible knowledge of their universe to be able then to move into the stage of their immortality and ability to create anything they ever wanted. They got to catch the masters innovation of life before the innovation of death gets to finishing line. The onyx undulationers must to verify their strength in order to deserve the place under the gods. If the world doesn't stand into that category then the darkness destroys the creation of light. The ones that lost their world then forever will be turned onto dark side.
Completed worlds overlap the souls of those who got to the end, but do not get the memories of those who controlled over. One life in continues activating the new one.
This was all so simple since now on was to her like nothing.
Suddenly she saw the most unexpectedly thing for her always been victorious life. The flames of her eyes extinguished as if candles under sturdy breath to the stage of silver color. Those she used to hear the gods get, in the warning of incoming danger and… within there was something else… the death of somebody closed to her, probably the closest one was.
She was so power sensible that felt someone’s lasted beat of heart on the other end of universes.
The titan in the middle shuttered around and aloud.
“Today is the day when the one who could have protected me is dead in the sign that I got not much time until my fate will end up the same.†The god Alslantima whispered in last looking at her lovingly created world from the ladder of inner planet.
Maybe that's why someone innocent fell dead for me few hours ago. I got a feeling that it may be my last world to cover… This, maybe again...
“Let us begin...†Alslanti addressed to her right hand listener Plod-U-Pas. He was her slavery toy. His silhouette was too blurry to proper explain since he was always doing something for his highest master. Just some dusky strain on legs that was squeaking full of polite speeches and in split seconds notified with finished job.
“Yes, the queen...†Within low intonation replied a tiny ghost under the shadow of his owner and spread away.
Calling signal was out on every corner of full roof-covered streets of the Negativus. The new world was about to begin...
The place of infinity where the races could have faced each other was far in the top corner of the straight ceiling of half-orb, shinning with hallowed fire. The heat on that side wasn’t that bad, just only flames coming from the coal ground.
Light ones were grouping on the way up to there, while the onyx has been already around the platform of infinity. They had been always there up in the swimming pool that vertically rained small tears of water like it had low gravity. Pure darkness was the only mansion that was fleeing around the main city followed by washing rain.
Sedin, the master of evil was wearing a shadowy red-black heavy armor and a gold mask on half face with thorns on the top. His low-shaped square look was glowing blue over uncovered skin. His eyes were bleeding the shadowy rays mixed with spooky explosions of bright.
He set on an armchair in front of a new master of light named Zefijay. The old one lost his second world and been claimed to get overthrown into lower stages of organisms to fight his way back through mysteries and another billions of years. Zefijay was here before anyone else. His simple made glowing bronze toxically mask was directed towards the Sedin with his army. He was looking so boring that the expression of him was losing in cryptic words by flaming distinction.
Riot of excitement was from all sides. Right up the heads of masters somewhere the ruler of evil was glancing on his pawn Sedin.
“Please to present, the queen of the Negativus, Alslantima!†With a scream shouted Plod-U-Pas into the crowd of phantoms.
Everything fell into silence; only the cold steps began to grow louder towards the cobbled mantel with Sedin and Zefijay. The last step up of stairs from the firing angle of semi-circle was the beginning of her speech to the masters: “I would like to see a solution by you to feed the signs of perfection.†She pointed at Zefijay as she said that.
“You, stop him, but remember if the world is worth to be, so let it.â€
Sedin only nod his head down as same as the light owner did.
From the beginning of a sharp claw of Alslanti a white sheet appeared and laid down across the paved table between two masters.
Zefijay was very nervous, this was his second world and the last one he deprived, while having an unshaken body with the sign of the calm comportment and readiness to face the devil itself.
The dark wizard was imposing fear deep into his eyes, trying to convince of the future failure, silently; even so the creator of realities got his mask on so the spooky force can’t harm his mind.
“You may start, now.†Plod-U-Pas whispered to the table and gone away, following the queen to the top of the hovering stairs that was rising up into the deep of the planet.
“I want to go to the surface, alone. You will be in charge for a while till I will fully investigate the murder of my creator. It's time for you to feel the responsibility that I’m carrying every nanosecond.†Alslantima hissed to him, as she pushed Pup with a finger over the last step away of outer line.
When she reached the illuminated surface of the polychromatic planet, the owner of the Negativus sprinted up with disappears by the flash.
The most intervening aspect of life for the ghosts was about to occur soon.
Sedin released his hand over the present from the queen and his fingers clotted melting away the charcoal liquid, which fell into the center of changing emanation. A big dot was circulating around, spreading rays of shadows mixed with the light. It all grew and finally began to emerge from the leaf.
Zefijay arched his force on the cluster of animated images and flashed huge lightning out of his noxious hand. The gap with floating inside paddling objects hexed into the space within stars and galaxies. That's what was left on the convention after a few minutes while the forceful power was creating the new beginning.
Two gods were vigorously ready to trigger their future characters into the story of life and death. The ones were still small behind their backs. Souls of many began to fly upwards into the deep void dwindling, as at the same time getting closer to their masters.
The world was created... The world in which intelligent beings- human race will live on the planet that they call as the Earth…
made by undulationer
7/11/2015
to the seekers of Illuminati
[/spoiler]
spam hidden to consolidate space on the page -PickelledEggs
I'm thinking that a war on walls of text probably wouldn't be a bad idea. .
Quote from: Munch on June 11, 2015, 07:13:19 AM
how about a war on spiders altogether? the ones who remain in the wilds can go free, but the ones who come into your home and crawl across your face at night, they shall all perish under our iron toe!
I've been fighting that war for years. We even have an anthem already!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpz2OYf1QU
I said no because I am fundamentally opposed to people telling other people what to believe and how to live their lives. Yes, religious people do this, and they suck for it. It would be hypocritical of me to do the same thing to them.
In End of Faith, Sam Harris argues that moderate God squad people actually enable fundamentalists by failing to adequately challenge the dangers and nonsenses at the heart of the religious right and presenting the idea that the whole thing is not bullshit.
The trouble with many religious people is that not only are they ignorant, which is bad enough, but they believe in false knowledge, which GB Shaw points out is more dangerous than mere ignorance.
"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."
George Bernard Shaw
Pragmatism. Today's opponents are tomorrow's allies, and today's allies are tomorrow's opponents. So a "take no prisoners" approach will be self destructive. While as a theist, I don't find atheists to be threatening (at least since the fall of the Soviet Union) ... I understand that as a minority with an unpopular POV ... atheists living among theists are ... in a different gestalt than I am . As a theist, I am a minority among theists.
So how in general should one deal with a basically hostile society? Unless you are a progressive ... I don't see a frontal assault as doing much good. And I am not a progressive ... in the sense that the general trend of people being more sensible ... seems to be an illusion to me. America seems to have pretty much reverted back to the 1960s, only with inferior music ;-) I keep my own profile low, without denying who I am.
And per Unbeliever ... here is a wide disparity regarding "knowledge" between theists and atheists. That is one of their principle differences IMHO. Partly this is due to differences in education ... but also that what constitutes knowledge, and how this is obtained ... also differs. Hence the whole debate concerning gays and global warming. Even if all the facts are presented ... some of the facts will be denied prima facie, and epistemologically, the research that produced those facts will also be attacked. Competing forms of skepticism ... against naturalism, and against supernaturalism. Of course not all are skeptics, most folks are conformists.
Quote from: Baruch on June 17, 2015, 06:33:13 PM
Pragmatism. Today's opponents are tomorrow's allies, and today's allies are tomorrow's opponents. So a "take no prisoners" approach will be self destructive. While as a theist, I don't find atheists to be threatening (at least since the fall of the Soviet Union) ... I understand that as a minority with an unpopular POV ... atheists living among theists are ... in a different gestalt than I am . As a theist, I am a minority among theists.
So how in general should one deal with a basically hostile society? Unless you are a progressive ... I don't see a frontal assault as doing much good. And I am not a progressive ... in the sense that the general trend of people being more sensible ... seems to be an illusion to me. America seems to have pretty much reverted back to the 1960s, only with inferior music ;-) I keep my own profile low, without denying who I am.
And per Unbeliever ... here is a wide disparity regarding "knowledge" between theists and atheists. That is one of their principle differences IMHO. Partly this is due to differences in education ... but also that what constitutes knowledge, and how this is obtained ... also differs. Hence the whole debate concerning gays and global warming. Even if all the facts are presented ... some of the facts will be denied prima facie, and epistemologically, the research that produced those facts will also be attacked. Competing forms of skepticism ... against naturalism, and against supernaturalism. Of course not all are skeptics, most folks are conformists.
Ha! We do seem to be reverting back to the '60's without the music. :) Except I still have my music--the great thing about YouTube.
The problem with religion is that they think they have knowledge when all they have is ignorance from religious texts obviously written by people more ignorant than they are, believing it is infallible because it is the word of God that would be impossible to know if He actually is beyond this world, or in another dimension. This world there is always the possibility of it becoming hell, and actually is for many people, not only those in war, and people need a security blanket and false hope to deal with it, because it is pragmatic and works for many, while forgetting when it doesn't, thinking it won't be for them as long as they have faith.
Quote from: Baruch on June 17, 2015, 06:33:13 PMPragmatism. Today's opponents are tomorrow's allies, and today's allies are tomorrow's opponents. So a "take no prisoners" approach will be self destructive.
Well, one of the more "radical" notions among atheists right now is conversational intolerance, simply demanding the same sorts of standards for theistic claims that we would demand from any other sorts of claims, and stopping automatic deference to people's deeply-held beliefs simply because they are deeply-held. We're not exactly burning the fields and salting the earth.
QuoteWhile as a theist, I don't find atheists to be threatening (at least since the fall of the Soviet Union)
:eh: Thanks, I guess?
QuoteAnd per Unbeliever ... here is a wide disparity regarding "knowledge" between theists and atheists. That is one of their principle differences IMHO. Partly this is due to differences in education ... but also that what constitutes knowledge, and how this is obtained ... also differs. Hence the whole debate concerning gays and global warming. Even if all the facts are presented ... some of the facts will be denied prima facie, and epistemologically, the research that produced those facts will also be attacked. Competing forms of skepticism ... against naturalism, and against supernaturalism. Of course not all are skeptics, most folks are conformists.
That is true, one's epistemology is the primary difference. There certainly is no shortage of self-declared skeptics, though there clearly are huge differences in how they operate. For global warming "skeptics" in particular, the charge of pseudoskepticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoskepticism#Truzzi) seems to much more accurately depict their methodology than skepticism.
Pseudo-skeptic ... love your coinage. I think one could certainly develop a whole PhD in Theology (see other string) concerning that one. If one is skeptical, doesn't that undermine any criteria for deciding between real and false? Doesn't nihilism or solipsism result? Ouroboros eats his tail.
It is hard to tolerate, let alone admire, people who one despises. Brights vs Dims. This is an ethical problem, not an epistemological problem. Is there any conversation possible under those conditions? Not blaming atheists here ... the theists have been pulling this crap for millennia. But on another string, it was suggested that defensive war be waged, not conversation. And then there is the problem of demanding standards ... the "who's demanding" part and the "whose standards" part is a political problem. At least the political entanglement for atheists is temporarily suspended vis a vis communism. Yes, the entanglement wasn't "essential" but "opportunistic" ... but it did tremendous harm to atheism.
If I was certain to die, and I certainly will ... it may be your choice to not take advantage of a false security blanket ... but I see that as a personal choice, not as a public health issue. Dead is dead. Death is not the reason why I am a theist ... life is ... nasty, brutish and short ... but enough about my Ex ;-) As a freethinker, I share much of the same skepticism as the posters here. It is not inevitable that we will arrive at the same conclusions. Yes, the revolution will not be televised, but it will be Youtube ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2015, 07:28:01 AM
Pseudo-skeptic ... love your coinage. I think one could certainly develop a whole PhD in Theology (see other string) concerning that one. If one is skeptical, doesn't that undermine any criteria for deciding between real and false? Doesn't nihilism or solipsism result? Ouroboros eats his tail.
Baruch, I think it depends upon your definition of 'skeptic'. I like to think of myself as a bit of a skeptic. And from all angles. When I look closely at a topic, I like to approach that topic from all points of view, including the ones I find most difficult to understand or to like. I like to think that I'm skeptical--not blind. For some reason, about 20 or so years ago, I decided to come to a personal decision about the historicity of Jesus. Over the course of time, I read about Jesus from all points of view--from the most fundamental to the most skeptical. I reach a decision--personally, I think he is a myth. When I discuss the subject, I defend the position that he was a myth. But that does not mean my mind is closed--the skeptic in me makes me keep looking at the subject from the position of those who believe he was a real person. So, skeptic, for me, does not mean blind, but a search for as close to the actual facts as we can get. I also like to think I am a freethinker. I really use the two terms, 'skeptic' and 'freethinker' as almost interchangeable. Even tho, you don't claim it, I see you as a bit of a skeptic and freethinker as well.
Eh what? Don't claim it? Well I have already said here, at other points, that I am a freethinker, and that while a theist, I don't fit in with most other theists, maybe with no other theist. The problem with being ahead of my time, is that I am as lonely as a Maytag repairman ;-) And I agree, that some skepticism is necessary to be a freethinker. If one is rigid, one can't change. If you can't change, then you are dead. So like water, skepticism is necessary, just not too much of it.
Yes, the whole "historicity of Jesus" is fascinating ... because real or not, the "Jesus character" is extremely influential. I am afraid the Mel Brooks will never catch on as a messiah ;-) One will interpret the "story of Jesus" differently if you see him as a comic character, like in Life Of Brian. Jewish comics have been dying on stage for millennia!
What distinguishes a freethinker is ... that they thoroughly investigate something, weigh the various opinions, and either agree on their own with an existing opinion, or come up with their own.
I did my own derivative research on the "logia" of Jesus (those red words) ... and came to my own conclusion, at variance with the scholarly opinion. Namely, that the Gospel of Thomas is the Quelle ... or rather a later version of it. Because of theological "no go zones", scholarship can't agree with that, because it messes up the scholarly consensus on the Synoptics (which is just a hypothesis, it is unprovable). Scholarship also ignores the connections with Kabbalah and Indian sources for the material (Jesus may not have lived in Kashmir ... if he wasn't historical, he couldn't have) ... but there is a lot of Kashmiri theology (Mahayana and Vaisnava) theology in the NT. And let's totally ignore the Dead Sea Scrolls while we are at it!
Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2015, 11:22:54 AM
Eh what? Don't claim it? Well I have already said here, at other points, that I am a freethinker, and that while a theist, I don't fit in with most other theists, maybe with no other theist. The problem with being ahead of my time, is that I am as lonely as a Maytag repairman ;-) And I agree, that some skepticism is necessary to be a freethinker. If one is rigid, one can't change. If you can't change, then you are dead. So like water, skepticism is necessary, just not too much of it.
Yes, the whole "historicity of Jesus" is fascinating ... because real or not, the "Jesus character" is extremely influential. I am afraid the Mel Brooks will never catch on as a messiah ;-) One will interpret the "story of Jesus" differently if you see him as a comic character, like in Life Of Brian. Jewish comics have been dying on stage for millennia!
What distinguishes a freethinker is ... that they thoroughly investigate something, weigh the various opinions, and either agree on their own with an existing opinion, or come up with their own.
I did my own derivative research on the "logia" of Jesus (those red words) ... and came to my own conclusion, at variance with the scholarly opinion. Namely, that the Gospel of Thomas is the Quelle ... or rather a later version of it. Because of theological "no go zones", scholarship can't agree with that, because it messes up the scholarly consensus on the Synoptics (which is just a hypothesis, it is unprovable). Scholarship also ignores the connections with Kabbalah and Indian sources for the material (Jesus may not have lived in Kashmir ... if he wasn't historical, he couldn't have) ... but there is a lot of Kashmiri theology (Mahayana and Vaisnava) theology in the NT. And let's totally ignore the Dead Sea Scrolls while we are at it!
So, I think we do use those two terms mostly alike--freethinking and skeptic. And I agree that one can be so skeptical as to almost go blind--or one's own version of dogmatic.
As for the Indian connection to Jesus, I have not looked into that enough yet--but I know you have. And I've read some that suggest Jesus was alive but at a much earlier date. Some day I'll have to delve deeper in the gnostic theology of Paul--I suspect he did not think Jesus was a real physical person, either.
Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2015, 07:28:01 AMIt is hard to tolerate, let alone admire, people who one despises. Brights vs Dims.
And I opposed that term for exactly that reason - it implies that non-Brights are dim. Plus, it seemed self-aggrandizing.
Just us atheists and theists in my book. Whether you're bright or dim is up to you.
Mike CL and Hydra009 both deserve gold stars here ;-) Yes, the ego ... reminds me of the Aesop parable about the bull frog. We see a lot of self-promoting leaders detonate like that.
In comparing people, it is almost hopeless to control for extraneous variables. For instance an equally intelligent theist and atheist (what about the neutral non-theist?) ... sadly intelligent theists are hard to find ;-)) Atheists also enjoy shooting fish in a barrel.
Yes, Biblical scholarship is really hard, even if you don't attribute historicity to any of it, just as systems of thought. And yes, there were controversial figures connected to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and itinerant miracle workers too ... that pre-date and post-date Paul. I find it incredible that Paul would have believed in a historical vs allegorical Christ ... he would have definitely believed in Barnabas however ;-) But one can take that assumption how one will ... the non-historicity can debunk, but it can also elevate. The greatest things in the world are ideas, not people ... usually ideas control people, not the other way around.
Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2015, 07:24:33 PM
But one can take that assumption how one will ... the non-historicity can debunk, but it can also elevate. The greatest things in the world are ideas, not people ... usually ideas control people, not the other way around.
I like the way you put that. I agree that ideas drive people and movements. And it really does not always matter whether the idea or ideal came from history or myth.
Quote from: Baruch on June 18, 2015, 07:24:33 PMMike CL and Hydra009 both deserve gold stars here ;-) Yes, the ego ... reminds me of the Aesop parable about the bull frog.
It's more like the turtle and the scorpion. I'd help anyone across. But bear in mind that I can survive being stung and I can also survive longer underwater. :)
QuoteIn comparing people, it is almost hopeless to control for extraneous variables. For instance an equally intelligent theist and atheist (what about the neutral non-theist?)
Never met a neutral non-theist, personally. Is that someone who does or does not believe in a god?
QuoteAtheists also enjoy shooting fish in a barrel.
Guilty as charged. Easy targets are the best. My personal favorite punching bag is creationists. They're the best at being the worst, imho. It's like going up against people who don't believe in water. And they live on an island in the middle of the pacific. And the center of that island is a huge lake. And it rains on this island all the time. "If this so-called water exists, then God doesn't!!!" Well, okay, if you insist...
Non-theist = agnostic or Buddhist. A god for a Buddhist is just another kind of creature ... it isn't a Creator.
While I don't feel we shouldn't go to war that would be a bit extreme, I think we should be anti religion. It holds us back and anything that holds us back should be dispensed with A.S.A.P.
Prehistoric superstitions do not benefit any one.
the problem is that the religious see any argument as an attack. They see a passionate statement or argument as hostility when it often is not. Religion is one of those sore subjects for me. In social situations I avoid it as a topic unless I feel it's appropriate.
Quote from: doorknob on June 19, 2015, 08:33:55 AM
While I don't feel we shouldn't go to war that would be a bit extreme, I think we should be anti religion. It holds us back and anything that holds us back should be dispensed with A.S.A.P.
Agreed.
Also, we're not savages, and we while as atheists most of us hold a higher regard for people living a logical standard advanced beyond primitive cult beliefs, there is still the risk of those getting the worst possible idea, and doing what the guy did to those church goers (if he was attacking religious people or because they are black, we don't yet know).
The best way to fight against religion is with education, standing ground, and promoting a world without such things as a standard of life, though things like science and the best parts of just being human without belief fucking it all up.
Quote from: doorknob on June 19, 2015, 08:33:55 AM
Prehistoric superstitions do not benefit any one.
I like your points and I agree with them. Religion is not a good thing for our society--or any society. But those superstitions do benefit a small core--and therein lies the problem. Those superstitions do help the Pope and his hierarchy very much. The Roman Catholic Church is one of the oldest and maybe biggest corporation of all time; rich beyond belief and all based on those superstitions. The same for the large Protestant churches as well--the Osteen's, Swaggert's, Robertson's, Graham's, etc, are mega rich off their mega churches. The religious hierarchy is the root of all evil in the religious world.
Simple fact is, education is the biggest weapon against religion there is. Consider how for the longest time, in cultures, only the richest of people could get education, access to books literature and other academic minds, while the everyday man/woman was trapped in whatever small place in life he/she was living in, and the only access to something outside their way of life were things like religious leaders setting up shop in those places.
There is a reason why with the increase of internet access across the world, that people are becoming more and more secular, agnostic or atheist, its because access to information, other people, education and stories are more wide spread now, then the confined limited access to people and subjects it was before the invention of the net.
This is why religion is slowly decreasing in more progressive countries because of that access to information, while in countries like northern africa, the middle east and similar countries, they haven't caught up in the same regard as everyone else, in education and access to information.
So we know, just on matter of fact, education and information will push back the bronze age myths these people still try to still thrust into the modern domain.
Yes. But a war of words, not of arms; of brains, not of brawn. By getting the information out there, countering superstition and irrationality with reason, evidence and facts, spiced with humor, criticism, satire and understanding, and when appropriate, ridicule, we can win it.
Quote from: Baruch on June 19, 2015, 06:32:48 AM
Non-theist = agnostic or Buddhist. A god for a Buddhist is just another kind of creature ... it isn't a Creator.
Yeah, I know what you were getting at. But the simple fact is that there isn't a third option (http://wiki.ironchariots.org/?title=Atheist_vs._agnostic) between believing in a god and not believing in a god. The stances of belief and nonbelief are mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive. Agnosticism doesn't exist as a third option, but as a subcategory among both theism and atheism.
Buddhism, like Jainism and some schools of Hinduism, is a nontheistic religion. Buddhists do not believe in a Creator God or any kind of God. What term is used to describe someone who does not believe in a God? Atheist.
This also highlights an important fact about the term atheist - it's actually a rather broad and diverse category of people. Try to visualize the many different beliefs encompassed by theism - monotheists and polytheists galore with nothing necessarily in common except belief in a deity. Well, atheism much the same. There are both religious and nonreligious atheists with nothing necessarily in common except a lack of belief in a deity.
Hoped that help clear up some confusion.
Quote from: trdsf on June 10, 2015, 09:02:15 PM
I'd rather have a war on ignorance -- education will do a better job of wiping out religion than attacking it directly.
One of the first things I learned in elementary school that got me to think about the existence of God, was reading the story about The Emperor's New Clothes. I remember thinking "This story is about God. People say they see him just because they think they should, just like the people say they see the Emperor's clothes." There was a time when I was sure that was the author's intent, but maybe he was just writing a fun story. Naw, I still think that was his intent. The parallels are just too profound.
Quote from: SGOS on June 19, 2015, 11:58:39 AM
One of the first things I learned in elementary school that got me to think about the existence of God, was reading the story about The Emperor's New Clothes. I remember thinking "This story is about God. People say they see him just because they think they should, just like the people say they see the Emperor's clothes." There was a time when I was sure that was the author's intent, but maybe he was just writing a fun story. Naw, I still think that was his intent. The parallels are just too profound.
Ya know--until just now I had not thought of that interpretation of that story. I really like it!
Don't know about war but religion must be aggressively challenged and there should be no more exceptionalism and special pleading for these people. The tax exemption situation should be addressed. That would be a good start.
1liesalot - I agree ... skepticism is good, to a point. Responding to the challenges of others is good, to a point. Having the integrity and self confidence to challenge others yourself is good, to a point. I also agree with the tax exemption reduction idea ... if we put aside the whole question of taxes for now. Churches should be taxed as the political parties their clearly are.