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In my belief, Justice is created when the initial factors of a crime are corrected so that the person can be useful in society.

For instance, if they are mentally unstable or an addict, they get treatment.

The role of Jails should be similar, providing treatment for those who need it. The way things are now, Tax dollars are being funded to keep prisoners that are just going to stay there when they have the capabilities to help us if we help them. Treatment is expensive, but ultimately leads a better society where people can care for each other. Only those who refuse or cannot accept treatment should remain in Jails, and even then should be treated with respect as any other man or woman.

Jails are where we put people we label as problems so we don't have to deal with them. Our mentally ill and people made criminals by ridiculous laws like possession of pot are in there, otherwise productive people shut away for no good reason. Prisons should be for the purpose of dealing with the worst, hardened criminals and murderers beyond any redemption. If we did so, there would be very few people in there.

If we got rid of low level drug offenses alone, it would empty many prisons. People who are mentally ill should be treated, not caged.

Jails do a number of things: punish wrongdoers, isolate harmful people from society, act as a deterrent, and provide rehabilitation. Sadly, the latter tends to be sorely lacking in this world...

IF I was in charge, the first thing I would do is eliminate bar bells and weights, what is the common sense of having a guy with a penchant for crime going to jail at 170 lbs and coming out at 275 with enough muscle to rip a door off a car? Replace the weights with books. Start remedial classes, install skilled trades training, computer training, make jail more of a junior college. Unlike some here however, the folks proven to have killed someone simply gets  pill at night one day and wake up dead. The rest we deal with on an individual basis.

What's the point of prisons if they are merely warehouses for criminals? It seems prisons are today's lackluster and backwards emotional need for revenge. Surely we're better than that.

Overall good ideas.

There is no such thing as justice, only injustice and revenge! Is it justice for OJ's children that he is found guilty? Solitary

Quote from: aitm on February 21, 2015, 09:13:09 AM
IF I was in charge, the first thing I would do is eliminate bar bells and weights, what is the common sense of having a guy with a penchant for crime going to jail at 170 lbs and coming out at 275 with enough muscle to rip a door off a car? Replace the weights with books. Start remedial classes, install skilled trades training, computer training, make jail more of a junior college. Unlike some here however, the folks proven to have killed someone simply gets  pill at night one day and wake up dead. The rest we deal with on an individual basis.

I agree with aitm. Jails should be secular institutes of learning teaching trade skills, providing education and have psychiatrists on board to deal with the things that made them criminals in the first place. Jails too often don't fix the problem, they make it worse.

Quote from: dtq123 on February 20, 2015, 05:06:52 PM
What is Justice to you?

The righting of a wrong done.

Quote from: aitm on February 21, 2015, 09:13:09 AM
IF I was in charge, the first thing I would do is eliminate bar bells and weights, what is the common sense of having a guy with a penchant for crime going to jail at 170 lbs and coming out at 275 with enough muscle to rip a door off a car? Replace the weights with books. Start remedial classes, install skilled trades training, computer training, make jail more of a junior college. Unlike some here however, the folks proven to have killed someone simply gets  pill at night one day and wake up dead. The rest we deal with on an individual basis.

So you'd rather have smarter ex-criminals than stronger ex-criminals.

I'm not sure which bothers me more.

Quote from: Jason78 on February 22, 2015, 11:34:20 PM

So you'd rather have smarter ex-criminals than stronger ex-criminals.

I think that most criminals had no real intention of being a criminal. I believe the majority of evidence supports the position that most criminals are driven by poverty which is and can be directly related to a lack of or a poor education leaving them with no marketable skills. I cannot guarantee that giving these people a marketable skill will make them less likely to commit another crime, but for sure what we are doing is not achieving any positive results for recidivism. And, I can still probably fight the rat-bastards off if they only weight 175lbs :)

The reason weights are so common is because it is a static exercise that is cheap to implement and had little upkeep costs, where implementing schools and providing psychological counseling entails hiring people and is not a static activity but a dynamic one. If you have nothing to do but static physical activity and live in a constantly threatening environment, lifting weights is almost the default result.

The law should be about protecting society and not for profit or retaliation. I would rather have educated criminals that can get out of poverty that cause most of the crimes, even drugs. And why are CEO's allowed to hurt more people than drug users just because the government only thinks it is about money and nonentities, and not criminals that destroy lives and the environment for profit?  Solitary

The problem of prisons in the US is baffling.  I have spent time in jail and I am now a police officer.  It gives me a different perspective than my fellow officers.  I try to get through to some of the younger guys that our justice system over-criminalizes a host of minor infractions such as drugs, underage drinking, traffic violations, etc.  That, and teaching them people are not “criminals”, they are just people who for whatever reason have done something illegal and that they need to be treated decently, like they would want their family treated.  But it’s hard because they have been indoctrinated into this idea of “bag guys” just like everyone else in the US.

But that’s all academic.  Until prisons are made unprofitable by forcing them to incorporate real (yet costly) rehabilitation, they will continue to be filled by corrupt judges receiving kick-backs.  People are led to believe that prisons protect them by keeping away the “bad people”, which just isn’t true.  The security and protection industry runs fear advertising campaigns that make people believe they are really in danger all the time.  It’s really sick and it looks like there’s no end in sight.

Am I rambling?  Sorry.

Good points. Welcome.

All of the above and more. Jails and prisons are places the wealthiest Americans get to get free or almost free labor and to use as the worse racism easily and readily available to marginalize minorities. In essence it's the new Jim Crow. Read Michelle Alexander if you want a feel for what the "corrections" system has done to our nation.

Think "fear" and how it's been portrayed over the years and many who believe that anyone who is ever in a jail deserves to be there and if shown any human decency it only encourages bad behavior. There was for some time the myth of inmates somehow getting over on the population because they might have had carpet in a cell and the other myth that somehow prison rapists somehow do society some big favor by teaching lesser men a lesson about good behavior.  It's a real sick mentality that demands people in prison to be treated as badly as possible and that somehow will magically convert them into law abiding, productive citizens. Even worse is the belief that somehow private, for profit prison is better for anyone or it somehow will be cost effective because government always cost more..

Agree with most comments here, I'd say that jails should be more rehabilitative. Often jails are merely measures of punishment, and the people who end up paroled, are worse than when they initially were incarcerated.

As things are, prisons in America tend to be more like a university for hardened criminals than an actual punishment. Logically speaking, if the punishment method isn't working, try rehabilitation. If nothing else, you'll at least keep their minds occupied so they aren't figuring out ways to be better criminals when they get out.

QuoteJustice has been the common patrimony of humanity throughout the ages. It does not cease to exist for the majority even when it [is] twisted in some (“exclusive”) circles. Obviously it is a concept which is inherent in man, since it cannot be traced to any other source. Justice exists even if there are only a few individuals who recognize it as such. The love of justice seems to me to be a different sentiment from the love of people (or at least the two only coincide partially). And in periods of mass decadence, when the question is posed, “Why bother? What are the sacrifices for?”it is possible to answer with certainty: “for justice.”There is nothing relative about justice, as there is nothing relative about conscience. Indeed, justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually also recognizes the voice of justice. I consider that in all social or historical questions (if we are aware of them, not from heresay or books, but are touched by them spiritually), justice will always suggest a way of action (or thinking) that is not in conflict with one’s conscience.

~~RESISTANCE IN THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO (1918-1956) By Donald G. Boudreau, PhD, MPA

Good read by the way.. It's free on Kindle

Quote(Justice) Obviously it is a concept which is inherent in man, since it cannot be traced to any other source.

This is not true at all, only retribution and revenge from our basic animal instincts turns two wrongs into a right which is not logical because it is done for the same reason a criminal justifies what he does, so people don't feel guilty for being no different than a criminal with being the basic animal we are. It's based on emotions and not sound reasoning, which shows that the so-called justice system should be for protecting society, not personal feelings.

If some criminal harms my family, forget what I wrote. That still doesn't make it right just because societies laws say it is. Might is not right, even if it seems to exist in our lives, and every Tom Dick and Jane think it is..  I'm being serious about this. How many people throughout history have been wronged because of mob rule and, "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"? Solitary

The modern jail is a result of evolution.  It isn't what it started out as.

Originally jail wasn't the punishment.  Jail was simply where you went to await punishment.  It could be indentured servitude, it could be flogging, it could be exile, it could be capital punishment.  There was no jail time as punishment.

At some point, it was concluded that rehabilitation would work better than punishment, and the rehabilitation was better served in jail than elsewhere.  That trend still exists but not as strongly as it could have been.  The end result is that people started to consider time in jail to be the punishment, and as a result more serious crimes (sic) were sentenced to longer sentences.

Overlook in the question of punishment and rehabilitation is what I consider the real goal of justice.  The goal should be restitution.  The victim of the crime should be compensated to the best the circumstances allow.  It won't always be possible, especially since real crimes are very hard to compensate.  How does one compensate rape or murder?  Still, rehabilitation should be the goal of justice.