As we are all aware there is a negative correlation between intelligence and belief in woo, but every once in a while you run into someone for whom that correlation doesn't seem to apply. My sister-in-law, for instance. She's college educated, very intelligent and very informed, yet she has deeply ingrained beliefs in woo. And I'm not just talking about her church attendance. She regularly visits a psychic, and not just for entertainment purposes. She will discuss with my wife sometimes the things her psychic told her, trying to work out what, exactly, it means. Because of course a psychic can't simply say, "You're going to find $5 on the street at 6:27 on Monday". Recently the mother-in-law went into the hospital and in one of the first conversations with my wife she relayed that her daughter had had a dream that she was going to die a couple of nights before. Like all believers in woo, when it turned out to be unrelated to reality (she's doing fine now, but it was touch and go for a bit), it's simply never thought about again.
I can't help but seriously wonder, how does this happen? How does someone otherwise so intelligent give any credence whatsoever to this type of trash? The things she says are the types of things stupid people say. The Snookies of the world would wonder if their daughter's dream meant their mother was going to die, not the college educated, well informed people who are informed enough about the goings on of the world that they've spent time protesting (don't remember what, but it was a noble cause). I realize anyone can fall into a bit of woo, regardless of intelligence, but this isn't "a bit". This is belief in psychics, dream predictions, homeopathic remedies, crystal healing...the entire fertilizer cart of bullshit.
Have any of you known anyone like this? Have any idea why an intelligent person would allow themselves to be fooled like this? I want to understand the psychology around this. Usually I'm pretty good at getting a grasp of the psychology, but on this one I'm drawing a total blank.
We never employ our intelligence more deviously than when trying to justify not changing our beliefs.
Well considering the generalizations these "psychics" often speak/write towards a lot of their predictions can generally come what some people would consider "true" regardless of how vaguely or coincidentally true it was. I know of educated people who still hold an avid belief in woo simply due to the fact that they feel it's nearly always correct... hell even I've looked at a psychic reading every now and again and went "you know what that's actually pretty well describes what happened". However going back to your original point it seems to just be a case in which even though she is an educated individual she wants to believe in these things.. it seems to be tapping into the base human want to know the future or have some grasp upon events that could happen and although I'm with you in saying that it's complete nonsense some people just refuse to accept that there's no certain way of telling whats going to happen next and choose to believe that they can predict the future through their dreams.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"We never employ our intelligence more deviously than when trying to justify not changing our beliefs.
Damn skippy!
High quality cognitive dissonance takes mental horse power.
I didn't get from the op if she was actually religious or not. But of course the babble is very firmly against soothsaying and fortune telling. That could be a point. I can look it up for you but I gotta pee right now....sorry
I know of a few"intelligent woosters" in astrology in particular who are highly eloquent in what they do. They direct their interest in one particular area such as in the entertainment industry in Hollywood but show very little interest in science. One is extremely well read up on the biographies of Hollywood actors and her bookcase is full of them, a few crime novels as well as all her collection of astrology books. She also describes herself as being "psyhic".
Compartmentalization (//http://freethought.mbdojo.com/compartmentalization.html)
Here is one we are very familiar with in Australia and almost certain to become Australia's next Prime Minister. It is Tony Abbott who is a Rhodes Scholar (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholar) He initially wanted to get into the priesthood and he said "The priesthood gives someone the awesome power to consecrate bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ" Is that not woo or what?
Quote from: "St Giordano Bruno"Here is one we are very familiar with in Australia and almost certain to become Australia's next Prime Minister. It is Tony Abbott who is a Rhodes Scholar (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Scholar) He initially wanted to get into the priesthood and he said "The priesthood gives someone the power to consecrate bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ" Is that not woo or what?
I think it's funny that most Catholilcs don't think of themselves practicing cannibalism, but if their doctrine has it right, that is
exactly what they are doing.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"I know pretty secular people who are mad about tarot reading, palm readings, chinese astrology -I got my depresssion explained to me by my chinese zodiac sign by one of them :lol:- other astrologies, i-chi, fengshui, insert similar bullshit here...this and that. They are all, but all are university graduates. Also my older aunt and her daughters. Uggh. They believe someone who knows what they are doing can 'curse you with a spell'. :cry: They are all highly educated, wealthy people who traveled the world, pursued high standing lives.
I actually have an idea about this. This people are unconsciously or conciously 'learning' how stupid religions are. But as they are believers in core and they are addicted to believe, they are also addicted to something unexplained and 'Sipiritual' in their lives which based on a delusion, something what we call woo woo. So they start to incline to other bullshit, cannot alltogether get rid of religion either and mix all of them taking their 'benign', 'promising' parts. Create their own system of woo in a way.
Pay attention, you'll see this happens in or after some sort of a rough patch in their lives, becomes more deliberate around those kind of experiences. This could even be a way to 'deal' with things in life. That's my observation anyway.
Well, as most of you know I've struggled with Woo for a lifetime. But the single largest black hole of a question was my miraculous recovery after neck surgery. Convinced I was some mixture of science and magic I couldn't figure out how I could be anything but special somehow. People just don't recover as I did. Then I wanted to question that and it led me to wonder about the power of the human mind when it comes to odd healing. I figure in time science will make more extensive discoveries of what the human mind is capable of. Till that comes along I just have to put theories and questions on the back burner. I'm certain I don't believe in the Christian god but I remain plagued by questions.
I think what I find most troubling is that I don't see myself with some incredible brain power where I can help heal myself in such a way? So while I wonder what the brain is capable of - I certainly question my own.
As my surgeon put it "If I could bottle and give out as prescription your
will to be well I could retire!"
Compartmentalization as noted earlier in this thread is one factor, but belief bias and belief perseverance are also involved.
Consider this argument :
Premise 1 : Some communists are golfers
Premise 2 : All golfers are capitalists
Conclusion: Some communists are capitalists.
People have trouble seeing the validity of the conclusion, that it logically follows from the premises. Contrast these with examples where the conclusions are in line with our prior beliefs such as:
Premise 1: Some communists are golfers
Premise 2 : All golfers are Marxists
Conclusion: Some communists are Marxists
In experiments nearly all recognize the validity of that conclusion based on its premises. It is consistent with beliefs.
One more (courtesy of David Meyers et al)
Premise 1: Democrats support free speech
Premise 2: Dictators are not democrats
Conclusion: Dictators do not support free speech.
Many here will see that this conclusion does not follow but in experiments subjects often miss this.
We are better at seeing poor logic when it disagrees with our beliefs.
The second point is belief perseverance. This means that it takes a greater case-more compelling evidence-to dislodge a belief than it does to create one. This is likely a factor as well.
I know that when I was deconverting, in my teens, I spent a few years on the woo-train ... mainly belief in mental powers. Somewhere along the line I read Broca's Brain, from Sagan, followed shortly by Flim-flam!, from James Randi. Those two books had a major influence on my thinking about how we know what we know. I was perhaps eighteen or nineteen. Anyway, I got to see my woo-bound friends treat me exactly the same way for questioning their beliefs as the Southern Baptists had for questioning their dogma. At that point, I decided to stop looking for magical answers and spend my time instead training myself to think.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Whatever, whenever something looks impossible, miraculous, very highly unlikely to happen, science will come and explain how it happened in a very non-mgaical way, .
Totally agree with that.
Using the word
miracle is always dicey. Let's just say I *should* have been in the hospital for several days like all the other patients who've had this surgery(according to Dr, nurses and exit nurse) . I walked out less than a day later, went home and other than keeping the neck brace on I was fine. Just kinda weird. No I don't really think I'm special. lol
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Whatever, whenever something looks impossible, miraculous, very highly unlikely to happen, science will come and explain how it happened in a very non-mgaical way, .
Totally agree with that.
Using the word miracle is always dicey. Let's just say I *should* have been in the hospital for several days like all the other patients who've had this surgery(according to Dr, nurses and exit nurse) . I walked out less than a day later, went home and other than keeping the neck brace on I was fine. Just kinda weird. No I don't really think I'm special. lol
Yes you can be Bri, why not? I am using special here as high biological capacity and will.
Who was that one of the English actors broke his spine falling back 3 floors and walked out of hospital a week later after surgery which as a result he was declared as cannot walk? That is something special in my opinion.
But then I cannot gather a will to stop smoking so I should shut up, :lol: :oops:
At the 7 day follow up appt with my surgeon we had an interesting talk (well he talked I listened) about the *power* (which sounds bad - sorry) - maybe abilities sounds better - of the human brain. He's very interested to pursue the matter and as I understand investigates it still.
Let's just say it was weird. And not my first weird experience when in hospital or surgery.
weird
Some things are just.......weird. Doesn't make them god nor magic....but still weird.
Maybe we should have a thread going on the unexplained weird stuff? Or would that invite theists to sell us jesus?
so........ yeah. I hope in my life that there's more information discovered about people who heal with zeal.
:shock:
All I can say is I'm a magic train engineer..WOO WOOO! :P
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"All I can say is I'm a magic train engineer..WOO WOOO! :P
I'm not sure I get it. Are you magic or is it the train?
double post
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Mister Agenda"We never employ our intelligence more deviously than when trying to justify not changing our beliefs.
So true. Along with human intelligence comes the capacity to invent, rationalize, and selectively remember (or ignore). These are both gifts and a curses. Somewhat related to these capacities is a power to reason like no other animal. This is not news. Our power of reason is shouted from scientific journals and from philosophers, as well as from the pulpits of churches. Yes we have that power, but apparently it is not our default setting. Those other less glamorous capacities we seem to forget. They are not as charming to acknowledge. So we go about our day assuming all we do is reason, and believing we do it well, no matter how stupid we act.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I know that when I was deconverting, in my teens, I spent a few years on the woo-train ... mainly belief in mental powers.
Yeah, I did that too. It helps if you're doing drugs. It's kind of embarrasing now, but you know, we were young then. We had not been around long enough to really sort things out. You're trying to make sense of the world, and are influenced by the behavior of those around us, many of whom have much stronger attractions to wild thinking. You get tempted into trying to give them credit, often times for things they don't deserve.
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I know that when I was deconverting, in my teens, I spent a few years on the woo-train ... mainly belief in mental powers.
Yeah, I did that too. It helps if you're doing drugs. It's kind of embarrasing now, but you know, we were young then. We had not been around long enough to really sort things out. You're trying to make sense of the world, and are influenced by the behavior of those around us, many of whom have much stronger attractions to wild thinking. You get tempted into trying to give them credit, often times for things they don't deserve.
Fuck, the woo train is nothing. I spoke in tongues. Now THAT is embarrassing, especially when I see video of it now and how damned stupid and obvious it looks.
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I know that when I was deconverting, in my teens, I spent a few years on the woo-train ... mainly belief in mental powers.
Yeah, I did that too. It helps if you're doing drugs. It's kind of embarrasing now, but you know, we were young then. We had not been around long enough to really sort things out. You're trying to make sense of the world, and are influenced by the behavior of those around us, many of whom have much stronger attractions to wild thinking. You get tempted into trying to give them credit, often times for things they don't deserve.
So true, including the, er, "experimentation" with drugs. Took me a few years to find my moorings.
Quote from: "widdershins"Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I know that when I was deconverting, in my teens, I spent a few years on the woo-train ... mainly belief in mental powers.
Yeah, I did that too. It helps if you're doing drugs. It's kind of embarrasing now, but you know, we were young then. We had not been around long enough to really sort things out. You're trying to make sense of the world, and are influenced by the behavior of those around us, many of whom have much stronger attractions to wild thinking. You get tempted into trying to give them credit, often times for things they don't deserve.
Fuck, the woo train is nothing. I spoke in tongues. Now THAT is embarrassing, especially when I see video of it now and how damned stupid and obvious it looks.
LOL You should post that video here.
Back to the OP, there's a difference in the intelligence needed to parrot back what you learned well enough to "earn" a degree and the intelligence needed to think rationally.
Quote from: "SGOS"LOL You should post that video here.
Not a video of me, silly. Videos on the Internet of people doing it. Every day I thank God that there are no videos of me doing it. Or Thor. Or Satan. Whoever is handy, really. They all have pretty busy schedules, though I would avoid Zeus. He's a little needy these days. If you talk to him he'll stalk you for, like, a month. He does pay on dates, though.
Woo can be harmless nonsense, but it can also be terribly dangerous and destructive (homeopathy, for example).
There's probably some woo that I unconsciously accept as given mainly because I don't know enough about it, but when it comes to medical science, I can't help but think you're a prat if you believe in woo in that context. Looking up evidence for medical science practices/ treatment isn't difficult (ask your GP/doctor), so I can only assume that people who don't and rather believe in nonsense are just lazy and apathetic, else being wilfully ignorant (or a combination).
Quote from: "Fidel_Castronaut"but when it comes to medical science, I can't help but think you're a prat if you believe in woo in that context. Looking up evidence for medical science practices/ treatment isn't difficult (ask your GP/doctor), so I can only assume that people who don't and rather believe in nonsense are just lazy and apathetic, else being wilfully ignorant (or a combination).
Many of them "know" that they aren't ignorant, so they see no need to look it up. (As in taking an antibiotic every time you get a cold. Antibiotics cure illness - everyone knows that.)
Quote from: "Colanth"Many of them "know" that they aren't ignorant, so they see no need to look it up. (As in taking an antibiotic every time you get a cold. Antibiotics cure illness - everyone knows that.)
Or as a woman I worked with said (imagine a parental tone when you tell your child he can't put his hand on a hot stove), "If you don't go to the doctor to get antibiotics, you'll never get rid of your cold."
Quote from: "widdershins"As we are all aware there is a negative correlation between intelligence and belief in woo
Um - no. There isn't.
There is, however, a negative correlation between
education and belief in woo. Specifically, scientific education tends to negate belief in woo.
But intelligence? Nope. Tons of woo-addicts are engineers, mathematicians, psychologists, and just about any other profession you care to name that does not require a rigorous background in the hard sciences (and yes, I'm excluding mathematics from that category).
If belief in woo were correlated with stupidity, we would find roughly the same percentage of woo-addicts across all nations. But we don't. We don't even find it among Western industrialized nations. Rational thought is not necessarily a function of intelligence. Unfortunately.
Quote from: "widdershins"Quote from: "SGOS"LOL You should post that video here.
Not a video of me, silly. Videos on the Internet of people doing it. Every day I thank God that there are no videos of me doing it. Or Thor. Or Satan. Whoever is handy, really. They all have pretty busy schedules, though I would avoid Zeus. He's a little needy these days. If you talk to him he'll stalk you for, like, a month. He does pay on dates, though.
Yes, but does he put out? :-k
IT'S A MIRACLE! ....that the whole state of Florida didn't get sucked down in that guys bedroom floor! :lol:
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"IT'S A MIRACLE! ....that the whole state of Florida didn't get sucked down in that guys bedroom floor! :lol:
Why? Was he gay? Because if he was gay then it is a miracle because it was probably God's punishment on the gays. And we all know that zany God can't punish a single person without taking a few innocents with him.
Just to throw one more factor in, it seems probability estimates contribute to certain conclusions. Often estimates of likely occurence are made when the actual probability is higher and counterintuitive. That is, something happens that seems to defy odds and unjustified conclusions follow. One example is the birthday paradox -which is a good way to win a wager at a large party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem)
Quote from: "PJS"Just to throw one more factor in, it seems probability estimates contribute to certain conclusions. Often estimates of likely occurence are made when the actual probability is lower and counterintuitive. That is, something happens that seems to defy odds and unjustified conclusions follow. One example is the birthday paradox -which is a good way to win a wager at a large party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem)
That is some fascinating shit. I want to divorce my wife, leave my children and run away to have a wild, twisted affair with mathematics because of this.
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Colanth"Many of them "know" that they aren't ignorant, so they see no need to look it up. (As in taking an antibiotic every time you get a cold. Antibiotics cure illness - everyone knows that.)
Or as a woman I worked with said (imagine a parental tone when you tell your child he can't put his hand on a hot stove), "If you don't go to the doctor to get antibiotics, you'll never get rid of your cold."
There's a brand of antibacterial wipes (I won't mention the name, but it's the largest retailer in the world) that says, right on the container, that it kills the flu virus. An antibacterial? Really? The flu virus is a bacterium?
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Colanth"Many of them "know" that they aren't ignorant, so they see no need to look it up. (As in taking an antibiotic every time you get a cold. Antibiotics cure illness - everyone knows that.)
Or as a woman I worked with said (imagine a parental tone when you tell your child he can't put his hand on a hot stove), "If you don't go to the doctor to get antibiotics, you'll never get rid of your cold."
There's a brand of antibacterial wipes (I won't mention the name, but it's the largest retailer in the world) that says, right on the container, that it kills the flu virus. An antibacterial? Really? The flu virus is a bacterium?
Marketing baby - sells shit!! And in case no one's watching the Ps and Qs of what's on what label........... or even IF they do.......some money cross the palm of the right guy in the right spot of the Capitol building and Oh Sure - Go ahead. Happens every day.
I laugh at antibacterial wipes that claim to kill Flu. And I laugh when people say they need antibiotic for cold virus. (key word VIRUS in that sentence). *sigh* Sure sometimes viral can change to bacterial........but you need a Dr to determine that pretty much. I'm as bad as the next guy for self-diagnosing though.......so I cant point fingers too hard. LOL
As for marketing what-nots - if it all boils down to people wiping surfaces more - and sort of cleaning their hands in the process - that's probably helping fight some kind of germ to some degree. LOL
Quote from: "widdershins"Quote from: "PJS"Just to throw one more factor in, it seems probability estimates contribute to certain conclusions. Often estimates of likely occurence are made when the actual probability is lower and counterintuitive. That is, something happens that seems to defy odds and unjustified conclusions follow. One example is the birthday paradox -which is a good way to win a wager at a large party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem)
That is some fascinating shit. I want to divorce my wife, leave my children and run away to have a wild, twisted affair with mathematics because of this.
:shock:
Quote from: "stromboli"Quote from: "widdershins"Quote from: "PJS"Just to throw one more factor in, it seems probability estimates contribute to certain conclusions. Often estimates of likely occurence are made when the actual probability is lower and counterintuitive. That is, something happens that seems to defy odds and unjustified conclusions follow. One example is the birthday paradox -which is a good way to win a wager at a large party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem)
That is some fascinating shit. I want to divorce my wife, leave my children and run away to have a wild, twisted affair with mathematics because of this.
:shock:
I really like math :oops:
Quote from: "Davka"Quote from: "widdershins"As we are all aware there is a negative correlation between intelligence and belief in woo
Um - no. There isn't.
Perhaps my information is wrong, but I did get this from articles.
Atheists are more intelligent than religious people (//http://freethinker.co.uk/features/atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-religious-people/)
Liberals and Atheists Smarter? Intelligent People Have Values Novel in Human Evolutionary History, Study Finds (//http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100224132655.htm)
A provocative new study claims that
more intelligent persons are more likely to become political liberals and atheists. (//http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/DyeHard/human-values-determined-intelligence-study-claims/story?id=9992160)