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Well there's just 11 days until Scotland decides its own fate, and i must admit to being just a wee bit nervous about the outcome.
Anyway before i get into it here's a wee tune, i hope you all like it

http://youtu.be/dZrdo1PuUvQ

Ever since the SNP first announced there would be a referendum the no voters have been ahead in the polls, but recently the gap has narrowed significantly and the latest poll from a cpla days ago puts the Yes campaign  ahead 51% to the no s 49% so its looking like it could be a close one and go either way.

By Paul T Kavanagh
Ever since the independence referendum was announced, Scotland has witnessed a gradual deterioration in the standard of debate, with scaremongering in place of reason and myth masquerading as truth.

This has left many Scots bewildered, and sadly, hopelessly misinformed.

As an antidote to the very many claims put forward by those who would oppose Scotland and her people taking back all of the powers currently reserved to Westminster, Paul T Kavanagh has compiled a humorous but informative A to Z that debunks many of the wild assertions that have made their way into the 'Great Debate'.

The list is updated periodically and checked for accuracy.  We hope it both educates and entertains. 

Non-commercial use of this article is positively encouraged.  Feel free to copy, quote or share
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation

The above article is just a small sample of the shite Bitter Together and the Union apologists have been coming out with to try to put off the voters from choosing freedom against continued English domination.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/30madlj.jpg)

Ill be updating this thread over the next week or so and into next thursday when the big vote takes place, so id appreciate any comments any of you might have,  and ill try not to slip into the local slang or dialect if i can , cant promise tho.

Och Aye The Noo.

My hopes are with you. I have been following this in the news. Good luck on independence. As I've said before, Scotland has a unique identity and a unique culture. They deserve to be independent and should be.

If they want to be independent they should be independent, though I'm concerned about the UK's Trident missiles they have up there, supposedly they're in the best possible location, and I heard that Scotland isn't too fond of nukes

Good luck Bottle, hope it goes your way

Quote from: stromboli on September 08, 2014, 12:36:50 PM
My hopes are with you. I have been following this in the news. Good luck on independence. As I've said before, Scotland has a unique identity and a unique culture. They deserve to be independent and should be.

Thx Stromboli i know Scotland has a wee place in ur heart... :pidu:

Quote from: GrinningYMIR on September 08, 2014, 12:40:16 PM
If they want to be independent they should be independent, though I'm concerned about the UK's Trident missiles they have up there, supposedly they're in the best possible location, and I heard that Scotland isn't too fond of nukes

Good luck Bottle, hope it goes your way

Cheers Grin, so do i but it looks like it could be very close, and most of us here are also concerned about havin nukes on our doorstep and want them removed but we'll have to see what happens.

Is there an identified self interest group that is opposed to independence?  Take out the political bullshit arguments and what do you think the ulterior motive against independence really is?

Quote from: stromboli on September 08, 2014, 12:36:50 PM
My hopes are with you. I have been following this in the news. Good luck on independence. As I've said before, Scotland Texas has a unique identity and a unique culture. They deserve to be independent and should be.

FIFY

The vote will be on my birthday, so that's pretty cool.

As someone of Celtic heritage I have an emotional desire to see Scotland gain it's independence peacefully for the first time in it's history (first Celtic nation to earn it peacefully at all, yeah?). Economically I just fear that it will be hard to keep afloat... structuring awhole new country is not something very easily done.

I think most people realise that it wont be easy but are willing to take a chance an see what happens, and that can only be a good thing imo.
Economically i think we will get by cos all the millions of revenue generated by the north sea will stay in scotland instead of passing us by on its way down to the westminster coffers, and dont forget the scottish whisky industry also is worth millions more , and then u got tourism, more millions .
And with the power to set our own tax rates and such there's nuthing to fear about going it alone.
As i said at the start of this thread all we have been getting from the bitter togethers are scare stories about how bad it will be for us, fuckin total bollox, the unionists are getting worried  because it seems that yes is gaining ground and have a bit of momentum now.

Quote
''The vote will be on my birthday, so that's pretty cool.''

Well Shiranu i hope you have a good next thurs but i hope i have a better one cos honestly if we get it i will be one of  the happiest Scotsman alive....

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 08, 2014, 06:54:08 PM
I think most people realise that it wont be easy but are willing to take a chance an see what happens, and that can only be a good thing imo.
Economically i think we will get by cos all the millions of revenue generated by the north sea will stay in scotland instead of passing us by on its way down to the westminster coffers, and dont forget the scottish whisky industry also is worth millions more , and then u got tourism, more millions .
And with the power to set our own tax rates and such there's nuthing to fear about going it alone.
As i said at the start of this thread all we have been getting from the bitter togethers are scare stories about how bad it will be for us, fuckin total bollox, the unionists are getting worried  because it seems that yes is gaining ground and have a bit of momentum now.

Quote
''The vote will be on my birthday, so that's pretty cool.''

Well Shiranu i hope you have a good next thurs but i hope i have a better one cos honestly if we get it i will be one of  the happiest Scotsman alive....

Wait, I thought the vote is on the 17th?

MERDE!

no mate,. the vote is next thursday the 18th...

Here we go........................

http://youtu.be/pzQ1pNfbe3Q

I'm kinda nervous about it, only because I dunno what it means for the future given I've close friends and family up in scotland who I want to move with one day, but if it goes independent dunno how that'll effect me looking to move there, or even go there for a holiday without ID

Congrats, bottle! Many of my favorite things are Scottish. Liquor... Billy Connoly... Karen Gillan....

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 08, 2014, 09:45:02 PM
Congrats, bottle! Many of my favorite things are Scottish. Liquor... Billy Connoly... Karen Gillan....

Don't forget the wonder that is know as Wee Heavy.

QuoteSome Scottish historians theorize that Charles Stuart didn't flee Scotland after the failed 1745 uprising; instead, he had a few too many Wee Heavies in the Outer Hebrides and then just sort of woke up in France. History may keep her secrets, but you can share the experience of a Wee Heavy. There's a little Jacobite Revolution in every bottle. These are the very strongest of all Scottish ales, with a garnet-brown hue, profound maltiness and high alcohol content.

:jook: :pidu:

Quote from: Munch on September 08, 2014, 09:23:22 PM
I'm kinda nervous about it, only because I dunno what it means for the future given I've close friends and family up in scotland who I want to move with one day, but if it goes independent dunno how that'll effect me looking to move there, or even go there for a holiday without ID

I wouldnt worry about it mate, i dont think were gonna start building the border up as soon as a yes vote comes in, i think travel between Scotland and england will be as easy as it is now, and i also have cousins down south and as they tell me they are all for it and wish us well..

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 08, 2014, 09:45:02 PM
Congrats, bottle! Many of my favorite things are Scottish. Liquor... Billy Connoly... Karen Gillan....

Aye man, i like all of those too, Karen gillan mmmmmm

(http://i62.tinypic.com/5lougw.jpg)

Quote from: Moralnihilist on September 09, 2014, 09:55:37 AM
Don't forget the wonder that is know as Wee Heavy.

Ah Wee Heavy, our other other other National drink.. :jook:

Quote from: stromboli on September 09, 2014, 11:25:21 AM
:jook: :pidu:

Lates news from the campaign, its been reported today that  (pmsfl) prime ministers questions tomorrow in westminster has been cancelled and Smarmy Cameron and his opposite numpty Milleband will travel up here in panic to try to persuade (Beg) voters not to vote yes, they are getting desperate now it seems... :fU:

An now, here's a class tune.

http://youtu.be/-SotTAs9hEM

Aye well , they came, they talked shite, an they left.

Yes the prime minister and his monkey Clegg, milliband the leader of the opposition, and others all came up to Scotland to beg/plead/with us not to go (please please dont leave us)fuckin sickenin.
Cameron couldnt even bring himself to go outside and meet the ordinary voters for fear of being heckled, so he was hidden away in an office building with a room full of his own supporters in Edinburgh.
The same with Milliband , another coward hiding away from the crowds, the only one i saw with any bottle was Prescott out an about in the streets but he was heavy heckled an took some abuse but at least he was out there among it.

A week to go now and its still neck an neck , or as they say, too close too call.
You can tell that westminster are getting worried as all the lies and scaremongering doesnt seem to be having any effect on the voters, yes the bitter togethers are still out there but the yes campaign is shouting the loudest an is being more honest and the people know it...

(http://i59.tinypic.com/9pm9ae.jpg)

GB, don't you think your doing the same kinda thing, as other political groups are, in pinning yes vote gifs around?

I'm completely against this kind of thing overall, because as you say, if the voting system is showing a neck and neck lead in the yes and no, this means in the end half the people voting will be left disillusioned by their own countrymen. Its a ridiculous game and the reason why I don't vote for anything political anymore.

why should half of scotland be made to feel like their opinion matters for nothing in this kind of game?

Quote from: Munch on September 12, 2014, 09:33:17 PM
GB, don't you think your doing the same kinda thing, as other political groups are, in pinning yes vote gifs around?

I'm completely against this kind of thing overall, because as you say, if the voting system is showing a neck and neck lead in the yes and no, this means in the end half the people voting will be left disillusioned by their own countrymen. Its a ridiculous game and the reason why I don't vote for anything political anymore.

why should half of scotland be made to feel like their opinion matters for nothing in this kind of game?

But everyone in the country who intends to vote believes their opinion does matter , wether they are on the Yes side or on the No.
But aye, i think i see what u mean, people on either side mite think that but not until the result is known.
And after its all over half the country will be overjoyed and the other half depressed , but i really hope we can move forward as a nation , free or not.

And as far as ''pinning Yes vote gifs around well i think im entitled considering ill be voting Yes.... :pidu:

If Scotland is really that divided on the issue, then this can only end in tears.

I'm now concerned about reports flying around about the increase to phone bills, and the no voters suffering because of there decision, reports claiming Scottish nationalists will chase out anyone who voted no, as well as supermarkets closing themselves over it, thus huge unemployment.

If claiming this kind of independence is a good thing even at the costs of people's livelihood, then no, more will be lost if it gets this bad. I'm genuinely fearful for my loved ones.

Quote from: Munch on September 13, 2014, 11:38:21 AM
I'm now concerned about reports flying around about the increase to phone bills, and the no voters suffering because of there decision, reports claiming Scottish nationalists will chase out anyone who voted no, as well as supermarkets closing themselves over it, thus huge unemployment.

If claiming this kind of independence is a good thing even at the costs of people's livelihood, then no, more will be lost if it gets this bad. I'm genuinely fearful for my loved ones.

There have been plenty of  '' reports flying around  and most of them from the no camp have been scaremongering shite, u sounding like someone who believes all you are hearing on the news about how bad it will be , how worse off we will be, pessamistic , considering no one knows what will happen .
Dont listen to the lies mate an dont be  '' fearful for your loved ones, that just daft....

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on September 13, 2014, 11:34:18 AM
If Scotland is really that divided on the issue, then this can only end in tears.

Yes its a possibility, but i hope it doesnt happen that after this vote we end up a seriously divided country, but this is the most important vote in our history and emotions are running high
and Families are falling out over this ....

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 13, 2014, 11:58:19 AMYes its a possibility, but i hope it doesnt happen that after this vote we end up a seriously divided country, but this is the most important vote in our history and emotions are running high
and Families are falling out over this ....

Well you go ahead and fix your country with that hope. Me, if I know for a fact I'm headed for an unstable situation, I generally try to avoid it. I'm too pragmatic to allow myself to rely on hope.

Thats just it, nobody knows whats gonna happen and nobody can say for certain that they know for definate this or that.
So until then ill continue to hope  that Yes win and that Scotland will be a better place because of it.

Trust me I am a very pessimistic person and know what Bullshit national and international news spins. And honestly if I didn't have family in Scotland like I do I'd be all for whatever makes you happy. I'm just focused on what matters to me the most, those who I care about and how it will effect them.

So we both agree that the Media spin the bullshite an thats why im saying to you not to believe all this negative cr@p,
Do a bit of digging yourself then come back and tell me how worried/not worried u are, here's a cpla sites u might like to look at.

http://theproblemwithpoliticaljokes.com/scotland-dithers-a-guide-to-the-scottish-independence-referendum/

http://wingsoverscotland.com/

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/19/scottish-independence-76-things-apologise

Well i've looked at a lot of sites and reports already, and there is obviously a lot of fear mongering abound, not just from British politicians but also from scottish as well with threat of what they will do to no voters, like Alex Salmond.
While I hope all I'm reading is a load of fear tactics, it does still give a possible risk scenario, something that may or may not happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vDil1l86cQ

Connery said a long time ago he wouldn't go back to Scotland until it is a free nation. So......

LET'S SEND SEAN CONNERY HOME!

Never really liked Connery, always seemed to be underhanded and egotistical

Quote from: Munch on September 13, 2014, 01:17:34 PM
Well i've looked at a lot of sites and reports already, and there is obviously a lot of fear mongering abound, not just from British politicians but also from scottish as well with threat of what they will do to no voters, like Alex Salmond.
While I hope all I'm reading is a load of fear tactics, it does still give a possible risk scenario, something that may or may not happen.

This is not in reference to Scotland particularly but to anywhere there is political instability. You'll get a flight of capital and a substantial decrease in investment. So money and jobs are going to be scared, at least until the political situation stabilizes. And I believe this would be true for Scotland in the event that it breaks away. But knowing this should be made clear to the population as this also tests the convictions of the population: are you willing to suffer economically to some extent in order to get some more independence? The key word is "more" as no one really knows how much "more" you'll gain, how much "more" you'll suffer.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 13, 2014, 04:35:05 PM
This is not in reference to Scotland particularly but to anywhere there is political instability. You'll get a flight of capital and a substantial decrease in investment. So money and jobs are going to be scared, at least until the political situation stabilizes. And I believe this would be true for Scotland in the event that it breaks away. But knowing this should be made clear to the population as this also tests the convictions of the population: are you willing to suffer economically to some extent in order to get some more independence? The key word is "more" as no one really knows how much "more" you'll gain, how much "more" you'll suffer.

When it comes to a countries independence, I'm certain there are dozens of cases of countries that became independent over others in the same way. But just going on speculation here, I believe other countries did so to escape certain cruelty situations with other countries, and as such those countries more then likely got full public approval, like when Australia gained its independence back in 1986. But unlike Australia, which held good reason to when the British garrison fell in the war time, and it didn't see Britain as a strong allie in its protection. unlike them, scotland has held such ties to the uk, and even its military fleet is of Britain, and really aside from strong national pride, there hasn't been anything in a long time that would give Scotland reason to break off from it.

I can understand national pride, even though I don't practice it myself, but where as Australia and other countries that broke off from british rule did so with full national support if reports are true, with scotland, its not full national support, it is infact half the country that isn't backing it, and doesn't wish to split from it. Even the fact they wanted to keep many facets it held with britian like the currency and military, suggests even nationalists want that Britain handed to scotland, just not being tied to the country itself. 

And the hypothetical situation I have to wonder is, if Scotland does become its own land, is it able to support itself in terms of military? I've seen reports of how soldiers there would sooner be stationed in Britain to get some action.

They do have some resources, and are working on alternative energy
http://www.gla.ac.uk/news/headline_358595_en.html
If they have discovered a way to convert sea water to Hydrogen economically, they've opened the way for an abundant power source that is maybe not inexhaustible, but certainly long term. And they do have North Sea oil.

I hope for your sake it doesn't boil over to become a civil war or British troops sent to stop independence. It's not as if that's a new and novel approach to solving the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

Quote from: Munch on September 13, 2014, 05:29:32 PM



I can understand national pride, even though I don't practice it myself, but where as Australia and other countries that broke off from british rule did so with full national support if reports are true, with scotland, its not full national support, it is infact half the country that isn't backing it, and doesn't wish to split from it.

Agree. It's one thing when you get 90%+ support for independence, against 50% + 1 vote. The latter is a recipe for disaster.

Because this has been brewing for a long time and has caused people to take sides and debate for that long, the level of contention is pretty high. So yes, the potential for recriminations and divisiveness is certainly there. We will see- Thursday and Friday will be newsworthy days.

Quote from: stromboli on September 14, 2014, 11:32:59 AM
Because this has been brewing for a long time and has caused people to take sides and debate for that long, the level of contention is pretty high. So yes, the potential for recriminations and divisiveness is certainly there. We will see- Thursday and Friday will be newsworthy days.

3 Days to go until the vote, and it still seems that Yes have the momentum tho with it being so close nobody is predicting anything at this point.
The last thing i want to see is trouble after the result is in and i really hope there isnt any, but  we are a passionate people and this is the most important vote in our recent history, but in saying that there have been no incidents reported of threats or violence or intimidation at all.

And i hope it stays that way no matter the result for all our sakes.....


(http://i61.tinypic.com/2unymgy.jpg)

Do I ever long for the days when I was overly optimistic, and believed situations like this one could have happy endings.

(http://memeguy.com/photos/images/as-someone-about-to-graduate-seeing-the-bright-and-eager-faces-of-the-incoming-freshman-69577.jpg)

Kind of not to far away is a land where independence has been a bloody bone of contention for some time if memory serves me right. I think they call that land Northern Ireland. I hope you don't have to go down that rabbit hole. There might be snakes in it and Saint Patrick might be a wee bit busy selling fake Irish crap in the US. 

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on September 15, 2014, 08:26:40 PM
Kind of not to far away is a land where independence has been a bloody bone of contention for some time if memory serves me right. I think they call that land Northern Ireland. I hope you don't have to go down that rabbit hole. There might be snakes in it and Saint Patrick might be a wee bit busy selling fake Irish crap in the US. 

In my opinion....
The best thing for northern ireland would be to unite with the south and be a united ireland again but dunno if it will ever happen.

So here we are, a day before the biggest vote in Scotlands history and all the politicians have had their say so now its down to the voters.
Here's a cpla reasons why ill be voting yes..

1,Voting yes means Scotland will never have a Tory government again, deciding our fate and how we run our country.
2,No more Trident, a yes vote means the end of nuclear weapons on the Clyde, the SNP has promised their removel within 5 years of a yes vote.
3, A yes vote will help to defend the NHS  from the effects of privitisation south of the border.
4,Independence means running our own affairs, setting our own tax rates, managing our own economy without westminster interference.
5,Controlling our own armed forces,
6,Making our own decision about europe, the tories want a referendum in the next 2 years to decide on leaving the european union..

I've been looking forward to this day for a long time and hated successive english governments all my adult life, all the way back to thatcher, and her decision to inflict the Poll tax on Scotland a full year before the rest of the uk, that told me all i needed to know about how westminster thought of scotland, not fucking much.
Isnt a union meant to be an equal partnership, its never been that , as far as they are concerned we are second class citizens.
If it wasnt for the billions in oil revenue that flows from the North sea down to westminster they wouldnt give a damn about us, fk them .
Just to be clear on this, its the English government i hate and not the ordinary english people, who are just like us cos iv'e met a few and i know...
Anyhow, rant over.
Saor'' Alba''

Great comments. Make your voice heard.

Quote from: stromboli on September 17, 2014, 06:36:48 PM
Great comments. Make your voice heard.

I did mate, was out in the town today wi my pal scott  just walkin about an the atmosphere was optimistic i think, plenty of yes voters  and gatherings here an there , Flags everywhere an we were putting yes stickers all over the place lol, i was tryin to get a yes t shirt but they were all sold out an i couldnt find one anywhere.
The wee woman in the yes shop in hope st  in the city centre told me that they had sold nearly 2,000 t shirts in the last week, but i never got one, bstrd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1V_jCbTq-c&feature=player_embedded

http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?s=0bcc3c35f390d82cb3ef3d6fd09a0ec3&showtopic=32558&st=15
Quote ''

- The Big Dog and the Wee Dog -

Once upon a time there were two doggy pals... a big English Bulldog and a wee Scottish Terrier.

They went everywhere together, because their collars were connected by a two metre long cord.

Being much bigger than the Scottish Terrier, the Bulldog was free to go anywhere and do anything he wanted, and the wee Scottie just had to tag along.

The big English Bulldog thought it was a great arrangement because he was the boss, and he always had the friendship and help of his wee Scottish pal.

The big Bulldog could not understand why the wee Scottie wanted to cut the cord and go off and do his own thing.

The Bulldog told the Scottie that if he agreed to stay attached, they could replace the two metre cord with a five metre one, to give the wee Scottie a lot more wriggle room.

But the brave wee terrier decided instead to chew through the cord, and break free from the big English Bulldog.

At last, the Scottie was free to do what HE wanted to do !

Bottles, don't you think it a tad naive to think Scotland could never be swayed enough to elect your own version of Tories who might be just as bad if not worse?
Personally I'm a bit neutral if not leary of this from the states because I can see the same thing happening here and I don't want to live in the nation of South Carolina. I'd be beheaded just for wearing my Stop Bitching Start A Revolution t-shirt, having long hair and expressing my opinion of the church..

Naive,  Moi, no no no

APA  seriously man, what u on... :rotflmao:
i think any government elected by the people of Scotland would be nothing like the tories or any other westminster party.
any govt elected in England is elected mainly by the wealthy and prosperous south of england to serve the interests mostly of the wealthy and prosperous south of england.
thats where all the money goes and fk the rest of us, including the north of england.

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 18, 2014, 12:24:53 PM
Naive,  Moi, no no no

APA  seriously man, what u on... :rotflmao:
i think any government elected by the people of Scotland would be nothing like the tories or any other westminster party.
any govt elected in England is elected mainly by the wealthy and prosperous south of england to serve the interests mostly of the wealthy and prosperous south of england.
thats where all the money goes and fk the rest of us, including the north of england.

It's a bit naive to think that Scotland, if independent, would have only parties from the Left vying for power. In just about every country in the West, the fight for power is disputed between the Left and the Right. I doubt that an independent Scotland will escape this reality.

At this stage, I would be honestly surprised if the no vote won.

Quote from: Munch on September 18, 2014, 12:45:36 PM
At this stage, I would be honestly surprised if the no vote won.

I wouldn't. There is a lot of uncertainty in forging into new territory. Second thoughts about an uncertain future could change a lot of votes.

I wonder what my country's flag is going to look like in the morning?

Quote from: Jason78 on September 18, 2014, 01:27:26 PM
I wonder what my country's flag is going to look like in the morning?

Lol. Could wind up being a white sheet. Apparently there are others that have designs on opting out
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/18/scottish-referendum-uk-areas-independent_n_5842894.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Isle of Wight, Wessex, Guernsey- this could get ugly if Scotland separates. England might wind up being a borough in South London.

Quote from: stromboli on September 18, 2014, 12:47:36 PM
I wouldn't. There is a lot of uncertainty in forging into new territory. Second thoughts about an uncertain future could change a lot of votes.

Yeah.  It's looking awfully close (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/latest-scottish-independence-poll-ipsos-mori), with the No option with a very slight lead.

Quote from: stromboli on September 18, 2014, 01:52:42 PM
Lol. Could wind up being a white sheet. Apparently there are others that have designs on opting out
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/18/scottish-referendum-uk-areas-independent_n_5842894.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Isle of Wight, Wessex, Guernsey- this could get ugly if Scotland separates. England might wind up being a borough in South London.

Ugly? That sounds wonderful.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11107463/Voter-turnout-for-Scottish-referendum-could-be-highest-of-any-British-election.html

Voter turnout for Scottish referendum could be highest of any British election

QuoteSenior Labour insiders said they were predicting turnout of 84 per cent. The highest turnout in an election since universal suffrage was granted was 83.9 per cent, in the 1950 general election.
The independence referendum was last night on track to have the highest turnout of any British election since universal suffrage was introduced as queues formed at some polling stations.
Senior Labour insiders said they were predicting turnout of 84 per cent and several councils around the country said polling stations were busy, with some seeing queues both ahead of the polls opening and throughout the morning.
Stirling Council area counting officer Bob Jack told the BBC: "There has been a steady stream of voters and we have been very busy."
In East Renfrewshire, there were queues before the polls opened this morning and a steady stream since, a council spokeswoman said. Some voters had been kissing their ballots, she added.

The highest turnout in an election since universal suffrage was granted was 83.9 per cent, in the 1950 general election.
Some 65 per cent of voters turned out in the 2010 general election, and just 50.4 per cent in the most recent elections to the Scottish Parliament.
Polling stations opened at 7am and people had until 10pm to cast their ballot, with the result expected to be known by breakfast time today (fri).
A total of 4,285,323 people were registered to vote, according to the Electoral Commission, and 16 and 17-year-olds able to take part for the first time.
Alex Salmond was joined by two first-time voters, 18-year-old Natasha McDonald and Lea Pirie, 28, at Ritchie Hall, Strichen, in his Aberdeenshire constituency, this morning.
Mr Salmond gave both women a soft Yes toy as a mascot for their vote and the trio stopped for pictures on their way into the polling station.
Despite long days of campaigning, the First Minister said he managed to get a good rest on the eve of the vote.
"I got a fantastic night's sleep, obviously there's a great deal of anticipation, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, it's a day that everybody will remember," he said.
Alistair Darling, leader of the pro-UK Better Together campaign, was greeted by a mixture of cheers and boos as he arrived at the Church Hill Theatre in Edinburgh to cast his vote.
He said: "I'm feeling very confident. It's been a long, hard two-and-a-half year campaign, passions have been aroused on both sides, and understandably so because we are talking about the biggest single decision that any of us will ever take in our lifetime.
"But I'm increasingly confident that we will win tonight."
A group of well-wishers cheered Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, as he made the short trip to his local polling station.
He shook hands with No campaign supporters, as well as one Yes supporter, who were waiting for him in the mist at North Queensferry Community Centre in Fife.

I would think that the higher turn out would favor the "yes" votes, but we shall see.

Well good luck from the breakaway republic of South Carolina and though I'm an atheist I have to say GOD BLESS THE UNION.. Over here it's gonna spill over sure as shit stinks and if it does I'm going into hiding.

Anything that separates from imperialist England has to be good! Good luck! Solitary

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 18, 2014, 12:33:26 PM
It's a bit naive to think that Scotland, if independent, would have only parties from the Left vying for power. In just about every country in the West, the fight for power is disputed between the Left and the Right. I doubt that an independent Scotland will escape this reality.

Joseph, im not being funny honest but, it's a bit naive of you to think that i dont realise this already.. :eyes:
But if we vote Yes then elections will be held and if it isnt another SNP govt it could be a Scottish tory, labour, or even green govt in power, im not even thinking that far ahead , i just want the result to be Yes...

Quote from: Solitary on September 18, 2014, 04:10:12 PM
Anything that separates from imperialist England has to be good! Good luck! Solitary

Thx Solitary...


And on the evening news tonite they said the turnout could be as high as 93%

Quote from: stromboli on September 18, 2014, 12:47:36 PM
I wouldn't. There is a lot of uncertainty in forging into new territory. Second thoughts about an uncertain future could change a lot of votes.

It's always easier for a poor country/region to separate, since you start with very little to lose. For a developed country like the UK, of which Scotland is part of, the standard of living is comparatively high, there is more to lose, and therefore, harder to separate.

Quote from: stromboli on September 18, 2014, 01:52:42 PM
Lol. Could wind up being a white sheet. Apparently there are others that have designs on opting out
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/18/scottish-referendum-uk-areas-independent_n_5842894.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Isle of Wight, Wessex, Guernsey- this could get ugly if Scotland separates. England might wind up being a borough in South London.

Never mind that, what about Catalonia, Sardagnia, Sicily, and dozens of other regions eagerly watching this unrolling just in case one day they may want to pull this off...

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 18, 2014, 04:18:51 PM
Joseph, im not being funny honest but, it's a bit naive of you to think that i dont realise this already.. :eyes:
But if we vote Yes then elections will be held and if it isnt another SNP govt it could be a Scottish tory, labour, or even green govt in power, im not even thinking that far ahead , i just want the result to be Yes...

Well I was addressing your post in which you stated: "any govt elected in England is elected mainly by the wealthy and prosperous south of england to serve the interests mostly of the wealthy and prosperous south of england thats where all the money goes and fk the rest of us, including the north of england." I'm saying that an independent Scotland would face a similar problem: the wealthy Scots will get together and form a party of the Right, and if history teaches us anything, they will eventually grab power and little folks will get screwed. Now, I understand if you are voting Yes for other reasons. But this one about the wealthy folks, it's not that Scotland will be immunized against that just because it gets its independence. The struggle for power between the Right and the Left will be there, independence or not.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 18, 2014, 04:37:07 PM
Well I was addressing your post in which you stated: "any govt elected in England is elected mainly by the wealthy and prosperous south of england to serve the interests mostly of the wealthy and prosperous south of england thats where all the money goes and fk the rest of us, including the north of england." I'm saying that an independent Scotland would face a similar problem: the wealthy Scots will get together and form a party of the Right, and if history teaches us anything, they will eventually grab power and little folks will get screwed. Now, I understand if you are voting Yes for other reasons. But this one about the wealthy folks, it's not that Scotland will be immunized against that just because it gets its independence. The struggle for power between the Right and the Left will be there, independence or not.

Yes i understand what you are saying  joseph but im saying that i dont think it will be like that up here, Scottish politics just doesnt work in the same way.
Scottish and English cultures are totally different and the people here just wouldnt stand for it if the government only served the interests of a part of the country and not the whole.
But i cant say for certain what our government will be like post independence, and this is only my opinion as a scotsman and there could be some truth in what you say but in my opinion our government will be for the people, all of the people.

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 18, 2014, 04:59:47 PM
...but in my opinion our government will be for the people, all of the people.

The American constitution written in the 18th century was supposed to be of the people, by the people, for the people... and look what the country is at right now!  I guess once independence is achieved you won't have the English as scapegoats for your problems. You will have only yourself to blame. But problems you will have, and plenty of them.

Nobody thinks it will be easy, we all know there will be problems and difficulties along the way but everybody voting Yes is willing to take the chance of a better Scotland for everybody.
For instance did you know.........

SCOTLAND HAS A £17 BILLION CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £13 BILLION FOOD AND DRINK INDUSTRY (IRN BRU IS WORTH £7.3 BILLION)
SCOTLAND HAS £10 BILLION BUSINESS SERVICES INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £9.3 BILLION CHEMICAL SCIENCES INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £9.3 BILLION TOURISM INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £7 BILLION FINANCIAL SERVICES INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £5 BILLION AEROSPACE INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £4.5 BILLION WHISKEY EXPORT INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £3.1 BILLION LIFE SCIENCES INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS £350 MILLION TEXTILE EXPORTS

SCOTLAND WOULD BE THE 8th WEALTHIEST NATION IN THE WORLD IN GBP.(exclude oil we would be 14th the UK would be 18th)
"SCOTLAND HAS 25% OF EUROPE'S WAVE AND WIND ENERGY."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Green Bottle on September 18, 2014, 05:40:20 PM
Nobody thinks it will be easy, we all know there will be problems and difficulties along the way but everybody voting Yes is willing to take the chance of a better Scotland for everybody.
For instance did you know.........

SCOTLAND HAS A £17 BILLION CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £13 BILLION FOOD AND DRINK INDUSTRY (IRN BRU IS WORTH £7.3 BILLION)
SCOTLAND HAS £10 BILLION BUSINESS SERVICES INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £9.3 BILLION CHEMICAL SCIENCES INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £9.3 BILLION TOURISM INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £7 BILLION FINANCIAL SERVICES INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £5 BILLION AEROSPACE INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £4.5 BILLION WHISKEY EXPORT INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS A £3.1 BILLION LIFE SCIENCES INDUSTRY
SCOTLAND HAS £350 MILLION TEXTILE EXPORTS

SCOTLAND WOULD BE THE 8th WEALTHIEST NATION IN THE WORLD IN GBP.(exclude oil we would be 14th the UK would be 18th)
"SCOTLAND HAS 25% OF EUROPE'S WAVE AND WIND ENERGY."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I thought  CALIFORNIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California) was "THE 8th WEALTHIEST NATION IN THE WORLD". LOL.

Anyway, good luck. 

I don't want to be a massive buzz kill Green Bottle, but your putting a lot of faith in your politicians words. There is a reason why I stopped voting for anyone period, because you end up getting tired of the same old song and dance.

Still, maybe I'm wrong, I just stopped putting my faith in politicians a long time ago. 

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 18, 2014, 05:48:54 PM
And I thought  CALIFORNIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California) was "THE 8th WEALTHIEST NATION IN THE WORLD". LOL.

Anyway, good luck. 

Thx Joseph

Quote from: Munch on September 18, 2014, 06:11:32 PM
I don't want to be a massive buzz kill Green Bottle, but your putting a lot of faith in your politicians words. There is a reason why I stopped voting for anyone period, because you end up getting tired of the same old song and dance.

Still, maybe I'm wrong, I just stopped putting my faith in politicians a long time ago. 

Munch, im the same , i dont give a fuck about politicians and dont really trust any of them but the most important thing for me is gaining independence from England.
Im just hoping that it will be a better country after the vote but whatever happens life will go on
and we'll all just have to live with it...
As long as we are free.........

Those industries might be there now, but if the pols fuck things up big time and tank your economy those industries may just flee to places with better terms.. I hear China is always looking for a few greedy fuckers to relocate there..

I would be surprised if the English are really that big of dickholes still to intentionally try and ruin Scotland's economy.

Then again it would continue a tradition the English have spent a long time working on and would justify my distaste for them that much more, so who knows...

I don't like to be the bearer of bad news (http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results)...

But sorry guys, no independence today.

Quote from: Hydra009 on September 19, 2014, 12:18:02 AM
I don't like to be the bearer of bad news (http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results)...

But sorry guys, no independence today.

Holy shit that is a close vote.

I'm really sorry, Bottle.... :(

Rationally; I think things are better off this way.

As someone with an emotional agenda to this; god damn it :\.

I'm so sorry it didn't pass.  Maybe it will come up again in the future, and the public will be better informed and less likely to fall prey to scare tactics.

Now the Scots are going to have to put up with all the b.s. about the royal rug rat.

Maybe they'll ask for a recount?

Already claims of voter fraud
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-probe-glasgow-voter-fraud-allegations-234708786.html#EbG5htH

QuotePolice are investigating allegations of voter fraud in the Scottish referendum in Glasgow, election officials have confirmed.
Colin Edgar from Glasgow City Council told Sky's Kay Burley police were called in after evidence emerged of 10 possible incidents of electoral fraud in the city.
The allegations appear to centre on attempts at personation at some polling stations.
Mr Edgar said: "We've had a number of suggestions over the course of the day that people have turned up at the polling station to vote and they appear to have voted already.
"This is called personation if it turns out to be what it actually is.
"So what's happening tonight is we know which boxes those votes went into and we know the numbers on the votes, so the police have asked us to identify those votes, to take them away, keep them for evidence and hand them to them."
Mr Edgar said presiding officers had alerted officials to incidents of possible electoral fraud.
"Somebody turned up to vote, they gave their name, the presiding officer went to cross off their name on their list of voters to give them a ballot paper and found that their name had already been crossed off and a ballot paper already issued to somebody who apparently had the same name."
He said the ballot papers would be traced and kept secure overnight before being passed to Police Scotland.
Staff at the count will search for them using blue gloves to avoid contaminating the evidence with fingerprints.
The votes would remain part of the count until police prove fraud has taken place, a Glasgow City Council spokeswoman said.
The real voter is given a special vote which is not included in the count until the allegations are proven, she said.
Mr Edgar said fraud could have been committed because there is no requirement for voters to prove their ID at polling stations in UK elections.
A Police Scotland spokesman said the force "takes the safety and security of the independence referendum extremely seriously and is working with partner agencies including local authorities and the chief counting officer to ensure the integrity of the ballot".
"Any crime committed will be investigated appropriately," he added.
Stewart Hosie, the SNP's Treasury spokesman at Westminster, said it was "very sad that people feel the need to engage in any kind of impersonation".

I just got up now and heard the news. Green, I'm so sorry :(. Though I'm a brit I backed it for scots independence. I'm a bit a nervous for my friends and family now.
If there's a chance of fraud then maybe..

I'm sorry to hear this.  When one is emotionally invested in an outcome, it's painful to lose a vote like this.  I still don't understand the pros and cons of independence for Scotland, so I have no opinion to offer, but my heart goes out to those who wanted to be free of England.

My boyfriend was saying, his reason for wanting to go independent was to escape the growing taint of UKIP from the uk. I can understand his fear in this completely, ukip are some of the worst forms of nationalism, almost bordering on Nazism, and a stain on my country I wish would drown. 

That said there is the ongoing threat of muslim growth in the uk, and this sadly gives more power to ukip as a result. Two extremists sides of the same fucked up coin.

Well I can still see the same stuff coming to a state near me soon as southern states try to reincarnate the confederacy as they've been trying now for quite some time and our federal government here in the US doesn't take lightly the notion of breakaway states. The last time they tried it got kind of chippy and several monuments were erected to honour the dead and many movies made to show how brave and gallant the confederates were and how cowardly the union was.. blah blah blah...
I know my view is probably unpopular, but I kind of like keeping unions together and ironing out differences through political means. Believe it or not not ALL politicians are cut from the same weaselling cloth..

Sorry for this loss but it seems that Scotland will have more say on its future if the present government holds to its promise. OTOH, I believe such referendum are not healthy, considering that if every minority in Europe wants independence, Europe will be further fragmented and that's not good.

Good. It was never going to end well.

QuoteI kind of like keeping unions together and ironing out differences through political means.

I agree with this for the United States, but I really don't know for Scotland. It's a country not a state. Solitary

Quote from: Solitary on September 19, 2014, 12:51:11 PMI agree with this for the United States, but I really don't know for Scotland. It's a country not a state.

So is Wales.

Quote from: Solitary on September 18, 2014, 04:10:12 PM
Anything that separates from imperialist England has to be good! Good luck! Solitary

England was never Imperialist.  The British Imperial era ended with the start of WWI.

Learn your history.

Quote from: SGOS on September 19, 2014, 06:34:42 AM
I'm sorry to hear this.  When one is emotionally invested in an outcome, it's painful to lose a vote like this.  I still don't understand the pros and cons of independence for Scotland, so I have no opinion to offer, but my heart goes out to those who wanted to be free of England.

They voted to join.  They can vote to leave.  It's not like we invaded them and took their land. (http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/unioncrownsparliaments/unionofparliaments/)

Quote from: Jason78 on September 19, 2014, 01:26:40 PM
England was never Imperialist.  The British Imperial era ended with the start of WWI.

Learn your history.

Really? And maybe you should read your history if you think England was never Imperialistic. That's beside the point anyway, I was talking about now! Maybe you should watch the news.


http://www.newsweek.com/scottish-socialists-push-yes-vote-smash-british-imperialist-state-271013

Independence Diary: Scottish Socialists Push for Yes Vote to Smash ‘British Imperialist State’

“We want nuclear weapons out of Scotland, out of Britain and abolished across the globe,” one campaigner tells me in Glasgow, also adding that a Yes vote would ensure an end to the “British imperialist state” which has “a long history of pillage and murder across the globe”.

“The Union flag is rightly known as the Butchers Apron,” he adds.

One of the leaflets being handed out gives Scottish voters five reasons to vote Yes to independence, number four on the list being “Stuff David Cameron”. “Voting Yes would mean we never have a Tory government again.”

The other four reasons include ditching nuclear weapons, stopping illegal wars, defending the National Health Service from privatisation and “stopping the bosses”.

The race between pro-independence and pro-union sides is currently too close to call, with last Sunday’s final weekend YouGov poll putting Yes on 46% and No on 47%, with 7% undecided.

Quote from: Jason78 on September 19, 2014, 01:35:40 PM
They voted to join.  They can vote to leave.  It's not like we invaded them and took their land. (http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/unioncrownsparliaments/unionofparliaments/)

its funny I never thought to study on the lineage of how scotland joined england. I honestly never knew it was a willing decision based on financial issues. But who made the first decision, who approached who first, thus garnering the proposal?

Quote from: Jason78 on September 19, 2014, 01:35:40 PM
They voted to join.  They can vote to leave.  It's not like we invaded them and took their land. (http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotlandshistory/unioncrownsparliaments/unionofparliaments/)

Holy hell, that is a very lopsided interpretation of how it went.

A more accurate description is this; England saw Scotland as a potential threat to their colonial holdings (as did, to a lesser extent, Spain/France) and the three did what they could to keep it from being economically feasible for the Scots to go. The Scots tried anyways and ended up blowing about 1/5th of their entire economy on a failed expedition.

England, fearing Scotland would ally with her rival France, approached Scotland and said, "Hello there, I see you are in need of money... sell us your freedom and we will completely reimburse your loses!". It's not like Scotland came crying to England asking for help.

So yes, Scotland did vote to join, but it was only after the other colonial powers (especially England, who [this may come as a shock] has had a long history of murdering and fucking over Scots) did what they could to hamper them and crash their economy, as well as a bad choice of a few politicians to put all their eggs in one basket.

That said, Scotland did benefit from gaining access to British trade routes and other resources the Empire drew in, so it was probably a positive in the long run.

QuoteEngland was never Imperialist.  The British Imperial era ended with the start of WWI.

Woah, and for a second I thought they had better education standards across the pond... jesus christ that was painful to read.

You realize the British Empire was based out of a place called... England... right? England didn't just magically appear after WW1, it had been a country and empire for quite awhile before...

Since there seems to be some serious disagreements over English/Scottish history and a couple questions about the Acts of Unions in particular:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

Quote from: Shiranu on September 19, 2014, 01:56:32 PM
Holy hell, that is a very lopsided interpretation of how it went.

A more accurate description is this; England saw Scotland as a potential threat to their colonial holdings (as did, to a lesser extent, Spain/France) and the three did what they could to keep it from being economically feasible for the Scots to go. The Scots tried anyways and ended up blowing about 1/5th of their entire economy on a failed expedition.

England, fearing Scotland would ally with her rival France, approached Scotland and said, "Hello there, I see you are in need of money... sell us your freedom and we will completely reimburse your loses!". It's not like Scotland came crying to England asking for help.

So yes, Scotland did vote to join, but it was only after the other colonial powers (especially England, who [this may come as a shock] has had a long history of murdering and fucking over Scots) did what they could to hamper them and crash their economy, as well as a bad choice of a few politicians to put all their eggs in one basket.

That said, Scotland did benefit from gaining access to British trade routes and other resources the Empire drew in, so it was probably a positive in the long run.

Woah, and for a second I thought they had better education standards across the pond... jesus christ that was painful to read.

You realize the British Empire was based out of a place called... England... right? England didn't just magically appear after WW1, it had been a country and empire for quite awhile before...

Please Mr Foreigner.  Tell me more about the history of the land I grew up in.

Says mister, "England was never imperialist."

If I was to say the United states never took part in ww2, would you take anything I had to say about American history seriously,even though I am American and you aren't? Doubtful. But that's what you expect from me, to believe you after that ridiculous statement and very one sided view of how Scotland joined?

And yes, in 2014 foreigners have no access to information on any nation than their own... Lol...

From over here, it always appeared that England and Scotland managed to get on rather well together.  I would have expected a succession of Ireland before Scotland.  At any rate, we are talking about two civilized western cultures that have been tied together for quite a while, seemingly without major problems.  The division of those wanting independence from those who wish to remain tied is close to even.  That suggests to me that whatever was to be potentially gained or lost by either outcome of this election might be subtle, with either outcome bound to have advantages and disadvantages.  I doubt that either outcome would be either all good or all bad.  The other possibility is that through fear mongering, propaganda, and intimidation, very little logical thought could be involved in the process to make the best practical decision.

While that may sound disrespectful, the fact is that is the way western democracies operate.  Well, it's true of the United States, and for all the bashing we take from the rest of the world for being stupid (a claim I can't disagree with), I don't think we are all that much stupider than other countries.  Maybe a little bit.  But I believe stupidity is inherent in the human race and is a bigger global problem than we would like to admit.

But with a close vote, I doubt that the outcome would be that black and white in regards to good or bad.  I might be wrong.  It's not like England is a totalitarian state.  You could do much worse, and you can always come back to the ballot box again.  These major internal political struggles are seldom resolved without long acrimonious battles, at least that's the way it has been on this side of the Atlantic.

And of course politicians like to divide the country by exaggerating wedge issues and fanning the flames so they have something to campaign on.  They have little interest in resolving the wedge issues.  They purposely keep them alive, because once resolved, they have nothing left to manipulate voter emotion.  Staying angry is what the leaders want from you.  Don't let them do that to you.

I experience about these matters.  I have spent a lifetime living in a fucked up society that has been taught that having your nose constantly out of joint is a sign of great character and depth.  I'm beginning to suspect that what I have been taught might be wrong.

Quote from: Jason78 on September 20, 2014, 03:24:34 AM
Please Mr Foreigner.  Tell me more about the history of the land I grew up in.

It is well known that the French conquered England. Parlez-vous frenchie?

Can't we stop this arguing please. Its happened, its settled. With only a few groups of irrational cavemen on both sides currently trying to cause trouble in groups in glasgow, with no outcome for doing so, there isn't anything else needed to be said.

(http://data2.whicdn.com/images/106405671/large.jpg)

That's one of the negative side of these referendums (sp?) - those who lose out will have their dreams crushed, and many of them will look for scapegoats.

Quote from: Munch on September 20, 2014, 09:43:50 AM
Can't we stop this arguing please. Its happened, its settled. With only a few groups of irrational cavemen on both sides currently trying to cause trouble in groups in glasgow, with no outcome for doing so, there isn't anything else needed to be said.

(http://data2.whicdn.com/images/106405671/large.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/SbErThh.gif)

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 20, 2014, 10:48:40 AM
That's one of the negative side of these referendums (sp?) - those who lose out will have their dreams crushed, and many of them will look for scapegoats.

Having your dreams crushed is understandably bad. But acting like cavemen in an earthquake doesn't benefit anything. We live in a developed society now.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 20, 2014, 09:38:48 AM
It is well known that the French conquered England. Parlez-vous frenchie?

It worked in Canada, French is an Official language in on overwhelming English population. Want to work for the Federal government? Unless you speak French you have very slim odds. Even if you get in you can't be promoted past a certain point unless you pass French qualifying tests.

Quote from: Icarus on September 20, 2014, 03:18:47 PM
It worked in Canada, French is an Official language in on overwhelming English population. Want to work for the Federal government? Unless you speak French you have very slim odds. Even if you get in you can't be promoted past a certain point unless you pass French qualifying tests.

Well, my post to Jason78 was in reference to the year 1066CE, when the French sucessfully claimed the English throne at the battle of Hasting. What happened in Canada is a different matter. Bilinguilism was adopted at the Federal level so that those of French origin could have access to federal jobs, which wasn't the case before that adoption. 

Quote''
Can't we stop this arguing please. Its happened, its settled. With only a few groups of irrational cavemen on both sides currently trying to cause trouble in groups in glasgow, with no outcome for doing so, there isn't anything else needed to be said.

No Munch, its not a few groups of irrational cavemen on both sides, all the trouble of the last cpla days in Glasgow city centre has been caused by unionists, and they are the one's who won the fucking vote.
So mibbe you shoul;d get ur facts straight before u blame both sides, all the people arrested last nite were unionists and their supporters.

And its easy to say Forget it and move on if your on the outside looking in, not so easy if the decisions made affect your life and the country you live in.
Gordon brown said in an interview after the result that all the Yes and No supporters should throw away their flags and banners and come together for the sake of the country, well thats fucking rich considering a lot of the negativity and scaremongering directed towards the Yes camp came from him, dont think so brown, and i wonder what he would have said if the result had gone the other way.
We may have lost the vote but the need for independence remains and who knows mibbe in the not too distant future we'll get it, because as long as we are tied to england we cannot grow as a country.
And this promise they made of more powers well a lot of people are starting to doubt it already,
and i doubt thet they'l ever give us any real powers after this .
They promised to start the process the day after the result which was yesterday and so far nothing been said except brown on tv today saying it will definitely happen and he'll make sure of it, nobody believes a word he says.
An the tories and labour are already arguing amongst themselves over how much or how little they are prepared to give, westminster promises dont mean much up here because we've heard it all before and this time will be no different.
So for anybody who says , forget it, move on, and get over it i say, no fucking chance, and a lot of Scots feel the same way.

QuoteAnd its easy to say Forget it and move on if your on the outside looking in, not so easy if the decisions made affect your life and the country you live in.

This times a hundred.

Yeah, okay... maybe if this was a sports game, maybe if this was a debate over if spiderman is better than batman... shit that, in the long run, really doesn't matter.

The independence of a nation is kinda big deal, and even moreso when its a debate that goes back hundreds of years and hundreds more of years of violence between the two sides before that.

Listen, I understand your frustration, just the other day you were excited at the prospect of  the yes vote winning, but you can't possibly agree with the actions of these groups in glasgow and around, on either side. This shit doesn't resolve anything, it just makes things worse.
The only thing that can help now is rational nationalism within Scotland itself, actually campaigning for political standards for Scotland to keep itself held, not to break itself apart from each other.

And yes I understand the No voters are slinging shit in the yes voters way, but theres plenty of shit being flung on both sides. 

Munch i know what ur sayin but we've had this shite for weeks, fuckin scare stories all over by the better togethers and now they are telling us we shd just forget it and all be friends again for the sake of the country, well mibbe ur right but no one who voted yes is gonna forget.

Green Bottle, I understand that you are frustrated an angry, but that won't help Scotland. You have to understand that probably a lot of your fellow Scots feel about England in much the same way as Texans feel about America, complete with the wanting to succeed every so often. There's a certain romance to being an independent state, but actually gaining independence means that my fellow Texans (which I identified with until I moved to Vermont) would have to spend some very non-trivial time and cash replacing the federal services its citizens have (for better or worse) come to depend on, rebuilding the treaties that the federal government signed on their behalf that they now are not a party to (like NATO), having to rebuild their military from scratch, and essentially making adversaries of their former country â€" including some of their family and friends. A lot of people are afraid of that change, a change that would destroy life as they knew it forever. That is the fear you have to overcome and replace with the determination to brave and weather the change to come for you to succeed.

Declaring your independence is the EASY part, and Scotland couldn't even muster that. I seriously don't think you guys are ready for real independence. You just don't want it badly enough to overcome the intimidation from the other side, or even apparently to get 15% of you to even care enough about independence to vote about it. No, I'm afraid that even if you succeeded last night to secede, you would have quickly morphed into a puppet state of England, with nominal independence, but no real control over your own politics and destiny. Sorry.

Hakurei has a hard truth to all this I'm afraid. The thing is, scotland despite what some of its ministers claim, saying it would be a wealthy country if independent, was just saying that without further detail, which made me suspicious. The most important thing for a country to be established as independent, would be to have and support its own military, defense, navy, airforce and whatever else it needs to defend itself, and such things do not come cheap. And despite Salmond claiming he could keep englands military and the english pound, he was quite simply blowing smoke rings, he didn't have any power over keeping the military or its war fleet within Scotland, he was simply wishing for it to happen, meaning scotland would have to man its own military, costing millions.

As for the NHS and fear of privatization, that is a fear everyone has, but ultimately was it said what scotlands health service would involve with independence, which again would cost millions to get going from scratch. Resources for the health service are always a problem, but honestly compared to other countries, ours isn't that terrible when you consider others.

The only thing I would say to be weary of are groups like UKIP and their way of approaching things, these assholes should be piled into a van and thrown off a cliff.

TBH, the promises made by Salmond seemed so rosey, but I was in your shoes and heard his speeches, I'd be very weary of his words and question it. Golden promises often never get meet or always have invisible messages written with it. Honestly, if Scotland could pull it off and have its own military and health service guaranteed, then it be different, but without, Scotland would be a vulnerable country for a long time.

I agree that the Scottish should be independent because my experience with them is that they are a hardy, resourceful and intelligent people that can do better on their own than under the auspices of what the ones I knew considered a foreign power. People are capable of rising to the occasion, and that independent and resourceful nature is all the fuel they need to accomplish whatever goals they set out for.

John Muir, one of my favorite people, was born in Scotland. We have national parks because of him. Many of the successful mountain men in this country were Scots. Scots are unique, they have an identity that is recognizable anywhere on earth. they are a unique people who have the right to be as free and independent as they desire.

We believe in the right of a man to choose his own destiny. I believe that a nation, in turn, deserves that right.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 20, 2014, 04:08:51 PM
Well, my post to Jason78 was in reference to the year 1066CE, when the French sucessfully claimed the English throne at the battle of Hasting. What happened in Canada is a different matter. Bilinguilism was adopted at the Federal level so that those of French origin could have access to federal jobs, which wasn't the case before that adoption. 

I was aware, I was making a sarcastic/snide remark about how Canada over-adopted the French language in our Federal system. It turns off a lot of native English speakers who would, in most cases, be better and more qualified for the job than their bilingual counterparts, at least in my field.

We had no problems with trying to beat the culture out of our Aboriginals, yet we went above and beyond to satisfy the French. Politics.

Quote from: stromboli on September 20, 2014, 09:24:43 PM

We believe in the right of a man to choose his own destiny. I believe that a nation, in turn, deserves that right.

But that's just it, it did choose, this conclusion came from its own people, and they always had the choice to make that decision. So whatever the outcome was to be, it came from its people.
It's just unfortunate that the vote was so close as it was to cause such a rift between its own.

Quote from: stromboli on September 20, 2014, 09:24:43 PMJohn Muir, one of my favorite people, was born in Scotland. We have national parks because of him. Many of the successful mountain men in this country were Scots. Scots are unique, they have an identity that is recognizable anywhere on earth.

I thought they were englishmen who liked haggis and kilts until a few years ago.  :P  Seriously, there's like barely any difference.  There are more pronounced cultural differences between NYC and upstate New York.

I really don't get the unique culture identity argument.  California has a unique culture.  Hawaii has a unique culture.  Quebec has a unique culture.  Pick a point on the globe and there's a unique culture.  Doesn't necessarily mean we should redraw the political borders to match.

Quotethey are a unique people who have the right to be as free and independent as they desire.

...which they were/are.

Quote from: stromboli on September 20, 2014, 09:24:43 PM
I agree that the Scottish should be independent because my experience with them is that they are a hardy, resourceful and intelligent people that can do better on their own than under the auspices of what the ones I knew considered a foreign power. People are capable of rising to the occasion, and that independent and resourceful nature is all the fuel they need to accomplish whatever goals they set out for.

John Muir, one of my favorite people, was born in Scotland. We have national parks because of him. Many of the successful mountain men in this country were Scots. Scots are unique, they have an identity that is recognizable anywhere on earth. they are a unique people who have the right to be as free and independent as they desire.

We believe in the right of a man to choose his own destiny. I believe that a nation, in turn, deserves that right.

Woodrow Wilson???

The Wilsonian doctrine was not altogether successful as it split Europe into dozen of states and the Middle East into states like Iraq that are dysfunctional even as of today. After WW2, there has been a concerted effort in Europe to counter the Wilsonian doctrine by forming a common market, then a eurozone - the next step being a federation of states as what there is in the USA.

Personally I see nationalism along religious fervor - dangerous and destructive. And we see it right now in Scotland as it pits friends against friends, divides families even though the voting is over. Scotland won't be the same, but not along what people thought - that society is forever divided, like the US still is after the Civil War.  There will be hate on both sides, and that is the consequence of this referendum. As I suspected from the start, no good would come of it, and this is exactly what's going on right now.

Whatever. It all boils down to he said she said at this point. But decrying the national interest or observing from afar doesn't put us in their shoes, which is what I try to do. I agree with Green Bottle's point based on being there and knowing a few Scots, and they were all very much like him in their attitude.

Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2014, 12:27:48 AM
I was aware, I was making a sarcastic/snide remark about how Canada over-adopted the French language in our Federal system. It turns off a lot of native English speakers who would, in most cases, be better and more qualified for the job than their bilingual counterparts, at least in my field.

We had no problems with trying to beat the culture out of our Aboriginals, yet we went above and beyond to satisfy the French. Politics.

A similar argument is/has been made in the US that certain blacks were hired over whites who supposedly would have been more qualified. The fact is that minorities often take the brunt of being scapegoats and are targeted unjustly, sometimes for centuries. The question that arises here is how much government intervention is needed to right a wrong. It's not an easy question as governments are mirror of humans, with their faults and cracks, and that can easily lead to other injustices or perceptions of injustices.

Quote from: stromboli on September 21, 2014, 10:32:54 AM
Whatever. It all boils down to he said she said at this point. But decrying the national interest or observing from afar doesn't put us in their shoes, which is what I try to do. I agree with Green Bottle's point based on being there and knowing a few Scots, and they were all very much like him in their attitude.

If we ignored the lessons of history, we are bound to repeat them. And nationalism, like religion, has an unenviable historical record. In fact, any ideology that puts itself above human plight will lead to atrocities. This is a lesson that a good part of the inhabitants of this planet has still not digested as we see over and over, atrocities being committed in the name of... fill in the blanks.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 11:23:52 AM
A similar argument is/has been made in the US that certain blacks were hired over whites who supposedly would have been more qualified. The fact is that minorities often take the brunt of being scapegoats and are targeted unjustly, sometimes for centuries. The question that arises here is how much government intervention is needed to right a wrong. It's not an easy question as governments are mirror of humans, with their faults and cracks, and that can easily lead to other injustices or perceptions of injustices.

No..... French qualifying exams are a standard government text. The colour of someones skin is not standard qualifying text. If I can't speak French I'm not allowed to apply for the government job, meaning the pool of applicants is limited to bilingual Canadians before the application process even starts. Make the French requirement optional and the problem is solved (perfectly bilingual government workers already get a $1,500 a year bonus to their pay).   

Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2014, 11:46:40 AM
No..... French qualifying exams are a standard government text.

That's the present situation. However there was a time in the past, circa 1960's, that the federal jobs were held by unilingual English-speaking Canadians, and it was almost impossible for the French-speaking Canadians to get those federal jobs, hence the adoption of bilingualism to right a wrong.

QuoteThe colour of someones skin is not standard qualifying text.

You're making the wrong implication of my post: the parallel is not about the color of your skin, but in the fact that French-speaking Canadians and Blacks are both MINORITIES in their respective countries.

QuoteIf  I can't speak French I'm not allowed to apply for the government job, meaning the pool of applicants is limited to bilingual Canadians before the application process even starts.

If you know this info then there's nothing wrong with you taking French classes so that you can qualify for those jobs.

QuoteMake the French requirement optional and the problem is solved (perfectly bilingual government workers already get a $1,500 a year bonus to their pay).   

Perhaps bilingualism has done its job and no longer brings the benefits that it sought initially to bring about, and that would require some further studies. Of course, there would be some political fallout for any politician to undergo such action as it undoubtedly would anger members of the minorities who would see this political action as a threat to them.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 12:02:33 PM
That's the present situation. However there was a time in the past, circa 1960's, that the federal jobs were held by unilingual English-speaking Canadians, and it was almost impossible for the French-speaking Canadians to get those federal jobs, hence the adoption of bilingualism to right a wrong.

Hence the over-adoption of bilingualism that I was talking about.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 12:02:33 PM
You're making the wrong implication of my post: the parallel is not about the color of your skin, but in the fact that French-speaking Canadians and Blacks are both MINORITIES in their respective countries.

So are Aboriginals, and again, that didn't stop us from trying to beat it out of them. We're even ignoring the massive fallout that persists today.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 12:02:33 PM
If you know this info then there's nothing wrong with you taking French classes so that you can qualify for those jobs.

I was top of my class in grade 3, my parents switched me into late french immersion in grade 4 and by grade 5 they were going to have me fail a grade because I had no aptitude for learning other languages. This may come as news to you but some people have huge problems with learning certain things. It's not a created mental block to other languages but something that has persisted my entire life.
 

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 12:02:33 PM
Perhaps bilingualism has done its job and no longer brings the benefits that it sought initially to bring about, and that would require some further studies. Of course, there would be some political fallout for any politician to undergo such action as it undoubtedly would anger members of the minorities who would see this political action as a threat to them.

This didn't stop the Quebec separatist movement. English speakers who speak no French but live in Quebec are the minority in Quebec, making them unhappy didn't phase any of the pro-separatist politicians. 

Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2014, 12:46:58 PM
Hence the over-adoption of bilingualism that I was talking about.

Perhaps, but are their studies that indicate this situation or is it just your personal experience that leads you to this conclusion?

QuoteSo are Aboriginals, and again, that didn't stop us from trying to beat it out of them. We're even ignoring the massive fallout that persists today.

Indeed, Aboriginals form minorities, and as such, were/are vulnerable to the whims of the majority. Past injustices certainly do not justify the paralysis of the majority, and it's up to the government to wake up and implement policies that can rectify this ugly situation.

QuoteI was top of my class in grade 3, my parents switched me into late french immersion in grade 4 and by grade 5 they were going to have me fail a grade because I had no aptitude for learning other languages. This may come as news to you but some people have huge problems with learning certain things. It's not a created mental block to other languages but something that has persisted my entire life.
 

It's unfortunate, but can you not find jobs in other sectors than the federal government? It's a good thing you don't live in Switzerland where government workers are required to know German, French, Italian, along with English - though the latter is not required but strongly recommended.

QuoteThis didn't stop the Quebec separatist movement. English speakers who speak no French but live in Quebec are the minority in Quebec, making them unhappy didn't phase any of the pro-separatist politicians. 

In many ways, it's a similar situation as in Scotland: the people are divided on the question, do you seek independence or stay in the union. As I said in earlier posts, I regard nationalism as dangerous and destructive. I tend to lean towards unity, with the understanding that the majority must make major concessions to the minorities so that they feel welcomed and secured.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 01:14:42 PM
Perhaps, but are their studies that indicate this situation or is it just your personal experience that leads you to this conclusion?

The government advertises it on their website.
http://jobs-emplois.gc.ca/centres/inside-ausein/ol-lo-eng.htm
They don't have a direct breakdown by level within the government, they usually advertise the requirements on the specific job posting.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 01:14:42 PM
It's unfortunate, but can you not find jobs in other sectors than the federal government? It's a good thing you don't live in Switzerland where government workers are required to know German, French, Italian, along with English - though the latter is not required but strongly recommended.

That's the thing, I have a job in Academia at the moment and could easily find a job in the private sector if I wanted to be chained down to projects that aren't very interesting. In later life I would like to work in a less demanding sector, like the Federal government, but all the jobs I've seen posted have French requirements. This is what I was talking about when I said they're missing out by restricting applicants. Yes, I'm very glad I don't live in Switzerland.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 01:14:42 PM
In many ways, it's a similar situation as in Scotland: the people are divided on the question, do you seek independence or stay in the union. As I said in earlier posts, I regard nationalism as dangerous and destructive. I tend to lean towards unity, with the understanding that the majority must make major concessions to the minorities so that they feel welcomed and secured.

Pretty much, except the Scots and Brits have no boundaries for working in the Government as they speak the same language (some of the accents might make it a little difficult though).

Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2014, 01:33:14 PM
The government advertises it on their website.
http://jobs-emplois.gc.ca/centres/inside-ausein/ol-lo-eng.htm
They don't have a direct breakdown by level within the government, they usually advertise the requirements on the specific job posting.That's the thing, I have a job in Academia at the moment and could easily find a job in the private sector if I wanted to be chained down to projects that aren't very interesting. In later life I would like to work in a less demanding sector, like the Federal government, but all the jobs I've seen posted have French requirements. This is what I was talking about when I said they're missing out by restricting applicants. Yes, I'm very glad I don't live in Switzerland.
Pretty much, except the Scots and Brits have no boundaries for working in the Government as they speak the same language (some of the accents might make it a little difficult though).

I speak quite fluently English, French, Italian and a tinge of Spanish. In my early school days I learned for 4 years Latin - though I remember little of it. I cannot stress enough the value of learning several languages. I hope you find a job that will satisfy you, as there are no replacement that can bring you more satisfaction than doing what motivates you the most.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 02:18:04 PM
I speak quite fluently English, French, Italian and a tinge of Spanish. In my early school days I learned for 4 years Latin - though I remember little of it. I cannot stress enough the value of learning several languages. I hope you find a job that will satisfy you, as there are no replacement that can bring you more satisfaction than doing what motivates you the most.

I learned the languages of Biology, Biochemistry, Organic Chemistry and Bioinformatics. Other languages aren't as interesting or useful. I guess French would be useful but I would learn it then never use it except on the qualifying test.

Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2014, 02:24:18 PM
I learned the languages of Biology, Biochemistry, Organic Chemistry and Bioinformatics. Other languages aren't as interesting or useful. I guess French would be useful but I would learn it then never use it except on the qualifying test.

With those credentials, what about a job in academia, or is that not suitable to you?

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 02:53:31 PM
With those credentials, what about a job in academia, or is that not suitable to you?

Look 2 of my posts back, in the 2nd paragraph.

Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2014, 03:03:49 PM
Look 2 of my posts back, in the 2nd paragraph.

Yes, my apologies.

So your complain is based on your wish to have a less demanding job by taking a post with the federal government? Hmmmm... I'm sure many only wish to be so unfortunate as you are, LOL.

I'm still trying to learn English, besides Spanish and Italian. I knew French when younger good enough to get by, but never could pronounce things correctly, and Dutch is really hard, and I sound like a farmer. When I was in Ireland their language is English, but to get a government job you have to know Gaelic, and in Holland you have to know Dutch to be accepted. They have more unwritten rules you have to follow than anywhere I've been. Women smoking in public is frond upon and considered cheap, and so is prostitution, even though it is legal, but not on the streets. Accept for the weather I like it there, same with Ireland, that was like going home a hundred years later.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 03:14:36 PM
Yes, my apologies.

So your complain is based on your wish to have a less demanding job by taking a post with the federal government? Hmmmm... I'm sure many only wish to be so unfortunate as you are, LOL.

Nice strawman, here's what I said "In later life I would like to work in a less demanding sector" I'm sure you understand the desire to not be in a high-stress atmosphere for more than 25 years or so. If you can work 60-70 hours a week trying to meet deadlines for more than 25 years, good on you.

Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2014, 03:19:11 PM
Nice strawman, here's what I said "In later life I would like to work in a less demanding sector" I'm sure you understand the desire to not be in a high-stress atmosphere for more than 25 years or so. If you can work 60-70 hours a week trying to meet deadlines for more than 25 years, good on you.

I understand that desire as I have myself retired from academia and enjoy the free time now available to me, but it's hardly a justification on your part to rail against the Canadian government on its bilingual policy for federal jobs.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 03:35:11 PM
I understand that desire as I have myself retired from academia and enjoy the free time now available to me, but it's hardly a justification on your part to rail against the Canadian government on its bilingual policy for federal jobs.

Why not? This is an open discussion forum, I'm not trying to start a riot or even get any policy to change because I know it would be pointless. I can openly share my opinion of the system and point out the flaws, as most people on this forum do all the time. I knew you could relate because I've looked at your blog and know bit about your background in physics. You understand that stress and need to decompress.

Quote from: Icarus on September 21, 2014, 03:47:06 PM
Why not? This is an open discussion forum, I'm not trying to start a riot or even get any policy to change because I know it would be pointless. I can openly share my opinion of the system and point out the flaws, as most people on this forum do all the time. I knew you could relate because I've looked at your blog and know bit about your background in physics. You understand that stress and need to decompress.

Definitely it's an open discussion forum.  And definitely we're not going to solve the world problems on this forum. But I've enjoyed a few exchanges with you.
:wink2:

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 01:14:42 PM
It's a good thing you don't live in Switzerland where government workers are required to know German, French, Italian, along with English - though the latter is not required but strongly recommended.

No, they aren't. If you live in Switzerland, you've the right to get any document you may need in any of the Swiss official languages (German, French, Italian, Reto-romansch), even if it's not the language officially spoken in the "Canton" (state) where you live. As well, you've the right to produce any document you may be requested to in any of the above languages. But I dare you to go to any governmental office here in Switzerland and find many workers who speak all those languages.

Quote from: DunkleSeele on September 21, 2014, 04:12:40 PM
No, they aren't. If you live in Switzerland, you've the right to get any document you may need in any of the Swiss official languages (German, French, Italian, Reto-romansch), even if it's not the language officially spoken in the "Canton" (state) where you live. As well, you've the right to produce any document you may be requested to in any of the above languages. But I dare you to go to any governmental office here in Switzerland and find many workers who speak all those languages.

Thanks for the correction. In my short stay in that country, I saw everywhere there was a government office, or I had to enter into a conversation with government workers, they knew those languages - why, because I asked them as I was quite surprised by their fluency in several languages, and by the posters which were in those four languages.  Perhaps, these were exceptional workers, the ones I happened to have met.

Quote from: josephpalazzo on September 21, 2014, 05:33:26 PM
Thanks for the correction. In my short stay in that country, I saw everywhere there was a government office, or I had to enter into a conversation with government workers, they knew those languages - why, because I asked them as I was quite surprised by their fluency in several languages, and by the posters which were in those four languages.  Perhaps, these were exceptional workers, the ones I happened to have met.

If you want to be a government worker with direct contact to the public, being multilingual is of course an advantage. Still, it is not a requirement to speak three or four languages. It also depends on where you are. In big cities like Zürich, Bern or Geneva you'll find more multilingual officials than in small places in the Swiss Alps. Take also into account that most Swiss study at least two languages in addition to their own (whether they speak them is another matter, though).