From the BBC...
QuoteA Malaysian airliner carrying 295 people has crashed in east Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, amid allegations it was shot down.
Bodies are scattered around what is believed to be the wreckage of the jet near the village of Grabovo, which is under the control of separatist rebels.
Flight MH17 had been due to enter Russian airspace when contact was lost.
Ukraine's president called the loss of the plane an "act of terrorism" as the rebels denied shooting it down.
The separatists are believed to have shot down two Ukrainian military planes over the region in recent days.
There is no official closure of Ukraine airspace but Germany's Lufthansa, Air France and Turkish Airlines are all now avoiding eastern Ukraine.
I don't know which way to think; on one hand it is REALLY fishy that it went down in the middle of a war torn country; on the other... it is a Malaysian Airliner... also, just last night a Ukrainian military jet was shot down in Eastern Ukraine as had one earlier this week. Perhaps a case of mistaken identity and the MA plane being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Really getting sick of how the American media is obsessing over the fact that there were bodies and body parts stewn all over the place though... there is no need for that shock-gore porn. We get it, an airline crashed (and possibly exploded)... that is what happens, move on and don't exploit those people's suffering for your own ratings.
I only watch Rachel Maddow.
-Nam
The BBC is American media?
Quote from: Poison Tree on July 17, 2014, 02:36:40 PM
The BBC is American media?
BBC America -- duh.
:wink:
-Nam
One thing that never changes with the news media, if it bleeds it leads..
You might be a bit repulsed by that, but it's a time tested formula.
I have no idea who shot it down because I really don't buy into the one sided western media coverage that seemingly automatically takes sides and the Ukrainian government has a strong neo Nazi element to it and a robust propaganda arm backed by the west..
I feel sad for the people involved, but you shouldn't fly a commercial plane over an active war zone. You shouldn't fly any plane over a war zone unless you have business being there. If this plane avoided that area this wouldn't have happened. Right now both sides are pointing fingers, tough there does seem to some be evidence that the separatists or Russians shot it down, but I'm going to hold my tongue and my opinion until more info comes out.
Quote from: Poison Tree on July 17, 2014, 02:36:40 PM
The BBC is American media?
Was talking about CNN and huffington post coverage I have seen.
Quote from: The Skeletal Atheist on July 17, 2014, 03:17:36 PM
I feel sad for the people involved, but you shouldn't fly a commercial plane over an active war zone. You shouldn't fly any plane over a war zone unless you have business being there. If this plane avoided that area this wouldn't have happened. Right now both sides are pointing fingers, tough there does seem to some be evidence that the separatists or Russians shot it down, but I'm going to hold my tongue and my opinion until more info comes out.
If the Russians did it, that's going to be a huge blow to Putin.
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on July 17, 2014, 03:31:06 PM
If the Russians did it, that's going to be a huge blow to Putin.
-Nam
It's going to be a huge blow to whoever did it. US media is siding with Ukraine on this, of course, but at the moment anyone who tries to say they know who did it and wasn't there is a fucking liar. I'll wait until the hype clears before I make my judgement.
Is this what happened to the commercial jet over the ocean they still haven't found"
Quote from: Solitary on July 17, 2014, 04:38:35 PM
Is this what happened to the commercial jet over the ocean they still haven't found"
No, but russian propeganda is actually spinning a bullshit story where this is supposedly the long-missing airliner filled with already dead people, downed by Ukrania on purpose to make Russia look bad; disgusting.
To all appearances this is a horrible fuckup, not unlike http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 when an american vessel downed an airliner under the false assumption it was an enemy F14. It's debatable how well the US govt dealt with the aftermath of that sad event, but how Moscow and the russian seperatists are handling things right now is undeniably appalling, and outright suspicious.
In before anyone suggests going over there and TCB... there are too damn many domino-stones standing upright worldwide... Central Africa, ISIS, Gaza, China's alledged territorial borders, N Korea, etc... please don't root for this becoming the one to topple and start a chainreaction. European countries have been cutting down on their defense budget for decades.
The local paper had a write-up about it yesterday. Apparently, Putin says that Ukraine's government's inability to keep the peace is what caused the plane to go down. Also, Russia has nothing to do with the separatists. Sounds legit.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 17, 2014, 02:20:33 PM
Really getting sick of how the American media is obsessing over the fact that there were bodies and body parts stewn all over the place though... there is no need for that shock-gore porn.
The american news media are in the business of making money. They do that by any means necessary the least of which is reporting actual news in a non-bias way.
Quote from: Jutter on July 20, 2014, 02:37:26 PM
No, but russian propeganda is actually spinning a bullshit story where this is supposedly the long-missing airliner filled with already dead people, downed by Ukrania on purpose to make Russia look bad; disgusting.
I just saw that ruse on an episode of Sherlock. Russia needs to hire better writers.
Ok first off i dont see how a civilian airliner can be mistaken for a military plane thats just bullshite, and on the itv news this evening they said that the russian seperatists are saying that they '' may have shot it down'', wtf, if you ask me the russians know more about this than they are admitting to.
The fact is, a plane load of innocent people are now dead.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 17, 2014, 02:20:33 PM
Really getting sick of how the American media is obsessing over the fact that there were bodies and body parts stewn all over the place though... there is no need for that shock-gore porn. We get it, an airline crashed (and possibly exploded)... that is what happens, move on and don't exploit those people's suffering for your own ratings.
Or there might actually have been bodies and body parts strewn all over the place. Sounds like accurate reporting to me.
And the right wing nilly willies are already blaming Obama for being weak with Putin AS IF he should have started WWIII over this..
Quote from: stromboli on July 20, 2014, 09:37:01 PM
Or there might actually have been bodies and body parts strewn all over the place. Sounds like accurate reporting to me.
I'm sorry, but how is that relevant?
We know what happens when a plane crashes, there is a car wreck or there is a school shooting... there will be bodies, there will be blood. There is no need to fetish-sise that shit and go into details. Maybe say once, "Yeah, there are bodies all over the place" but there is no need to go on and on about how the bodies were torn to shreds, limbs scattered here in there, you can tell this part of the body from that part of the body, they saw a burning torso buried under some rubble, etc. etc. like the media did.
Call me crazy, but I just don't see how that is relevant to the story, all that is is shock-gore pornography to get ratings and push an agenda, and while I realize it works it also shows zero journalistic integrity.
There are only two important details in the story; A plane crashed with 290-some aboard and the cause of it going down are unknown. How fucked up the bodies got is not relevant to the story and is both disrespectful to the families of the dead and is just really appealing to the lowest common denominator of humanity. I realize its a business so they are going to do that, but just like when we say "Fuck Wall Street" or "Fuck Walmart" or whatever... I have every right to feel this deserves just as big of "Fuck you" to the media.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 20, 2014, 11:36:47 PM
A plane crashed with 290-some aboard and the cause of it going down are unknown. How fucked up the bodies got is not relevant to the story and is both disrespectful to the families of the dead and is just really appealing to the lowest common denominator of humanity. I realize its a business so they are going to do that, but just like when we say "Fuck Wall Street" or "Fuck Walmart" or whatever... I have every right to feel this deserves just as big of "Fuck you" to the media.
The body parts part of the story not only appeals to lowest common denominator, but also to the public at large. It's shocking, grotesque, and creates a visceral response. Unfortunately, in this case, it might be the only substantial fact being reported in the whole story.
Most of the reporting seems to be about what people are speculating, and it's a good thing too. Otherwise, viewers would have no idea what they should speculate about. As the media loads the public with irrelevant information, some speculations become more popular than others. This gives the politicians a sense of what they can spin to demonize the opposition party and to gain votes for themselves.
It also, demands more air time and allows the media to utilize additional experts that are constantly standing by to be experts on whatever it is they are required to be experts about: "This evening we have with us in the studio, Norman Putz, from Columbia University Law School, who is an expert on Ukrainians that Shoot Down Civilian Aircraft, which is an on going problem he has been studying for 17 years. Tell us, Dr. Putz, why is this a problem?"
It's a huge part of the propaganda spin. Without blood, gore and guts and grossing people out how else do you expect the government to be able to talk 17 and 18 year old kids to go be willing to die for your 'FREEDOM'?
It's standard fare in the prelude to war. Make it so utterly repulsive everyone will be glad to send their neighbors kids off to die.