I've noticed that some atheists, who were former Christians, have dismissed the Abrahamic religions altogether when they've renounced Christianity. Afterwards, they claim that they went on to investigate other non-Abrahamic religions (such as Hinduism and Buddhism) before becoming atheists.
If this applies to you, then why? Do you think that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are conflicting versions of the same tales and can, therefore, be dismissed altogether if one is proven false?
If not, then why also? Do you think that one has an advantage over the others? Did you investigate Islam or Judaism before dismissing the Abrahamic religions?
I would say I began questioning Christianity as an adolescent, since it seemed like the nice guy in the sky who made rules we were supposed to live by didn't seem to be watching, anymore than Santa Claus seemed to care if I had been bad the entire year with the exception of the month of December when I was constantly reminded he was watching.
I went along with it for a few years until I was in my early teens. I actually explored other Christian denominations first, and they all just seemed like different rules in the same game. When I was 16 my aunt got me a job at the Christian bookstore where she worked, and I read through quite a bit of the apologetics and testimonial sections. It all just seemed like a Ponzi scheme. It was for that reason I tossed all the Abrahamic religions out at once like the baby with the bathwater.
They're different on points, but ultimately the same in that thousands of years ago, men started writing down things about an all-powerful guy that came up with a bunch of rules that make no f***ing sense in any practical way and threatened punishment in bizarre forms for breaking them. I went through a phase where I really hated organized religion.
Then I took an intro to world religions class my freshman year of college that I found to be extremely enlightening. I learned about the major players that you listed and realized there was wisdom in all their teachings, even if their adherents often lacked it. I realized I didn't have the faith to go along and actually believe in any of them, but I sort of thought Buddhism was nice until I joined the military. I studied all kinds of religions on my own, read many religious texts, reflected on a lot of religious and moral problems and generally should have smoked a lot of pot had I not been in the military.
A year of being in Afghanistan and seeing maimed troops, maimed Afghan kids and a lot of hatred, I kind of gave up on Buddhism too. I was just jaded. I would still call myself agnostic by that point.
When I got out of the Army and went back to college to start a new degree in biochemistry, I sort of fell into the "church" of science. About 2-3 years ago, I finally made the full conversion to atheism.
So in a way, it's funny. When the atheism thing comes to light, many people rush to me, feeling confident that I just don't know enough about religion (usually Christianity) to believe but that they can easily right that wrong. On the contrary, I know too much about religion to believe in any of them. Religions are a paradox in that they are all very much the same while being completely the opposite of everything they all stand for, which just makes them excuses and explanations. I don't believe in anything supernatural. I think all the weird shit in the universe just has yet to be explained by science and as for the overarching question of "why are we here" or "what is the meaning of life?," well, I don't bother asking that question. I just focus on being here and living my life.
It is not a set of dominoes to knock over one by one after studying them. It is when one comes to the understanding that any of of them is simply impossible by their own admission that the rest simply fall over by themselves. I did not need to study Islam, once i realized the concept of gods were as easily declared myths in the past by the victor, that gods of any period were just as easily dismissed as myths.
I did not study religion as much as I studied history, anthropology and science. Dismiss one god and the rest fall into the abyss.
Now that you have me thinking about it, even as a child with doubts, I didn't dwell on Christianity per se. My nagging question always centered around my lack of evidence for God. In the back of my mind, I assumed that if there were a god or gods, all religions just worshiped him in their own way. As I drifted away from believing in a god, the relevance of all religions became, well, irrelevant.
Somewhere around high school, I started considering other religions, not as being possibly more viable, but just as interesting observations. I can't remember ever feeling anxiety over choosing the right religion. For some reason, I thought if I could prove a god existed, I could just dispense with selecting a sect or a religion.
Along those same lines, even as a child, I never made a big deal about Jesus. Yeah, he was part of some absurd trinity and all, but I never prayed to him. In my mind, God was always like the CEO. Jesus always struck me as a minor player.
I started to consider other religions because the overwhelming majority of people claim to be affiliated with some sort of deity. Our cultural infrastructure is basically religion-based, worldwide. And to be honest, I kept thinking "People have PhD's in religious studies and dedicate their whole lives to it. They must know what they are talking about, so what am I not getting?"
I did not practice other religions, I just considered them. That was about as far as it went. I discovered that Buddhism is not really a religion, but that's probably the one I'd pick if someone had a gun to my head.
They're all a load of crap. I dismissed the idea that there is a sky god or any other kind of deity just after I stopped believing in Santa Claus.
I certainly dispensed with monotheism in all its forms when I first broke away from Catholicism (although it's hard to call Catholicism monotheistic -- there are thousands of demigods, we just call them 'saints') and became a practicing Wiccan. And eventually, even that failed to answer my philosophical questions, particularly when I realized that when I prayed, it wasn't for things to turn out the way I wanted, but for me to understand why they were turning out a particular way. And then one day it dawned on me that no, good things happen because they do, and bad things happen because they do, and I don't 'deserve' one any more than I do the other.
It was very like the moment of satori that Zen Buddhism strives for: the realization that I am a natural product of a natural universe and any meaning involved in that is only in what meaning I give it. There was no invisible sky daddy (or invisible sky mommy and sky daddy). If something bad happens to me, it's a lot easier to deal with when I don't have the idea that I "deserved" it or "earned" it lurking in the background. It's bad enough working through a rough patch in life without also having to deal with feeling guilty about it.
Quote from: trdsf on May 25, 2015, 09:03:18 PM
I certainly dispensed with monotheism in all its forms when I first broke away from Catholicism (although it's hard to call Catholicism monotheistic -- there are thousands of demigods, we just call them 'saints') and became a practicing Wiccan. And eventually, even that failed to answer my philosophical questions, particularly when I realized that when I prayed, it wasn't for things to turn out the way I wanted, but for me to understand why they were turning out a particular way. And then one day it dawned on me that no, good things happen because they do, and bad things happen because they do, and I don't 'deserve' one any more than I do the other.
It was very like the moment of satori that Zen Buddhism strives for: the realization that I am a natural product of a natural universe and any meaning involved in that is only in what meaning I give it. There was no invisible sky daddy (or invisible sky mommy and sky daddy). If something bad happens to me, it's a lot easier to deal with when I don't have the idea that I "deserved" it or "earned" it lurking in the background. It's bad enough working through a rough patch in life without also having to deal with feeling guilty about it.
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Well Forrest Gump solved that for me. "Shit happens!" Why? Because. It's that simple. Bad things are part of life. Besides, it not really what happens to you but how you react to that happening.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 25, 2015, 09:55:03 PM
Well Forrest Gump solved that for me. "Shit happens!" Why? Because. It's that simple. Bad things are part of life. Besides, it not really what happens to you but how you react to that happening.
Pretty much, yeah. As a philosophy of life, it's truer than most others I could name.
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on May 25, 2015, 07:09:15 AM
I've noticed that some atheists, who were former Christians, have dismissed the Abrahamic religions altogether when they've renounced Christianity. Afterwards, they claim that they went on to investigate other non-Abrahamic religions (such as Hinduism and Buddhism) before becoming atheists.
If this applies to you, then why? Do you think that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are conflicting versions of the same tales and can, therefore, be dismissed altogether if one is proven false?
If not, then why also? Do you think that one has an advantage over the others? Did you investigate Islam or Judaism before dismissing the Abrahamic religions?
After I started becoming increasingly skeptical of Christianity, I did analyze Judaism and Islam a bit. I took a class on world religions in high school and another one in college. I did get exposed - hell, I'm still getting exposed - to various world religions, new religious movements, and lesser-known Christian denominations. I'm no expert, but I do have a grasp of the basic beliefs of the major religions of the world.
I've started noticing similarities between them. I'm in danger of oversimplifying things here, but there are elements that used in many (but not necessarily all) religions the world over: a priestly class that leads religious rituals, scheduled religious rituals (weekly services, holy day once a year, solstice celebrations, prayer 5 times a day, etc), ritual used to bargain with some sort of supernatural being/force to confer some benefit for the believer (good crops, healing, etc), a creation myth, legendary figures (Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, etc), feelings of reverence or transcendence, etc.
I'm in even more serious risk of oversimplifying here, but if I could sum up religion as concisely as possible, religion is "here's how the world is, here's what adherents must believe and how they must behave, and pass this idea along". So what we have now are ideas that out-competed their ancient rivals one way or the other. Ideas that resonated with people. Ideas that were very good at propagating themselves. Not necessarily true ideas, but successful ideas. Popular ideas. Powerful ideas.
I have also studied secularism and humanism and religious skepticism. I found out how magicians can fool people into thinking that they have superhuman powers. I found out how superstitions start and take hold within a populace. I found out how hearsay can become dogma, how historical figures can become legends, and how hoaxes persist long after they've been revealed.
Afterwards, I started openly opposing certain fundamentals of Christianity: namely, faith and revelation. I can't say that I've looked into every religion on the planet and appraised it, but I have serious objections to ideas that form the basis of a great many religions: ideas involving other planes of existence, supernatural beings, magic, miracles, etc.
So, while invalidating Christianity doesn't necessarily mean that Islam is untrue, there are certain ideas held in common among many popular religions. And finding fault with these common ideas does most definitely cast a harsh light on multiple religions at once.
The Abrahamic religions are all centered around Yahweh, so by rejecting Christianity, one rejects Yahweh and therefore all Abrahamic religions, which follow some similar rules and beliefs. Besides, Judaism is hard to convert to, and Islam has even more stringent rules than Christianity. A lot of people who reject Christianity do so because of all the ridiculous rules, figuring that an intelligent and compassionate god wouldn't set up such a ridiculous system of rules for its adherents to follow.
So unfamiliar with more "exotic" religions, many former Christians to the religions of the East, or religions whose rules may make more sense to them, like Wicca or Paganism.
The smarter ones sooner or later figure out that it's all a load of bullshit.
I never really looked into other religions. Frankly I just hated the social obligation that religions tend to bring. So I didn't want to trade in one social obligation for another. Kind of like how I didn't just get another woman to bitch at me after I got divorced.
Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on May 25, 2015, 07:09:15 AM
I've noticed that some atheists, who were former Christians, have dismissed the Abrahamic religions altogether when they've renounced Christianity. Afterwards, they claim that they went on to investigate other non-Abrahamic religions (such as Hinduism and Buddhism) before becoming atheists.
I've glanced at terms here and there about other religions.
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If this applies to you, then why? Do you think that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are conflicting versions of the same tales and can, therefore, be dismissed altogether if one is proven false?
Republican social conservatives insist that they don't worship the same God as Muslims. Whatever. To me it makes no difference if they are exactly the same in every last detail or not. Allah says he created human specifically so that they would worship him, so he's literally no different from the Christian concept, which is exactly the same.
"Well Jesus Christ died so you wouldn't go to hell..."
Well shit, Isis, Amun, and Ra never damned me to hell in the first place. Ancient Egyptian gods: 1. Christian God: 0.
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If not, then why also? Do you think that one has an advantage over the others?
Judaism has an advantage to me in that the members are less pushy and obnoxious. No missionary to speak of. Even the Hassidic Jews don't make a point of bothering other people.
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Did you investigate Islam or Judaism before dismissing the Abrahamic religions?
Nope. I did look into some of their terms and concepts after the fact, but that was it. There's no point in changing one shackle for another.
Quote from: Savior2006 on May 30, 2015, 07:31:38 PM
Republican social conservatives insist that they don't worship the same God as Muslims. Whatever. To me it makes no difference if they are exactly the same in every last detail or not. Allah says he created human specifically so that they would worship him, so he's literally no different from the Christian concept, which is exactly the same.
Sometimes when I'm driving, I get bored and I tune to one of those radio preachers. So this one day, the sermon is about some Muslim that said to the preacher, "We should not fight. We both worship the same God, just under different names." Well as usual, this set the radio preacher on fire (if their not on fire, they aren't that interesting, so they apparently invent topics that set them aflame). So he proceeds to rip this Muslim a new one, or so he says. "No, we do not, Sir. Your god is bla, bla, bla, and mine is bla, bla, bla." (This format gets repeated with the preacher numerating the differences, which are clearly black and white. It goes on for pretty much the entire sermon). Well, before I tuned to another station, I was convinced. The Christian God is wonderful, and the Muslim god is an asshole. :biggrin:
Quote from: SGOS on May 30, 2015, 08:02:43 PM
Sometimes when I'm driving, I get bored and I tune to one of those radio preachers. So this one day, the sermon is about some Muslim that said to the preacher, "We should not fight. We both worship the same God, just under different names." Well as usual, this set the radio preacher on fire (if their not on fire, they aren't that interesting, so they apparently invent topics that set them aflame). So he proceeds to rip this Muslim a new one, or so he says. "No, we do not, Sir. Your god is bla, bla, bla, and mine is bla, bla, bla." (This format gets repeated with the preacher numerating the differences, which are clearly black and white. It goes on for pretty much the entire sermon). Well, before I tuned to another station, I was convinced. The Christian God is wonderful, and the Muslim god is an asshole. :biggrin:
Yeah, I do that too. I call it 'for shits and giggles'--don't know where I picked that up. :) I also do that when I can't sleep at night and I start channel flipping and will linger on some of these religious idiots as a form of fun. Can't stay in any one place for long. But there are sooooooo many!
Quote from: SGOS on May 30, 2015, 08:02:43 PM
Sometimes when I'm driving, I get bored and I tune to one of those radio preachers. So this one day, the sermon is about some Muslim that said to the preacher, "We should not fight. We both worship the same God, just under different names." Well as usual, this set the radio preacher on fire (if their not on fire, they aren't that interesting, so they apparently invent topics that set them aflame). So he proceeds to rip this Muslim a new one, or so he says. "No, we do not, Sir. Your god is bla, bla, bla, and mine is bla, bla, bla." (This format gets repeated with the preacher numerating the differences, which are clearly black and white. It goes on for pretty much the entire sermon). Well, before I tuned to another station, I was convinced. The Christian God is wonderful, and the Muslim god is an asshole. :biggrin:
So he missed the part where the Muslim said they shouldn't fight? Alrighty then.
I kind of dismissed all religions in general after studying evolution. I just found the concept of a vicious world that, somehow, we've conquered, to be so much more interesting.
I reject abrahamic religions because all of their descriptions of god describe something pretty evil. I reject the idea of god itself simply for lack of evidence though and also a lot of deep critical thinking. I prefer science to religion as science is a lot more trust worthy IMO.