I remember back in high school, when everyone was concerned with conforming and being accepted. Interestingly, I've noticed this same behavior where I work, in occasional social settings, and online. So, I decided to a little research, and apparently...''herd mentality'' is a survival tactic and a rather 'natural' human behavior. This author of this article suggested that as humans, we wish to be accepted by our peers, our communities, and our co-workers. Okay, I get that. But, suppose the herd is a bunch of douche bags? Suppose the herd is full of bullies, and people who, if you dissent from the herd, will shun you? So, a person should merely go along with the herd, for survival? To be liked? To be accepted?
I'm not a herd follower, and I never have been. It is a quality that I cannot stand in adults. Children, ok. They're children. But when I see this behavior displayed amongst adults, I feel like I'm watching a bad comedian bomb over and over again. I just cringe. Now, there's nothing wrong with agreeing with the herd, if you genuinely agree with the herd. But, if you don't, and you are merely kissing asses as to be accepted...what are you really gaining? Fake friends? A phony network of people who enjoy you kissing their asses?
Equally interesting, I read an article last year about bullying, and how the psychology behind people who are groupies of the bullies, really don't like the bullies at all, as might be perceived from an outsider. Rather, people don't want to ever become the target of the bullies, so they befriend them. It's pretty interesting. I'd rather live on a deserted island, not compromising my values or ideas, if the only other option was to be in a community filled with people who expect me to agree with them, or be shunned.
So, I'm curious...do you ever see this behavior displayed in your everyday life? If so, do you react?
Hopeful to have a meaningful discussion about it.
Where's the smileys? :=P
I hate to tell you this, but high school pretty much defines and sets who we are. The jocks and preppies are still there in an altered form, along with the cheerleaders and nerds. It never changes.
Herd mentality is an unescapable human trait. It's not inherently bad, nor good. It just is. Everybody conforms to some things and some people in some aspects in their lives sometimes.
While there are many dangers in the inherent herd mentality of our species, especially in our present day Western culture focussed mainly on the created need for individuality, this does not mean that it's a bad quality in and by itself. It just is. In some instances, like bullying etc. I would agree that it is better to go against 'the herd'. But at it's core, herd mentality is simply one of the defining aspects of our species; a social species.
Trust, selfishlessness, comradery, love, ... these are things that came out of the herd-life of our ancestors and have grown and evolved along with us to this day. Without the herd mentality, we wouldn't even experience these things let alone be able to name them. It were those packs and herds of our ancestors that learned to work together and to work well survived. Those that could recognize their peers and felt bonded to them and so would try to save them if they could... those were the connections that could face the outer world. There is strength in unity, as there is strength in individuality.
I'm both a part of the collective and an individual. I recognize both sides, for both make me who I am.
QuoteEVERY MAN is in certain respects;
a. like all other men,
b. like some other men,
c. like no other man.
source: Henry A. Murray and Clyde Kluckhohn, from Personality in Nature, Society, and Culture (1953).
Quote from: stromboli on October 08, 2014, 06:14:05 PM
I hate to tell you this, but high school pretty much defines and sets who we are. The jocks and preppies are still there in an altered form, along with the cheerleaders and nerds. It never changes.
perhaps, but we have the ability to not follow the herd. depends on how badly one wishes to 'fit in,' I suppose. everyone wants to fit in...to varying degrees...but high school's over.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on October 08, 2014, 06:28:51 PM
Herd mentality is an unescapable human trait. It's not inherently bad, nor good. It just is. Everybody conforms to some things and some people in some aspects in their lives sometimes.
While there are many dangers in the inherent herd mentality of our species, especially in our present day Western culture focussed mainly on the created need for individuality, this does not mean that it's a bad quality in and by itself. It just is. In some instances, like bullying etc. I would agree that it is better to go against 'the herd'. But at it's core, herd mentality is simply one of the defining aspects of our species; a social species.
Trust, selfishlessness, comradery, love, ... these are things that came out of the herd-life of our ancestors and have grown and evolved along with us to this day. Without the herd mentality, we wouldn't even experience these things let alone be able to name them. It were those packs and herds of our ancestors that learned to work together and to work well survived. Those that could recognize their peers and felt bonded to them and so would try to save them if they could... those were the connections that could face the outer world. There is strength in unity, as there is strength in individuality.
I'm both a part of the collective and an individual. I recognize both sides, for both make me who I am.
source: Henry A. Murray and Clyde Kluckhohn, from Personality in Nature, Society, and Culture (1953).
I wish I could add to this brilliant post, but I can't. It's that brilliant. :=)
Seriously, excellent points. I should have spent a little more time on my OP...and clarified that I'm thinking more along the lines of bullying/herd mentality, as opposed to people forming tribal units throughout history ...to form cohesive bonds, as a tool for survival. Wanting to be a part of 'something greater,' is very much a human trait, and not inherently bad.
Quote from: Deidre32 on October 08, 2014, 07:48:49 PM
perhaps, but we have the ability to not follow the herd. depends on how badly one wishes to 'fit in,' I suppose. everyone wants to fit in...to varying degrees...but high school's over.
I worked for the defense department all told for 28 years, in several different jobs, starting as an aircraft welder. I left as a Technical Editor because they finally found a job that fit my degree; I got turned down for several management positions in that time, maybe half a dozen. I actually had a case where I was the senior person for the job, nailed the interview- because I was the most qualified- and they canceled the job slot just to not promote me. All through that time I saw the repetitive buddy promoting buddy and same cliquishness that existed in high school. After a long time and the obvious problem created by promoting incompetent yes men into mid and upper management positions, and near the end of my employment before retirement, they promoted a "think outside the box" line of BS. I was an outside the box thinker from day one, which mostly got me targeted as an oddball. The only thing think outside the box did was label you as not a team player.
I was moved twice for pointing out incorrect and/or illegal methods being used by management avoiding safety issues; so much for thinking outside the box. I can't speak much for private industry, but I can tell you the good ol' boy network definitely exists in the DOD. I retired as a GS-9 and would've been a GS-11, a big pay raise, but I would have had to wait like 4 years, and I had enough time and couldn't stand the place any longer. I actually held down 4 jobs at the end- Technical Editor, Assistant facilities manager, equipment custodian and I ran the break room coffee fund and party fund. Fuck em.'
the "herd mentality" is always dependent on the threat to the herd. The less the threat the less the "herd"..the greater the threat the more the "herd", as it should be.
Quote from: aitm on October 08, 2014, 08:28:34 PM
the "herd mentality" is always dependent on the threat to the herd. The less the threat the less the "herd"..the greater the threat the more the "herd", as it should be.
Yeah, if you want to see herd mentality visit a Mormon church. We're talking sheep, so more technically a flock mentality.
the "herd mentality" is probably,,and arguably the single greatest survival ....whatchamacallit that animals have developed.
Quote from: Deidre32 on October 08, 2014, 05:59:00 PM
But, suppose the herd is a bunch of douche bags? Suppose the herd is full of bullies, and people who, if you dissent from the herd, will shun you? So, a person should merely go along with the herd, for survival? To be liked? To be accepted?
Nope. You find a different herd.
Quote from: Mermaid on October 08, 2014, 08:54:02 PM
Nope. You find a different herd.
History would suggest that survival over rules ones personal views of their position in the "herd".
Quote from: stromboli on October 08, 2014, 06:14:05 PM
I hate to tell you this, but high school pretty much defines and sets who we are. The jocks and preppies are still there in an altered form, along with the cheerleaders and nerds. It never changes.
To some degree I suppose. I was kind of in both worlds in HS. I wanted to fit, but never really felt that I did fit any 'group'. I was on the football team--even played both ways so I was on the field for the entire game. So, I guess I was in the football team group, but not in the 'inner group'. I admit I was much more a nerd than jock, but I did not fit there either. I kind of bounced around. I hated HS. I wanted a 'herd' in the worst way. I had a similar experience in the Army. Have to be in a herd there--I just did not like it all that much. Then when I became a teacher I had to be in a 'herd' of fellow teachers. That was better because by this time I had accepted that I did not like being in a 'herd' and found that it was becoming easier for me to personally deal with that feeling. So I sought to work in the 'continuation school' system, which was much smaller. I worked at a school with 4 teachers, counting me. That was a good experience because all 4 of us were 'outsider' types. Then I moved on to a Juvenile Hall slot in which I was the only teacher; the job grew until we had to have one more teacher. That was my niche. The two of us worked well together.
I have now accepted the fact that I usually don't like being in any herd and that the herd mentality I find distasteful. I am a loner, basically, and like it like that. Me, myself and I, make great company; whereas that used to cause angst a bit, it no longer does. I kinda like the motto--leave me the fuck alone! I no longer am the nerdy/jock hybrid from HS. And that gives me satisfaction.
Quote from: Mermaid on October 08, 2014, 08:54:02 PM
Nope. You find a different herd.
Or come to accept the idea of living outside the herd. Or being outside it in the areas we can be.
Quote from: stromboli on October 08, 2014, 08:23:24 PM
I worked for the defense department all told for 28 years, in several different jobs, starting as an aircraft welder. I left as a Technical Editor because they finally found a job that fit my degree; I got turned down for several management positions in that time, maybe half a dozen. I actually had a case where I was the senior person for the job, nailed the interview- because I was the most qualified- and they canceled the job slot just to not promote me. All through that time I saw the repetitive buddy promoting buddy and same cliquishness that existed in high school. After a long time and the obvious problem created by promoting incompetent yes men into mid and upper management positions, and near the end of my employment before retirement, they promoted a "think outside the box" line of BS. I was an outside the box thinker from day one, which mostly got me targeted as an oddball. The only thing think outside the box did was label you as not a team player.
I was moved twice for pointing out incorrect and/or illegal methods being used by management avoiding safety issues; so much for thinking outside the box. I can't speak much for private industry, but I can tell you the good ol' boy network definitely exists in the DOD. I retired as a GS-9 and would've been a GS-11, a big pay raise, but I would have had to wait like 4 years, and I had enough time and couldn't stand the place any longer. I actually held down 4 jobs at the end- Technical Editor, Assistant facilities manager, equipment custodian and I ran the break room coffee fund and party fund. Fuck em.'
This is it! This type of thing was exactly what I had in mind that prompted my thread. Whether it's at work, or in social networks, or online...this is what I mean. I'm so sorry you went through this. It's so wrong. I hate herd mentality. I always stick up for the under dog because I've been the under dog before. I deactivated facebook over herd mentality gone wild. I remember one day I popped on to look at some of my friends' updates...one friend posted something frivolous...a selfie of her holding a cup of coffee, and her status was...something along the lines of ''caffeine overdose.'' She had a ton of 'likes'...and comments. I have another friend who on that same day posted that she had received high honors at her job, and she was getting a promotion. She had a handful of likes and no comments. Well, I commented.
My friend with the coffee pic was the more popular one than the other. It got to the point, where this crap was the norm...and I eventually deactivated my page. I find FB to be an absolute joke of a site, as it breeds herd mentality, and competitiveness.
Your story is exactly all that is wrong with our world...herd mentality gone bad.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 08, 2014, 09:21:55 PM
Or come to accept the idea of living outside the herd. Or being outside it in the areas we can be.
so much this.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 08, 2014, 09:19:13 PM
To some degree I suppose. I was kind of in both worlds in HS. I wanted to fit, but never really felt that I did fit any 'group'. I was on the football team--even played both ways so I was on the field for the entire game. So, I guess I was in the football team group, but not in the 'inner group'. I admit I was much more a nerd than jock, but I did not fit there either. I kind of bounced around. I hated HS. I wanted a 'herd' in the worst way. I had a similar experience in the Army. Have to be in a herd there--I just did not like it all that much. Then when I became a teacher I had to be in a 'herd' of fellow teachers. That was better because by this time I had accepted that I did not like being in a 'herd' and found that it was becoming easier for me to personally deal with that feeling. So I sought to work in the 'continuation school' system, which was much smaller. I worked at a school with 4 teachers, counting me. That was a good experience because all 4 of us were 'outsider' types. Then I moved on to a Juvenile Hall slot in which I was the only teacher; the job grew until we had to have one more teacher. That was my niche. The two of us worked well together.
I have now accepted the fact that I usually don't like being in any herd and that the herd mentality I find distasteful. I am a loner, basically, and like it like that. Me, myself and I, make great company; whereas that used to cause angst a bit, it no longer does. I kinda like the motto--leave me the fuck alone! I no longer am the nerdy/jock hybrid from HS. And that gives me satisfaction.
I think "loner" probably fits a lot of us, it certainly does me. Everything I do socially and even my family relationships are for my wife's sake and not mine. I've told her more than once that without her around, I would probably live in a cave in the wilderness.
Quote from: stromboli on October 08, 2014, 09:54:31 PM
I think "loner" probably fits a lot of us, it certainly does me. Everything I do socially and even my family relationships are for my wife's sake and not mine. I've told her more than once that without her around, I would probably live in a cave in the wilderness.
I spend a lot of time out with friends, and it's been a long process of choosing the 'right' friends, for me to want to be social. I have no desire to sit around laughing at jokes I don't find funny, in hopes of fitting in. Or kissing ass with work colleagues at happy hour, in hopes I'll get ahead. Nope. I used to follow the herd. I'm 33, but in my 20's...I followed the herd more. It got me absolutely nowhere, except angry with myself, and it never feels good in the end, to go against your own values to please others. Having said all that, I enjoy my alone time. Not sure I'd call myself a loner, but I would rather BE alone than cow tow to the herd. I appreciate your story, it really captures what I was trying to convey about it.
As others have said, and I've read myself, herd mentality can be a good thing. We as humans, like to feel cohesive and part of a unit. But, it's often displayed in an unhealthy way.
And frankly...the herds I speak of, I've never found worth joining. Online or offline. Sometimes online, when I run across 'herds,' it's almost like there's one person logged in, posting under a variety of usernames. lol That's how similar the thinking, jokes and posts become after a while, within the herd. ^_^
Quote from: stromboli on October 08, 2014, 09:54:31 PM
I think "loner" probably fits a lot of us, it certainly does me. Everything I do socially and even my family relationships are for my wife's sake and not mine. I've told her more than once that without her around, I would probably live in a cave in the wilderness.
Yeah, a cave would be good. As long as I can have my computer and books. The computer is for games and the books--well, books are good for everything. And I would like one or two of my furry children; they are the best partners one can have!
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 08, 2014, 10:13:30 PM
Yeah, a cave would be good. As long as I can have my computer and books. The computer is for games and the books--well, books are good for everything. And I would like one or two of my furry children; they are the best partners one can have!
Awww...yes. :) My cats make a great herd. <3
A cave where I can still talk to all of you? I'm in.
:=D
Quote from: Deidre32 on October 08, 2014, 09:51:34 PM
This is it! This type of thing was exactly what I had in mind that prompted my thread. Whether it's at work, or in social networks, or online...this is what I mean. I'm so sorry you went through this. It's so wrong. I hate herd mentality. I always stick up for the under dog because I've been the under dog before. I deactivated facebook over herd mentality gone wild. I remember one day I popped on to look at some of my friends' updates...one friend posted something frivolous...a selfie of her holding a cup of coffee, and her status was...something along the lines of ''caffeine overdose.'' She had a ton of 'likes'...and comments. I have another friend who on that same day posted that she had received high honors at her job, and she was getting a promotion. She had a handful of likes and no comments. Well, I commented.
My friend with the coffee pic was the more popular one than the other. It got to the point, where this crap was the norm...and I eventually deactivated my page. I find FB to be an absolute joke of a site, as it breeds herd mentality, and competitiveness.
Your story is exactly all that is wrong with our world...herd mentality gone bad.
I had the same experience with FB--was on it for awhile--maybe a month--and grew so bored with it that I simply stopped going to it. I hate phones since they are so demanding--no matter what I'm doing, I must drop it and answer the damned thing. And I find that I am too dumb for a smart phone--my flip top phone is too much for me. :) I only have that because my wife insists.
I'm impressed you have come to the point you have at the tender age of 33. I was much older when I came to embrace being out of the herd. You must be capable of much honest introspection to have come this far. That is a good thing--no, great thing! Keep it up.
I think my idea of a cave is a little different than yours.
(http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/festus-01.jpg)
We're talking near zero heat and cooling costs, and built in the right way literally earthquake and fire proof. there is a home in Idaho that is practically a mansion, but I don't have pics of it. A couple built a home in the middle of a forest in the Sierra Nevadas that survived multiple wildfires because there was nothing to burn, and the cave was spacious enough to provide sufficient oxygen to ride it out.
Quote from: stromboli on October 08, 2014, 10:59:21 PM
I think my idea of a cave is a little different than yours.
(http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/festus-01.jpg)
We're talking near zero heat and cooling costs, and built in the right way literally earthquake and fire proof. there is a home in Idaho that is practically a mansion, but I don't have pics of it. A couple built a home in the middle of a forest in the Sierra Nevadas that survived multiple wildfires because there was nothing to burn, and the cave was spacious enough to provide sufficient oxygen to ride it out.
That is simply amazing!! My grandparents had 11 acres situated in the Douglas Fir forest 25 miles north of Portland, Or. Some of my first memories are of being at the 'farm'. It had it's own water source--two springs originating on the property. But it was fairly hilly. Above their house was a steep hill--too steep to farm. For years, my dream (of the pipe sort) was dig a home out of that hill, with about 1/4 of it exposed. That house you picture is pretty close to what I saw in my mind.
Yeah--I could live in a cave like that quite easily!!
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 08, 2014, 10:20:55 PM
I had the same experience with FB--was on it for awhile--maybe a month--and grew so bored with it that I simply stopped going to it. I hate phones since they are so demanding--no matter what I'm doing, I must drop it and answer the damned thing. And I find that I am too dumb for a smart phone--my flip top phone is too much for me. :) I only have that because my wife insists.
I'm impressed you have come to the point you have at the tender age of 33. I was much older when I came to embrace being out of the herd. You must be capable of much honest introspection to have come this far. That is a good thing--no, great thing! Keep it up.
Aw, thank you for saying this. *hug*
When I was a kid, I didn't know how to articulate my feelings, but definitely recognized herd mentality back in school. Bullies, etc. The bad kids always seemed to get ahead, and often by hurting others. They were always the center of attention, and seemed to make everyone laugh. I don't like that. :(
And the sad part isn't that bullies exist, but rather that they have a following.
Relating to FB, yes, I found it boring. It was fun at first, but...meh. It really should be renamed to attentionwhore.com
At least that fits. ^_^
Quote from: stromboli on October 08, 2014, 10:59:21 PM
I think my idea of a cave is a little different than yours.
(http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/festus-01.jpg)
We're talking near zero heat and cooling costs, and built in the right way literally earthquake and fire proof. there is a home in Idaho that is practically a mansion, but I don't have pics of it. A couple built a home in the middle of a forest in the Sierra Nevadas that survived multiple wildfires because there was nothing to burn, and the cave was spacious enough to provide sufficient oxygen to ride it out.
I could become a cave dweller... oh yea! That's so cool!
:)
I had a job that I really liked one time with 7 colleagues that constituted the main herd. I didn't fit in with that herd. I ran with a different herd. It probably cost me some office politics points too. I really wished I was part of the main herd, but I recognized I had better friends in other places. But I still liked the job. It was bitter-sweet. I've had many jobs, where the main herd was of no interest to me at all. I think I'm a natural outsider. If I were a wolf, I'd probably be run out of the pack. Oh wait, look at my avatar. I am a wolf. Oh my!
Quote from: aitm on October 08, 2014, 09:12:07 PM
History would suggest that survival over rules ones personal views of their position in the "herd".
But herds have different dynamics. The trick is to find one that aligns with you.
Like Ferris Bueller: The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, wastoids, dweebies, dickheads; they all adored him. They thought he was a righteous dude.
Quote from: SGOS on October 09, 2014, 03:52:19 AM
I had a job that I really liked one time with 7 colleagues that constituted the main herd. I didn't fit in with that herd. I ran with a different herd. It probably cost me some office politics points too. I really wished I was part of the main herd, but I recognized I had better friends in other places. But I still liked the job. It was bitter-sweet. I've had many jobs, where the main herd was of no interest to me at all. I think I'm a natural outsider. If I were a wolf, I'd probably be run out of the pack. Oh wait, look at my avatar. I am a wolf. Oh my!
I don't fit in socially at work, but I keep that to myself. That's how I have learned to adapt. I never show my cards. Most of them are Christians who would plotz if they ever heard Howard Stern.
:shifty:
Quote from: Deidre32 on October 08, 2014, 10:02:51 PM
And frankly...the herds I speak of, I've never found worth joining. Online or offline. Sometimes online, when I run across 'herds,' it's almost like there's one person logged in, posting under a variety of usernames. lol That's how similar the thinking, jokes and posts become after a while, within the herd. ^_^
Welcome to the AF herd and if you stray to far from the herd one of the guys in white hats (mods) will lasso you around the neck and either drag you back into the herd or mercifully put a new shiny ban hammer over your head and leave you to the vultures. :shifty:
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 09, 2014, 08:18:23 AM
:shifty:Welcome to the AF herd and if you stray to far from the herd one of the guys in white hats (mods) will lasso you around the neck and either drag you back into the herd or mercifully put a new shiny ban hammer over your head and leave you to the vultures. :shifty:
Lol!
Hmmmm.... ^_^
Quote from: Mermaid on October 09, 2014, 07:37:46 AM
But herds have different dynamics. The trick is to find one that aligns with you.
Like Ferris Bueller: The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, wastoids, dweebies, dickheads; they all adored him. They thought he was a righteous dude.
Or just do your own thing and treat everyone as individuals.
Quote from: SGOS on October 09, 2014, 03:52:19 AM
I had a job that I really liked one time with 7 colleagues that constituted the main herd. I didn't fit in with that herd. I ran with a different herd. It probably cost me some office politics points too. I really wished I was part of the main herd, but I recognized I had better friends in other places. But I still liked the job. It was bitter-sweet. I've had many jobs, where the main herd was of no interest to me at all. I think I'm a natural outsider. If I were a wolf, I'd probably be run out of the pack. Oh wait, look at my avatar. I am a wolf. Oh my!
Oh yes--office politics. I hate, hate, hate that shit! And that has caused problems for me at various times. Hated it in grade school, HS, college (was asked to join a couple of frats, but I quickly learned that frat politics is horrid) and especially the Army. In the Army I was a Military Intelligence Special Agent (whoa--what a title) and had to interview people who knew those applying for a Top Secret clearance; that was fun! I mean, driving around talking to people everywhere from field workers to generals and ceo's really was interesting. Much better than carrying a rifle and killing people. But, since the Army's job really is killing people, I would do that one day if I stayed in--or learn the game of office politics at a much higher level; didn't want to do that , so I did not reup. When I became a teacher office politics was still around; they just don't have a college class covering it. Somehow I learned that there would be less of it if I got into the new field (it was then) of what CA called 'continuation schools'--schools for the misfits, more or less. Just down my alley. And there was even less in the field of Juvenile Hall education--there was some, but I could deal with it. Hate office politics.
Worked in an office twice in my life, once as copy editor in department store print advertising which is akin to being forced to read out of town phone books everyday and shampoo instructions and then in phone sales which is a cross between TV anchor and lying sack of shit and there isn't much difference.. I've never owned a suit and tie since and more or less perfected my own brand of telling people to fuck off.. I went to self employment and probably should have paid taxes, but got away pretending to never make a profit long enough till my heart and legs gave out. Avoid the politics of ass kissing like the plague and poverty still beats getting shit on your lips.
I'm glad I'm not alone in my sentiments. I've noticed a few of my friends, online and off...run off with different herds and it's sad because they used to be such amazingly unique people. But, they will learn the hard way that the herd is fickle and will turn on you, at a moment's notice. I've seen that happen too often to name. :(
I will not be a lemming! Only individuals have done great things to benefit mankind. Groups of people have always done much to destroy people and things through following a leader or authority. What happens to anyone that tries to be an individual in a group, with their own opinions---even here at this site? Appeal to the masses, band wagon fallacy and name calling. :eek: :angel: :biggrin: Solitary
Never cared for office politics either,and was definitely a victim of it. A good friend of mine at my last job, a single female, called me after I retired all in tears and wanted to talk to me, because she didn't have anyone else she trusted; she had two sons like me, and I helped her move with my truck when she bought a house, so we were fairly close.
She was victimized by office politics. She was a 2nd Class Navy reserve petty officer, a real tough chick, but was being harassed by people because of her standoffish ways. She broke down and cried to me about the harassment, really stupid shit that two people I knew (and hated) were targeting her for. I have always been able to face people down so they left me alone, but I saw others really treated badly. I can't tell you how glad I was to walk out of there.
That's such a shame, Stromboli. That's herd mentality gone illegal. Some herd leaders should be fired and there is justice at times. The herd doesn't always come out on top.
I'm sitting here at work, it's lunch time and I'm reading through this thread thinking about the herds who have hurt me. I'm a rather non confrontational person on average so I tend to just avoid. I may try to gain friendship with the herd but once I see that I need to walk to the beat of their drum as a requirement? Meh, no thanks.
I'm a herd of one and that suits me. :-) And my circle of about ten close real life friends are just amazing. And they loathe herd mentality (what we are discussing here) as well.
Just to add...I'm thinking back to a site I went on a few years ago, unrelated to atheism. There were the occasional bullies but everyone got along and didn't make anyone feel uncomfortable. Well, I left and went back a few weeks ago, not to post just reading and wow, almost the whole site is riddled with bullies and the ass kissers of the bullies. I'm glad I left! I was like why would people bother posting on such a hostile site? It seriously was that bad...bullies and their groupies. That was it. Lol
Quote from: Deidre32 on October 09, 2014, 12:42:07 PM
Just to add...I'm thinking back to a site I went on a few years ago, unrelated to atheism. There were the occasional bullies but everyone got along and didn't make anyone feel uncomfortable. Well, I left and went back a few weeks ago, not to post just reading and wow, almost the whole site is riddled with bullies and the ass kissers of the bullies. I'm glad I left! I was like why would people bother posting on such a hostile site? It seriously was that bad...bullies and their groupies. That was it. Lol
Yes herd dynamics change. The one I mentioned where I didn't fit in, changed after I left, and I almost wished I hadn't left. A few people can leave, and the dynamics change dramatically. On the other hand, early in my career, I walked into a situation where few people could survive. I toughed it out for several years, until two people left, and suddenly, I was working in a dream environment that lasted for years. Then a few more people left, and the politics changed again.
Everyone likes to think they have the perfect idea of what the herd ought to be like or the family structure ought to be like or even the laws of society ought to be like. It's seldom you'll hear anyone say, "You know what? All of my ideas about our society suck and everyone else's is better." It's usually the other way around. Everyone thinks their ideas are always better and most people believe they're smarter than everyone else walking down the street. Most people think they drive better than anyone else in traffic and their eating habits are better than everyone and their taste in music and movies is THE BOMB.. everyone else's tastes sucks..
Well, folks.. we can't all be right.. I know that hurts to hear, but every now and then I come to the realization I'm really not the single greatest human being to ever walk the face of the earth, but I am the single greatest human being in history who has ever lived my life. I'm also the worse and the most average.
I follow the herd when it is my best interest to do so. I'm not the rebellious type because I'm extremely introverted and exist in my own introspective reality. If told to stay in line I am perfectly content to do so because I have no investment in being in line or being out of line and if being in line will stop you from talking and distracting me from my own thoughts I'm happy to do so. I come off as very agreeable because most of the time because I don't really care about what is going on with the group, until it is something that directly affects me and then I will do whatever I want.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 10, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
I follow the herd when it is my best interest to do so. I'm not the rebellious type because I'm extremely introverted and exist in my own introspective reality. If told to stay in line I am perfectly content to do so because I have no investment in being in line or being out of line and if being in line will stop you from talking and distracting me from my own thoughts I'm happy to do so. I come off as very agreeable because most of the time because I don't really care about what is going on with the group, until it is something that directly affects me and then I will do whatever I want.
Congratulations. Seriously. I've often wished I could do that, but I've got this stubborn independent streak, and sometimes it just asserts itself. When people bring up the argument about there not being free will, this is a close as I can relate. I know what to do to get ahead, but there is this strong compulsion to assert myself, and much of the time, it's not what the herd wants.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 10, 2014, 09:54:54 AM
I follow the herd when it is my best interest to do so. I'm not the rebellious type because I'm extremely introverted and exist in my own introspective reality. If told to stay in line I am perfectly content to do so because I have no investment in being in line or being out of line and if being in line will stop you from talking and distracting me from my own thoughts I'm happy to do so. I come off as very agreeable because most of the time because I don't really care about what is going on with the group, until it is something that directly affects me and then I will do whatever I want.
Ah--a fellow traveler. I will follow the path of least resistance if it will get you to leave me alone. But I have a streak of SGOS in me that, at times, makes me want to go against the grain. So, the last several years at work, I would agree with everybody--including my bosses. They would tell me to do something, even if I knew it would not work or not produce the desired results, I would agree with them. But keep on doing what I was doing but calling it the term or terms they used. So, my boss would say--you need to to black in your class; I'd agree. But I'd keep doing white, but call it black, because I knew that black would not work. That got me through each and every time. I wish I had discovered that ploy long ago. :))
As I've gotten older, I speak out much more often since I've discoverd that I don't really give a rat's ass what you reaction will be. What is important to me is what is going on in my own head--not yours.
Quote from: Mike Cl on October 10, 2014, 11:20:56 AM
So, the last several years at work, I would agree with everybody--including my bosses. They would tell me to do something, even if I knew it would not work or not produce the desired results, I would agree with them. But keep on doing what I was doing but calling it the term or terms they used. So, my boss would say--you need to to black in your class; I'd agree. But I'd keep doing white, but call it black, because I knew that black would not work. That got me through each and every time. I wish I had discovered that ploy long ago. :))
I do the same thing at work. Recently our medical director changed our process due to a complaint from a physician extender that she was overworked. The medical director's plan was very reactionary and, while well intentioned, would have created an even bigger, more serious problem. I'm not in management but after analyzing the situation and running through various solutions in my head I figured out a process that would address original complaint without creating more problems. I did my process and figured if the medical director said anything I would just say I thought that is what she wanted. So far everyone is happy. I didn't do this to be oppositional but because I didn't want the hassle of waiting for her plan to fail and then having to sit through another meeting to fix it.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on October 10, 2014, 01:05:10 PM
I do the same thing at work. Recently our medical director changed our process due to a complaint from a physician extender that she was overworked. The medical director's plan was very reactionary and, while well intentioned, would have created an even bigger, more serious problem. I'm not in management but after analyzing the situation and running through various solutions in my head I figured out a process that would address original complaint without creating more problems. I did my process and figured if the medical director said anything I would just say I thought that is what she wanted. So far everyone is happy. I didn't do this to be oppositional but because I didn't want the hassle of waiting for her plan to fail and then having to sit through another meeting to fix it.
Yes, definitely. I did that a few times. My last boss knew me from where we had worked previously, which is why I became the assistant facility manager. I probably saved them thousands fixing shit anyone else would have called a technician for because I have enough mechanical skills to diagnose problems. I fixed several problems as a Technical Editor by doing the unheard of, ignoring the chain of command and going directly to the specialist and asking him for the answer. I didn't care, I was too close to retirement.
I lost a few Christian "friends" who dumped me after I "left their herd." It hurt to know that our friendship was only in existence because we had religion in common. :( I don't know if I've ever intentionally pushed someone out of my life because he/she didn't share my values/beliefs.
Quote from: Deidre32 on October 11, 2014, 12:28:03 AM
I lost a few Christian "friends" who dumped me after I "left their herd." It hurt to know that our friendship was only in existence because we had religion in common. :( I don't know if I've ever intentionally pushed someone out of my life because he/she didn't share my values/beliefs.
Lol, shoulda been there when I left the mormon church. I said hi to a guy I had gone to church with for 8 years and he looked away like I didn't exist. You can imagine what it did to my wife. I joined a Christian church as much to give her a new set of peers as anything else. This is religion- anyone who leaves the fold is suddenly diseased, in the old term a pariah. I've always been a loner and outsider, so I can wear that as a badge, but my wife is much more gregarious than I am. It was tough, but we survived.
Just go with the flow.. It always works out..
(http://www.mousetunes.com/images/typhoonl_02.jpg)
Quote from: stromboli on October 11, 2014, 08:46:52 AM
Lol, shoulda been there when I left the mormon church. I said hi to a guy I had gone to church with for 8 years and he looked away like I didn't exist. You can imagine what it did to my wife. I joined a Christian church as much to give her a new set of peers as anything else. This is religion- anyone who leaves the fold is suddenly diseased, in the old term a pariah. I've always been a loner and outsider, so I can wear that as a badge, but my wife is much more gregarious than I am. It was tough, but we survived.
Nothing that dramatic for me. I married (second marriage) a recovering catholic. Because of the battering I took from my first marriage, I felt I needed some 'spiritual' uplifting. So, we joined the Unity church--after awhile my wife became the board president; I did too about 6 years later. Both of us grew weary of the 'christian' crap we had to endure, and so just quit going. Lucky for me my wife felt the same. My wife is also much more gregarious than I am; but in this area we see pretty much the same thing. But I find I will endure things for her that I will not for anybody else.
Quote from: Deidre32 on October 08, 2014, 05:59:00 PM
I remember back in high school, when everyone was concerned with conforming and being accepted.
Is that what I was supposed to be doing?
QuoteInterestingly, I've noticed this same behavior where I work, in occasional social settings, and online. So, I decided to a little research, and apparently...''herd mentality'' is a survival tactic and a rather 'natural' human behavior. This author of this article suggested that as humans, we wish to be accepted by our peers, our communities, and our co-workers. Okay, I get that. But, suppose the herd is a bunch of douche bags? Suppose the herd is full of bullies, and people who, if you dissent from the herd, will shun you? So, a person should merely go along with the herd, for survival? To be liked? To be accepted?
You seem to forget just how stupid human beings are. We're really fucking dumb and tend to do what's easiest. What's easiest is following our biological impulses, including following the crowd, even when it's to lynch a negro or beat up a fag.
Humans are quite terrible and don't like to think about what they're doing.
To me, I find that life is about your own path and strength and not caring about anything negative anyone has to say about you.
Quote from: stromboli on October 11, 2014, 08:46:52 AM
Lol, shoulda been there when I left the mormon church. I said hi to a guy I had gone to church with for 8 years and he looked away like I didn't exist. You can imagine what it did to my wife. I joined a Christian church as much to give her a new set of peers as anything else. This is religion- anyone who leaves the fold is suddenly diseased, in the old term a pariah. I've always been a loner and outsider, so I can wear that as a badge, but my wife is much more gregarious than I am. It was tough, but we survived.
yes, I know that feeling you both had...it makes me sad, still. Because I thought they were such good friends. We were always there for each other, but now I realize they only cared for me because I was a Christian. :(
Quote from: MattMVS7 on October 11, 2014, 12:23:52 PM
To me, I find that life is about your own path and strength and not caring about anything negative anyone has to say about you.
I agree. But, it can be hard to feel rejected, perhaps is the word I'm looking for? But, I'd rather suffer that I suppose, than stay where I don't really agree with the herd, but am doing so to avoid rejection, if that makes sense. Life's probably simpler than we make it. lol
Quote from: the_antithesis on October 11, 2014, 10:24:34 AM
Is that what I was supposed to be doing?
You seem to forget just how stupid human beings are. We're really fucking dumb and tend to do what's easiest. What's easiest is following our biological impulses, including following the crowd, even when it's to lynch a negro or beat up a fag.
Humans are quite terrible and don't like to think about what they're doing.
True to some degree, but not all humans follow the herd even if it costs them a lot. I'm reminded of the movie Schindler's List...and other great examples of powerful people who were part of their respective herds, and risked a lot to break free from them.
(I don't know how to multi quote here, I don't see a feature? Sorry for all the posts, everyone) lol
Quote from: Deidre32 on October 11, 2014, 01:40:21 PM
True to some degree, but not all humans follow the herd even if it costs them a lot. I'm reminded of the movie Schindler's List...and other great examples of powerful people who were part of their respective herds, and risked a lot to break free from them.
Yes, there are a few aberrations. It usually doesn't work out for them.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ycISeqAgsog/T6MjbCpIhvI/AAAAAAAAAHE/oD3CnVYcM2k/s640/Thief+burning+Ecuador.jpg)
If it comes to burning at the stake then, well...MOOOOOO! BAAAAAAAAAH!
Personally, I've never felt the need to be part of the herd, although at one point I was a bit of an attention seeker (although I still wasn't a herd seeker) if that makes sense.