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Phoenix New Times
QuoteLatter-Gay Saints: The Mormon Church Now Welcomes Homosexuals -- Sort Of by Dulce Paloma Baltazar Pedraza
On a sunny Saturday morning in April, more than two dozen men, women, and children march up Central Avenue, on the final stretch of the Pride parade. The pro-gay march has taken place in Phoenix every year since 1981, but it's the first time this particular group has joined the thousands of people celebrating. A Lady Gaga hit blasts from the speakers of a nearby multicolored VW bus, but this is not really a Lady Gaga kind of group. These people stand out mostly because of their outfits: The men wear slacks, shirts, and ties, and the women wear dresses.
In fact, they look as if they are on their way to church, and that would not be a bad guess. The crowd along the parade route gasps then hollers, reading the group's banner: "Mormons Building Bridges." Other signs declare that "God loves all His children" and "Mormons heart LGBT."
The members, friends and family of ALL Arizona -- a local support group for gay members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- reach the end of the parade route at Steele Indian School Park. It's there that they encounter another religious group.
Holding banners that condemn homosexuality and surrounded by a fence that separates them from festival-goers, the protesters hurl insults. ALL Arizona members Jon Abhau and his mother, Meg, are the first to notice the picketers. They approach them, and Jon, a tall, blond 14-year-old in a rainbow-colored bow tie, tries to hand one of the protesters a sign that reads "'Love one another' -- Jesus." The protester won't even look at the boy. The sign lands on the ground next to the protester's shoes.
As his mother looks on proudly, Jon Abhau simply smiles and walks away.
Being an ex-Mormon and supporter of gay rights, I am of two minds on the issue. First of all the church, however they may claim to, is never going to be anything but homophobic at its core. Much of the same issues that circle around Catholicism are built into Mormonism because there are similarities in the structure of the religion. Considering that they won't do something so simple as allow women to attend Priesthood meetings- which, trust me, are an exercise in lameness- shows how hard and fast they are in their beliefs. Everything the LDS church does on the surface is a PR move, period.
I would rather that LGBT members simply leave the church and their families as well. One article written on the Mormon Curtain website by a former Mormon summed it up by saying "what church do they think they belong to?" There is no give and take, only false PR. If the gay community in Mormonism simply walked out, it would make a stronger statement than any other. Their membership claims are at the heart of their m essage, and if the message given to the world is that people are leaving because we are homophobic, it would make a stronger statement.
Quote from: stromboli on July 25, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Being an ex-Mormon and supporter of gay rights, I am of two minds on the issue. First of all the church, however they may claim to, is never going to be anything but homophobic at its core. Much of the same issues that circle around Catholicism are built into Mormonism because there are similarities in the structure of the religion. Considering that they won't do something so simple as allow women to attend Priesthood meetings- which, trust me, are an exercise in lameness- shows how hard and fast they are in their beliefs. Everything the LDS church does on the surface is a PR move, period.
I would rather that LGBT members simply leave the church and their families as well. One article written on the Mormon Curtain website by a former Mormon summed it up by saying "what church do they think they belong to?" There is no give and take, only false PR. If the gay community in Mormonism simply walked out, it would make a stronger statement than any other. Their membership claims are at the heart of their m essage, and if the message given to the world is that people are leaving because we are homophobic, it would make a stronger statement.
Yeah, this is nothing more than some lame ass PR move. What gets me mad is that a lot of gay ex-Mormons will lap this shit up. They'll see it as signs that their former religion finally accepts them for who they are, rejoin the church, and then learn that nothing has changed and get stuck in the same cycle of self loathing they were in before they left. Fuck those bastards. I'm sure the kid didn't know about it, and actually thought he was doing good, but fuck those who organized this and any other leaders of homophobic religions who put on this "gay friendly" face during pride parades in order to snatch a few converts. I have more respect for the anti gay protesters, at least they state plainly what they're for. Those people are wolves in sheep's clothing.
Quote from: stromboli on July 25, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Being an ex-Mormon and supporter of gay rights, I am of two minds on the issue. First of all the church, however they may claim to, is never going to be anything but homophobic at its core. Much of the same issues that circle around Catholicism are built into Mormonism because there are similarities in the structure of the religion. Considering that they won't do something so simple as allow women to attend Priesthood meetings- which, trust me, are an exercise in lameness- shows how hard and fast they are in their beliefs. Everything the LDS church does on the surface is a PR move, period.
Also racist at the core. Unless they get rid of verses like 2 Nephi 5:21, Alma 3:6-7 etc., but to me Mormonism was built on hatred. Hatred of blacks (or non-whites in general), hatred of women, and hatred of the Catholic Church. I've read The Book of Mormon (3 years ago, only the one time) and after reading it I found it was the perfect religion for educated white men.
It hates everyone but educated white men...who are Mormon.
QuoteI would rather that LGBT members simply leave the church and their families as well. One article written on the Mormon Curtain website by a former Mormon summed it up by saying "what church do they think they belong to?" There is no give and take, only false PR. If the gay community in Mormonism simply walked out, it would make a stronger statement than any other. Their membership claims are at the heart of their m essage, and if the message given to the world is that people are leaving because we are homophobic, it would make a stronger statement.
Everyone who is a Mormon that isn't a white man/boy must really hate themselves.
At least with the Bible it's written in a way that it could be interpreted any way one wants to but with The Book Mormon not too many ways to say "Only white people go to heaven.".
-Nam
It is mind boggling to me when I see black members of Mormonism. Mia Love, Haitian American and Tea Party candidate for the House in 2012, is a stirling example. You have to not know anything of church history prior to 1978 or ignore it completely, or buy into the whole wow, prophecy! Now saying blacks can hold the priesthood.
The gay rights issue is different because the gay members are home grown, declaring themselves gay in families that are often staunch members. I don't honestly see an outreach to non-member gays in their proselytizing, but we are talking about a relative small minority, so it is not of concern to the church.
Like I said, its all PR. Just like Popalicious Hisself, Francis the Talking Pope. Cover the reality with a veneer of words and supposed new behavior yet behind the veil run the same old religion. The two churches probably take notes from each other.
I don't hate religious people unless they are hateful bigots, but organized religion has throughout history shown how evil they are, even today. They're like politicians, in it for the power and money, and controlling people's lives. Solitary
There's this ustadzah here in Indonesia who's been saying that being gay is okay, that it's not sinful. She gets a lot of criticism for that. I think it's nice and cool if those religious people have finally come to realize that there's nothing wrong with being gay, regardless of their motives behind it. Still, it will not change my mind about the religion. It's nice, but I'll never come back to my former religion just because it finally says it's okay to be me.
Quote from: StupidWiz on July 25, 2014, 06:09:28 PM
There's this ustadzah here in Indonesia who's been saying that being gay is okay, that it's not sinful. She gets a lot of criticism for that. I think it's nice and cool if those religious people have finally come to realize that there's nothing wrong with being gay, regardless of their motives behind it. Still, it will not change my mind about the religion. It's nice, but I'll never come back to my former religion just because it finally says it's okay to be me.
I don't know what your situation is, but the thought occurs that by identifying with that, you might be opening yourself for attack. I know that on ex-Mormon websites, there are a lot of gays that post and tell some real horror stories of treatment, more often by their families than anyone else. The problem with Mormonism is that the real interaction takes place at the Ward and Stake level, a few steps below what the hierarchy of Mormonism is directly involved with. Bishops and Stake Presidents have a fair amount of autonomy in ther actions, and they can range from understanding to out and out rabid homophobia. The reality is always darker than what is projected to the public.
Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't just a ploy to get them "out" so they can more easily identify those they'd like to ostracise. Put a face on what they hate!
Hey, Jesus loves everyone except the ones he hates.. ..
I had a thread on here not long ago about a staunchly Mormon California family that protested for Prop 8 vigorously, and then discovered their son was gay. Oops. so, the whole "reconcile the religion with the homophobia trip" so junior can stay a Mormon, attend the Y and so forth.
I'm sorry, but that is denial that surpasses understanding. The thought that your religion was so inherently homophobic versus the reality of homosexuality, would in my mind automatically start to question the validity of the religion. It took a lot less than that for me. The family is so ingrained in the religion that they do every kind of mental agility to deal with the situation without actually looking at the root cause. The issue is so clear cut to me I can't begin to understand how these people think.
They don't, critically anyways.
Quote from: stromboli on July 26, 2014, 02:22:23 AMThe thought that your religion was so inherently homophobic versus the reality of homosexuality, would in my mind automatically start to question the validity of the religion. It took a lot less than that for me. The family is so ingrained in the religion that they do every kind of mental agility to deal with the situation without actually looking at the root cause. The issue is so clear cut to me I can't begin to understand how these people think.
Yeah, I don't get that either. Seems way more difficult to keep a belief like that going in the face of tangible evidence to the contrary.
EVIDENCE? That's sacrilege to faith, and scientific. How dare you infidel! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: Solitary
Quote from: Nam on July 25, 2014, 12:14:40 PM
Also racist at the core. Unless they get rid of verses like 2 Nephi 5:21, Alma 3:6-7 etc., but to me Mormonism was built on hatred. Hatred of blacks (or non-whites in general), hatred of women, and hatred of the Catholic Church. I've read The Book of Mormon (3 years ago, only the one time) and after reading it I found it was the perfect religion for educated white men.
It hates everyone but educated white men...who are Mormon.
Everyone who is a Mormon that isn't a white man/boy must really hate themselves.
At least with the Bible it's written in a way that it could be interpreted any way one wants to but with The Book Mormon not too many ways to say "Only white people go to heaven.".
-Nam
I showed my parents and neighbors those verses you mentioned. We all agreed it'll be great fun when the Mormons come back.
And yet black Mia Love, staunch Mormon and Tea Party politician, buys into it just fine. Don't forget the church is led by a modern day prophet that receives revelation. From Ezra Taft Benson's "
fourteen points for following the prophet"
https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng
QuoteFirst: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.
Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.
Get it? This is how you morph from racist to not racist. You first are telling your followers stfu and do what we tell you, then blandly obviate anything previous, i.e. canonized scripture, numerous "personal statements" that used to be scripture and so on. I highly doubt that there will be a revelation on this because gays don't represent a big enough segment of the population and the church by and large is very antigay.
The other issue now is women holding the priesthood. I won't even go there. It is way past stupid, even by comparison.
Quote from: stromboli on August 02, 2014, 07:04:31 AM
And yet black Mia Love, staunch Mormon and Tea Party politician, buys into it just fine. Don't forget the church is led by a modern day prophet that receives revelation. From Ezra Taft Benson's "fourteen points for following the prophet"
https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng
Get it? This is how you morph from racist to not racist. You first are telling your followers stfu and do what we tell you, then blandly obviate anything previous, i.e. canonized scripture, numerous "personal statements" that used to be scripture and so on. I highly doubt that there will be a revelation on this because gays don't represent a big enough segment of the population and the church by and large is very antigay.
The other issue now is women holding the priesthood. I won't even go there. It is way past stupid, even by comparison.
So much like the Catholic Church, they're making shit up as they go along, eh?
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on August 02, 2014, 08:20:18 AM
So much like the Catholic Church, they're making shit up as they go along, eh?
Yup, pretty much.
You know the funniest thing about the issue of gay rights and religion, its that in almost all organized religions, gay rights is one of the first things to be hampered and oppressed, even if in secret. So anyone who follows a certain faith (including gay people in faith groups) if they want to express their support for gay rights, it would mean backing down on their own belief system to do so, putting them firmly in the middle field, not smart enough to leave a faith that promotes gay stoning at its core, and in doing so still supporting a cause in the eyes of gay people that would oppress them.
There is no middle ground here.
Quote from: Munch on August 02, 2014, 08:55:38 AM
You know the funniest thing about the issue of gay rights and religion, its that in almost all organized religions, gay rights is one of the first things to be hampered and oppressed, even if in secret. So anyone who follows a certain faith (including gay people in faith groups) if they want to express their support for gay rights, it would mean backing down on their own belief system to do so, putting them firmly in the middle field, not smart enough to leave a faith that promotes gay stoning at its core, and in doing so still supporting a cause in the eyes of gay people that would oppress them.
There is no middle ground here.
Well said, and exactly the point. Religion is by nature an absolute- either it is true or it isn't. If it is true, then not adhering to the doctrines and principles means you are in error. If it is false, anything done within the framework of it is pointless. That bit of logic was the starting point of my journey out of Mormonism.
It seems to me the more radical a person is with their religion, the more they use it to give support, or comfort, for their strong negative feelings and emotions. :eek: :pirate: :angel: Solitary
Mormons are coming Tuesday, wish me luck. Any other fucked up verses you guys know about?