Started a thread a few days ago about why people become religious. These were the main reasons:
1--Hope for an afterlife; fear of death.
2--Socialization
3--Tradition
4--Searching for answers to problems.
5--Comfort and assurance.
6--Searching for purpose and/or meaning in life.
7--A person feels it provides a set of morals and a value system.
8--Lack of responsibility; a lot of people do not take responsibility for their actions and choices and the world they create around them. They look for something to blame and something to send their problems to.
9. Know/control the unknowable.
10. Lack of training or ability of critical thinking skills.
11. To obtain order; gain a comprehensive worldview. (could be related to #6, but it does seem a bit different to me)
If these are the main reasons a person seeks and keeps a religion, how can that change? I see the main reason a person is religious is because of tradition. They were raised in it so they simply stayed in it without thinking much about it. Looking at a population map of the world supports that religion is traditional. The most important factor of what religion you will be is where you are born. That alone, should give a reasonable person a pause--should make them wonder why that would be. Since the typical theist is born into it, they are also socialized into it--their social network is established in that religion early. So, how can this change? How can religion become less and less a percentage of our populations?
If what I have read lately is true, the younger generation is already breaking away from their native religion; they are questioning more than the older generation and many are now only nominal theists. Europe has also done a good job of breaking away from theist ties. Seems to me that education is a key element in this--breaking away from what you were born into. That does seem like it would take quite a bit to accomplish--breaking away from tradition of your parents and family is not an easy task. Do you guys suppose the internet plays any role in this? I see the internet as being quite the tool for bringing the inconsistencies of theism out into the open more and more. Hopefully, this will lead to more questioning of whatever religion they are a member of. And I see this as having much more of an effect on the younger generations as I see the internet effect as only growing larger.
One aspect of being atheist is that atheism is basically a negative belief and only unites in one tiny area--nonbelief in a god/gods. Atheists are like a herd of cats--they don't easily join groups. But I see this as a trend on the upswing--atheists joining groups. It would be nice if that trend could accelerate a bit, though. I'd love to join a local group--but that will not happen anytime soon in this area.
Looking at the reasons people join and stay in a religion demonstrates what a strangle hold it has on our imaginations and emotions. What will make a change? Only education. But I am optimistic about that change. I do see that strangle hold slipping more and more as the internet grows in importance. I am not saying that I see the corpse of religion in a pine box just yet--but I do see bits of light shining through religion's armor. I won't see the end of it, nor will my grandchildren or maybe even theirs, but I do see it's effects becoming less and less.
According to a recent Pew study the percentage of atheists is projected to rise in the United States but decline world wide. This study predicts by 2050 six out of ten people on Earth will be Christian or Muslim. I think exposure to ideas on the internet definitely helps people who are interested in atheism but the internet also can be an echo chamber just reinforcing what people want to hear. For example, it is easy to only look at websites that are Christian-based and unfriend anyone who doesn't share you views. Recently I've been reflecting on why I'm not Christian because based on my social environment I should be.
Education.
And lots of it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 05, 2015, 09:23:47 AM
Started a thread a few days ago about why people become religious. These were the main reasons:
1--Hope for an afterlife; fear of death.
2--Socialization
3--Tradition
4--Searching for answers to problems.
5--Comfort and assurance.
6--Searching for purpose and/or meaning in life.
7--A person feels it provides a set of morals and a value system.
8--Lack of responsibility; a lot of people do not take responsibility for their actions and choices and the world they create around them. They look for something to blame and something to send their problems to.
9. Know/control the unknowable.
10. Lack of training or ability of critical thinking skills.
11. To obtain order; gain a comprehensive worldview. (could be related to #6, but it does seem a bit different to me)
If these are the main reasons a person seeks and keeps a religion, how can that change? I see the main reason a person is religious is because of tradition. They were raised in it so they simply stayed in it without thinking much about it. Looking at a population map of the world supports that religion is traditional. The most important factor of what religion you will be is where you are born. That alone, should give a reasonable person a pause--should make them wonder why that would be. Since the typical theist is born into it, they are also socialized into it--their social network is established in that religion early. So, how can this change? How can religion become less and less a percentage of our populations?
If what I have read lately is true, the younger generation is already breaking away from their native religion; they are questioning more than the older generation and many are now only nominal theists. Europe has also done a good job of breaking away from theist ties. Seems to me that education is a key element in this--breaking away from what you were born into. That does seem like it would take quite a bit to accomplish--breaking away from tradition of your parents and family is not an easy task. Do you guys suppose the internet plays any role in this? I see the internet as being quite the tool for bringing the inconsistencies of theism out into the open more and more. Hopefully, this will lead to more questioning of whatever religion they are a member of. And I see this as having much more of an effect on the younger generations as I see the internet effect as only growing larger.
One aspect of being atheist is that atheism is basically a negative belief and only unites in one tiny area--nonbelief in a god/gods. Atheists are like a herd of cats--they don't easily join groups. But I see this as a trend on the upswing--atheists joining groups. It would be nice if that trend could accelerate a bit, though. I'd love to join a local group--but that will not happen anytime soon in this area.
Looking at the reasons people join and stay in a religion demonstrates what a strangle hold it has on our imaginations and emotions. What will make a change? Only education. But I am optimistic about that change. I do see that strangle hold slipping more and more as the internet grows in importance. I am not saying that I see the corpse of religion in a pine box just yet--but I do see bits of light shining through religion's armor. I won't see the end of it, nor will my grandchildren or maybe even theirs, but I do see it's effects becoming less and less.
I think what you wrote is accurate, to me anyway. It's not easy to be an atheist and be responsible for your decisions and actions, because you can't say they deserve it because it says so in the bible, it is infallible and God's word. Solitary
Of all, fear will always be the hardest to overcome.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 05, 2015, 09:57:40 AM
According to a recent Pew study the percentage of atheists is projected to rise in the United States but decline world wide. This study predicts by 2050 six out of ten people on Earth will be Christian or Muslim. I think exposure to ideas on the internet definitely helps people who are interested in atheism but the internet also can be an echo chamber just reinforcing what people want to hear. For example, it is easy to only look at websites that are Christian-based and unfriend anyone who doesn't share you views. Recently I've been reflecting on why I'm not Christian because based on my social environment I should be.
I can see why I became an atheist. Neither of my parents were church goers at any point in their lives. My brothers and I went out of curiosity and maybe the social part. But that was short lived. As an adult I search for spiritual answers to life's questions. At times I felt I was close, but that proved to be an empty promise. But you GSO, must have had a much more difficult time coming to atheism being surrounded by theists. I can only imagine. I also see that the internet can be a double edged sword in this. But I tend to think that the young are much more likely to question and if they have to, sneak out into the internet to poke around. I hope that the internet ends up being more a boon for atheism than theism.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on May 05, 2015, 10:58:06 AM
Education.
And lots of it.
I agree. But many in this country have the desire and ability to force stupidity into our school system. There is a growing trend to allow creationism to be taught as a foil to evolution. Christian educators are always finding ways to insert god of jesus into their classrooms. It is a constant battle, especially in the South.
Quote from: Solitary on May 05, 2015, 11:17:09 AM
I think what you wrote is accurate, to me anyway. It's not easy to be an atheist and be responsible for your decisions and actions, because you can't say they deserve it because it says so in the bible, it is infallible and God's word. Solitary
Sol, I love this quote of yours: "It's not easy to be an atheist and be responsible for your decisions and actions"
That is so true--and ironic. I had a catholic brother-in-law term Unity (a movement that teaches the 'christ consciousness' lives within each of us. But it is our responsibility to direct it and discover it's full potential ourselves.) as 'easy'. He was a full-blown catholic who was studying to become a deacon and sneered at what we (my wife and I) were involved in. He seemed to think that the rigid set of rules and ritual was not easy. He is now a fallen away catholic, so he is not nearly as close to being insane as he was. Atheism demands that we think for ourselves and that we are responsible for our actions--now and forever. Theists have all kinds of ways out that allow them to do as they wish and then get instant forgiveness.
Quote from: aitm on May 05, 2015, 11:19:02 AM
Of all, fear will always be the hardest to overcome.
Fear is a big, big thing, no doubt. And religions are masters at using it. How can that be changed? Is it purely an individual thing or can education make a dent in that?
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 05, 2015, 11:29:32 AM
But you GSO, must have had a much more difficult time coming to atheism being surrounded by theists.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 05, 2015, 11:31:46 AM
It is a constant battle, especially in the South.
Christianity is really pervasive here. I work at a hospital and I can't think of anyone I work with who isn't religious to some degree. Actually there is one guy who isn't religious but he believes ancient aliens have genetically altered humans and have intervened throughout history, electric universe and such. Based on Facebook posts, my high school classmates are even more religious now than I remember. I only know of two other classmates who are obviously atheists.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 05, 2015, 12:25:06 PM
Christianity is really pervasive here. I work at a hospital and I can't think of anyone I work with who isn't religious to some degree. Actually there is one guy who isn't religious but he believes ancient aliens have genetically altered humans and have intervened throughout history, electric universe and such. Based on Facebook posts, my high school classmates are even more religious now than I remember. I only know of two other classmates who are obviously atheists.
I really have been mystified by the number of theists in the medical field. My favorite Dr. (since retired) was a touched horrified when he learned of my atheism. He was Muslim and felt everybody should believe in god. Needless to say, I soft peddled my thoughts on the subject. :))
A co-worker of mine recently lost an uncle who passed away in a hospice center. Needless to say he suffered quite a bit before he died. She is somewhat religious, although not a bible-thumper. She came into my office to let me know that he had passed. "I guess he's in a better place now.", she said. I simple nodded, because I don't let anyone I work with know about my atheism. "But what if he's just dead, and there's nothing.", she continued. "Well, then he doesn't know or feel anything. He's just gone and it's you who have to deal with his death." I said. She then went on to tell me that he is with God and everything is OK. She was afraid to believe that her uncle had passes into nothingness. Afraid for him and afraid for herself. Some people, maybe most people, want to believe that there is something after death. Death is the greatest enabler for religion. If you could overcome that, then more people would change.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 05, 2015, 12:47:50 PM
. My favorite Dr. (since retired) was a touched horrified when he learned of my atheism.... Needless to say, I soft peddled my thoughts on the subject. :))
I had a Dr quoting me scripture and I would have probably said something were I not getting ready to be put under and have him shove a long tube up my ass....
Quote from: Desdinova on May 05, 2015, 01:20:07 PM
A co-worker of mine recently lost an uncle who passed away in a hospice center. Needless to say he suffered quite a bit before he died. She is somewhat religious, although not a bible-thumper. She came into my office to let me know that he had passed. "I guess he's in a better place now.", she said. I simple nodded, because I don't let anyone I work with know about my atheism. "But what if he's just dead, and there's nothing.", she continued. "Well, then he doesn't know or feel anything. He's just gone and it's you who have to deal with his death." I said. She then went on to tell me that he is with God and everything is OK. She was afraid to believe that her uncle had passes into nothingness. Afraid for him and afraid for herself. Some people, maybe most people, want to believe that there is something after death. Death is the greatest enabler for religion. If you could overcome that, then more people would change.
If that is all it is..............hell, death is such a simple thing. :)) Fear of death. Many people seem to have that. Maybe most. How to overcome that fear?? I have no idea.
Quote from: aitm on May 05, 2015, 01:25:42 PM
I had a Dr quoting me scripture and I would have probably said something were I not getting ready to be put under and have him shove a long tube up my ass....
My feeling is he/she can quote whatever they want as long as it makes their hands steadier!
Quote from: Desdinova on May 05, 2015, 01:20:07 PM
A co-worker of mine recently lost an uncle who passed away in a hospice center. Needless to say he suffered quite a bit before he died. She is somewhat religious, although not a bible-thumper. She came into my office to let me know that he had passed. "I guess he's in a better place now.", she said. I simple nodded, because I don't let anyone I work with know about my atheism. "But what if he's just dead, and there's nothing.", she continued. "Well, then he doesn't know or feel anything. He's just gone and it's you who have to deal with his death." I said. She then went on to tell me that he is with God and everything is OK. She was afraid to believe that her uncle had passes into nothingness. Afraid for him and afraid for herself. Some people, maybe most people, want to believe that there is something after death. Death is the greatest enabler for religion. If you could overcome that, then more people would change.
I learned that today in a similar way with my mum. She isn't religious herself, but she still holds into certain beliefs, like an afterlife and spirits.
When it was announced that the new royal princess was born, and the name of the kid was told, Charlotte Elizabeth Diana, Diana being her grandmother, I said I thought it was nice given how William lost his mother in such a tragic way, and mum agreed... only to say she believes Diana's spirit might have reincarnated into the girl.
I had to hold back saying anything, because I realized how even now my mum believes in the same silliness the theists preach. And the only reason I don't say anything, is because I realize how much of a comfort believing that gives her. I really want to say it's all bullshit and their stories made up by cult leaders like everything else they say, but I love my mum to much to cause any kind of rift between us.
Quote from: Munch on May 05, 2015, 02:06:30 PM
I learned that today in a similar way with my mum. She isn't religious herself, but she still holds into certain beliefs, like an afterlife and spirits.
When it was announced that the new royal princess was born, and the name of the kid was told, Charlotte Elizabeth Diana, Diana being her grandmother, I said I thought it was nice given how William lost his mother in such a tragic way, and mum agreed... only to say she believes Diana's spirit might have reincarnated into the girl.
I had to hold back saying anything, because I realized how even now my mum believes in the same silliness the theists preach. And the only reason I don't say anything, is because I realize how much of a comfort believing that gives her. I really want to say it's all bullshit and their stories made up by cult leaders like everything else they say, but I love my mum to much to cause any kind of rift between us.
Well, Munch, you are a wise, wise man!
Mum lost a son before me and my brother was born, and believing in an afterlife pretty much was the only way she could go on. I would sooner never break that apart from her, given what she went through, and just haphazardly agree with her. Luckily she doesn't talk about God or heaven or any of that shit, just a casual belief in there being an afterlife
Quote from: Munch on May 05, 2015, 02:15:17 PM
Mum lost a son before me and my brother was born, and believing in an afterlife pretty much was the only way she could go on. I would sooner never break that apart from her, given what she went through, and just haphazardly agree with her. Luckily she doesn't talk about God or heaven or any of that shit, just a casual belief in there being an afterlife
Like I said, Munch, you are a wise, wise man. :))
In my case, it was readings from Bertrand Russell. Then science. Then Buddha. And then Sankara. I am a strong atheist but I have remained a Hindu because there is space in Hinduism for atheists. So, reason: reading. People who do not want atheism to make inroads should burn libraries and bookshops.
Quote from: Aupmanyav on May 06, 2015, 10:17:40 AM
In my case, it was readings from Bertrand Russell. Then science. Then Buddha. And then Sankara. I am a strong atheist but I have remained a Hindu because there is space in Hinduism for atheists. So, reason: reading. People who do not want atheism to make inroads should burn libraries and bookshops.
Most interesting--I had no idea that there was room within Hinduism for an atheist. And it is interesting that you have gone the direction you did. The usual path would have been Bertrand Russell, then science, then science. Linking science to Buddha and then Sankara would not seem to be the logical next step. But I do remember a time during and just after my divorce that I was looking for something 'more' and I wasn't sure what that would be. I have always leaned toward atheism, but was also searching for 'more', which I translated for myself as a more spiritual path. I found my way to Unity, which calls itself Christian, but is quite different than the mainstream Christianity. What captured my interest was the Unity central idea of the Christ Consciousness--that each of us has a part of god within, and one approaches that god from within. That when you 'let go and let God' you will be guided through your life. I took that to mean that you are in control of your life and your choices, and that you have the power to make any and all decisions for your own best interest by taping your own inner power source, whatever that is for you. Even when I was most deeply involved in that organization, I was still in essence an atheist in that I did not believe in God nor an actual Jesus.
Quote from: Munch on May 05, 2015, 02:15:17 PM
Mum lost a son before me and my brother was born, and believing in an afterlife pretty much was the only way she could go on. I would sooner never break that apart from her, given what she went through, and just haphazardly agree with her. Luckily she doesn't talk about God or heaven or any of that shit, just a casual belief in there being an afterlife
That was the only hard part of transitioning from belief to non-belief --
really saying goodbye to my grandfather, my uncle, my great-grandma, my daughter, knowing that no, I won't ever see them again.