I agree that atheism isn't a 'religion' - however from what I can tell, the essential components of major religions (minus the supernatural beliefs) are that they contain:
*A belief that existence has a certain purpose (not even necessarily a 'universal purpose', but at least a purpose to individuals)
*A guide for what is moral or immoral behavior
And from what I can tell, even people who aren't 'religious' (or don't actively participate in religion) usually still believe in the two above things - other than maybe people who are completely nihilistic.
What I'm curious is what are the most popular secular beliefs or philosophies? The first one that comes to mind is generic humanism. (Meaning for example, to a 'secular humanist', atheism is simply the fact that they don't believe in god - but their actual substitute for religious beliefs and practices is humanism).
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 09:26:09 PM
I agree that atheism isn't a 'religion' - however from what I can tell, the essential components of major religions (minus the supernatural beliefs) are that they contain:
*A belief that existence has a certain purpose (not even necessarily a 'universal purpose', but at least a purpose to individuals)
*A guide for what is moral or immoral behavior
And from what I can tell, even people who aren't 'religious' (or don't actively participate in religion) usually still believe in the two above things - other than maybe people who are completely nihilistic.
What I'm curious is what are the most popular secular beliefs or philosophies? The first one that comes to mind is generic humanism. (Meaning for example, to a 'secular humanist', atheism is simply the fact that they don't believe in god - but their actual substitute for religious beliefs and practices is humanism).
I am not religious in any sense of the word. So,
1--there is no purpose to life except life itself. All organisms, no matter size or structure all want one thing--to live. And I am not nihilistic at all. So that gross generalization goes exactly nowhere.
2--There are no universal morals. Cultures determine what are generally accepted as morals or rules for behavior. But that does not mean I have to subscribe to all, or any, of them. All morals are subjective, so each of us create our own moral standard by which we live. So, another of your gross generalizations bites the dust.
And I'm sure you will be getting quite a few responses soon.
So, Ace, what is your purpose in this life? And where do you get your morals from?
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 09:26:09 PM
*A guide for what is moral or immoral behavior
oh please show us the booklet that you were born with, I should SO like to examine it to see how closely it resembles the one I was born with.
I don't necessarily believe in anything. I just trust my heart to know right from wrong. Just because there is no god doesn't mean there are no rules. Generally the golden rule applies in most cases.
Quote from: Mike Cl on March 28, 2015, 09:34:12 PM
1--there is no purpose to life except life itself. All organisms, no matter size or structure all want one thing--to live. And I am not nihilistic at all. So that gross generalization goes exactly nowhere.
But everyone lives for something - the only way to not have purpose is to just 'not live'.
Quote
2--There are no universal morals. Cultures determine what are generally accepted as morals or rules for behavior. But that does not mean I have to subscribe to all, or any, of them. All morals are subjective, so each of us create our own moral standard by which we live. So, another of your gross generalizations bites the dust.
I'd say 'morality' is embedded into genetics - even animals have instincts that guide their actions. They don't just 'kill each other' right and left, so saying it's completely 'subjective' isn't true.
Quote
So, Ace, what is your purpose in this life? And where do you get your morals from?
I follow a diest religion, I believe that purpose in life is embedded into genetics and comes from evolution - e.x. creating a positive legacy, which is the 'purpose' that animals live for despite not knowing what morals are
Quote from: doorknob on March 28, 2015, 09:47:20 PM
I don't necessarily believe in anything. I just trust my heart to know right from wrong. Just because there is no god doesn't mean there are no rules. Generally the golden rule applies in most cases.
What set of guidelines or principles would you use to determine right from wrong then?
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 09:41:34 PM
oh please show us the booklet that you were born with, I should SO like to examine it to see how closely it resembles the one I was born with.
Genetics? People don't have to read "raping babies is wrong" in a book to know not to do it.
But we still create moral codes, secular or religious, for maximizing our human potential - that's why govts, politics, exist - to determine the "best" way for people to live
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 09:57:44 PM
Genetics? People don't have to read "raping babies is wrong" in a book to know not to do it.
But we still create moral codes, secular or religious, for maximizing our human potential - that's why govts, politics, exist - to determine the "best" way for people to live
So you agree that if a religious moral code is to murder infants then their morality is justifiable? Curious indeed as the babble and the quran give that authorization and indeed make it a mandatory act. To which of these wonderful moral religions do you prescribe to?
Quote*A guide for what is moral or immoral behavior
That is culture, not religion (which is simply a product of culture).
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:02:19 PM
So you agree that if a religious moral code is to murder infants then their morality is justifiable?
That makes no sense, I said that good/bad is determined by evolutionary genetics - people have instinctive knowledge of right/wrong on a basic level.
But if that were all to human morality, then there'd be no point in philosophers or thinkers like Plato, Thomas Jefferson, etc - human morality's based off of basic evolutionary genetics, but it's more complicated than that since humans can reason.
Quote
Curious indeed as the babble and the quran give that authorization and indeed make it a mandatory act. To which of these wonderful moral religions do you prescribe to?
So many ignorant assumptions here - I said I'm a diest - I believe that morality is an inherent part of nature, and it's based off of the cause/effect of actions - human 'morals' might be subjective, but the observable effects of actions aren't.
Animals don't have 'morality' but their purpose is to adapt and pass their genes or 'legacy' onto the next generation. Even animals don't live "just to live" - they have a purpose for living.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 09:55:48 PM
even animals have instincts that guide their actions.
Now hold on there kitten, ya know, many years ago we were taught that animals have an instinct to do certain "things" birds make nests, spiders make webs, things do shit that we have no idea how. We also claim that many animals are natural enemies, for instance Cheetahs have to teach their young to hunt, to kill. Why do they have to do that? Do you really think that little cheetahs will kill if not taught? Yeah most likely if hungry they will, but I have seen videos of both young cheetahs and Impalas being raised together with nothing that resembles a chase and kill attitude, for that matter in the last ten years we have seen hundreds of videos of animals of differing and opposite species co-habitating better than humans do. So maybe we may need to re-think this whole- "humans are superior" concept eh?
Morality MUST be taught, it is not a natural assumed condition. I can tell you that if you give a three year old a gun and have another three year old take the first one favorite toy the first will indeed have no problem shooting the second. They have no idea the concept of morality, that is why we must teach it. It is based on whatever society we were born into.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:09:17 PM
people have instinctive knowledge of right/wrong on a basic level.
That is either plain ignorance speaking or worse…arrogance. People MUST be taught morals, it is not some f-ing instinct.
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:10:05 PM
Now hold on there kitten, ya know, many years ago we were taught that animals have an instinct to do certain "things" birds make nests, spiders make webs, things do shit that we have no idea how. We also claim that many animals are natural enemies, for instance Cheetahs have to teach their young to hunt, to kill. Why do they have to do that? Do you really think that little cheetahs will kill if not taught? Yeah most likely if hungry they will, but I have seen videos of both young cheetahs and Impalas being raised together with nothing that resembles a chase and kill attitude, for that matter in the last ten years we have seen hundreds of videos of animals of differing and opposite species co-habitating better than humans do. So maybe we may need to re-think this whole- "humans are superior" concept eh?
Who taught the first cheetah then? No it's a scientific fact that animals (humans included) are born with certain natural instincts - sure they can be conditioned by environment, but the genetic disposition is still there. Domesticated animals like housecats for example were bred over hundreds of years - but wild cats aren't as easily conditioned to behave as docile.
Quote
Morality MUST be taught, it is not a natural assumed condition. I can tell you that if you give a three year old a gun and have another three year old take the first one favorite toy the first will indeed have no problem shooting the second. They have no idea the concept of morality, that is why we must teach it. It is based on whatever society we were born into.
That's a pretty fringe idea which seems based on outdated psychology - the idea that we're born just a 'blank slate' and only shaped by environment, truth is it's a combination of environment and genetics - not all or one.
https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/3260
Secular humanism.
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:12:23 PM
That is either plain ignorance speaking or worse…arrogance. People MUST be taught morals, it is not some f-ing instinct.
Maybe you should speak for yourself. No one had to teach me that raping children is wrong in order to know not to do it.
Plus the majority of religious people don't actually kill infidels (even though their Holy Books tell them to) - so if what you said was true, then 100% of Christians and Muslims would be terrorists
Your theory is definitely on the fringe, if you think that genetics have no role in determining behavior - even across species. This is pretty much established science.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:15:52 PM
Domesticated animals like housecats for example were bred over hundreds of years - but wild cats aren't as easily conditioned to behave as docile.
You do realize that domesticated dogs and cats are indeed from wild ones?
Quote- the idea that we're born just a 'blank slate' and only shaped by environment, truth is it's a combination of environment and genetics - not all or one.
spend a day in a kindergarten class kid. You don't need no freakin special psychology major to see that kids do not have any special pre-set morality.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:19:14 PM
Maybe you should speak for yourself. No one had to teach me that raping children is wrong in order to know not to do it
Bullshit, you were taught to wipe your ass because it was moral to do so. Jesus, are you in special ed? You were taught everything. EVERYTHING!
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:22:57 PM
Bullshit, you were taught to wipe your ass because it was moral to do so. Jesus, are you in special ed? You were taught everything. EVERYTHING!
If you had shit on your ass you'd instinctively remove it - you wouldn't use toliet paper but you won't just sit there and let it fester.
Or if you were starving, you wouldn't just sit in place until you die if no one told you "you have to eat food"
There are plenty of animal behaviors which aren't actively taught but are instinctively known.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/9267147/Its-nature-not-nurture-personality-lies-in-genes-twins-study-shows.html
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:21:03 PM
You do realize that domesticated dogs and cats are indeed from wild ones?
They were genetically bred over 100s of years to be domesticated - the idea that if a wolf were taken out of the wild and raised around humans it would be 'no different' than a Beagle is compteley absurd
Quote
spend a day in a kindergarten class kid. You don't need no freakin special psychology major to see that kids do not have any special pre-set morality.
Kids brains aren't fully developed to have the same judgment as an adult - that's a no brainier. If you think the average 18 year old would have no problem raping and murdering if they "weren't taught not to", that's absurd. People who exhibit sociopathic behavior have impaired brain structures.
Whether you call it 'morality" or not - people have instinctive drive towards certain behaviors because of human evolution.
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:27:36 PM
If you had shit on your ass you'd instinctively remove it -
Bullshit, you were taught to remove it, are you really this stupid?
Quotebut you won't just sit there and let it fester.
Yes, yes you would, you're not born a teenage kid, really?
Quoteyou wouldn't just sit in place until you die if no one told you "you have to eat food"
Yes, Yes you would, you're not born a….shessh
QuoteThere are plenty of animal behaviors which aren't actively taught but are instinctively known.
whew! Yes, yes there are….birds can make nests, spiders can make webs,, go on...
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If it's real - we believe in it. The name defines the religion. The Church of Reality is a Personal Commitment to the Truth. We believe in real reality, not the way we want reality to be, not our personal reality, but real objective reality the way it really is. We Realists are explorers and we explore the universe together with our minds. We think about thinking. We wonder about wondering. We attempt to understand the Understanding of Understanding. We ponder the Great Questions. We are a curious people and we are bound together in our quest to know the real world that we really live in.
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The Sacred Direction is forward - onward and upward. Our world view is Futurism not Dogmatism. Our Principle of Positive Evolution commits us to envision a future that is better than today. We are one planet and we are all in this together on our little ball in the universe. In order to answer the Sacred Question and explore our reality, society must evolve forward.
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The Sacred Moral Question is, "Is this a Good Thing?" What does "good" mean? That too is involved in the Sacred Moral Question. Right and Wrong and morality and ethics are all relative to your basic assumptions and goals. We base our morality on reality and it is our duty to make sure that reality is taken into consideration when questions of right and wrong are decided. The commitment to Reality is a commitment to truth, honesty, wisdom, and responsibility. The Church of Reality is committed to getting the moral questions right.
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By adopting the name "Church of Reality" we are dedicating ourselves to solving the puzzle of how to create a religion that is based on reality. They say it can't be done, but we say it can and must be done. We accept the task of creating a religion that provides all the community services that other religions provide, while staying true to the principles of science and logic. We accept the axiom that this is possible and we dedicate ourselves to the seemingly impossible task of making it work.
Bringing Religion into the 21st Century Reality as a Religious Identity
The Church of Reality is a religion based on the practice of Realism. It is a religion that is based on believing in everything that is real. Our motto is, "If it's real, we believe in it." Since no one knows all of reality, the Church of Reality is about the pursuit of reality the way it really is. We commit to being intellectually honest with ourselves, and with others, so that we can cut through the mythology and understand the understanding of understanding.
Our world view is that religion is evolving in the Sacred Direction and that the Church of Reality is a blueprint for religious evolution. We want to inject reality into the world view of other religions so that we are all improved through Realism. The Church of Reality is different in that we are not dedicated to a fictional world view. Our world view is to see reality the way it really is. Other religions' world views are based on mythology. All religions have some basis in reality. Most would agree that murder is bad. On those universal concepts we in the Church of Reality agree. But in those other religions, if their world view contradicts reality, they are expected to reject reality in favor of their world view. Rarely are other religions dedicated to the pursuit of reality the way it really is. In this church, if you come to realize that what you currently believe is wrong, you are expected to change your mind. That's what's different about the Church of Reality. The beliefs are not static. Reality is a learning process. We are an evolving religion. Of all the religious choices out there, we believe that Reality should be one of those choices.
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Fundamental Concepts What the Church of Reality is Not
Every religion has it's own world view and culture. The Church of Reality is no different. Our world view and culture are rooted in the Sacred Principles which define our ethical standards. Although our mission is to explore reality, we need to deal with a lot of other related issues to do that. Here is an overview of what being a Realist is all about. To avoid confusion and misconceptions, here is a list of things that the Church of Reality is not. Sometimes a religion can better clarify what it is by stating what it isn't. We are like other religions in many ways and in many ways we are not like other religions. Here is a list of what we are not.
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Solitary
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:27:36 PM
Kids brains aren't fully developed to have the same judgment as an adult
HOORAH!! Finally!
QuoteIf you think the average 18 year old would have no problem raping and murdering if they "weren't taught not to", that's absurd.
(oops misread that) prove it. Find me a kid who was taught that raping a kid was okay and that they refused to do it.
QuotePeople who exhibit sociopathic behavior have impaired brain structures.
Prove it.
QuoteWhether you call it 'morality" or not - people have instinctive drive towards certain behaviors because of human evolution.
other than pandering and vapid ramblings you have yet to prove that.
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:32:41 PM
Bullshit, you were taught to remove it, are you really this stupid?
No but I'm beginning to think you are - you're denying a ton of established, modern science - sounds more like something I'd read on a fundamentalist site trying to convince people they'd be murders if they never read "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
A kid left on its own would instinctively try to remove it due to the rash.
I bet you think that you wouldn't remove your hand from a hot stove either unless you were "told not to" :lol:
Quote
Yes, yes you would, you're not born a teenage kid, really?
Yes, Yes you would, you're not born a….shessh
Prove that every specifically had someone tell them "don't murder, don't rape, etc etc". They didn't. It's established science that the pre-frontal cortex governs judgement and social behavior, and that impaired activity in that part of the brain contributes to sociopathic behavior.
This guy was raised to be a terrorist, but he didn't become one. Why is that?
https://www.ted.com/talks/zak_ebrahim_i_am_the_son_of_a_terrorist_here_s_how_i_chose_peace?language=en
Quote
whew! Yes, yes there are….birds can make nests, spiders can make webs,, go on...
Birds like parakeets instinctively know to eat, how to crack open nuts with their beak to find food, etc - even when they're raised in a pet store - they're not "taught to do so" by someone
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 09:26:09 PM
What I'm curious is what are the most popular secular beliefs or philosophies? The first one that comes to mind is generic humanism. (Meaning for example, to a 'secular humanist', atheism is simply the fact that they don't believe in god - but their actual substitute for religious beliefs and practices is humanism).
I'm more inclined to think that religion is a substitute for humanism, a way to dress up basic civil and civilized behavior in order to make it feel imposed by an outside authority against whom there is no appeal. The way you have it phrased accuses atheism of being a religion anyway, or at least assumes that there's something necessary about religious rite and ritual for which we need a substitute.
I'm not going to speak for my brothers and sisters, but I can assure you that I have no need for dressing up my atheism with despiritualized religious trappings.
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:36:57 PM
HOORAH!! Finally!
(oops misread that) prove it. Find me a kid who was taught that raping a kid was okay and that they refused to do it.
Prove it.
other than pandering and vapid ramblings you have yet to prove that.
Plenty of members left the Westboro cult despite being raised their all their life, for example:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/07/zach-phelps-roper-westboro-baptist-church_n_5280491.html
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:36:57 PM
Prove it.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-you-make-sociopath-through-brain-injury-trauma/
Quote
other than pandering and vapid ramblings you have yet to prove that.
No reason I should have to prove something this basic - you're denying pretty much all established genetic science and suggesting that behavior is 100% environmentally conditioned, even in animals, which is a completely fringe belief
http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/both-environment-and-genetic-makeup-influence-behavior-13907840
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:43:02 PM
Plenty of members left the Westboro cult despite being raised their all their life, for example:
they weren't taught to rape, c'mon on.
I guess AITM will just falsify everything by saying "oh something somewhere must've taught them, and you can't prove this DIDN'T happen"
Kind of like a fundamentalist might say "oh they must've hard the Bible at some point in their life" as an explanation for why atheists don't kill people
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:45:23 PM
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-you-make-sociopath-through-brain-injury-trauma/
you're claiming that some people with brain trauma can become sociopaths(though not all of them) not that everyone who rapes and kills children have brain trauma.
Quotehttp://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-you-make-sociopath-through-brain-injury-trauma/
It is hilarious that you post this because it is strong evidence you are wrong about what you post. Thanks for the laughs! Solitary
First of all there is no such thing as absolutely identical twins anymore than identical souls. Even twins have separate bodies and brains thus are different. There is absolutely nothing in science that suggests a world beyond science accept psychology and psychiatry which are not hard science, even though neurology is, it still is open to interpretation and bias. You sound like a Deepak Chopra fan who doesn't have a clue about quantum mechanics or understands it---because no one does!
Reality is our God
Science is our Bible
Evidence is our Scripture
Big History is our Creation Story
Ecology is our Theology
Integrity is our Salvation
Positive Evolution is our Mission
The Church of Reality is a religion based on the practice of Realism, which is a dedication to the pursuit of the understanding of objective Reality. Our motto is, "If it's real, we believe in it." Since no one knows all of Reality, the Church of Reality is a religious commitment to the pursuit of Reality the way it really is. We think about thinking. We wonder about wondering. We try to understand the understanding of understanding. We are Explorers, not followers. The phrase "What is Real?" is our Sacred Question and the word "Reality" is our Sacred Message. We talk about Reality, think about Reality, and aim to make Reality more important in society.
The Church of Reality is based upon the Authority of Evidence
rather than the Authority of Scripture
Reverend Reality Speaks!
The Church of Reality is Religion 3.0. Religion 1.0 was about the authority of elders. Religion 2.0 was about the authority of scripture. Religion 3.0 is about the authority of evidence. This is a process we call the Evidential Reformation. We attempt answer the great questions that other religions address, like what is right and wrong, what is the meaning of life, how do people live together in a community, and what are our responsibilities to ourselves and to each other. We address these concerns in the context of Big History, our present Reality, and our future evolution. We are particularly focused on the future, which we call the Sacred Direction.
What we consider real is based on knowing rather that choosing to believe something. The difference between knowing and believing is knowing is based on the scientific method, which we call the Sacred Method. We use evidence, proof, logic, and reasoning to determine what is real. That doesn't make us infallible, sometimes we get it wrong. But when we realize we are wrong we change our minds because we have a value system that puts Reality first.
The Church of Reality is about making a religious commitment to the pursuit of the understanding of Reality as it really is.
Join our Email List
We are Monorealists, which means we believe in The One True Reality. This Reality is the sum of everything that actually exists. Our definition of Reality includes what some people call "other realities" that actually are real with the exclusion of imaginary realities and religious fiction. We care about what is real, not what we think is real or what we want to believe is real. The Church of Reality puts "real" Reality first.
We are about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Reality!
Your donation helps fund promotional activities that brings attention to living in Right Relationship with Reality. If you want to help get the word out and make Reality a religious value please help out by making a contribution. If you found this site and you like what you see then help us get the attention of more people. The more we can get people to embrace Reality the better the future of humanity will be.
The Church of Reality provides a religious identity for people who have made a personal commitment to pursue Reality the way it really is. When we are asked, "What religion are you?," we answer that we are Realists; we practice Reality because we believe in Reality. We also provide a sense of community, a social structure, and a moral compass to define right and wrong. We provide a sense of purpose about who we are, why we exist, and how we live our lives, in the context of science and logic.
We are of One Planet - we are all here together - and we are committed to making the future better than it is today. We are committed to making sure humanity evolves in a positive direction.
The Church of Reality recognizes the fact that the human race has a vast amount of shared knowledge. We call this shared knowledge the Tree of Knowledge, and it is through the growth of this tree that we can explore the universe around us. As the Tree of Knowledge grows, we evolve toward a better tomorrow, one where we will know more about Reality than we know today. Realism is not just a casual acceptance of Reality as real. Realism is a deeply felt choice, a commitment to a disciplined approach to determine what's real and to allow us to evolve in a positive direction.
Realists are not without values or morality. Our values are based on Humanism rather than a fictional holy book. As Realists, our values include Positive Evolution, Exploration, Honesty and Integrity, Freedom, Individualism, Peace, Courage, Environmentalism, Compassion, Justice, Inclusiveness, Scrutiny and Doubt, Humility, Reason, Wisdom, and Personal Responsibility. We believe in Original Virtue rather than Original Sin. We are a Doubt-Based rather than Faith-Based religion. These Sacred Principles form the basis for our Church Doctrine and are logically consistent with our missions.
The Church of Reality is an evolving religion. We are not tied to a fixed doctrine that was written in the past and is slowly becoming obsolete. If we get it wrong, we fix our mistakes. We are an Open Source Religion and everyone is welcome to participate in the development and improvement of our religion. We live on a vast wondrous universe that we are just beginning to explore. Why would someone want to waste their entire existence on a fictional world view when there's all this wonderful Reality to investigate and understand?
The Church of Reality is an Emergent Religion. Just as apples grow on apple trees when humanity evolves to a certain level something like the Church of Reality must occur. Humanity has two paths. We can either evolve forward or we will become extinct. We will either Stay in the Game or we will be Left Behind. Since we were created through the process of evolution and our ancestors all the way back to Pond Scum did what it took to survive, we are programmed by evolution to try to continue to exist. We therefore accept, through evolutionary bias, that to exist is better than to not exist. In order to continue to exist we have to evolve forward and we need to be in Right Relationship with Reality to do that. And that defines the mission and the purpose of the Church of Reality, that humanity should continue to exist and evolve forward so that we stay in the game. Our descendants should look back at this time and be thankful we did what we do here today. Otherwise, if we do the wrong thing, they might regret what we do today, or there may be no one around to look back. We will be forgotten.
What is Reality?
Reality is that which when you stop believing in it - it doesn't go away. ~ Philip K. Dick
Are you already a Realist? - Do you find yourself thinking about Reality? Do you think that it's important that what you believe in is actually real? Do you think for yourself rather than just believe what you are told to believe? When you counsel friends on important matters, do you advise them to take Reality into consideration? Do you believe the world would be better off if Reality were a more important part of society? if you answered YES to these questions, you may already be a Realist.
“A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.†~ Carl Sagan
If you like what you see, then join our Mailing List to get the latest announcements. We also appreciate those who link to us and review the Church of Reality in their blogs. We have a good religion started here. All we need is people to spread the word about it.
Church of Reality Introduction Podcast Listen Now!
The Sacred Missions of the Church of Reality are:
We Believe in Reality - the Way It Really Is
We Spread the Sacred Message - Reality
We Choose the Sacred Direction - Forward
We Honor the Tree of Knowledge
We Ask the Sacred Moral Question - What Is Good
We Issue the Sacred Challenge
We Are Activists - We Make It Happen
We Unite Religion and Reality
We believe in Reality - the way it really is!
If it's real - we believe in it. The name defines the religion. The Church of Reality is a Personal Commitment to the Truth. We believe in real reality, not the way we want reality to be, not our personal reality, but real objective reality the way it really is. We Realists are explorers and we explore the universe together with our minds. We think about thinking. We wonder about wondering. We attempt to understand the Understanding of Understanding. We ponder the Great Questions. We are a curious people and we are bound together in our quest to know the real world that we really live in.
Read more...
We Spread the Sacred Message - Reality
Our mission is to spread the importance of reality everywhere, to think about reality, to talk about reality, to allow reality to transform our being. Every time we mention the word Reality we spread the Sacred Message. We are here to ask the Sacred Question - "What is Real?" We want people to consider reality when making important decisions. By spreading the Sacred Message we cause people to be Real in the Sacred Moment (which is Now). Our mission is to say "Reality" as many times as we can and to get other people to think about reality as often as we can. We want people to be more realistic in their daily lives and to spend more time every day wondering about what is really real.
Read more...
We Honor the Tree of Knowledge
The Tree of Knowledge represents the sum total of all human understanding. It is the shared knowledge of the human race. It is the repository of everything we know. The fact that you can read this is because you can read and communicate with a common language that is among the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge. The human race survives and thrives through our shared knowledge. Our understanding of reality and our evolutionary process is through growing the Tree of Knowledge.
Read more...
We Choose the Sacred Direction - Forward
The Sacred Direction is forward - onward and upward. Our world view is Futurism not Dogmatism. Our Principle of Positive Evolution commits us to envision a future that is better than today. We are one planet and we are all in this together on our little ball in the universe. In order to answer the Sacred Question and explore our reality, society must evolve forward.
In order for us to explore reality the way it really is, we have to continue to evolve forward. We need to become a better society. We need to develop new technology. We need to find better ways to feed ourselves, to cure diseases, to keep our environment clean, to advance the sciences, to educate our children, to understand our minds, to live in peace with one another, and to have a fair and just society. These things cause us to progress and to move forward as a human race so that we can understand our world and the universe of which we are a part.
Read more...
We Ask the Sacred Moral Question - What is Good?
The Sacred Moral Question is, "Is this a Good Thing?" What does "good" mean? That too is involved in the Sacred Moral Question. Right and Wrong and morality and ethics are all relative to your basic assumptions and goals. We base our morality on reality and it is our duty to make sure that reality is taken into consideration when questions of right and wrong are decided. The commitment to Reality is a commitment to truth, honesty, wisdom, and responsibility. The Church of Reality is committed to getting the moral questions right.
Read more...
We Issue the Sacred Challenge
There are a lot of religions and many of them have an Extinctionist perspective on the future of the world. They look forward to the world ending in their lifetime. Our religion is based on Positive Evolution and the progress of humanity is sacred to us. We therefore challenge other religions on the basis of reality to help ensure that they don't destroy civilization pursuing their fiction based religious fantasies. One of our missions is to influence other religions to embrace reality and help them evolve into a better religion that doesn't threaten the future of the human race.
Read more...
We are Activists - We make it Happen
We are an activist religion. We don't just find problems - we solve problems. We are committed to coming up with solutions and take responsibility for bringing new concepts into reality. We make sure that the job is done right. We are a community, and we do the work needed to make the community work. We go out and learn, we try to understand, and we spend a lot of time thinking. We give of ourselves for the common good of all people. In the Spirit of the Tree - our shared knowledge - we support sharing. It is our duty to look around and figure out how to make it all work.
Read more...
We Unite Religion and Reality
By adopting the name "Church of Reality" we are dedicating ourselves to solving the puzzle of how to create a religion that is based on reality. They say it can't be done, but we say it can and must be done. We accept the task of creating a religion that provides all the community services that other religions provide, while staying true to the principles of science and logic. We accept the axiom that this is possible and we dedicate ourselves to the seemingly impossible task of making it work.
Bringing Religion into the 21st Century Reality as a Religious Identity
The Church of Reality is a religion based on the practice of Realism. It is a religion that is based on believing in everything that is real. Our motto is, "If it's real, we believe in it." Since no one knows all of reality, the Church of Reality is about the pursuit of reality the way it really is. We commit to being intellectually honest with ourselves, and with others, so that we can cut through the mythology and understand the understanding of understanding.
Our world view is that religion is evolving in the Sacred Direction and that the Church of Reality is a blueprint for religious evolution. We want to inject reality into the world view of other religions so that we are all improved through Realism. The Church of Reality is different in that we are not dedicated to a fictional world view. Our world view is to see reality the way it really is. Other religions' world views are based on mythology. All religions have some basis in reality. Most would agree that murder is bad. On those universal concepts we in the Church of Reality agree. But in those other religions, if their world view contradicts reality, they are expected to reject reality in favor of their world view. Rarely are other religions dedicated to the pursuit of reality the way it really is. In this church, if you come to realize that what you currently believe is wrong, you are expected to change your mind. That's what's different about the Church of Reality. The beliefs are not static. Reality is a learning process. We are an evolving religion. Of all the religious choices out there, we believe that Reality should be one of those choices.
Read more... Read more...
Fundamental Concepts What the Church of Reality is Not
Every religion has it's own world view and culture. The Church of Reality is no different. Our world view and culture are rooted in the Sacred Principles which define our ethical standards. Although our mission is to explore reality, we need to deal with a lot of other related issues to do that. Here is an overview of what being a Realist is all about. To avoid confusion and misconceptions, here is a list of things that the Church of Reality is not. Sometimes a religion can better clarify what it is by stating what it isn't. We are like other religions in many ways and in many ways we are not like other religions. Here is a list of what we are not.
Read more... Read more...
Solitary
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:49:42 PM
you're claiming that some people with brain trauma can become sociopaths(though not all of them) not that everyone who rapes and kills children have brain trauma.
Your theory is saying genetics have
no influence on behavior, correct?
Personalty types which are less social by default are more likely to become sociopaths if given the right environmental triggers, such as growing up around abusive or sociopathic individuals.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:48:45 PM
I guess AITM will just falsify everything by saying "oh something somewhere must've taught them,
No I am saying that the vast majority of humans and animals MUST be taught proper behavior which includes morality. Children will kill another easily because they do not understand the consequence. You are suggesting you can shit a kid out with a preset genetic moral code that will stop it from slapping some little shit that stole her teddy bear. IT don't work dat way my friend.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 10:52:57 PM
Your theory is saying genetics have no influence on behavior, correct?
No, I am saying, and all I have said is that morality MUST be taught.
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:58:17 PM
No I am saying that the vast majority of humans and animals MUST be taught proper behavior which includes morality. Children will kill another easily because they do not understand the consequence. You are suggesting you can shit a kid out with a preset genetic moral code that will stop it from slapping some little shit that stole her teddy bear. IT don't work dat way my friend.
People and animals are taught methods, not desires and dispositions.
A kid might not be able to 'wipe its ass' without being taught, but leave a little one alone in a crib with a dirty diaper and it will try to remove the source of pain - such as by ripping the diaper off.
There's a basic level of behavior in animal species that's purely instinctive, which is why even animals which "can't learn" by definition (such as worms, which are just a collection of nerve endings) behave in instinctive ways.
Hey Ace, read all of this, it answers all your questions!
Quotehttp://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-you-make-sociopath-through-brain-injury-trauma/
It is hilarious that you post this because it is strong evidence you are wrong about what you post. Thanks for the laughs! Solitary
First of all there is no such thing as absolutely identical twins anymore than identical souls. Even twins have separate bodies and brains thus are different. There is absolutely nothing in science that suggests a world beyond science accept psychology and psychiatry which are not hard science, even though neurology is, it still is open to interpretation and bias. You sound like a Deepak Chopra fan who doesn't have a clue about quantum mechanics or understands it---because no one does!
Reality is our God
Science is our Bible
Evidence is our Scripture
Big History is our Creation Story
Ecology is our Theology
Integrity is our Salvation
Positive Evolution is our Mission
The Church of Reality is a religion based on the practice of Realism, which is a dedication to the pursuit of the understanding of objective Reality. Our motto is, "If it's real, we believe in it." Since no one knows all of Reality, the Church of Reality is a religious commitment to the pursuit of Reality the way it really is. We think about thinking. We wonder about wondering. We try to understand the understanding of understanding. We are Explorers, not followers. The phrase "What is Real?" is our Sacred Question and the word "Reality" is our Sacred Message. We talk about Reality, think about Reality, and aim to make Reality more important in society.
The Church of Reality is based upon the Authority of Evidence
rather than the Authority of Scripture
Reverend Reality Speaks!
The Church of Reality is Religion 3.0. Religion 1.0 was about the authority of elders. Religion 2.0 was about the authority of scripture. Religion 3.0 is about the authority of evidence. This is a process we call the Evidential Reformation. We attempt answer the great questions that other religions address, like what is right and wrong, what is the meaning of life, how do people live together in a community, and what are our responsibilities to ourselves and to each other. We address these concerns in the context of Big History, our present Reality, and our future evolution. We are particularly focused on the future, which we call the Sacred Direction.
What we consider real is based on knowing rather that choosing to believe something. The difference between knowing and believing is knowing is based on the scientific method, which we call the Sacred Method. We use evidence, proof, logic, and reasoning to determine what is real. That doesn't make us infallible, sometimes we get it wrong. But when we realize we are wrong we change our minds because we have a value system that puts Reality first.
The Church of Reality is about making a religious commitment to the pursuit of the understanding of Reality as it really is.
Join our Email List
We are Monorealists, which means we believe in The One True Reality. This Reality is the sum of everything that actually exists. Our definition of Reality includes what some people call "other realities" that actually are real with the exclusion of imaginary realities and religious fiction. We care about what is real, not what we think is real or what we want to believe is real. The Church of Reality puts "real" Reality first.
We are about Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Reality!
Your donation helps fund promotional activities that brings attention to living in Right Relationship with Reality. If you want to help get the word out and make Reality a religious value please help out by making a contribution. If you found this site and you like what you see then help us get the attention of more people. The more we can get people to embrace Reality the better the future of humanity will be.
The Church of Reality provides a religious identity for people who have made a personal commitment to pursue Reality the way it really is. When we are asked, "What religion are you?," we answer that we are Realists; we practice Reality because we believe in Reality. We also provide a sense of community, a social structure, and a moral compass to define right and wrong. We provide a sense of purpose about who we are, why we exist, and how we live our lives, in the context of science and logic.
We are of One Planet - we are all here together - and we are committed to making the future better than it is today. We are committed to making sure humanity evolves in a positive direction.
The Church of Reality recognizes the fact that the human race has a vast amount of shared knowledge. We call this shared knowledge the Tree of Knowledge, and it is through the growth of this tree that we can explore the universe around us. As the Tree of Knowledge grows, we evolve toward a better tomorrow, one where we will know more about Reality than we know today. Realism is not just a casual acceptance of Reality as real. Realism is a deeply felt choice, a commitment to a disciplined approach to determine what's real and to allow us to evolve in a positive direction.
Realists are not without values or morality. Our values are based on Humanism rather than a fictional holy book. As Realists, our values include Positive Evolution, Exploration, Honesty and Integrity, Freedom, Individualism, Peace, Courage, Environmentalism, Compassion, Justice, Inclusiveness, Scrutiny and Doubt, Humility, Reason, Wisdom, and Personal Responsibility. We believe in Original Virtue rather than Original Sin. We are a Doubt-Based rather than Faith-Based religion. These Sacred Principles form the basis for our Church Doctrine and are logically consistent with our missions.
The Church of Reality is an evolving religion. We are not tied to a fixed doctrine that was written in the past and is slowly becoming obsolete. If we get it wrong, we fix our mistakes. We are an Open Source Religion and everyone is welcome to participate in the development and improvement of our religion. We live on a vast wondrous universe that we are just beginning to explore. Why would someone want to waste their entire existence on a fictional world view when there's all this wonderful Reality to investigate and understand?
The Church of Reality is an Emergent Religion. Just as apples grow on apple trees when humanity evolves to a certain level something like the Church of Reality must occur. Humanity has two paths. We can either evolve forward or we will become extinct. We will either Stay in the Game or we will be Left Behind. Since we were created through the process of evolution and our ancestors all the way back to Pond Scum did what it took to survive, we are programmed by evolution to try to continue to exist. We therefore accept, through evolutionary bias, that to exist is better than to not exist. In order to continue to exist we have to evolve forward and we need to be in Right Relationship with Reality to do that. And that defines the mission and the purpose of the Church of Reality, that humanity should continue to exist and evolve forward so that we stay in the game. Our descendants should look back at this time and be thankful we did what we do here today. Otherwise, if we do the wrong thing, they might regret what we do today, or there may be no one around to look back. We will be forgotten.
What is Reality?
Reality is that which when you stop believing in it - it doesn't go away. ~ Philip K. Dick
Are you already a Realist? - Do you find yourself thinking about Reality? Do you think that it's important that what you believe in is actually real? Do you think for yourself rather than just believe what you are told to believe? When you counsel friends on important matters, do you advise them to take Reality into consideration? Do you believe the world would be better off if Reality were a more important part of society? if you answered YES to these questions, you may already be a Realist.
“A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.†~ Carl Sagan
If you like what you see, then join our Mailing List to get the latest announcements. We also appreciate those who link to us and review the Church of Reality in their blogs. We have a good religion started here. All we need is people to spread the word about it.
Church of Reality Introduction Podcast Listen Now!
The Sacred Missions of the Church of Reality are:
We Believe in Reality - the Way It Really Is
We Spread the Sacred Message - Reality
We Choose the Sacred Direction - Forward
We Honor the Tree of Knowledge
We Ask the Sacred Moral Question - What Is Good
We Issue the Sacred Challenge
We Are Activists - We Make It Happen
We Unite Religion and Reality
We believe in Reality - the way it really is!
If it's real - we believe in it. The name defines the religion. The Church of Reality is a Personal Commitment to the Truth. We believe in real reality, not the way we want reality to be, not our personal reality, but real objective reality the way it really is. We Realists are explorers and we explore the universe together with our minds. We think about thinking. We wonder about wondering. We attempt to understand the Understanding of Understanding. We ponder the Great Questions. We are a curious people and we are bound together in our quest to know the real world that we really live in.
Read more...
We Spread the Sacred Message - Reality
Our mission is to spread the importance of reality everywhere, to think about reality, to talk about reality, to allow reality to transform our being. Every time we mention the word Reality we spread the Sacred Message. We are here to ask the Sacred Question - "What is Real?" We want people to consider reality when making important decisions. By spreading the Sacred Message we cause people to be Real in the Sacred Moment (which is Now). Our mission is to say "Reality" as many times as we can and to get other people to think about reality as often as we can. We want people to be more realistic in their daily lives and to spend more time every day wondering about what is really real.
Read more...
We Honor the Tree of Knowledge
The Tree of Knowledge represents the sum total of all human understanding. It is the shared knowledge of the human race. It is the repository of everything we know. The fact that you can read this is because you can read and communicate with a common language that is among the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge. The human race survives and thrives through our shared knowledge. Our understanding of reality and our evolutionary process is through growing the Tree of Knowledge.
Read more...
We Choose the Sacred Direction - Forward
The Sacred Direction is forward - onward and upward. Our world view is Futurism not Dogmatism. Our Principle of Positive Evolution commits us to envision a future that is better than today. We are one planet and we are all in this together on our little ball in the universe. In order to answer the Sacred Question and explore our reality, society must evolve forward.
In order for us to explore reality the way it really is, we have to continue to evolve forward. We need to become a better society. We need to develop new technology. We need to find better ways to feed ourselves, to cure diseases, to keep our environment clean, to advance the sciences, to educate our children, to understand our minds, to live in peace with one another, and to have a fair and just society. These things cause us to progress and to move forward as a human race so that we can understand our world and the universe of which we are a part.
Read more...
We Ask the Sacred Moral Question - What is Good?
The Sacred Moral Question is, "Is this a Good Thing?" What does "good" mean? That too is involved in the Sacred Moral Question. Right and Wrong and morality and ethics are all relative to your basic assumptions and goals. We base our morality on reality and it is our duty to make sure that reality is taken into consideration when questions of right and wrong are decided. The commitment to Reality is a commitment to truth, honesty, wisdom, and responsibility. The Church of Reality is committed to getting the moral questions right.
Read more...
We Issue the Sacred Challenge
There are a lot of religions and many of them have an Extinctionist perspective on the future of the world. They look forward to the world ending in their lifetime. Our religion is based on Positive Evolution and the progress of humanity is sacred to us. We therefore challenge other religions on the basis of reality to help ensure that they don't destroy civilization pursuing their fiction based religious fantasies. One of our missions is to influence other religions to embrace reality and help them evolve into a better religion that doesn't threaten the future of the human race.
Read more...
We are Activists - We make it Happen
We are an activist religion. We don't just find problems - we solve problems. We are committed to coming up with solutions and take responsibility for bringing new concepts into reality. We make sure that the job is done right. We are a community, and we do the work needed to make the community work. We go out and learn, we try to understand, and we spend a lot of time thinking. We give of ourselves for the common good of all people. In the Spirit of the Tree - our shared knowledge - we support sharing. It is our duty to look around and figure out how to make it all work.
Read more...
We Unite Religion and Reality
By adopting the name "Church of Reality" we are dedicating ourselves to solving the puzzle of how to create a religion that is based on reality. They say it can't be done, but we say it can and must be done. We accept the task of creating a religion that provides all the community services that other religions provide, while staying true to the principles of science and logic. We accept the axiom that this is possible and we dedicate ourselves to the seemingly impossible task of making it work.
Bringing Religion into the 21st Century Reality as a Religious Identity
The Church of Reality is a religion based on the practice of Realism. It is a religion that is based on believing in everything that is real. Our motto is, "If it's real, we believe in it." Since no one knows all of reality, the Church of Reality is about the pursuit of reality the way it really is. We commit to being intellectually honest with ourselves, and with others, so that we can cut through the mythology and understand the understanding of understanding.
Our world view is that religion is evolving in the Sacred Direction and that the Church of Reality is a blueprint for religious evolution. We want to inject reality into the world view of other religions so that we are all improved through Realism. The Church of Reality is different in that we are not dedicated to a fictional world view. Our world view is to see reality the way it really is. Other religions' world views are based on mythology. All religions have some basis in reality. Most would agree that murder is bad. On those universal concepts we in the Church of Reality agree. But in those other religions, if their world view contradicts reality, they are expected to reject reality in favor of their world view. Rarely are other religions dedicated to the pursuit of reality the way it really is. In this church, if you come to realize that what you currently believe is wrong, you are expected to change your mind. That's what's different about the Church of Reality. The beliefs are not static. Reality is a learning process. We are an evolving religion. Of all the religious choices out there, we believe that Reality should be one of those choices.
Read more... Read more...
Fundamental Concepts What the Church of Reality is Not
Every religion has it's own world view and culture. The Church of Reality is no different. Our world view and culture are rooted in the Sacred Principles which define our ethical standards. Although our mission is to explore reality, we need to deal with a lot of other related issues to do that. Here is an overview of what being a Realist is all about. To avoid confusion and misconceptions, here is a list of things that the Church of Reality is not. Sometimes a religion can better clarify what it is by stating what it isn't. We are like other religions in many ways and in many ways we are not like other religions. Here is a list of what we are not.
Read more... Read more...
Solitary
Quote from: aitm on March 28, 2015, 10:59:35 PM
No, I am saying, and all I have said is that morality MUST be taught.
You're making too sharp a distinction between 'morality' and instinctive mating, survival, etc behavior
Ockham's razor is fine, but like Einstein said---"But not too simple." What you are doing is called confirmation bias, a fallacy in logic, one that even scientists can be caught doing. Solitary
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 11:03:31 PM
People and animals are taught methods, not desires and dispositions.
A kid might not be able to 'wipe its ass' without being taught, but leave a little one alone in a crib with a dirty diaper and it will try to remove the source of pain - such as by ripping the diaper off.
There's a basic level of behavior in animal species that's purely instinctive, which is why even animals which "can't learn" by definition (such as worms, which are just a collection of nerve endings) behave in instinctive ways.
No, you said
QuoteI said that good/bad is determined by evolutionary genetics - people have instinctive knowledge of right/wrong on a basic level.
That implys that morality is genetic when it is not, it is learned, it is taught, there is NO morality that is genetic. And the problem with proving that is that no one wants to subject a human infant to the test. But we can see it and we do see it everyday in the behavior of our infants. They MUST be taught morality.
Let me back up and say that yes we must teach morality, but I agree and argue that morality is and continues to be a learned behavior that follows the simple maxim that cooperation is better than instigation. Survival is enhanced by mutual agreement. This is the basics of morality, survival in a tribe, in a culture, in a society . This is why we teach morality to speed up the process of socially accepted behavior to enhance our children's chances of survival and success. Some of that is selfish whether we admit it or not, we want our kids to be successful to enhance our standing as well.
"Secular Religion" is a contradiction in terms. The term "secular" means: denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
You can have secular philosophies, such as secular humanism, but these are not religions, and unlike religions you are free to adjust a philosophy as needed.
Quote from: Ace101 on March 28, 2015, 09:55:48 PM
But everyone lives for something - the only way to not have purpose is to just 'not live'.
I'd say 'morality' is embedded into genetics - even animals have instincts that guide their actions. They don't just 'kill each other' right and left, so saying it's completely 'subjective' isn't true.
I follow a diest religion, I believe that purpose in life is embedded into genetics and comes from evolution - e.x. creating a positive legacy, which is the 'purpose' that animals live for despite not knowing what morals are
Ace, thanks for your reply.
1--Life's purpose--you suggest that 'everyone lives for something'; okay, most do. But I was projecting you saying that we need a Purpose, such as a religious person would suggest god gave to us. I have never had a Purpose. Yet I do find things to live for. I think of it in the terms of Joseph Campbell when he suggest that the purpose of life is life; and that for a person to find meaning in his/her life, follow your bliss. So, I follow my bliss. My bliss is totally subjective in that I am the one who gives it meaning. I don't care if it has meaning for you or not; it's my meaning, my bliss. You have to find your own on your own.
2--Morality. The reason I say that morality is subjective is because each society creates it's own morality. There is no act that is universally condemned across all societies. Not one that I can find. So, if there are no universals, how can morals be objective? Each group creates standards of behavior for the good of that group. Sparta's morality was different than Athens. The Crips morality is different than the Bloods--and mine. And my morality is different than yours. I create mine, just as you create yours. Yes, humans do have some instincts, such as the need to breath, grasping in babies and so on. But those are of the most basal kind and would not really impact a philosophy or moral behavior.
3--So, for you, God was the first cause? He created all, then stepped aside and no longer interacts with his creation? Do you think there is an afterlife? Does it have to be earned? Or do all just go there after death? What of animals--is there an afterlife for them, as well?
To counter your claim that people "know" that raping babies is wrong, what do you say to the pedophiles? They are possessed by a physical attraction to younger children. And the existence of groups like NAMBLA show that they don't feel as if they are ding anything wrong. So dipshit, there goes the backbone of your argument that morality is inherent.
Morality is nothing more than what the group in power says is ok. 200 years ago slavery was acceptable and moral in the U.S. Today it is not. Why? because morality has changed. And now my personal favorite from the "morality is inherent" dipshits(such as yourself). Murder. Murder of ones own group is frowned upon because it effected the ability to survive as a group. HOWEVER we as human beings have no issue with murdering other groups when at war and see nothing wrong with it today. So murder must not be inherently immoral.
That is a horrible question to ask. How about, why do people feel the need to have a religion at all? How about accepting that our morality is not in a club or a book, but in our evolution?
If one can look outside their own and accept those outside can do good and be good then that should say that EVERYONE is doing it because of our natural empathy.