http://biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm
i wonder how christians keep going.. the bullshittery of their book never ends.
This is not something new. It's the original bullshit. They live in a 'monarchy' and being honest with it. Queen of England thinks the same thing. That god placed her there.
Doesn't it sound just like what any tyrant would say, like Hitler? I can't believe we in the United States make a big deal out of royalty in England when they were a enemy at one time because they were imperialist with a Church of England agenda. Just think if they still had power what it would be like. Why should anyone be looked up to just for being born into royalty? Stupid!
Wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't dictated by Constantine himself. Probably a concept understood and used all the way back before the Egyptian dynasties.
Quote from: stromboli on June 10, 2015, 03:27:24 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't dictated by Constantine himself. Probably a concept understood and used all the way back before the Egyptian dynasties.
I do think this is one of the most ancient of ideas used by rulers even prior to writing. Neat and convenient. I'm in control because God set it up that way or I would not be in charge.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 10, 2015, 04:47:03 PM
I do think this is one of the most ancient of ideas used by rulers even prior to writing. Neat and convenient. I'm in control because God set it up that way or I would not be in charge.
no question the Pharaonic rulers of Egypt set themselves up as gods, and they got the idea from somewhere. I think if you did a really thorough study of religion- there are probably books on this I haven't seen- an early religion came up with a set of ideas that worked as a way to control their populace and put themselves in power, and other later cultures borrowed and expanded on the same ideas. Certainly we know the borrowed mythologies that became attached to Jesus, no reason other ideas didn't come with that as well.
Quote from: stromboli on June 10, 2015, 06:27:31 PM
no question the Pharaonic rulers of Egypt set themselves up as gods, and they got the idea from somewhere. I think if you did a really thorough study of religion- there are probably books on this I haven't seen- an early religion came up with a set of ideas that worked as a way to control their populace and put themselves in power, and other later cultures borrowed and expanded on the same ideas. Certainly we know the borrowed mythologies that became attached to Jesus, no reason other ideas didn't come with that as well.
Yeah, that makes a great deal of sense. I have a little pet idea about how it could have started. I imagine in any very early group, the biggest, strongest male pretty much got what he wanted. And I can just see the local, caveman geek brooding over in a corner thinking things over. He knew he could not control the big guy. But what caused the sun to rise or set? Rain? Fire? Thunder? Clouds?--Well, just about any of those odd things that happen--or didn't happen. Could it be something in the sky, something unseen and maybe he could figure out what. And so he became the first shaman or priest and took some of the big guy's power for himself. And so there came to be two centers of power--might and religion. And the two have been the best of friends ever since.
Quote from: Solitary on June 10, 2015, 03:20:27 PM
Doesn't it sound just like what any tyrant would say, like Hitler? I can't believe we in the United States make a big deal out of royalty in England when they were a enemy at one time because they were imperialist with a Church of England agenda. Just think if they still had power what it would be like. Why should anyone be looked up to just for being born into royalty? Stupid!
Speaking as a very anti royal British citizen. I am incline to agree with all of that. There are more of us anti-monarchists over here than the media likes to admit. They are a decidedly sub average but ruthless dynasty and centuries of interbreeding has not helped.
And speaking of the Bad Book, someone referred me to the following examples of yet more bat shittery.
When the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp. [Numbers 11:1, King James]
And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.†Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. [Numbers 21:5-6, New American Standard]
[God says:] I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives. [Jeremiah 19:9, New International]
And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel. [Numbers 25:4, King James]
Following more complaints about starvation. God also forced his chosen people to eat quail until it came out of their noses ... again, this was literally. On another occasion, He told them He had a mind (as a punishment for some minor offence) to FORCE "daughters to sleep with their fathers; brothers with their sisters and mothers with their sons".
In yet another instance, God made someone eat shit every day for a week or something. Literally eat shit.
This biblical sky God is one sick puppy. There isn't a fetish or perversion he doesn't indulge himself in. We have Cannibalism; incest, scatology and endless murder sprees. There's even a snake fetish thrown in for good measure. And I wonder sometimes if a spot of necrophilia is being contemplated once the Second Coming and the Rapture are out of the way and the corpses are taken from their earthly tombs and hoovered up to heaven with the rest of the righteous.
How can you get down on your knees and pray to a monstrous shit head like that? I would love for any believer to address these things and say why it's okay to worship this heavenly idiot of the scriptures and why, in fact, would they want anything to do with a peddler of horrible, pornographic, hate-spewing bullshit. Satan is redundant, ffs. God can run the whole evil crap shoot by Himself.
And there's nothing to be done for it despite all the apologists because you simply can't polish a turd.
Somebody praise Jeeeeeeeeeeeesus
Comparative Bronze Age ... though actually the OT is an Iron Age fictional account of the Bronze Age. You have to read the Babylonian/Sumerian originals to really get this. Originally the gods of Mesopotamia were a bunch of entitled layabouts ... who created mankind to till the fields and mind the orchards and flock for the gods. The authority of the gods first came down from Heaven to Earth ... in the early Sumerian period ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu ... look at the recreation of the port facility. These people are the Marsh Arabs of today in S Iraq ... that Saddam almost exterminated. Before the Iraq/Iran war ... they still built read houses and reed boats the same as in the old days. Anyway, the humans created too much noise and the gods couldn't get any sleep ... this is why the gods tried to destroy humanity ;-)
This is the founding of a city aka organized crime unit. Though they had a lot of synergy, because it combined fishing, farming and animal husbandry. The king of the place, like Gilgamesh in slightly later nearby Uruk ... would claim that his mother (representing sovereignty) was a goddess. Most momma boys feel this way ;-)) In ancient Ireland, and under many British queens ... this same principle operated ... the queen represented the land and the people. What we call the legislature today. The king's job has been split between executive and judiciary. The city is still parasitic on the countryside and seas ... and now that the US is 95% urban, we have reached peak urban gangs. In the US we have a "civic religion" that substitutes for a uniform "established" church.
In some respects, though there are some older throwbacks ... the OT is pretty good Iron Age legislation ... complete with kosher hygiene. The Canaanites and their predecessors were even more primitive ... infant sacrifice anyone? Oh ... we still do that, don't we ;-(
Quote from: Goon on June 10, 2015, 03:07:49 PM
http://biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm
i wonder how christians keep going.. the bullshittery of their book never ends.
Well why look at them. Lets just look at the devil. We can see it one of two ways.
1. God really did trust him and promoted him.
2. God did not trust him and promoted him expecting him to fall.
Now the first seems the most obvious when we consider God is omnisicient. But we simply fail in looking beyond our noses. God is incapable of evil. There is no darkness in God at all 1 John 1:5. Our human minds do battle with this. But our inability to fully grasp God does not make God guilty when the evidence points to God having honest and best expectations. God appointed the devil to a higher position because he earned it and was at the time trustworthy.
Quote from: 1liesalot on June 25, 2015, 11:18:44 PM
Speaking as a very anti royal British citizen. I am incline to agree with all of that. There are more of us anti-monarchists over here than the media likes to admit. They are a decidedly sub average but ruthless dynasty and centuries of interbreeding has not helped.
The media in the uk always portray the royals as being popular and loved by the whole country, but more and more people are waking up to the truth that this is just not the case, especially in scotland where in my experience, the majority of the population dont give a damn about them.
What really annoys me is the fact that this is one of the richest families on the fkn planet yet they are still subsidised by uk taxpayers, basically, we pay their fucking expenses, and that is disgusting....
Quote from: KingJ on June 30, 2015, 10:18:19 AM
Well why look at them. Lets just look at the devil. We can see it one of two ways.
1. God really did trust him and promoted him.
2. God did not trust him and promoted him expecting him to fall.
Now the first seems the most obvious when we consider God is omnisicient. But we simply fail in looking beyond our noses. God is incapable of evil. There is no darkness in God at all 1 John 1:5. Our human minds do battle with this. But our inability to fully grasp God does not make God guilty when the evidence points to God having honest and best expectations. God appointed the devil to a higher position because he earned it and was at the time trustworthy.
Green Bottle ... I really sympathize ... my Scottish ancestors sympathize too. Being Scottish is like being Mexican, except "too far from G-d and too close to England". But don't Scots have an agenda? Y'all know that the present Queen isn't a Stewart, right? (rhetorical question). I feel sorry for the Highlanders that the last Stewart led to their deaths ... the Bonnie Prince should have stuck to the kitchen and his dresses, make a nice wife for someone ;-)
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
Does this only count with the old-school patriarchal monarchies? Like if we vote on someone, we take God's ability to control the government out of it? If that's the case, then it sounds like God isn't all that omnipotent.
If however God can control elections by moving the holy spirit through the hearts of voters, that would mean that anything those government officials did was an extension of God's work. Like the Affordable Care Act.
Great question TomFoolery. The Founding Fathers (the leaders, not the peasants) were Freemasons and Christians (primarily the former). This is why rights are inalienable. And their metaphysics of that time would have said, they were extending that rule ... of rule ... to the the Middle Class, from just the Upper Class. There would still be an Upper Class, only not as dominant nor as far away ... and non-property holders, women, Indians and slaves would be wards of that state, not real citizens. We have since extended this democratically to all these excluded groups ... but I don't think the Elite believe in divine appointment ... though they look with envy on the monarchs of Europe. Also since then we have basically ignored that rights are inalienable, because we assume our government bodies can do whatever they will to do, including curtail rights ... in our civil religion, the party or the branch of government, or level of government, is our new god ... provided the right people get elected, and those people make the right decisions, otherwise we can discard them at will also. Today, Goldman-Sachs is doing "G-d's work" as per Lloyd Blankfein. Certainly the neo-libs think that their shit doesn't stink, because they are doing what they do, pro-bono at the behest of George Soros. The neocons less so ... they serve Pharaoh aka Warren Buffett. The Koch brothers match up with the Pharaoh's magicians in the animated version of Prince of Egypt.
I actually kept reading in Romans Chapter 13 and I'll be honest, Romans 13:1-5 is certainly ironic if you hate Barack Obama, SCOTUS and homosexuals, and somewhat vindicating for everyone else. And Romans 13:8-10 has wisdom even a bitter old atheist like myself could learn from.
Quote1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. 5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,†and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.†10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Unfortunately as Paul points out in Romans ... he knows right from wrong, but keeps avoiding doing right, and not avoiding doing wrong. Also the quote on "love your neighbor" comes from the OT passage about loving the stranger aka Gentile. This was an under text to first century Jews ... since they hated Gentiles and had good reason to do so (particularly after Paul's time). Paul may have written things quite different, given what the Romans did to Jews for the next 100 years.
Also there is the problem with translation ... there are three Greek words for love; agape, philos and eros ... and Paul is using agape or communal love, not brother to brother love nor erotic love. Also Paul could see the war coming, of Jew against Jew, and Jew against Gentile .. and was trying to prevent it. For him, eschaton was the Kingdom of G-d on Earth ... which wasn't the man ... Jesus, but the community of messianic people (both Jew and Gentile) ... a kind of 60s commune.
The Jewish community in Rome, is who he was writing to. A group that had risen up in riots not much before. This community existed for 2000 years ... until it was betrayed to Hitler by Pope Pius.
But isn't pulling apart the translation and going through it word for word and considering the original context of scripture a bit dangerous for Christians, a bit like a loose thread in a sweater?
It is dangerous for Jews also. The rabbinate is an ancient committee like the ayatollahs of Iran ... they don't like independent thinking. Unfortunately for and English speaker, they have translation problems ... a Greek Christian wouldn't but would have anachronism and confirmation bias. And of course most Jews don't care about the OT(Tanakh) ... the reading of the interpretations of the interpretations (Talmud) is sufficient for them ;-)
Yes, a bit like a loose thread on a sweater. Originally the books had no verses, not chapters and no punctuation. Just a continuous stream of letters (and in the Hebrew, with the vowels left out). In Kabbalah, the OT is considered one long encoding of the creation of the universe, since creation was accomplished by the permutation of Hebrew letters. Also of course, Gentile speakers have everything backwards ... since Hebrew reads from right to left ... the way G-d intended ;-)
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 02, 2015, 08:28:09 AM
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
Does this only count with the old-school patriarchal monarchies? Like if we vote on someone, we take God's ability to control the government out of it? If that's the case, then it sounds like God isn't all that omnipotent.
If however God can control elections by moving the holy spirit through the hearts of voters, that would mean that anything those government officials did was an extension of God's work. Like the Affordable Care Act.
No no..The ACA was handed down by the reptilian, commie, Muslim, Nazi, Black Panther god from Kenya. :lol:
Wait, shouldn't all our laws just pop right out of the sky and nobody but god in charge of everything?
Oh wait. . God is sooooooo powerful he has to delegate power because he's to busy planning on who goes to H E double and who gets to float on clouds kissing his holy ass for eternity. .
Of course! Makes perfect sense, eh?
Quote from: Baruch on July 02, 2015, 08:18:58 AM
Green Bottle ... I really sympathize ... my Scottish ancestors sympathize too. Being Scottish is like being Mexican, except "too far from G-d and too close to England". But don't Scots have an agenda? Y'all know that the present Queen isn't a Stewart, right? (rhetorical question). I feel sorry for the Highlanders that the last Stewart led to their deaths ... the Bonnie Prince should have stuck to the kitchen and his dresses, make a nice wife for someone ;-)
Yes Baruch our Agenda, get the fk away from Wastemonster and run our own affairs, but they will never let us go considering we subsidise them, and not as they would tell it, the other way about.
The queen, well she and her rotten family are a bastardised mix of german/greek/english an fuck knows what else, if we got our independance she , or whoever else was sitting on the throne would cease to be a legitimate scottish monarch, and that day cant come soon enough .
The last true king of Scotland was Robert the Bruce , who kicked the english arses at Bannockburn in 1314. Sa'or Alba Gu Brath.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2mmio1i.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/5yw4dg.jpg)
Well I don't believe in bad blood, but y'all know, that since Queen Mary (wife of King George V) is descended from Dracula ... so is the present Queen:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-charles/9656769/Prince-Charles-heir-to-Draculas-blood-line.html
King Robert The Bruce ... knew how to kick ass. His brother Edward, not so much, otherwise Ireland would be a part of Scotland around 1300 .. long before the Galloglasses migrated there after the O'Neills were deposed in around 1600.
Quote from: Goon on June 10, 2015, 03:07:49 PM
http://biblehub.com/romans/13-1.htm
i wonder how christians keep going.. the bullshittery of their book never ends.
For your title to be correct we would need evidence of Christians kneeling to pagan leaders.
All this verse is saying is that we must be subject to the law / not resist it. Nero wants to kill us for reading the bible and singing hyms, let him kill us.
I do believe God has always had a problem finding good leaders :wall:. Humans are useless at it.
Christians kneeling to pagan Romans ... like the bishops at Nicea? Eusebius wrote all about it in History of the Church ... and Eusebius was Constantine's bitch. They then converted an out-of-state pacifist movement into an in-state government department of complete reversal ... including endorsing Christian's executing heretics and approving of Christian soldiers. Protestants are just bad Catholics, right? If they were the reinstitution of the pre-Constantine church ... they would have to be Jewish.