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Before I get started, I'd like to say that this post actually got me banned from the ThinkAtheist forum because it gave some people the impression that I was proselytizing an "LSD God." That is entirely a misinterpretation of what I'm attempting to convey here. So, I must make it clear right from the get go that I'm not trying to sell anyone any specific concept or ideology. These are simply my opinions, and so you're welcome to think whatever you may of them, but please allow them to ricochet before you're quick to judge and mistakenly accuse this rap of being an attempt at "proselytizing." The post is as follows:

This topic has been discussed in various threads at the ThinkAtheist forum such as the "McKenna (http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/the-junk-science-of-terrence-mckenna?id=1982180%3ATopic%3A1283003&page=1)" thread and the "Entheogen Theory of Religion (http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/the-entheogen-theory-of-religion?id=1982180%3ATopic%3A1402844&page=1)" thread. The Entheogen theory of Religion is espoused by Michael Hoffman which he elucidates at this website "EgoDeath.com (http://www.egodeath.com/)". However, there is another similar theory which says that these type of experiences are at the very root of religion as in Aldous Huxley's "Perennial Philosophy," which implies that the ingestion of psychedelics may not have been the sole route to inducing a "mystical experience" as Michael Hoffman believes and Terence McKenna initially thought as well. Has anyone read "The Doors of Perception"?


Aldous Huxley makes a reference there to a Perennial Philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perennial_Philosophy) which he espouses as the original root of religion which has its basis in colossal altered states of consciousness. If you scratch all of the major religions, you'll find human beings, just as human as you and I, engaging in altered states of consciousness.

I'll take the example of eastern religion, for instance. What I've sort of come to realize in thinking about all of this is that even though some people may call themselves Buddhist or Hindu, they may have taken upon this label in the same way a Christian has inherited his/her religion through tradition, a set of parents, a geographical area, etc. Likewise, there are people in India whose religion is bestowed upon them in the very same way. However, it was once said by the Buddha that the number of people who've experienced "nirvana" or the "mystical experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_experience#Classical_definitions)" can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That's not meant to be taken literally, but to give an idea of how rare this happening occurs when it comes about naturally. Someone who has had this experience of "nirvana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana)" could then see through the various misconceptions surrounding the religion, and what I'm implying here is that most people who call themselves Buddhist or Hindu have, most likely, not had this religious experience.

Now, you may stop and think, "What you wrote seems a variation of the comment they are not really believers and so therefore I disown them and remove them from the group."

I can see how it may seem that way, sort of like a "No true Scotsman" informal fallacy. However, I will point out that this is in no way a No True Scotsman fallacy, because what must be understood is that this state of mind which is striven for in Hinduism or Buddhism are transcendent of the religions themselves, because it's ultimately a phenomenon in consciousness that anyone, despite their religious background or lack thereof, has the potential for. I mention this because the very goal of these religions and all sects of Buddhism is essentially one and the same thing. It is an altered state of mind in which this insight manifests. Some monks spend their entire lives practicing disciplines in order to attain this insight, and I'd even wager many have died without ever approaching it, and perhaps they receive it at death. I want to make this distinction quite clear, because if you have had this insight, then suddenly all the misconceptions surrounding your religion become clearly transparent and therefore could be disregarded. So, each unique sect of Buddhism, if you look into the matter, you'll find are simply a variety of disciplines which each aim towards the same goal. As one guru put it, "Paths are many, truth is one."

So, this is not anything at all like Christians and Jehovah's witnesses arguing as to which religion is the "correct interpretation," because unlike these religions, Buddhism does not espouse such concepts to be muddled, misinterpreted, misconstrued, handed down from generation to generation to be twisted, misremembered and so forth and so on. What the western religious churches are peddling is high abstraction, a series of concepts which require you to believe based on "faith," and so their whole notion of reality is heavily distorted into these various concepts, and each Christian or Jehovah's witness then understands their religion through the lens of their own individual eisegesis (http://www.answers.com/topic/eisegesis).

Now, Buddhism, on the other hand, is based not on a series of concepts but an experience. A phenomenon in consciousness that can potentially happen to anyone. It is not a "personal experience," because although this phenomenon is often spoken about in religious terms and given labels such as "samadhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi)," "satori (http://www.answers.com/topic/satori)," or "nirvana (http://www.answers.com/topic/nirvana)," it is often described as an "impersonal experience" or a "transpersonal experience" because there are motifs or universal themes within this peculiar experience that are not reducible to the individual. So, then you see although someone might call themself a Buddhist or Hindu this doesn't necessarily mean that they have had the "insight" which after all is the very goal of these religions. So, by this distinction, you could say that Siddartha Gautama was not a Buddhist, but a Buddha. Buddha, as you may know, is the title given to anyone who has "awakened (http://www.answers.com/topic/buddha#Awakening)" or has been "enlightened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(spiritual))."

You know, Buddhists don't go around in the fashion of Jehovah's witnesses telling people they "ought to believe." The point I was trying to make is that the goal of Buddhism is an experience in which you can have for yourself so you don't have to quibble over concepts inside a book. It's when you have to rely on a series of ideas that things can become vague, misconstrued, and this then leads to a vast array of misconception.

Now, you might be thinking, "What the hell is a mystical experience, anyway?! This sounds a lot like the Christian who tells people God is real because they feel god inside them."

I admit, it does sound a lot like that, and I constantly have to make clear distinctions, because if you have not had the experience, then you have no way of interpreting it. Of course, I realize that most people, atheists and theists alike, have probably not have had an experience like this. If you have not had the experience, then you're like Freud in his response to Romain Rolland when he couldn't find any reason to believe that such an experience exists because he could not find it within himself, and so the "oceanic feeling" Rolland mentioned to him only appeared as a footnote in two of Freud's books. The experience by its very nature seems to exceed the very limits of one's expectations and understanding. So, you see, if you have not had this experience, then you are, in a way, intellectually set-up to doubt such an experience exists in the first place, and most people don't realize this possibility in consciousness exists.

So, I want to make it clear that this is not like when a Christian says, "I feel God in my heart," the sort of comment which prompts Matt Dillahunty to retort, "Well, maybe you should go see a doctor." In other words, I agree, you don't want to metaphysicize heartburn. Now, what I'm referring to is a tried-and-true phenomenon that isn't necessarily associated with religion, but has over the years become intertwined. It is a phenomenon in consciousness. I believe religions like Hinduism and Buddhism have surrounded themselves around this phenomenon.

Now, I agree that the Christian might be basing a kind of metaphysical aspect to a subtle or vague feeling that he or she has, but I wouldn't compare this phenomenon to that. As I mentioned before, it doesn't necessarily have to do with a religion. More contemporarily, it has been written about in terms of "ego death (http://www.answers.com/topic/ego-death)" in the psychedelic community, the Teilhardian "Omega Point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point)," "Cosmic Consciousness (http://www.answers.com/topic/richard-bucke#Cosmic_consciousness_experience)" as described by Richard M. Bucke, "peak experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience)" in the writings of Abraham Maslow, "collective unconscious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious)" in Jungian terminology, the "oceanic feeling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanic_feeling)" by Romain Rolland in his letter to Sigmund Freud, and so forth and so on. This is something that if you were to experience it, you'd know without an iota of doubt that what you were experiencing was orders of magnitude different from your ordinary consciousness.

I want to add one more paragraph on distinction for good measure, because I know even with all these details that I've laid out so far, and the details I will add, a person might still leave this blog with a vague notion of what a "mystical experience" may be. I suppose what I'm really trying to get at here is that there is a phenomenon in consciousness that most people don't realize exists, atheists and theists alike, so if you're unfamiliar with these experiences, then when you try and intellectualize what it may be, you may come to a conclusion such as this example I'll post below. It's a response I got from a fellow chatter here by the name of Joan Denoo, and I really hope she doesn't mind I use her post because it's a perfect example, and I'll quote her below as well as link to the thread where the post appears.

The mystical experience is very much a feature of Homo sapiens. There exists a sense of wonder, just seeing water turn into ice or gas, or watching sunrises and sunsets, or the different features of the sky! Then, when one observes birth and death, a more mystical event does not exist as far as I am concerned. None of these involves a god/s. Nature, with all its diversity, presents wonder upon wonder.

I feel she's equating mystical experience with the so-called profundity in the experience of witnessing a birth or death, a sunrise or sunset, watching a grand waterfall, etc. While these experience may be profound in their own way, I would not compare this to a classical mystical experience which up to this point has been discussed mostly in a religious context, but has made its way into contemporary discourse in the form of "ego death" and "Cosmic consciousness" as I've mentioned. Rather, the mystical experience can be better described as a panesthesia (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/panesthesia?s=t). I will go into this a bit more in depth a little later, but these individual experiences you may have thought were "profound" are mere aspects in the mystical experience, because in the mystical experience, you have an overwhelming impression of having all experience at once. Now, of course, it's one to simply say this, it's quite another thing to experience, and that's precisely the point. That most people don't even realize this type of experience is even possible. It truly is a phenomenon in consciousness, and I hopefully I can give you a better idea of what this is like through words, but obviously words fail and the perfect metaphor is yet to be coined, and I believe that's why this experience is so esoteric and peripheral in mainstream society, it's why I believe mysticism is so disconnected from contemporary mainstream religion.

If you want a physiological explanation as to what may be going on, Dr. Rick Strassman (http://www.answers.com/search?q=Dr.+Rick+Strassman) speculates in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" that this colossal transformation in consciousness may be the result of an natural induction of endogenous N,N-DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (http://www.answers.com/topic/dimethyltryptamine)). Most atheists here might be familiar with DMT, but if you're not, I'll briefly go into some details about it. N,N-DMT is a naturally occurring neurotransmitter that is elaborated in the pineal gland also called the "third eye" gland. It's now known that concentrations of DMT spike during the REM stage of sleep and also during a NDE (near-death experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience)), so DMT may account for the "white light (http://www.answers.com/topic/luminous-phenomena)" or the "I saw my life flash before my eyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_review)" phenomena. Now, another detail that must be emphasized is that DMT is also considered one of the world's most powerful entheogen known to exist in nature. Even more powerful than LSD, salvia, psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, or PCP is DMT and there it is right behind your eyebrows. DMT is also a schedule I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act#Schedule_I_controlled_substances) illegal substance in the U.S. and also highly illegal in most countries despite the fact that it occurs naturally within the human brain.

These things are automatically criticized with comments such as, "So God is merely a psychedelic hallucination?" It's not as simple as that. You see, once you associate the word "drug" into a topic like this or the word "God," for that matter, then it muddies the entire conversation and leaves everything quite ambiguous. Because most people don't realize that the mind rests on a chemical foundation that is "drugs." More accurately, I think what this compound is doing is giving us a glimpse into more dense states of neuronal activity than people experience in an ordinary state of consciousness. DMT is a neurotransmitter which attaches itself to serotonergic receptor sites throughout the central and peripheral nervous systems. So, obviously these areas of the brain are being filled with "information." So, instead of a neurological chaos, what I think may be happening, to connect this to Perennial Philosophy and if Strassman is right that DMT is behind this phenomenon, then it's as though we're given a glimpse into a state of mind in which the connectivity of neural pathways are being lit up to such a degree that the experiential content becomes seemingly incomprehensible. In other words, it may be our own minds, but our own minds lit up to such a degree that the informational content of the experience becomes seemingly incomprehensible, and it's this seemingly incomprehensibility that has been interpreted throughout the ages as "God," "Allah," Brahman," "soul," "Shekhina," "Cosmic consciousness," "Nonduality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism)," "ego death," etc. Well, at least that's what Perennial Philosophy is proposing.

So, what Perennial Philosophy of the sort Aldous Huxley wrote about is suggesting is that religion my be a by-product of this phenomenon. That Christ, Muhammad, Gautama, etc. were all mortal men that sometime in their lifetime had this experience of "cosmic consciousness" and when they began to speak about their experiences, each became the founder of a religion. However, in the case of Christianity, Christ was pedestalized in that he was the only "divine being" vouchsafe this experience or at least this is how the religion is expressed today. It's realized in Buddhism that everyone is a potential Buddha, that we all have the potential for this experience.

I want to speak about some aspects about this experience that will make this a bit more clear. There is attributes of this experience one might ascribe to the "Christian God," and I'll define what I mean by that. It's often said that the Christian God is omniscient. Well, in this experience, there's a feeling of what I've come to call "intuitive omniscience." It's a kind of sense that everything is known or a presence of an all-knowingness. It's a kind of panesthesia (http://www.answers.com/topic/panesthesia), if you will, in that you have the impression of having all experience at once. This is more commonly expressed as the feeling of "being one with everything." However, it's not like an intellectual omniscience where at the height of this experience you could be asked any question and be able to give an answer, you see, because it's purely intuitive.

An analogy that I think has been somewhat useful involves a TV set. Imagine you're about to watch the debut episode of the newest "The Walking Dead." The TV displays patterns by turning of RGB signals here, and leaving others off there, and this then creates the current image on the screen. But the potential for your TV to project these patterns were, in a sense, always there, even before the show was filmed. What happens when you display all possible patterns? In other words, when you turn on all RGB signals? You end up with a white screen.  Now, I'm not saying that perhaps this is what people are talking about in the "white light" of the near-death experience, but it's an interesting way of looking at it. However, something like this must be true to account for the experiential content of the mystical experience. It's as though you've turned on all the neural pathways of the brain, and what you are left with is the challenge of trying to describe an experience that, in some sense, contains the entire gamut of experience happening at once. If Strassman is correct that N,N-DMT is the culprit of these so-called "mystical experiences," then perhaps this is what DMT is capable of doing. It's capable of drastically launching you into this colossal altered state of consciousness in which feels as though all neural pathways have been ignited, and this then causes the "seeming incomprehensibility" that I've been trying to articulate here, the feeling that you're somehow experiencing all the experiences there is to experience at once. The feeling of having thought every thought, done everything over and over infinite times. An ultimate ennui that one could scarcely imagine what it's like unless they've experienced it for themselves.

This experience is also accompanied by a very emotionally-charged feeling of what I could only call "agapé" using the Christian word in attempt to describe this powerful emotion. Agapé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape) is a Christian word that means the love Christ felt. It's the love as described in the bible as being infinite, unconditional, ever-forgiving, and spiritual or maternal in nature rather than sexual. When you're actually having this experience and you're feeling this overwhelming love, you can have the impression that the entire world is emotionally asleep from the vantage point of this immense feeling of agapé. As an aside, and I won't get too deeply into this, but Sam Harris (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGHMv73_j04&t=1h34m24s) thought that because DMT competes with serotonin for the receptor site, and because serotonin is the neurotransmitter that neuroscientists associate most with "emotion," that perhaps what DMT may be doing is a kind of overhaul or an overcharge of the receptor site to cause this impression of unfathomable bliss and love. As for the feeling of "oneness," Sam Harris (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viSidNzZlMU) also speculates that perhaps this impression of panesthesia may be due to the heightened neuronal activity that gives way to this feeling of having all experience at once.

Now, if you consider this so-called "mystical experience" as the root of the religious impulse in our species, then you can posit that because Christ was pedestalized, and because Christianity throughout the centuries has become so contorted due to Christ's account or the Bible's testament of it being muddled, misinterpreted, misconstrued, handed down from generation to generation to be twisted, misremembered, edited and re-edited to the point where, if you put forth that mystical experience was the root from which Christianity sprung, obviously the original connection to mystical experience has been completely squeezed out and forgotten of the religion today, and those attributes which originally described aspects of this experience somehow got distorted to be applied to a monotheistic God entity who is omniscient in the intellectual sense of the word, and all-loving, etc. instead of those same attributes describing features of this so-called "mystical experience" as a phenomenon in consciousness.

I don't want to make it seem as though Christianity was completely unaware of this phenomenon of higher consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_consciousness). If you'd look into Christian mysticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism), you'll find that it was esoterically practiced from c.100 A.D. and onward onto the 17th century. You'll find that these mystics practiced disciplines such as quietism (http://www.answers.com/topic/quietism) which is quite akin to the practices in Zen Buddhism that are capable of inducing these altered states. In fact, in Christian mysticism, this altered state was referred to as "Christ consciousness (http://www.answers.com/topic/autobiography-of-a-yogi-chapter-33#Endnotes)" or a glimpse into the "Beatific vision (http://www.answers.com/topic/beatific-vision)." Obviously, today mysticism or a theosophical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy) approach to the nature of consciousness have been completely divorced from the practices that go on in the contemporary Christian churches or any other mainstream western religious church. As I said before, what they're peddling now is high abstraction.

I'm not sure if I made it clear, but if I hadn't, I'd like to emphasize it once more and that is you don't have to be part of a religion to get this experience. It can happen to anyone. It's simply that throughout the centuries, it has become interwoven with religion, and in fact, religion could be seen as a repercussion of this experience. I'll leave you guys with a talk given by Alan Watts on the topic of Perennial Philosophy.

I think I'll wait for the movie..........is this available on audio book?

Holy walls of text Batman!

OK, I'm a masochist and have read them all. What I see is a lot of "I believe", "I think", "maybe", "it may seem", etc. Facts and evidence? None.

I mostly scanned and when post #2 (part II) showed up, I just skipped it, hoping to figure it out from reader comments.  I don't see why it was banned.  I'm guessing the banning was for something that happened in subsequent discussion.

Short version: Drugs are a thing, omg.

For starters, look up the word brevity.

I'm not sure why this was banned either. The type of experience you are describing is fairly well documented and can be induced with drugs and repetitive sounds and movements, such as chanting and even military cadence marching. This experience of "oneness", the self falling away and sense of awe, is suspected to be a sensation associated with belief in spirituality and religion. I find the entire field of the neurology of belief fascinating and suspect that some people are neurologically predisposed to spiritual beliefs and ritualism. Having worked with people who have psychotic episodes I've noticed the features of paranoia, grandiosity and religious preoccupation that affect certain people but not others and how these conditions respond to medication.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on July 03, 2014, 08:54:34 AM
I'm not sure why this was banned either. The type of experience you are describing is fairly well documented and can be induced with drugs and repetitive sounds and movements, such as chanting and even military cadence marching. This experience of "oneness", the self falling away and sense of awe, is suspected to be a sensation associated with belief in spirituality and religion. I find the entire field of the neurology of belief fascinating and suspect that some people are neurologically predisposed to spiritual beliefs and ritualism. Having worked with people who have psychotic episodes I've noticed the features of paranoia, grandiosity and religious preoccupation that affect certain people but not others and how these conditions respond to medication.

Thank you. Don't particularly want to wade through a wall of text. I have experienced oneness with other people and oneness with nature and oneness with certain messages of hope. I have experienced oneness on pot, oneness on Mescaline and oneness completely straight on a clear morning in the wilderness.

My interpretation is that certain conditions set up certain biochemical reactions, i.e. spirituality. I'm not going to do extensive reading on this because I have already explored it personally. And I have from time to time mentioned it on this forum, to varying degrees of acceptance.

People on here who have chosen to accept spirituality through deism, Wicca, Universalist Unitarianism or whatever have been largely either attacked or belittled, which is sad. The innate ability of human beings to experience those things outside of mainstream religion and not in some hack spiritualistic cult is a fact, and yes, it should be quantified. I already have, so enjoy.

(edit) btw, if I have misinterpreted the intent of the post by assuming GSOgymrat's mention was something of a summary, forgive me. I'll read the wall of text later and correct if necessary.

I am not reading any of that.

I confess I skimmed for the salient points.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on July 03, 2014, 10:43:06 AM
I confess I skimmed for the salient points.

Were there any?

The thinking atheist site never ban people for trolling. Trolling in this site isn't against the rules believe it or not . Jeremy walker was banned after 3 months of intensive trolling because the fucktard created and used multiple accounts . Having multiple accounts is against the rules . You do something very extreme or weird to get banned. Seriously getting banned from the thinking atheist site is very hard.

Thank you! I noticed some contradiction in the first post. Saying transient experiences aren't subjective is one of them. Also, Buddha himself never believed in the majority of what the various school's taught, or that he had divine guidance, or was a god. People that have prefrontal lope epilepsy have the types of experience that past religious leaders have had. We all have a psychedelic chemical in our bodies that can cause all of this. Nothing new here---accept that some people believe in magic, and think these experiences are objective, so do those that are insane. Solitary

Why does no one use thesis statements anymore? I'm not reading a goddamn wall of text whose subject I don't know.

Quote from: DunkleSeele on July 03, 2014, 05:32:40 AM
Holy walls of text Batman!

OK, I'm a masochist and have read them all. What I see is a lot of "I believe", "I think", "maybe", "it may seem", etc. Facts and evidence? None.

The evidence is at the very beginning of the second post. I did try and make this succinct, but unfortunately, this is as succinct as I could make it. I apologize for its lengthiness, but I assure you, each paragraph makes a valid point.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 04:11:03 AM
Before I get started, I'd like to say that this post actually got me banned from the ThinkAtheist forum ....

And you thought you would not receive the same treatment here, why?

Quote from: stromboli on July 03, 2014, 10:34:44 AM
(edit) btw, if I have misinterpreted the intent of the post by assuming GSOgymrat's mention was something of a summary, forgive me. I'll read the wall of text later and correct if necessary.

Yes, I'd appreciate your feedback if you have the time to read it later, because I feel the examples you gave for this "oneness" is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a different phenomenon altogether.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 03, 2014, 01:37:57 PM
And you thought you would not receive the same treatment here, why?

Because I start out here saying that the "God of LSD" is not what this is about. I also link to the "Entheogen Theory of Religion" thread at the ThinkAtheist forum where I sort of get into this stuff with a fellow TA member there. If you see the back-and-forth dialogue we have, you'll notice I answer all the questions he has, and yet at the very end he misconstrues this concept as some form of proselytizing. I created this thread after the fact, and it was that particular member that reported me. This post actually goes over the concept in detail, and if assimilated or understood, you'll find quite clearly that this is not what that TA member claimed it was about.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 03, 2014, 01:34:35 PM
Why does no one use thesis statements anymore? I'm not reading a goddamn wall of text whose subject I don't know.

Well, that's the reason for the walls of text. It's to introduce someone who is new to a concept like this, and make sure most important aspects are covered as in neurological explanations, other theories and speculations, etc.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 01:43:52 PM
Well, that's the reason for the walls of text. It's to introduce someone who is new to a concept like this, and make sure most important aspects are covered as in neurological explanations, other theories and speculations, etc.

Then use a fucking thesis statement so I know what I'm walking into. My goodness, did they not teach you this in highschool?

yep, I read the first sentence and immediately went ADD

No thanks to the wall of text

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM

Have you ever heard a mushroom called amanita muscaria' ? It's natural lsd. It's also known as toadstool. It's estimated that people have started to use it in rituals tens of thousands of years ago to feel that 'oneness' and enlightenement of supreme spirituality, however it is also known about its violent affects and if you considered some of the rituals, it is some sort of gore horror movie before beautiful oneness.

Of course, I'm familiar with Amanita muscaria. It's not natural LSD, unless you were using that as some kind of metaphor, but actually contains muscimol which is not even in the same tryptamine family as LSD. Psilocybin mushrooms aren't as toxic as Amanita muscaria and the use of psilocybin-containing mushrooms predates that of Amanita. Psilocybe species are far less toxic than that of Amanitas, and are actually the preferred mushroom for shamanic use.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
In short it is very ancient. It has been prohibited by Romans in west and replaced with wine in festivals, because of it is uncontrollable violent effects.

Are you familiar with the Elusinian mysteries?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
However the question of how the idea(s) of a supreme creator or religion was born or evolved do what they are now do not need an answer based on psychedelic experiences. Yes we know almost for sure that 'divination' and 'prophesying' or anything of the sort used some kind of drugs, similar substances, but also fastening and extreme isolation did the same job. People often used these for prophesying and religious experience too. It's text book initiation ceremony in most ancient cults and mystic schools. If you starve people in dark for some time, feed them specific stuff only, I promise you some of them will start to hallucinate at some point.

I'm not sure if you read the entire post as I had to separate it into two parts because of the character limit, but I actually address this issue at the beginning of the second post. You see, even in the case of the naturally induced "mystical experience" by way of fasting or other ascetic means, there is strong speculation that this may be a natural induction of N,N-DMT which your own body makes. So, it comes back to "psychedelics" even in the case of the natural method.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
If you desire to get the bottom of the how the idea of a creator was born, you are in the wrong place of the map. The map far bigger than your perception suggests. Your op also treats the problem in a homogenous way, as something developed everywhere the same, determined by similar factors in a linear historical line. Incorrect. Wrong. History doesn't work that way, human cultures did not-do not develop that way.

I find the "creator God" to be trivial in comparison to this phenomenon I'm speaking about. Are you familiar with the notion of "Brahman" in eastern religion? It's how the Hindus viewed "God," but you see, their notion of God is not even an entity for starters. This boggles the mind of a lot of atheists who've grown up always imagining God as some form of all-powerful, all-knowing entity. The sort of God that George Carlin made fun of, the so-called "sky daddy." I believe this phenomenon in consciousness reveals something more profound than a "creator God." The states of samadhi that Hindus engaged in allowed them to translate their experience into this notion of Brahman, you could call it an afflatus, perhaps. Likewise, in shamanism, in engaging in altered states through the use of ayahuasca or psilocybin-containing mushrooms, similarly profound ideas were drawn out of the experience.

Now, as for the "creator God," I believe that this sort of notion of God came later. For instance, in ancient shamanic civilizations, when things like the mushrooms became scarce and were no longer part of the main rituals, then the Gods became the "God of wheat," the "God of corn," etc. The loss of the connection to this experience gave way for less creative notions of deities which usually were in the form of some kind of entity. Now, as I said, the original divine concepts contained no entity at all. I'll give you example below. Alan Watts describes the idea of "Brahman" or how it's also stated in Buddhism, "The Self."  Listen out for 'The final Self.'

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
Humans didn't first imagined or hallucinated the god and then got in to work to build a system on it. One God  is very young compared to understanding of a divine creator in human history.

To the contrary. You're obviously not familiar with Perennial Philosophy or I take it any of these type of altered states either whether induced naturally through a discipline like meditation or through psychedelics. I think you'll find these states of mind are far more profound than the notion of a "creator God." If you're religious, sure, you might think that you've witnessed God at the peak of this experience; if you're a UFO nut, you might be inclined to believe that you've fused consciousness with an extraterrestrial that is eons and eons ahead of us in evolution; if you're an atheist, you might use a more mathematical diction and believe at the height of the experienced you glimpsed a "higher dimension." In either case, something profound, transcendental, and interconnected is intuit by the individual.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
The terms you used in your post lack historical perception. I will take 'mysticism'. It was not what we understand now. (Mysticism  has become what it is defined by scholars in contrast of abrahamic religion and then ages of enlightenment and reason.) For ancient cults, some series of explanations of patterns in nature itself are mysticism. So there are schools for it. Mathematics is mysticism. 22/7 mystic. 0 is mystic. 5, 7, 9. Apple in half, barnacles, birds and their behaviours, before all that trees. Shapes of leaves...etc. Anything in nature, around them. because there isn't anything else.

Mysticism is a theosophical approach of understanding the nature of the universe and of consciousness. The way it associates itself with mathematics is because the hallucinogenic imagery seen in these experiences are usually that of a mandalic-type. Mandala is an old word for a enclosed, circular geometric pattern, but today a more modern term for mandala is fractal. These fractals contain very precise mathematics as you've described, and perhaps you're familiar with "Phi," etc.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
Idea of one creator is however needs a long way to come, because it needs larger scale of tyranny. And a very complicated set of conditions to afford that.

The idea of a "creator God" is already a false notion to begin with. I believe a "creator deity" was born out of the fanciful imagination, not the mystical experience.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
What is the question to ask to start this kind of inquiry? You need one, because it doesn't work like 'drugs existed and they used it to develop some idea about god because it made them feel one; it fits'. You can ask what was the role of drugs in ancient cults or in evolution of monotheistic god, but you cannot give an answer starting from because they imagined it under influence (meaning first they invented the concept.) Obviously you can, but it would be telling another fairy tale. Bullshit.

Like the person I met in ThinkAtheist, you've obviously misconstrued what I'm trying to get at here. This is not an explanation for a "God" of any sort. What I'm saying basically is that in ancient times when people would have these type of experiences it was of such profundity that "God" was simply a metaphor to attempt to describe an ultimate state of consciousness. I'm not sure if you'll take the time to view the video I linked you to, but this concept of "the final self of all selves" is closer to what you might experience during a mystical experience. This is why I've used the word "panesthesia" in the post, but it seems your response was only toward the first section of the post, not the second. You may have mistakenly skimmed through the first post thinking that's all I typed, but you may have overlooked the second portion which is right below the first post.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
This is the problem with home made ideas. Social science, anthropology, history require you to ask relevant series of questions in the beginning to arrive a specific factor that you suspect it played a significant role in the process. The 'largest' question we can achieve is asked by anthropology and it is 'what can I know about humans cultures?'

For me, the answer to that question is that obviously, these very early human cultures had an entire complex of hallucinogens that they were using in a very ritualistic fashion. Take the Aztecs, for instance. They had an entire cornucopia of hallucinogens that they used. If Terence McKenna's right, it may go back even further than that. Have you heard of the "Stoned Ape hypothesis"? McKenna proposed the idea that even when we were roaming the African veldt as hominids, we came across the psilocybin mushroom growing out  of the dung of the ungulate animals. Including this item in our diet over the span of perhaps 100,000 years is actually what propelled us to evolve into self-reflecting human beings in the first place. In fact, I even link at the top of the original post to a thread at ThinkAtheist where the members there discuss this concept at length. The thread itself is about 40 pages long and an interesting read and contains a lot of links to McKenna's lectures, etc.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 11:28:48 AM
If it's an ancient historical one you desire to question, you are in a more difficult, dark area of the map. Again, you cannot start with literature or personal experiences, because you think it fits. Social scientists been there, done that long time ago, almost every time they fell on their nose. It's bullshit. In short, you need to change perception.

I could say the same to yourself. Would you be willing to take up one of Terence McKenna's sugggestion of the "heroic dose" or perhaps try ayahuasca? You'd not only change your perception, but undergo a metanoia ever afterward. Terence used to say, "If you think I'm bullshitting you, why don't you go try five dried grams of mushrooms, and then come back and tell me I'm full of shit. I doubt you'd be able to."

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 03, 2014, 01:58:43 PM
Then use a fucking thesis statement so I know what I'm walking into. My goodness, did they not teach you this in highschool?

But it's not a thesis. I personally don't view it as much text. I read blogs and posts on average far larger than this, but I'm a heavy reader, so maybe to me it's not so daunting. Would writing "thesis" actually get you to read it? I mean, if that amount of text turns you off, then ignore the post. Why bother even leaving a comment?

I apologize for the lack of brevity, but I tried to make it more concise. I really did. Unfortunately, this is about as succinct as I could put it.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 11:49:33 AM
Thank you! I noticed some contradiction in the first post. Saying transient experiences aren't subjective is one of them. Also, Buddha himself never believed in the majority of what the various school's taught, or that he had divine guidance, or was a god. People that have prefrontal lope epilepsy have the types of experience that past religious leaders have had. We all have a psychedelic chemical in our bodies that can cause all of this. Nothing new here---accept that some people believe in magic, and think these experiences are objective, so do those that are insane. Solitary

What I mean by "aren't subjective," is they're not subjective in the traditional sense of the word. In other words, these experiences contain archetypes and motifs that cannot be reduced to the individual's personal unconscious. Instead, these experiences are often described as "universal" or a kind of tapping into "collective unconscious" to use a Jungian term. I realize we all possess the most powerful psychedelic that is manufactured naturally within our own bodies. Temporal lobe epilepsy can also cause experiences quite like this one. I do take into account that there is many paths to having these types of experiences. There's meditation, a stroke or temporal lope epilepsy can cause this as in Jill Bolte Taylor's "Stroke of Insight," you can attain it through ascetic means such as taking body through extreme measures, a near-death experience can cause this experience to happen, powerful magnets can cause this to occur as in the example of the "God helmet," and then there's the shamanic use of psychedelics which seem to be the most reliable path to it with not much risk if you can manage to take the necessary precautionary efforts.

I have a degree in English Literature. I have written books' worth of research over the years, and probably half a books' worth on here. You really need to learn how to convey your thoughts more succinctly. A thesis statement at the beginning, making summary points and condensing your thoughts would serve you much better. That is all I'm saying. Drunkenshoe more aptly said what I would say already. Done here.

Quote from: stromboli on July 03, 2014, 02:41:52 PM
I have a degree in English Literature. I have written books' worth of research over the years, and probably half a books' worth on here. You really need to learn how to convey your thoughts more succinctly. A thesis statement at the beginning, making summary points and condensing your thoughts would serve you much better. That is all I'm saying. Drunkenshoe more aptly said what I would say already. Done here.

If you actually take the time to read it, I don't think you'll find where I could cut corners. Trust me, I've done this. I tried to make it as succinct as possible. I've responded to Drunkenshoe, by the way. I really don't think you're done here, unless you're simply not interested, because I don't think you've really gone into this deeply enough. I think I could point out certain things to you that would be interesting, but I don't think you'd be interested, anyway since you didn't even take the time to read it. You tried understanding the post by someone else's misinterpreted summary, and then you end with the idea that you and Drunkenshoe share the same perspective, and so his answer is your answer. I happen to disagree with Drunkenshoe, and I've answered very specifically her concerns.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 02:53:48 PM
I've answered very specifically his concerns.

her

So some people get ripped and see 'god', woo or whatever you want to call it then come up with some cockamamie ideas and whalla!  Hey! If we had the power over life and death and the mechanisms to make others enforce our cockamamie notions we too could be the enlightened ones.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 02:38:04 PM
What I mean by "aren't subjective," is they're not subjective in the traditional sense of the word. In other words, these experiences contain archetypes and motifs that cannot be reduced to the individual's personal unconscious. Instead, these experiences are often described as "universal" or a kind of tapping into "collective unconscious" to use a Jungian term. I realize we all possess the most powerful psychedelic that is manufactured naturally within our own bodies. Temporal lobe epilepsy can also cause experiences quite like this one. I do take into account that there is many paths to having these types of experiences. There's meditation, a stroke or temporal lope epilepsy can cause this as in Jill Bolte Taylor's "Stroke of Insight," you can attain it through ascetic means such as taking body through extreme measures, a near-death experience can cause this experience to happen, powerful magnets can cause this to occur as in the example of the "God helmet," and then there's the shamanic use of psychedelics which seem to be the most reliable path to it with not much risk if you can manage to take the necessary precautionary efforts.

Even if they are suppose to be archetypes they are still subjective experiences and not objective experiences. also, phycology and psychiatry are not science accept for neurology, and even that is open to speculation. Everything you talk about can be done by stimulating the brain, which is an objective object, but the experience is still a subjective one. You are using word gymnastics and the fallacy of Non sequitur which not logical. There are no connections between those experiences and the past or objective reality accept the human brain. Are you a Deepak Chopra fan? Solitary

What's up with all these New Agers trying to prove God exists because of subjective experience that don't prove anything about reality. This is still religious BS in a new wrapper. This is why I don't like philosophy like I did when younger. It is why Einstein was correct after showing that his theories were tested in objective reality. The mathematics of quantum mechanics works even if it isn't understood, but to translate this not understanding, which is ignorance, therefore God did it, is disingenuous at best.  :wall: Solitary

http://www.philosophy-religion.org/perennial/index.htm


The philosophia perennis or Perennial Philosophy affirms that a direct insight into the nature of Reality is a universally human possibility -- whether it be gained after practice of spiritual disciplines and study of scriptures or through a wholly unanticipated illuminating experience of union with God or the Ultimate. A result of such awareness is the confidence that we have devolved from a single Source and the process of spiritual development is completed and perfected in our return to that One.

To call this perennial is to say that such an insight reappears in diverse times and places, not limited to any particular culture, class, or community. In more formal words, this philosophy has been described as


"the metaphysic that recognizes a divine Reality behind the world of things and lives and minds; the psychology that finds in [one] something identical with divine Reality and the ethic that places [one's] final end in the knowledge of the Immanent and Transcendent Ground of all things."

In other words, the term philosophia perennis is intended to describe a philosophy that has been formulated by those who have experienced direct communion with God or the Ultimate. However brief the experience, it transforms the thinking mind of the experiencer, so that they are never the same again. Such revelatory experience, captured however dimly in symbols supplied by human language or by whatever artistic expression, however often repeated through the ages by people of all races, genders, cultures and religious beliefs, open onto the Perennial Philosophy.

More than half a century ago, Aldous Huxley gave this title to an anthology that he edited. In the type of experience central to it, whether called archaic or primordial or mystical, the veil of materiality is rent and mistaken certainties are dispelled.

For the reader, Huxley's anthology may validate and verify that moment in which self-knowledge moves one beyond the felt limitations of "a foul stinking lump of himself," as the classical British text of spiritual instruction, The Cloud of Unknowing, described it. Are such texts of spiritual instruction and the experiences of traditional mystics still of value today? Perennial Philosophy responds with an emphatic Yes!

One way of expressing the central insight of the Perennial Philosophy is with the phrase That Thou Art, taken from the Sanskrit of the ancient Upanishads. The phrase teaches that the immanent eternal self is realized to be one with the Absolute Principle of all existence, and that the true destiny of human beings is to discover this fact for themselves, to find out Who and What they really are. Among the other vivid expressions of this insight are these:

BYAZID OF BISTUM: "I went from God to God, until they cried from me in me, "O Thou I!"

ST. CATHERINE OF GENOA: "My Me is God, nor do I recognize any other except my God Himself."

YUNG-CHIA-TA-SHIH: "The inner Light is beyond praise and blame; like space, it knows no boundaries, yet it is even here, within us, ever retaining its serenity and fullness. It is only when you hunt for it that you lose it. You cannot take hold of it, but equally, you cannot get rid of it."

MEISTER ECKHART: "The more God is in all things, the more He is outside them; the more He is within, the more without. Only the transcendent, the complete other, can be immanent without being changed by the becoming of that in which it dwells."

And what is the That which the Thou can discover itself to be?

RUYSBROECK: "In the Reality unitively known by the mystic ...we can speak no more of any creature but only of one Being... There were we all one before our creation, for this is our super-essence."

ST. BERNARD: "Who is God? I can think of no better answer than He who is. Nothing is more appropriate to the eternity which God is. If you call God good, or great, or blessed or wise, or anything else of this sort, it is included in these words, namely, He is."

How can one attain inner certainty of That?

Perennial Philosophy offers a seemingly paradoxical answer. The obstacle to unitive knowledge of That is obsessive consciousness of being a separate self. Attachment to I, me, or mine excludes unitive knowledge of God.

WILLIAM LAW: "Men are not in hell because God is angry with them . . . they stand in the state of division and separation which by their own motion, they have made for themselves.

ST. JOHN OF THE CROSS: "The soul that is attached to anything, however much good there may be in it, will not arrive at the liberty of divine union . . . held by the bonds of human affections, however slight they may be, we cannot, while they last, make our way to God."

ALDOUS HUXLEY: "We pass from time to eternity when identified with the spirit and pass again from eternity to time when we choose to identify with the body."

What help is available?

PHILO OF ALEXANDRIA: "They are on the way to truth who apprehend God by means of the divine, Light by the Light."

When is it available? Consider the following affirmations:

JOEL GOLDSMITH: "I am in union with the divine Intelligence of the past, the present and the future. No spiritual secret is hidden from me . . . There is this transcendental Being within me which I am and to which I have access forever. . . . That infinite divine Consciousness of God, the Consciousness of the past, and the present and the future, is my consciousness at this moment."

ALDOUS HUXLEY: "We are on a return sweep towards a point corresponding to our starting place in animality, but incommensurably above it. Once more life is lived in the moment. The life now of a being in whom love has cast out fear, vision has taken the place of earthly hope, selflessness has put a stop to the positive egotism of complacent reminiscence and the negative egotism of remorse.

"The present moment is the only aperture through which the soul can pass out of time into eternity, through which grace can pass out of eternity into the soul, and through which love can pass from one soul in time to another soul in time."

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 04:02:37 PM
I can't take Terence Mckenna even as seriously as I can take Robert Graves. I'd choose Graves over Mckenna, because he is a poet and his actual aim is criticism of human civilisation, although he wrote like a magus and his reaction was mostly to academics and poets.

Terence McKenna was just as much of a wordsmith. He was extremely articulate. Most people who are introduced to his ideas usually judge it quite hastily. Perhaps if you heard him distill it, he could probably make more sense than the brief introductory to the hypothesis I've laid out. If you have time, he thoroughly goes into it in the first hour of this lecture here, the following seven hours are a discussion on it.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 04:02:37 PM
Taking that drug would be an interesting experience. That's all.

I'd wager it'd be more than just that. For some people, it entirely changes the direction of their life, and is considered to be the most profound experience of their life. Doesn't matter if you've sky-dived, kayaked, scuba dives, gave birth to children, visited the moon, etc. So, saying that it'd be merely an "interesting experience" is a gross understatement.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 04:02:37 PM
The fact that human perception can be altered fundamentally with a drug, doesn't have any validity on how its general culture evolved which can be explained by evolution in many different levels and phases it went through.

I beg to differ. I agree that it can be explained on many different levels, one level is this aspect that Terence proposed. Terence McKenna's brother actually went on to get multiple PhDs in various fields and is probably one of Terence's greatest critic. So, it's interesting to hear his point-of-view on Terence's ideas, and I'll leave you with a link to a talk where he does this, and you don't have to listen to this entire piece. Simply because you reject the notion doesn't make it untrue, likewise I understand it doesn't make it true, either, but it is a legitimate factor to be considered. I'll leave the link below, but if you do decide to listen to it, I ask if you at least make an effort to listen at least 10 or more minutes through from the point I link at, because I link to a specific spot in the piece, the 43 minute and 28 second mark.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 04:02:37 PM
:exclaim: Are you aware what you claim here defies everything from anthropology, human evolution, to theories of cultural history...everything that is accumulated as a result of the last 500 years?

How so? It's one thing to say that, but you've got to at least explain why you believe that. As far as I can discern, it seems to be quite congruent with "everything accumulated as a result of the last 500 years."

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 04:02:37 PM
:exclaim: Are you aware that you are claiming that we evolved from erectus to sapiens because we were addicted to a drug that altered our brain chemicals fundamentally?

I don't see what exactly what you're challenging here in this exclamation, but yes, I realize that's the claim (with the exception of the addiction portion), and it's not my claim, by the way. It was Terence's concept. I link to a thread that thoroughly goes over this better than your hasty jugdement, because these substances aren't addicting. The fact that you'd say that means that you don't understand the hypothesis. I'd recommend that thread, because there's links there that you could find that goes over this stuff quite thoroughly. The link I left initially in this post is helpful, too, but I truly doubt you'd listen through to the hour in which Terence distills his concept quite meticulously judging by you've met with it thus far.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 04:02:37 PM
OK. at this point it will sound lame, but are you high?

No, like I said, psychedelics aren't an addicting substance, and "high" is usually associated with the use of cannabis. The height of the psychedelic experience is usually referred to differently. Sure, you might some say "trip" or even "tripping balls," but if you take a Terence McKenna-recommended dose you're going beyond the "tripping balls" point, then the phenomenon you're attempting to induce is more contemporarily known as "ego death." There's something to Google.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:21:06 PM
Even if they are suppose to be archetypes they are still subjective experiences and not objective experiences. also, phycology and psychiatry are not science accept for neurology, and even that is open to speculation. Everything you talk about can be done by stimulating the brain, which is an objective object, but the experience is still a subjective one. You are using word gymnastics and the fallacy of Non sequitur which not logical. There are no connections between those experiences and the past or objective reality accept the human brain. Are you a Deepak Chopra fan? Solitary

I'm not a Deepak Chopra fan. Never read anything of the guy, but you misconstrued my response. Yes, it is a subjective experience, but the experiential content within the subjective experience has this impression of being universal in that there are common motifs and themes within the experience. Dr. Rick Strassman, in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," actually intravenously dosed volunteers with pure N,N-DMT. Lo and behold, when question closely after their experience, each of them had overlapping metaphors to describe their experience. A lot of people used the phrases "fourth dimensional" or "beyond dimensionality." Also, I mentioned that fractals are a common motif in this experience, of course, most people aren't aware of the notion of fractals, and so they might opt for other synonymous concepts as in kaleidoscopic, mandalic, geometric patterns, etc. So, if you're accusing me of verbal gymanstics of the sort you've described, then I apologize for any ambiguity here because you've misconstrued what I've said. I'll stick around the forum, because I really do enjoy the feedback and I hope we can continue to have this exchange as clearly as possible to avoid any further miscommunication.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 01:36:52 PM
The evidence is at the very beginning of the second post. I did try and make this succinct, but unfortunately, this is as succinct as I could make it. I apologize for its lengthiness, but I assure you, each paragraph makes a valid point.

OK, then let's take a look at the first paragraph of the second post, shall we?

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
If you want a physiological explanation as to what may be going on, Dr. Rick Strassman (http://www.answers.com/search?q=Dr.+Rick+Strassman) speculates in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" that this colossal transformation in consciousness may be the result of an natural induction of endogenous N,N-DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (http://www.answers.com/topic/dimethyltryptamine)).

Speculations and "maybe" aren't either evidence or facts.

QuoteMost atheists here might be familiar with DMT, but if you're not, I'll briefly go into some details about it. N,N-DMT is a naturally occurring neurotransmitter that is elaborated in the pineal gland also called the "third eye" gland.

Bold, unproven assertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Endogenous_DMT). So far, neither evidence nor facts.

QuoteIt's now known that concentrations of DMT spike during the REM stage of sleep

Source?

Quoteand also during a NDE (near-death experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience)),

Nope, just a conjecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Conjecture). No facts or evidence yet.

Quoteso DMT may account for the "white light (http://www.answers.com/topic/luminous-phenomena)" or the "I saw my life flash before my eyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_review)" phenomena.

"May". Where's the fucking evidence?

QuoteNow, another detail that must be emphasized is that DMT is also considered the world's most powerful entheogen known to exist in nature. Even more powerful than LSD, salvia, psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, or PCP is DMT

Wrong, there are more powerful ones. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Physical_and_chemical_properties) Quite short on facts, aren't we?

Quoteand there it is right behind your eyebrows.

See above. Unsupported speculation.

QuoteDMT is also a schedule I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act#Schedule_I_controlled_substances) illegal substance in the U.S. and also highly illegal in most countries

Finally a factual statement. It doesn't help your case, though.

Quotedespite the fact that it occurs naturally within the human brain.

Look above. Unsupported assumption.

I have been in surgery seven times and my ego was dead, as well as my consciousness, and there was nothing, and I was a nothing, and only my body existed. I've also had OB's while meditating, and in major stress situations, which are experiences that my brain produces, there is nothing spiritual about them at all.  :doh: :blahblah: Solitary

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 04:39:56 PM
I'm not a Deepak Chopra fan. Never read anything of the guy, but you misconstrued my response. Yes, it is a subjective experience, but the experiential content within the subjective experience has this impression of being universal in that there are common motifs and themes within the experience. Dr. Rick Strassman, in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," actually intravenously dosed volunteers with pure N,N-DMT. Lo and behold, when question closely after their experience, each of them had overlapping metaphors to describe their experience. A lot of people used the phrases "fourth dimensional" or "beyond
dimensionality." Also, I mentioned that fractals are a common motif in this experience, of course, most people aren't aware of the notion of fractals, and so they might opt for other synonymous concepts as in kaleidoscopic, mandalic, geometric patterns, etc. So, if you're accusing me of verbal gymanstics of the sort you've described, then I apologize for any ambiguity here because you've misconstrued what I've said. I'll stick around the forum, because I really do enjoy the feedback and I hope we can continue to have this exchange as clearly as possible to avoid any further miscommunication.

I never misconstrued what you said, we have all evolved the same brain structure that produces the same effects, it's not rocket science to figure out why people all have the same experiences.  I even had religious experiences in my life, but I am not fooled into thinking they are more than my brain creating them. We all have our delusions, but some of us realized what they are: ignorance, not knowledge.
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/delusion.shtml

Delusions And Mental Illness
By Rusty Rockets
We have entered an age where vast numbers of people are moving away from scientific explanations and putting all their energies into believing alternative viewpoints, such as Intelligent Design (ID). The ID movement is so strong that it is slowly being introduced into schools around the globe and given equal weight with the teaching of evolution. The manner that ID is being sold as an alternative to evolution seems to be exploiting a fundamental attribute characteristic of humans: belief creation. But just how do we form our beliefs, and how do we know if a belief that we hold is wrong?
One way that researchers are currently exploring this area is by looking at people who suffer from various mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, where delusions experienced by patients are believed to be true. By taking such an approach, medical researchers can determine whether the belief that a person holds meets the criteria of a delusion. Of additional interest is the fact that some of this research takes in other scientific and philosophical disciplines in an effort to answer some very fundamental questions.
Mental illness is defined as a condition that causes serious abnormality in a person's thinking or behavior. From what is known of the brain, it seems that mental illness is caused either by direct physical damage to the brain itself, or a number of psychological disorders that have developed for one reason or another over time. In the past, these differences have distinguished the fields of study involving the brain and cognition. Traditionally, psychiatry, psychology and other disciplines have played an important role in understanding how the mind functions, while neuroscience has mapped and observed how different areas of the brain interact.

In the past, philosophy of mind has not been considered a serious option in regard to the diagnosis and observation of mental illness. But the inclusion of philosophy is becoming more common as psychiatry, psychology and neuroscience advance. The advancement and convergence of the various brain sciences demonstrates how difficult it is to reconcile the physical and psychological processes of the brain, and that the evidence currently available is far from adequate in answering many of the big questions about the brain, such as delusions in the mentally ill.

A rudimentary explanation of delusions is that people strongly believe something to be true in the face of evidence to the contrary, giving rise to false beliefs. These false beliefs can originate in many ways, but more usually they arise because someone may misinterpret another's actions or misread their intentions. But how do we know that these closely held beliefs are actually false? Before discussing that aspect, it might be useful to look at some more obvious examples. Having a "phantom" limb is a condition where a person believes that they can still "feel" a limb long after it has been amputated.

The Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, Professor Vilayanur Ramachandran, even refers to cases where it is not uncommon for amputees to believe that their phantom limb waves, picks things up and feels pain. This suggests that limbs are "wired" to other networks within the brain, so that in the case of an amputee the brain continues to register the limb as still present. Ramachandran explains that these sensations are a result of an exact representational "map" of the body, known as the Penfield Homunculus, telling the brain how the body is constructed. The phantom limb comes from the Penfield Homunculus not having had time to readjust after a limb has been removed.

Though the above example does not constitute a mental illness as such, it does raise questions of how much autonomy is present in any person's mind over what we can say we think about. It does seem that much of our thinking relies on "hardwired" neural networks that continue to function long after they have outlived their usefulness. This is probably somewhat true of the way that we hold our own beliefs on cultural phenomenon like religion. This becomes easier to notice when the belief system of a person begins to override or take control of a person's mind, which manifests as a mental illness.

Schizophrenic people are just one of many examples where visions and the irrational behavior that they may provoke are something that they find nigh on impossible to control. "Unlike normal people, the schizophrenic can't tell the difference between their own internally-generated images and thoughts versus perceptions that are evoked by real things outside," says Ramachandran. Bill Fulford, Professor of Philosophy and Mental Health in the Department of Philosophy, University of Warwick, says that a: "schizophrenic patient may be well aware that their experience is odd." Unlike the person with the phantom limb, however, it is considerably more difficult, if not impossible, for the schizophrenic to independently verify that they are actually experiencing a delusion, especially if a certain level of paranoia accompanies the delusion.

Solitary

Ommmm..ommmmm..ommmmm.. OK.. I'm enlightened. Time to get drunk.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 04:39:56 PM
I'm not a Deepak Chopra fan. Never read anything of the guy, but you misconstrued my response. Yes, it is a subjective experience, but the experiential content within the subjective experience has this impression of being universal in that there are common motifs and themes within the experience. Dr. Rick Strassman, in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," actually intravenously dosed volunteers with pure N,N-DMT. Lo and behold, when question closely after their experience, each of them had overlapping metaphors to describe their experience. A lot of people used the phrases "fourth dimensional" or "beyond dimensionality." Also, I mentioned that fractals are a common motif in this experience, of course, most people aren't aware of the notion of fractals, and so they might opt for other synonymous concepts as in kaleidoscopic, mandalic, geometric patterns, etc. So, if you're accusing me of verbal gymanstics of the sort you've described, then I apologize for any ambiguity here because you've misconstrued what I've said. I'll stick around the forum, because I really do enjoy the feedback and I hope we can continue to have this exchange as clearly as possible to avoid any further miscommunication.

I agree with Solitary- I would be surprised if there were not similarities. People have the same basic neural structure and when you introduce a psychoactive substance many people are going to have similar reactions. Why should I believe the experience you are describing, this transcendent sensation with universal themes, is an accurate assessment of consciousness and the universe and not just a neurological reaction with common elements because all human brains are basically similar? Having not had this experience myself, why should I believe your interpretation of this experience? Is it more rational for me to believe that you and others have unlocked a special perception of reality or that human brains experience these sensations when exposed to certain chemicals and/or stimuli?

Quote from: DunkleSeele on July 03, 2014, 04:43:44 PM

Source?
Nope, just a conjecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Conjecture). No facts or evidence yet.

It's not speculation anymore. It was recently discovered (http://psychedelicfrontier.com/dmt-found-pineal-glands-live-rats/) that N,N-Dimethyltryptamine is elaborated in the pineal gland of rats. I think it would be an uphill battle to say that it's not, too, elaborated in the human body given the evidence. It has concentrations in the liver, lungs, and other areas of the body. The only thing that had been speculated for a while is where it was coming from. You also wanted the source for REM, I recently had my web browser wiped, and lost all my bookmarks, unfortunately, but I do recall a comment here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZgxiPDV244&t=1h08m40s) where Terence says the source of the study that was done in REM. If you give me time, I will find you the link to the study. When I said "may" account for the NDE phenomena, I meant precisely that. It's a very powerful speculation because high concentrations are found in cerebral spinal fluid. The speculation is as the dying brain is reaching for its last gasp for oxygen, it draws from oxygen stored in cerebral spinal fluid where you've been storing DMT throughout your life, and so the near-death experience becomes this colossal DMT experience.

So, I would NOT say that the notion of DMT being produced in the human body is an unsupported assumption. The constituents necessary to make DMT all are found in the pineal gland. DMT is two enzymatic steps away from trytophan.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
What's up with all these New Agers trying to prove God exists because of subjective experience that don't prove anything about reality. This is still religious BS in a new wrapper. This is why I don't like philosophy like I did when younger. It is why Einstein was correct after showing that his theories were tested in objective reality. The mathematics of quantum mechanics works even if it isn't understood, but to translate this not understanding, which is ignorance, therefore God did it, is disingenuous at best.  :wall: Solitary

You're missing the point here. This is not an argument for the existence of God, and the fact that you think it is means you've foully misinterpret what Perennial Philosophy is.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
The philosophia perennis or Perennial Philosophy affirms that a direct insight into the nature of Reality is a universally human possibility -- whether it be gained after practice of spiritual disciplines and study of scriptures or through a wholly unanticipated illuminating experience of union with God or the Ultimate. A result of such awareness is the confidence that we have devolved from a single Source and the process of spiritual development is completed and perfected in our return to that One.

Yes, that is the crux.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
And what is the That which the Thou can discover itself to be?

Well, to put it in Hindu terms, that art thou means you are the Brahman. Of course, this experience has only been discussed throughout the centuries in a religious context. It's only until recently that this phenomenon has taken more contemporary names that disassociate itself from religion, such as Richard M. Bucke's "Cosmic consciousness" or the term "ego death." Here's a talk by Alan Watts that goes into this topic a bit.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
How can one attain inner certainty of That?

How else? By having the experience, of course. I mean, nothing will convince you short of having the experience itself, and that is because we're, as I pointed out in the OP, intellectually set-up to doubt this. It's a phenomenon in consciousness which most people, atheists and theists alike, do not realize exists.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
Perennial Philosophy offers a seemingly paradoxical answer. The obstacle to unitive knowledge of That is obsessive consciousness of being a separate self. Attachment to I, me, or mine excludes unitive knowledge of God.

Well, this is why it's called "ego death." I don't necessarily see the paradox here. Perhaps you should elaborate on this one.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
What help is available?

What help is availble... to have this experience? If that's the question, then obviously it's the shamanic tools that have been left for us if one can simply avail themselves to them.

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:29:26 PM
When is it available? Consider the following affirmations:

JOEL GOLDSMITH: "I am in union with the divine Intelligence of the past, the present and the future. No spiritual secret is hidden from me . . . There is this transcendental Being within me which I am and to which I have access forever. . . . That infinite divine Consciousness of God, the Consciousness of the past, and the present and the future, is my consciousness at this moment."

ALDOUS HUXLEY: "We are on a return sweep towards a point corresponding to our starting place in animality, but incommensurably above it. Once more life is lived in the moment. The life now of a being in whom love has cast out fear, vision has taken the place of earthly hope, selflessness has put a stop to the positive egotism of complacent reminiscence and the negative egotism of remorse.

"The present moment is the only aperture through which the soul can pass out of time into eternity, through which grace can pass out of eternity into the soul, and through which love can pass from one soul in time to another soul in time."

It's always available, and there's many paths to it, but if you truly wish to have an avenue to speak from about this, then having the experience for yourself would do that.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 03, 2014, 04:59:05 PM
Why did NOT any of Mckenna's hypothesis' take place in mainstream? Why isn't he included in human evolution and taught in universities?

Why didn't any scientist work on his hypothesis? Why he is the only one who to notice this factor, among all these anthropologists, evolutionary scientists? 

Why is his work considered as pseudoscience?

You know, that link I left where Dennis McKenna gives his criticism on this, he answers all of these questions. I mean, if you're truly interested, I'd listen to that one in particular. Terence did teach this view at The Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California. The lecture was entitled "Plants, Consciousness, and Transformation," which I linked you to. Within the first hour of that audio tape, he thoroughly distills the "Stoned Ape Hypothesis."

Quote from: Solitary on July 03, 2014, 04:52:39 PM
I never misconstrued what you said, we have all evolved the same brain structure that produces the same effects, it's not rocket science to figure out why people all have the same experiences.  I even had religious experiences in my life, but I am not fooled into thinking they are more than my brain creating them. We all have our delusions, but some of us realized what they are: ignorance, not knowledge.

This is precisely a misconstruing of what I've said. Did you read the portion where I use the analogy of the tv in my OP? I think that would be better to describe this phenomenon than an article on delusion. I'm not talking about delusions. I appreciate the feedback and I want to make it quite clear as to what I'm talking about.

Yes, I even say in the OP that it may be the mind, I never deny this point. But what I add is the mind lit up to such a degree that the informational content becomes seemingly incomprehensible, and it's this seeming incomprehensibility that throughout the ages has been interpreted as "God," "Brahman," "the soul," "Allah," "nirvana," "satori," "samadhi," and more contemporarily as "ego death" and "Cosmic consciousness." I'd really appreciate it if people read the full post before skimming through and responding, but I guess I'm going to have to settle for people just jumping through it.

All of these walls of text are making me(a PhD in history) go:

(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/876172544/hCCA26DC6/)


The honest question I have for the OP is thus:
What the hell is your point?

Perennial sounds too much like perineum for me to take seriously anyway.

Oh, if y'all don't know what a perineum is, it's everything between a pussy and an asshole.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on July 03, 2014, 05:10:16 PM
I agree with Solitary- I would be surprised if there were not similarities. People have the same basic neural structure and when you introduce a psychoactive substance many people are going to have similar reactions. Why should I believe the experience you are describing, this transcendent sensation with universal themes, is an accurate assessment of consciousness and the universe and not just a neurological reaction with common elements because all human brains are basically similar? Having not had this experience myself, why should I believe your interpretation of this experience? Is it more rational for me to believe that you and others have unlocked a special perception of reality or that human brains experience these sensations when exposed to certain chemicals and/or stimuli?

Well, yes, I do believe it's more rational to believe the latter here, and you admit to not having this type of experience. You see, a good example I'd suggest is that of Jason Padgett (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RZV9KbqyRA). Here's a guy who was some regular joe until he had a brain injury that caused his brain to overcompensate in areas that are usually dormant in most people. As a result of this, he became a mathematical prodigy with the ability to visually see fractals in every direction. This experience, as I mentioned, will induce this. This is why so many people report the kaleidoscopes, the mandalas, the geometric patterns; that's because they are referring to fractals. Even Jason took a while to realize that the geometric patterns he was, in fact, witnessing are fractals.

While it's true that this experience is inducing the effect on a similar substrate we all possess, i.e. the brain, that in no way is a reduction of this experience. Imagine if you underwent an experience in which all neural pathways in your brain were lit up. You'd have an impression of a panesthesia, an impression that you were undergoing all experience at once. I'll quote Terence to give a metaphor:

QuoteI don’t think you could discover consciousness if you didn’t perturb it, because as Marshall McClune said, “whoever discovered water, it certainly wasn’t a fish”. Well, we are fish swimming in consciousness; and yet we know it’s there. Well, the reason we know it’s there is because if you perturb it, then you see it; and you perturb it by perturbing the engine which generates it, which is the mind/brain system resting behind your eyebrows. If you swap out the ordinary chemicals that are running that system in an invisible fashion, then you see: it’s like dropping ink into a bowl of clear water â€" suddenly the convection currents operating in the clear water become visible, because you see the particles of ink tracing out the previously invisible dynamics of the standing water. The mind is precisely like that, and the psychedelic is like a dye-marker being dropped into this aqueous system. And then you say, “Oh, I see â€" it works like this… and like this.” - Terence McKenna

Undergoing such an experience is quite profound. It's not like witnessing a waterfall or a birth or death. It's more like, by metaphor, you've had every experience, heard every song, seen every movie, thought every thought over and over infinite of times. It's a reality-dissolving, catagory-reconstructing, mind-boggling phenomenon that consciousness can undergo, and it's available for you in the here and now. And it's this experience, I believe, that people have been having over millennia which have laid the very basis of such notions as the divine or the soul, etc.

Quote from: Moralnihilist on July 03, 2014, 07:13:08 PM
The honest question I have for the OP is thus:
What the hell is your point?

Well, in a nutshell, it's that there is a phenomenon in consciousness that most people, atheists and theists alike, have not experienced, and, in fact, do not even realize exists. Religion is a kind of byproduct of this phenomenon. In other words, the founders of the major religions who've undergone this experience, i.e. Muhammad, Christ, Gautama, etc. were simply mortal men, as human as you and I, who've sometime in their lifetime had this colossal experience of "ego death," and when they went on to discuss their experiences, each became the founder of a religion. That's the point in a nutshell. Of course, if you actually take the time to read the OP, you'll find the evidence I present about this point-of-view. I'd really appreciate if you take the time to read it, and welcome any feedback on it.

Quote from: Moralnihilist on July 03, 2014, 07:13:08 PM
The honest question I have for the OP is thus:
What the hell is your point?

I think the real question is:

How often do you crap and fart?

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 06:29:24 PM
It's not speculation anymore. It was recently discovered (http://psychedelicfrontier.com/dmt-found-pineal-glands-live-rats/) that N,N-Dimethyltryptamine is elaborated in the pineal gland of rats. I think it would be an uphill battle to say that it's not, too, elaborated in the human body given the evidence. It has concentrations in the liver, lungs, and other areas of the body. The only thing that had been speculated for a while is where it was coming from. You also wanted the source for REM, I recently had my web browser wiped, and lost all my bookmarks, unfortunately, but I do recall a comment here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZgxiPDV244&t=1h08m40s) where Terence says the source of the study that was done in REM. If you give me time, I will find you the link to the study. When I said "may" account for the NDE phenomena, I meant precisely that. It's a very powerful speculation because high concentrations are found in cerebral spinal fluid. The speculation is as the dying brain is reaching for its last gasp for oxygen, it draws from oxygen stored in cerebral spinal fluid where you've been storing DMT throughout your life, and so the neat-death experience becomes this colossal DMT experience.

So, I would NOT say that the notion of DMT being produced in the human body is an unsupported assumption. The constituents necessary to make DMT all are found in the pineal gland. DMT is two enzymatic steps away from trytophan.

You've been here before haven't you?

Edit: Ya I remember you, or someone sockpuppeting your argument.

So ya, your entire argument is complete bullshit. If you had actually read the paper "Biosynthesis of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a melanoma cell line and its metabolization by peroxidases", you would have read that DMT is only one of many trace amines found in the human body, it's metabolized by monoamine oxidase A to make 3-indoleacetic acid. 3-indoleacetic acid is a common primary metabolite in the tryptophan metabolic pathway found here:

(http://hultgren.wustl.edu/UTI89/map-nolabel/map00380.gif)

The concentration of DMT in the brain isn't even close to breaking the threshold dose, so no woo for you.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 10:09:43 PM
Well, in a nutshell, it's that there is a phenomenon in consciousness that most people, atheists and theists alike, have not experienced, and, in fact, do not even realize exists. Religion is a kind of byproduct of this phenomenon. In other words, the founders of the major religions who've undergone this experience, i.e. Muhammad, Christ, Gautama, etc. were simply mortal men, as human as you and I, who've sometime in their lifetime had this colossal experience of "ego death," and when they went on to discuss their experiences, each became the founder of a religion. That's the point in a nutshell. Of course, if you actually take the time to read the OP, you'll find the evidence I present about this point-of-view. I'd really appreciate if you take the time to read it, and welcome any feedback on it.

Gautama (Buddha) never had this or claimed divine intervention. This is BS from the Hindu religious that have made him a god, and the various schools of Buddhism that have been influenced by other religions. He never prayed, or believed in a God. He never even had any rituals to practice. He only had suggestions to live a better life. He thought about life and suffering in reality, not superstitious nonsense. It's also debatable that Buddhism is even a religion. By the common definition it is not, just like atheism is not. Without people, a God, or gods, there is no religion. Solitary

Quote from: Icarus on July 03, 2014, 11:00:25 PM
You've been here before haven't you?
The concentration of DMT in the brain isn't even close to breaking the threshold dose, so no woo for you.

No, I haven't been here before, and your information is out-dated. As I stated before, a 2013 study found DMT in microdialysate obtained from a rat's pineal gland, providing evidence of endogenous DMT in the mammalian brain with concentrations reaching that of a possible threshold dose. It doesn't require much DMT to actually be propelled into these colossal altered states, you know.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 04, 2014, 05:05:37 AM
Stop telling me what lecture I should read. Dennis Mckenna doesn't count. You don't count. I don't count.
WHY DO ALL SCIENTISTS IN THE FIELD SEE HIS WORK AS PSEUDOSCIENCE?

Well, this is a close-minded response. Why wouldn't Dennis McKenna count? He's got multiple PhDs in various fields, and meets these concepts with great criticism and has legitimate details to point out. Not all scientists believe Terence's concept is pseudoscience. If you'd simply refer to the link, perhaps you'd see why.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 04, 2014, 02:24:50 PM
Close minded. Yeah that must be it. Among all of those scientists from many different countries dedicating their lives to solve human evolution are just closed minded to some great explanation.
Let's see those scientist. Link.

If you really want to put it to the test, try and understand the theory first. I link to the 43m and 28s mark here. Dennis discusses the concept in a way that might shed some light of how this is a possible factor that is overlooked by most evolutionary biologists and scientists. I'm quite sure not all scientists believe it to be pseudoscience. You want me to link you to some scientists that don't believe so? Where's your statistical data or your link showing that all scientists do? All I ask is if you meet this with a little bit more open-mindedness than you've had so far, and just listen through a bit into the link I left above this paragraph.

Quote from: Solitary on July 04, 2014, 11:22:46 AM
Gautama (Buddha) never had this or claimed divine intervention. This is BS from the Hindu religious that have made him a god, and the various schools of Buddhism that have been influenced by other religions. He never prayed, or believed in a God. He never even had any rituals to practice. He only had suggestions to live a better life. He thought about life and suffering in reality, not superstitious nonsense. It's also debatable that Buddhism is even a religion. By the common definition it is not, just like atheism is not. Without people, a God, or gods, there is no religion. Solitary

I've already answered this in the OP. I have the impression based on the feedback so far that no one has actually taken the time to read through the post. It seems as though the accumulation of responses that I've gotten here have been by those who most likely skimmed through the post, perhaps other people's responses to it, etc. No one seems to be replying as though they understand, and it's because they're basing their judgement on other people's summaries in their posts when they, too, skimmed through the OP.

I don't really have a problem. I do realize it's quite long, but obviously the people in this particular forum do not like reading beyond five or so paragraphs. I admit, my post is probably five or so screens, but it's not tediously and overwhelmingly long.

Quote from: Kafei on July 04, 2014, 02:13:31 PM
No, I haven't been here before, and your information is out-dated. As I stated before, a 2013 study found DMT in microdialysate obtained from a rat's pineal gland, providing evidence of endogenous DMT in the mammalian brain with concentrations reaching that of a possible threshold dose. It doesn't require much DMT to actually be propelled into these colossal altered states, you know.

What? The paper I cited was published in 2014. Sockpuppet.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 06:29:24 PM
It's not speculation anymore. It was recently discovered (http://psychedelicfrontier.com/dmt-found-pineal-glands-live-rats/) that N,N-Dimethyltryptamine is elaborated in the pineal gland of rats. I think it would be an uphill battle to say that it's not, too, elaborated in the human body given the evidence.

Bollocks. The fact that traces of DMT have been found in rats' pineal glands doesn't tell us anything about the human body, plain and simple.

QuoteIt has concentrations in the liver, lungs, and other areas of the body. The only thing that had been speculated for a while is where it was coming from. You also wanted the source for REM, I recently had my web browser wiped, and lost all my bookmarks, unfortunately, but I do recall a comment here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZgxiPDV244&t=1h08m40s) where Terence says the source of the study that was done in REM. If you give me time, I will find you the link to the study. When I said "may" account for the NDE phenomena, I meant precisely that. It's a very powerful speculation because high concentrations are found in cerebral spinal fluid. The speculation is as the dying brain is reaching for its last gasp for oxygen, it draws from oxygen stored in cerebral spinal fluid where you've been storing DMT throughout your life, and so the neat-death experience becomes this colossal DMT experience.

So, I would NOT say that the notion of DMT being produced in the human body is an unsupported assumption. The constituents necessary to make DMT all are found in the pineal gland. DMT is two enzymatic steps away from trytophan.

It is an unsupported assumption, until it's effectively found out that the pineal gland in humans produces it. Simple as that.

I also love how you skipped my other points. As I said, zero facts and evidence. In fact, your theory is built exactly like every other new-agist bullshit cult:
1. Make wild assumptions and pass them as scientific facts.
2. Produce walls of regurgitated alphabet soup just to give the impression that your theories are really, really well thought out and profound.
3. Post a couple of videos/articles/books by some fruitcake "supporting" your claims and claim the authors are worldwide recognised authorities.
4. Fill each and every wall of word salad with terms like "mystical", "transcendental", "uniqueness", etc.
5. Throw in a few made-up references to Jesus/Muhammad/Buddha/etc, asserting that they really, really, really did what you claim.

Et voila, mesdames et messieurs, you have a new-age cult!

Now tell me Kafei, when are you going to sell DVDs and books?

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 01:42:04 PM
Because I start out here saying that the "God of LSD" is not what this is about.

I got bored and stopped reading before I got that far.

Quote from: DunkleSeele on July 04, 2014, 05:16:15 PM
Bollocks. The fact that traces of DMT have been found in rats' pineal glands doesn't tell us anything about the human body, plain and simple.It is an unsupported assumption, until it's effectively found out that the pineal gland in humans produces it. Simple as that.

Even peer-review has to follow a certain politics, and the reason why there isn't any studies done on humans is because this is a schedule I illegal substance in the U.S. and also highly illegal in most other countries. That's why the permission was for use on rodents. You simply showed me a chart on tryptophan metabolism. I'm not sure how this counters the notion I'm talking about. I don't see how this is an unfounded speculation. Given the evidence, it's now just a matter of time before they confirm it for pineal gland in human beings. It was found to be produced in the pineal gland of rats in significant amounts. It's very likely that the human pineal gland, too, produces DMT. Why is this such an issue? We know it's produced in the body, there's traces of it in the liver, in the lungs, in cerebral spinal fluid, etc. Why are you so resistant to the possibility of the pineal gland containing DMT? Is it simply because the pineal gland has always been associated with the "third eye," the "ajna chakra," the "seat of the soul"?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 05, 2014, 09:59:49 AM
Now from his words why he pursued this study:

Basically, he was high and thought it could be a good thing to make a study of it. He also saw the 2012 Apocalypse in I CHING Cards under its influence.

I'm assuming you've quoted Wiki. Well, it's somewhat obscure there, because Fischer did work with light doses approaching mid-range doses. But even if you argue against the "visual acuity" portion of Terence's rap, there's other factors that are more potent in the hypothesis. Do you think our hungry ancestral apes would have stopped to a light to mid-range dose? Of course not! I'm guessing you never took the time to listen to Dennis at all. It's a very legitimate factor, psilocybin, after all, is a neurotransmitter that has a lock-and-key fit to our serotonergic receptor sites. There's a slew of archaeological evidence and historical evidence for mushroom use going back millennia. Terence McKenna, in fact, majored in Art History when he did attend school. If you'd simply go back and check out the link, maybe you'd gain a better perspective on this. I link to a separate area in the link below, but it may be better to refer back to the original link I sent you because it's the spot where they really go over it.

Quote from: Solitary on July 04, 2014, 11:22:46 AM
Gautama (Buddha) never had this or claimed divine intervention. This is BS from the Hindu religious that have made him a god, and the various schools of Buddhism that have been influenced by other religions. He never prayed, or believed in a God. He never even had any rituals to practice. He only had suggestions to live a better life. He thought about life and suffering in reality, not superstitious nonsense. It's also debatable that Buddhism is even a religion. By the common definition it is not, just like atheism is not. Without people, a God, or gods, there is no religion. Solitary

I think you're missing the point. My opinion is that Gautama was simply another human being who'd undergone this phenomenon in consciousness. I believe religions like Hinduism and Buddhism have surrounded themselves around this phenomenon. Hindus had always used ascetic means, but Gautama came along and realized all that was unnecessary, and so meditation as the relinquishing of volition became the discipline of the eight-fold path. I'm not talking about God, but instead a very God-like state of consciousness which Hindus referred to as "savikalpa samadhi" or simply "samadhi," Buddhists refer to it as "nirvana," but more contemporarily I believe "ego death" has become the preferred name for this phenomenon. There's also "Cosmic consciousness" which was used by Richard M. Bucke. Bucke also believed in a possible perennial philosophy, he goes into the experiences of historical figures in his magnum opus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Maurice_Bucke#Magnum_opus).

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 05, 2014, 11:07:14 AM
I got bored and stopped reading before I got that far.

Don't worry. I don't think anyone here at this particular forum reads long posts. Either everyone has ADD or we've really shifted over to a visual/audio culture from the print culture that Marshall McLuhan wrote about. So far, many of the replies I've had were questions that could've had been answered if the person had simply read the OP in its entirety.

Quote from: Kafei on July 05, 2014, 11:49:52 PM
Don't worry. I don't think anyone here at this particular forum reads long posts. Either everyone has ADD or we've really shifted over to a visual/audio culture from the print culture that Marshall McLuhan wrote about. So far, many of the replies I've had were questions that could've had been answered if the person had simply read the OP in its entirety.

Being full of shit usually has a profound effect on the attention span of people reading what you have to say. Why haven't you read the 2014 study "Biosynthesis of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a melanoma cell line and its metabolization by peroxidases" published in Biochemical Pharmacology?

Quote from: Icarus on July 06, 2014, 12:49:50 AM
Being full of shit usually has a profound effect on the attention span of people reading what you have to say. Why haven't you read the 2014 study "Biosynthesis of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a melanoma cell line and its metabolization by peroxidases" published in Biochemical Pharmacology?

I have read that. I'm not sure how it counters what I'm talking about. We may not know completely the mechanisms for these type of experiences. DMT may play a role, it may not. I happen to believe it does if it is possible to induce it naturally. There may be a natural route to this experience, but it's also possible that the founders of the major religion may have taken a shamanic path to it. For instance, "soma" in Hinduism is often associated with the psychedelic mushroom, likewise "The Last Supper" of the Buddha is also heavily speculated to have been psychedelic mushrooms. Not to mention many other examples as in "The Tree of Life" of Egyptian mythology has recently been identified as the Acacia nilotica which is rich in DMT, The Elusinian mysteries of ancient Greek times has been thought to be an ergotized beer which would induce an LSD-like experience, Muhammad shivering and fasting in the cave is an example of an ascetic path to inducing this type of experience, and many other examples where these states of mind are intertwined with the origin of these religions.

Another thing I'd like to add, I wish I could give you a link to the point in a talk where Terence mentions this, but I remember hearing a talk by Terence McKenna where he claimed he had a dream where he was handed a pipe filled with DMT, smoked it inside the dream, and had a full-on, very vivid re-experience of the DMT flash he'd see at the height of an actual DMT experience. If this is true, then this is a perfect proof that the brain is very capable of producing these experiences on-the-natch. I don't believe anything about this is "woo" or pseudoscientific, but a tried-and-true phenomenon we all seem to have the potential for. I'm not sure if you've read the post, judging by your most recent comment, I'm going to have to wager not, but you'll find that I'm not arguing for "woo" or the "supernatural," but a logical and neuroscientific way of explaining such phenomena.

Quote from: Kafei on July 05, 2014, 11:27:12 PM
Even peer-review has to follow a certain politics, and the reason why there isn't any studies done on humans is because this is a schedule I illegal substance in the U.S. and also highly illegal in most other countries. That's why the permission was for use on rodents. You simply showed me a chart on tryptophan metabolism. I'm not sure how this counters the notion I'm talking about. I don't see how this is an unfounded speculation. Given the evidence, it's now just a matter of time before they confirm it for pineal gland in human beings. It was found to be produced in the pineal gland of rats in significant amounts. It's very likely that the human pineal gland, too, produces DMT. Why is this such an issue? We know it's produced in the body, there's traces of it in the liver, in the lungs, in cerebral spinal fluid, etc. Why are you so resistant to the possibility of the pineal gland containing DMT? Is it simply because the pineal gland has always been associated with the "third eye," the "ajna chakra," the "seat of the soul"?

Dennis McKenna on Endogenous DMT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72P_9jmrOVI&t=37m15s)

First of all, it wasn't me posting that chart. Get your facts right.
Second, you really don't get the point, do you? DMT being produced by the human pineal gland is, so far and at best, an unsupported hypothesis, but you try to to pass it as fact. This is the same old, intellectually dishonest tactic used by all woo peddlers like you. We've seen it hundreds of times, and we're not impressed.

QuoteI'm assuming you've quoted Wiki. Well, it's somewhat obscure there, because Fischer did work with light doses approaching mid-range doses. But even if you argue against the "visual acuity" portion of Terence's rap, there's other factors that are more potent in the hypothesis. Do you think our hungry ancestral apes would have stopped to a light to mid-range dose? Of course not! I'm guessing you never took the time to listen to Dennis at all. It's a very legitimate factor, psilocybin, after all, is a neurotransmitter that has a lock-and-key fit to our serotonergic receptor sites. There's a slew of archaeological evidence and historical evidence for mushroom use going back millennia. Terence McKenna, in fact, majored in Art History when he did attend school. If you'd simply go back and check out the link, maybe you'd gain a better perspective on this. I link to a separate area in the link below, but it may be better to refer back to the original link I sent you because it's the spot where they really go over it.

Dennis McKenna on "Stoned Ape hypothesis" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51PK6Hvaddg&t=57m54s)

And how does that qualify him as an anthropologist? Answer: it doesn't.

Quote from: Kafei on July 05, 2014, 11:49:52 PM
Don't worry. I don't think anyone here at this particular forum reads long posts. Either everyone has ADD or we've really shifted over to a visual/audio culture from the print culture that Marshall McLuhan wrote about. So far, many of the replies I've had were questions that could've had been answered if the person had simply read the OP in its entirety.

Says the one who can't get right who posted what.

Friendly advice: take your condescending attitude and shove it up your ass, followed by a big cactus.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 01:26:32 AM
I have read that. I'm not sure how it counters what I'm talking about. We may not know completely the mechanisms for these type of experiences. DMT may play a role, it may not. I happen to believe it does if it is possible to induce it naturally. There may be a natural route to this experience, but it's also possible that the founders of the major religion may have taken a shamanic path to it. For instance, "soma" in Hinduism is often associated with the psychedelic mushroom, likewise "The Last Supper" of the Buddha is also heavily speculated to have been psychedelic mushrooms. Not to mention many other examples as in "The Tree of Life" of Egyptian mythology has recently been identified as the Acacia nilotica which is rich in DMT, The Elusinian mysteries of ancient Greek times has been thought to be an ergotized beer which would induce an LSD-like experience, Muhammad shivering and fasting in the cave is an example of an ascetic path to inducing this type of experience, and many other examples where these states of mind are intertwined with the origin of these religions.

Another thing I'd like to add, I wish I could give you a link to the point in a talk where Terence mentions this, but I remember hearing a talk by Terence McKenna where he claimed he had a dream where he was handed a pipe filled with DMT, smoked it inside the dream, and had a full-on, very vivid re-experience of the DMT flash he'd see at the height of an actual DMT experience. If this is true, then this is a perfect proof that the brain is very capable of producing these experiences on-the-natch. I don't believe anything about this is "woo" or pseudoscientific, but a tried-and-true phenomenon we all seem to have the potential for. I'm not sure if you've read the post, judging by your most recent comment, I'm going to have to wager not, but you'll find that I'm not arguing for "woo" or the "supernatural," but a logical and neuroscientific way of explaining such phenomena.

LOL is this your evidence? The dreams of a deranged idiot?

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 01:26:32 AM
I have read that. I'm not sure how it counters what I'm talking about. We may not know completely the mechanisms for these type of experiences. DMT may play a role, it may not. I happen to believe it does if it is possible to induce it naturally. There may be a natural route to this experience, but it's also possible that the founders of the major religion may have taken a shamanic path to it. For instance, "soma" in Hinduism is often associated with the psychedelic mushroom, likewise "The Last Supper" of the Buddha is also heavily speculated to have been psychedelic mushrooms. Not to mention many other examples as in "The Tree of Life" of Egyptian mythology has recently been identified as the Acacia nilotica which is rich in DMT, The Elusinian mysteries of ancient Greek times has been thought to be an ergotized beer which would induce an LSD-like experience, Muhammad shivering and fasting in the cave is an example of an ascetic path to inducing this type of experience, and many other examples where these states of mind are intertwined with the origin of these religions.

Another thing I'd like to add, I wish I could give you a link to the point in a talk where Terence mentions this, but I remember hearing a talk by Terence McKenna where he claimed he had a dream where he was handed a pipe filled with DMT, smoked it inside the dream, and had a full-on, very vivid re-experience of the DMT flash he'd see at the height of an actual DMT experience. If this is true, then this is a perfect proof that the brain is very capable of producing these experiences on-the-natch. I don't believe anything about this is "woo" or pseudoscientific, but a tried-and-true phenomenon we all seem to have the potential for. I'm not sure if you've read the post, judging by your most recent comment, I'm going to have to wager not, but you'll find that I'm not arguing for "woo" or the "supernatural," but a logical and neuroscientific way of explaining such phenomena.

Interesting, you said you read it then refuse to counter anything in the paper itself. Since you believe yourself more capable of interpreting evidence than the scientists who collected it you must have a PhD in biochemistry. So I have to ask, what university gave you a PhD and where are you currently teaching/researching? Why do we produce monoamine oxidase A when "according to your woo" we need DMT in high concentrations in the brain (I'm leaving out the fact that you have no idea what the threshold dose of DMT is in the brain). If you do happen to know the threshold dose you can provide it in your response.

I have a feeling you're going to ignore that as you completely ignored my post breaking down the research done and the conclusions arrived at by the researchers. You're only response to that entire thing was "I disagree" with no explanation why other than "I'm smarter than those silly scientists".

I also know you didn't read the paper because I highly doubt you have a subscription to Biochemical Pharmacology, the farthest you would have gotten is the abstract.

I've had a pet theory for years that music was created by a bunch of hunter/gatherers that inadvertently threw some Marijuana into a fire and got stoned, then started beating on rocks with sticks and chanting. Just me. I took Psilocybin once, and all I did was wander in a circle and drool.

My personal belief is that religion was started by a lazy, opportunistic fuck that saw an opportunity when something unexplainable happened, declared himself a seer and came up with a supernatural explanation. He was venerated by the tribe and laid about looking important instead of being out hunting. Pretty much the same today.

Quote from: stromboli on July 06, 2014, 10:24:20 AM
I've had a pet theory for years that music was created by a bunch of hunter/gatherers that inadvertently threw some Marijuana into a fire and got stoned, then started beating on rocks with sticks and chanting. Just me. I took Psilocybin once, and all I did was wander in a circle and drool.

My personal belief is that religion was started by a lazy, opportunistic fuck that saw an opportunity when something unexplainable happened, declared himself a seer and came up with a supernatural explanation. He was venerated by the tribe and laid about looking important instead of being out hunting. Pretty much the same today.

I disagree. I believe the origin of the major religions can find its source in the so-callled "mystical experience" or what's referred to today as the "ego death" experience. In order to elicit this phenomenon with a psychedelic, you must exceed the threshold dose. Terence McKenna recommends for psilocybin-containing mushrooms, for someone who weighs 140lbs, that you take at least five dried grams on an empty stomach. Of course, if you weigh a bit more, you want to go higher. I don't recommend this unless you take the necessary precautions, i.e. the right set and setting, perhaps an individual who is experienced to attend you in this endeavor, etc.

Quote from: Icarus on July 06, 2014, 09:29:15 AM
Interesting, you said you read it then refuse to counter anything in the paper itself. Since you believe yourself more capable of interpreting evidence than the scientists who collected it you must have a PhD in biochemistry. So I have to ask, what university gave you a PhD and where are you currently teaching/researching? Why do we produce monoamine oxidase A when "according to your woo" we need DMT in high concentrations in the brain (I'm leaving out the fact that you have no idea what the threshold dose of DMT is in the brain). If you do happen to know the threshold dose you can provide it in your response.

I have a feeling you're going to ignore that as you completely ignored my post breaking down the research done and the conclusions arrived at by the researchers. You're only response to that entire thing was "I disagree" with no explanation why other than "I'm smarter than those silly scientists".

I also know you didn't read the paper because I highly doubt you have a subscription to Biochemical Pharmacology, the farthest you would have gotten is the abstract.

Well, I've already answered this, we do not know the precise mechanism for this experience. All you're really attempting to dismiss is a natural induction of this experience. The 'natural satori', as Alan Watts would call it, has various explanations. The "God spot" is one explanation, endogenous DMT is another. Like I mentioned before, it's also possible that the founders of the major religions could have been using psychedelics as in the example I gave of "soma" possibly being some sort of psychedelic mushroom.

I'm not saying "I'm smarter than those silly scientists." I've read the full paper. I'm not quite sure the paper you're referring to is evidence of what you're saying. I have to question whether you read it or you simply read the abstract, because your interpretation is off. You're interpreting the paper as though it's saying that one cannot have a DMT experience that is endogenously produced, correct? Well, that's not the case. The paper is merely acknowledging other metabolic pathways for DMT. We all know DMT, when smoked, is a very fact-acting experience lasting only 5 from 15 to 20 minutes at the most. Well, this study is only proving further what we always knew, that the body can quickly metabolize DMT within minutes. If you've read the paper, you'd know that it even mentions the possibility of a endogenously produced DMT experience! Yes, the threshold is there, otherwise I don't think that would be considered. So, what you're telling me is simply absurd.

I'm not quite sure what you have against this idea, but it seems you'll go through any effort to try and knock it down. I don't think it can.

Quote from: DunkleSeele on July 06, 2014, 04:32:55 AM
LOL is this your evidence? The dreams of a deranged idiot?

Dreams are a powerful, immersive experience in and of themselves. I don't think it's a big leap to imagine that these type of experiences can be endogenously produced. I'm not sure why you have a problem with that. There's no evidence that says that one cannot have an endogenously produced experienced.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 10:49:23 AM
Well, I've already answered this, we do not know the precise mechanism for this experience. All you're really attempting to dismiss is a natural induction of this experience. The 'natural satori', as Alan Watts would call it, has various explanations. The "God spot" is one explanation, endogenous DMT is another. Like I mentioned before, it's also possible that the founders of the major religions could have been using psychedelics as in the example I gave of "soma" possibly being some sort of psychedelic mushroom.

I'm not saying "I'm smarter than those silly scientists." I've read the full paper. I'm not quite sure the paper you're referring to is evidence of what you're saying. I have to question whether you read it or you simply read the abstract, because your interpretation is off. You're interpreting the paper as though it's saying that one cannot have a DMT experience that is endogenously produced, correct? Well, that's not the case. The paper is merely acknowledging other metabolic pathways for DMT. We all know DMT, when smoked, is a very fact-acting experience lasting only 5 from 15 to 20 minutes at the most. Well, this study is only proving further what we always knew, that the body can quickly metabolize DMT within minutes. If you've read the paper, you'd know that it even mentions the possibility of a endogenously produced DMT experience! Yes, the threshold is there, otherwise I don't think that would be considered. So, what you're telling me is simply absurd.

I'm not quite sure what you have against this idea, but it seems you'll go through any effort to try and knock it down. I don't think it can.

This is why you are not a scientist, you don't look for connections then try to find data supporting your assumptions, you look at the data and use it to try and find something definitive. You have failed to provide a basis for your hypothesis so it can be dismissed. If you had read the full paper why are you purposefully avoiding talking about the enzyme that metabolizes DMT or the threshold dose of DMT in the brain? You can't simple say "yes, the threshold is there" if you had any education in the scientific disciplines you'd know that is not enough, you actually have to provide a numerical value with research backing it up. "Yes, the threshold is there, otherwise I don't think that would be considered. So, what you're telling me is simply absurd." Here's the problem, no one is considering it other than you. None of the papers you or I have cited even mention the link you are claiming. You've just stated your claim as "the inevitable and logic outcome" without actually providing any evidence.

Quote from: Kafei on July 05, 2014, 11:49:52 PM
Don't worry. I don't think anyone here at this particular forum reads long posts. Either everyone has ADD or we've really shifted over to a visual/audio culture from the print culture that Marshall McLuhan wrote about.

Or maybe your shit is not not very fucking interesting.

Quote from: Icarus on July 06, 2014, 12:12:10 PM
If you had any education in the scientific disciplines you'd know that is not enough, you actually have to provide a numerical value with research backing it up. "Yes, the threshold is there, otherwise I don't think that would be considered. So, what you're telling me is simply absurd." Here's the problem, no one is considering it other than you. None of the papers you or I have cited even mention the link you are claiming. You've just stated your claim as "the inevitable and logic outcome" without actually providing any evidence.

No, the paper itself considers an endogenously produced experienced. I was referring to the 2014 9-page report, the very same study that you're referring to. It mentions the metabolism of DMT when ingested or in a endogenously produced. I thought you read the paper. Furthermore and obviously, the only reason I wouldn't have concrete data on the so-called "mystical experience" is because it simply hasn't been done. That's why I mentioned earlier that even peer-review studies have to follow a certain politics, and because DMT is a highly illegal substance in most countries, there's not much funding towards asking these very interesting questions and getting the permission to pursue the very likely possibility of evidence that may be available if we could just but study these things properly.

So, I admit, a lot of what I offer here is speculation and my own opinion, but it's not unfounded speculation. Just like Strassman's speculatory reasoning that DMT may be produced in the pineal gland because the pineal gland, as we know, contains tryptophan and the necessary enzymatic constituents to synthesize DMT . Now, that we've found its presence in the rodent's pineal gland, this is a very likely possibility. There's other such things that may not convince you, but I find interesting. For instance, people who claimed themselves "atheist," but after a major psychedelic experience converted to Buddhism. To give a few famous examples, I'd say Richard Alpert, Jack Kerouac, Alan Watts, and Allen Ginsberg. I'm not sure if you've ever read Dr. Rick Strassman's book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," but there are overlapping descriptions in the states of eastern mysticism and psychedelic experiences. I don't think this is a coincidence. I don't have the patience to wait around for tests to finally be done. We have minds, we have the ability to extrapolate, and this is all I've done. If you're going to wait around for the peer-reviewed article before you give yourself permission to let such notions ricochet in your mind, then you may never see it. This stuff may not be properly studied til well after the curtain comes down on this cosmic drama. But so far, Strassman hasn't been necessarily "incorrect." So far, the light that is being shed on these matters are pointing towards the fact that he seems to be on the right track.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 06, 2014, 03:30:42 PM
Or maybe your shit is not not very fucking interesting.

Or maybe you don't like reading walls of text. Are you the one that said earlier, "I stopped reading at 'LSD God'"? I mean, if you can't even read the first paragraph, I could see how maybe this could be a daunting challenge for you.

Spend time to tell you that you are uninteresting is more interesting that you.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 04:38:23 PM
Or maybe you don't like reading walls of text. Are you the one that said earlier, "I stopped reading at 'LSD God'"? I mean, if you can't even read the first paragraph, I could see how maybe this could be a daunting challenge for you.

All you have posted so far is based off of the writings of people who claim things based off of "I think" or "I believe" nothing of substantial evidence. I have read as much as tolerable of the insane ramblings of people who were high as a kite while getting my PhD in Roman history(historians  of the time often drank wine mixed with lead and thus were out of their minds). The ramblings of people who admit that they were fucked out of their minds on a class 1 drug, does not add much to the argument.

Quote from: Moralnihilist on July 06, 2014, 04:55:09 PM
All you have posted so far is based off of the writings of people who claim things based off of "I think" or "I believe" nothing of substantial evidence. I have read as much as tolerable of the insane ramblings of people who were high as a kite while getting my PhD in Roman history(historians  of the time often drank wine mixed with lead and thus were out of their minds). The ramblings of people who admit that they were fucked out of their minds on a class 1 drug, does not add much to the argument.

There is evidence for what I've presented here. Not the precise evidence that would prove any of this stuff, but enough evidence to convince someone of its plausibility. I take it, however, you did not read the OP.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 06, 2014, 04:41:19 PM
Spend time to tell you that you are uninteresting is more interesting that you.

What I've noticed is people who find this stuff extremely fascinating are usually people that have taken up something like Terence McKenna's suggestion of the "heroic dose." I'd wager that most people that responded here have not availed themselves of such an endeavor, if not all. One side-effect of smoking DMT is that ever afterward, you can't shut up about DMT.

Are you guys still talking about perineum philosophy with this guy?


Sent from Monster Island. Titty sprinkles.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 06:30:07 PM
There is evidence for what I've presented here. Not the precise evidence that would prove any of this stuff, but enough evidence to convince someone of its plausibility. I take it, however, you did not read the OP.

I did, and it lacked evidence of any of its claims. Maybe =/= evidence(at least with me). It presents a decent argument, but decent arguments only work in courtrooms not academia. Again without evidence I have to ask, what the hell is your point? Are you trying to convince people here on the validity of your claims? If so you are not going to have much success without actual evidence. Is it to prove that your point might hold water? Again without evidence, good luck.

Any asshat can come here and make a decent argument for the existence of a god. But without actual evidence all it boils down to is that you(or they) expect us to trust you. The claims that you are making are rather outlandish without any actual supporting evidence, what reason do we have to trust you?

Quote from: Moralnihilist on July 06, 2014, 06:52:48 PM
Any asshat can come here and make a decent argument for the existence of a god. But without actual evidence all it boils down to is that you(or they) expect us to trust you. The claims that you are making are rather outlandish without any actual supporting evidence, what reason do we have to trust you?

I have to assume that you, in fact, did not read the OP based on this response. I'm not arguing for the existence for a "God." If that's what you got out of reading the OP, then you've entirely missed the point.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 06:30:07 PM
There is evidence for what I've presented here. Not the precise evidence that would prove any of this stuff, but enough evidence to convince someone of its plausibility. I take it, however, you did not read the OP.
What I've noticed is people who find this stuff extremely fascinating are usually people that have taken up something like Terence McKenna's suggestion of the "heroic dose." I'd wager that most people that responded here have not availed themselves of such an endeavor, if not all. One side-effect of smoking DMT is that ever afterward, you can't shut up about DMT.

It's sort of like fucking your own father. Once you do it, you think anyone else wants to hear about it.

Next time try Janitor In a Drum.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 07:06:50 PM
I have to assume that you, in fact, did not read the OP based on this response. I'm not arguing for the existence for a "God." If that's what you got out of reading the OP, then you've entirely missed the point.

Put down the bong and work on your reading comprehension.

Also care to address the rest of the post? Or are you just going to insist that people read your stoner retard dribble? I read it retard, as I CLEARLY stated in the part of the post that you conveniently ignored to make it look as if your retarded ass had a fucking point.
Heres the facts you have presented so far:




Here is the facts I have presented so far:
1. A "good argument" does not make for proof any more than a good argument for god means one exists(hence the last portion of the post).
2. You have provided ZERO actual proof. All you have provided are accounts from people who have admitted being fucked out of their minds and came up with "something".
3. Your reading comprehension is lacking.


=edit=
My apologies to the mods here. The attempts to pass off the ramblings of someone who is high as a kite as academia is a sore spot for me.

The FOS thread..

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 06:29:24 PM
It's a very powerful speculation because high concentrations are found in cerebral spinal fluid. The speculation is as the dying brain is reaching for its last gasp for oxygen, it draws from oxygen stored in cerebral spinal fluid where you've been storing DMT throughout your life, and so the neat-death experience becomes this colossal DMT experience.

Bullshit. It's not like the influx of oxygen is going to sweep along DMT along with it. Diffusion doesn't work that way. The diffusion rate of a chemical through a membrane is more or less independent of the diffusion flow of any other chemical. That oxygen would diffuse from the CSF into the brain tissues at an increased rate does not imply that DMT would come along with it in any increased amount.

Also, oxygen is a gas. DMT is a complex organic compound that is many times the molecular weight of oxygen. Their diffusion coefficients are going to be way different, and DMT's is going to be much lower.

Furthermore, diffusion occurs when there is a difference in concentration, so if DMT is diffusing from the CSF into the brain tissues, that would mean that the DMT concentration in the brain tissues would be LOWER than that of normal (because supposedly the diffusion doesn't occur in healthy individuals). And because the brain tissues are larger in both mass and volume, such a diffusion would still result in a DMT crash.

So, yeah, this is nonsense from a physics standpoint.

Quote from: Kafei on July 03, 2014, 06:29:24 PM
So, I would NOT say that the notion of DMT being produced in the human body is an unsupported assumption. The constituents necessary to make DMT all are found in the pineal gland. DMT is two enzymatic steps away from trytophan.

As they say in pharmacology, dosage is everything. So what if DMT is found in trace amounts in the brain? Pyruvic acid is found in trace amounts too, due to the Krebs cycle, yet we are not pickled where we stand because pyruvic acid concentration never gets high enough to seriously damage us. Yes, DMT is a metabolate of tryptophan. The question is whether it ever gets high enough to cause this hallucinogenic effects without intervention.

Quite frankly, this notion that DMT is somehow solely responsible for the near-death experience, or any other natural woo experience, is silly. DMT is but one of a whole host of neurotransmitters, and in extreme conditions all of them would get disrupted from various factors. Neurons being starved of oxygen causes the misregulation of a host of nasty chemicals, leading to erratic function. Neurons that are behaving erratically are not going to result in a consciousness that is in any way grounded in reality.

Quote from: Moralnihilist on July 06, 2014, 07:16:19 PM
Put down the bong and work on your reading comprehension.

Also care to address the rest of the post? Or are you just going to insist that people read your stoner retard dribble? I read it retard, as I CLEARLY stated in the part of the post that you conveniently ignored to make it look as if your retarded ass had a fucking point.
Heres the facts you have presented so far:

1. A "good argument" does not make for proof any more than a good argument for god means one exists(hence the last portion of the post)

It's a good argument for a reason, and I do provide the best evidence that has been produced thus far, and I'm willing to bet that it will continue to pile on.

2. You have provided ZERO actual proof. All you have provided are accounts from people who have admitted being fucked out of their minds and came up with "something".

I gave the account of Richard M. Bucke who claims a natural experience, not being "fucked up on something," and he also in his book "Cosmic Consciousness" goes over the experiences of others who've had this phenomenon occur naturally. Alan Watts has written extensively on what he referred to as a "natural satori." There's no denying that DMT is a part of our natural neurochemistry, and while it hasn't been proven (yet) that it may play a central role in these type of experiences, it's simply because the work hasn't been done.

This "something" that you're condescending isn't simply the ravings of the fanciful imagination out of the "fucked up mind," as you'd like to think. It's instead a universal phenomenon. It's more akin to a collective unconscious in that we all have the potential to have this experience, we all have the potential to undergo the "ego death" phenomenon.

I've also mentioned the very plausible psychedelic scenarios that may have went on in these ancient religions such as "soma" in Hinduism which many scholars believe to have been some type of psychedelic mushroom, whether it was Amanita muscaria or a species of Psilocybe, it's not quite clear. There's also no denying that ancient shamanic cultures worshipped an entire entheogenic cornucopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_use_of_entheogens) of plants and fungi. The Aztecs referred to psilocybin mushrooms as "teonanácatl" which is translated "divine mushroom."

I believe it's quite obvious if you examine eastern religions closely, the entire goal is to produce an effect in consciousness, i.e. the samadhi or moksha of Hinduism, 'nirvana' in Buddhism, 'satori' in Zen, 'tao' in Taoism, etc. It's quite obvious that these religions emphasized this phenomenon in consciousness, it was what these religions were obviously all about. I believe any fool can see that.

Christian mysticism contains the phenomenon of 'quietism,' a techinque that is used to induce the "Beatific vision" quite similar to the Buddhist meditation of Japan that's involved in undergoing 'satori' in Zen Buddhism, the Shekhina in Judaism was also a term used by Kabbalist mystics in the description of witnessing the divine, Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, shivering in his cave then receives a divine vision which is quite akin to a classical shamanic experience, St. Paul on the Damascus Road encounters a blinding light which completely alters the direction of his life, the Egyptians used a entire complex of visionary plants such the hallucinogenic blue water lily and the ancient Egyptian "tree of life" has been recently identified as the Acacia nilotica, a tree which is rich in DMT alkaloids, and so forth and so on if you go back to the source of any of the great religions, you are going to find shamanic experiences. So, please, do not try and accuse me of making such speculations unfoundedly, because if you're paying attention at all, it's quite clear that altered states of consciousness are key in these so-called "mystical experiences."

3. Your reading comprehension is lacking.
To the contrary, it's your reading comprehension that is lacking, otherwise you'd realize that I made all these points in the OP.

=edit=
My apologies to the mods here. The attempts to pass off the ramblings of someone who is high as a kite as academia is a sore spot for me.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 06, 2014, 07:48:35 PM
As they say in pharmacology, dosage is everything. So what if DMT is found in trace amounts in the brain? Pyruvic acid is found in trace amounts too, due to the Krebs cycle, yet we are not pickled where we stand because pyruvic acid concentration never gets high enough to seriously damage us. Yes, DMT is a metabolate of tryptophan. The question is whether it ever gets high enough to cause this hallucinogenic effects without intervention.

Due to the legality status of DMT, studies on it have been halted. Perhaps if we could have an untrammeled research to properly address these questions, we'd maybe have some answers. DMT is also speculated to be associated with the REM stage of sleep which is when the heavy dream states are taking place. Obviously, if you consider the dream to be an intense hallucination, the brain is very capable of immersing you into intense altered states of consciousness on its own. I don't believe it's a stretch to say that DMT can also effect one's consciousness in a wakened state as in meditation, for instance.

The precise mechanism for these type of experiences have yet to be neurologically explained, but they nevertheless do exist. And as I've mentioned before, the "natural path" is one of many to induce this mystical state of consciousness.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 06, 2014, 07:48:35 PM
Quite frankly, this notion that DMT is somehow solely responsible for the near-death experience, or any other natural woo experience, is silly. DMT is but one of a whole host of neurotransmitters, and in extreme conditions all of them would get disrupted from various factors. Neurons being starved of oxygen causes the misregulation of a host of nasty chemicals, leading to erratic function. Neurons that are behaving erratically are not going to result in a consciousness that is in any way grounded in reality.

When you say reality, I'm assuming you're referring to a "consensus reality." If you question a person who's had a near-death experience closely what they describe is quite akin to what people describe at the height of a DMT flash when they inhale the vaporized fumes. Coincidence? I don't think so. Taking psychedelics, in a way, is a kind of on-demand near-death experience, only you live to tell the tale.

When you say "neurons are behaving erratically" and this is "not going to result in an experience that is any way grounded in 'reality'," I think you miss the point here. I'm not sure if you've read through the entire post, but I give an analogy to explain this using the example of a television set which I'll re-iterate here.

The TV is a good example, too, just as your TV is capable of projecting so many patterns by turning off signals here and leaving them on there, it then portrays the moving image on the screen, but what happens when all possible signals are turned on? You get a "white light." Now, I'm not saying that perhaps this is what people are talking about in the near-death experience, but it's an interesting way of looking at it. This is very similar to what happens when someone takes a "heroic dose" of psychedelics, it's almost as though you're turning on all the neural pathways of the brain, and what you are left with is the challenge of trying to describe an experience that, in some sense, contains the entire gamut of experience all happening at once. This overwhelming impression that you've "done everything, and been everywhere over and over infinite of times." This is probably more referenced as the "feeling of oneness" or "unity with the universe." It is a kind of panesthesia, but the point is not whether this is "grounded in reality," you see, and I'll explain why.

The profundity of this experience has the sheer power to leave one in complete astonishment, awe, confusion, terror, etc. all wrapped up and rolling together, some people at that point may believe they have just died, but nevertheless, it's a colossally profound altered state that has the potential to revealing something about consciousness most people can scarcely describe. I quoted Terence McKenna earlier, but I think it's worth quoting him again:

QuoteI don’t think you could discover consciousness if you didn’t perturb it, because as Marshall McClune said, “whoever discovered water, it certainly wasn’t a fish”. Well, we are fish swimming in consciousness; and yet we know it’s there. Well, the reason we know it’s there is because if you perturb it, then you see it; and you perturb it by perturbing the engine which generates it, which is the mind/brain system resting behind your eyebrows. If you swap out the ordinary chemicals that are running that system in an invisible fashion, then you see: it’s like dropping ink into a bowl of clear water â€" suddenly the convection currents operating in the clear water become visible, because you see the particles of ink tracing out the previously invisible dynamics of the standing water. The mind is precisely like that, and the psychedelic is like a dye-marker being dropped into this aqueous system. And then you say, “Oh, I see â€" it works like this… and like this.”

So, it may be the mind, but the mind, as I said in the OP, lit up to such a degree that the experiential content becomes seemingly incomprehensible, and it's this seeming incomprehensibility that people throughout millennia have interpreted as "God," "Allah," "Brahman," "satori," "samadhi," "moksha," "nirvana," etc. And more contemporarily as "peak experience," "Cosmic consciousness," and probably the most up-to-date term "ego death." So, you see, it's not a question of whether this state of mind is "merely a hallucination," that's not the argument. It's instead that "God" has always been a metaphor to describe a kind of "ultimate state of consciousness" or "higher consciousness" or "ego death" or whatever simile you'd like.

Look bong boy, the best you have are unsupported claims. There is ZERO actual evidence behind it. Again you failed to answer the simple question, whats your fucking point? Its simple, either you have a fucking point(unlikely or you would have presented it) or you are here to push your stoner philosophy(most likely).

Allow me to show you how things work in academia:
1. a claim is made by somebody.
2. evidence is presented supporting said claim.
3. the evidence is offered for interpretation/repeating.

So far you have failed on 2 and 3. Showing that some asshat makes a claim that makes your burned little brain happy does not amount to actual evidence. You admit that there is no evidence and are here only to make a case. In the case of someone who actually has an education(in this case me) you have failed to present a persuading argument. You only offer what if's, maybe's, and possibly.

Oddly enough this is the same level of "evidence" pushed forward by the theotards who come here trying to convert us. And guess what burn boy, they too have a moron claiming shit in a book with zero evidence. You argument for the supposed "ego death" is nothing more than you being high enough to believe some, as of yet, unproven bullshit.

Now on to your "evidence"
Richard M. Bucke:
Bucke did not record the details and interpretation of his experience at that time. This was not done till years later, and only after he had researched much of the world's literature on mysticism and enlightenment and had corresponded with many others about this subject.
So in this case it was a guy who clearly believed in woo and couldn't be bothered to write down a supposed "cosmic awakening" when it happened? He had to consult people and try to remember "facts" from years before? Yea thats a good source....

The rest of your "sources" include religions and being fucked up? Wow thats amazing evidence there...
Seriously you might want to put the bong down for several weeks there junior.

Now on to point 3, I believe that not only have I proven that I have read your sanctimonious drivel of a mind that has clearly been smoked to the point of mental retardation but I(as well as many others on this forum) countered every argument brought forth in your precious OP.

Now burn boy what else you got?

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 04:38:23 PM
No, the paper itself considers an endogenously produced experienced. I was referring to the 2014 9-page report, the very same study that you're referring to. It mentions the metabolism of DMT when ingested or in a endogenously produced. I thought you read the paper. Furthermore and obviously, the only reason I wouldn't have concrete data on the so-called "mystical experience" is because it simply hasn't been done. That's why I mentioned earlier that even peer-review studies have to follow a certain politics, and because DMT is a highly illegal substance in most countries, there's not much funding towards asking these very interesting questions and getting the permission to pursue the very likely possibility of evidence that may be available if we could just but study these things properly.

So, I admit, a lot of what I offer here is speculation and my own opinion, but it's not unfounded speculation. Just like Strassman's speculatory reasoning that DMT may be produced in the pineal gland because the pineal gland, as we know, contains tryptophan and the necessary enzymatic constituents to synthesize DMT . Now, that we've found its presence in the rodent's pineal gland, this is a very likely possibility. There's other such things that may not convince you, but I find interesting. For instance, people who claimed themselves "atheist," but after a major psychedelic experience converted to Buddhism. To give a few famous examples, I'd say Richard Alpert, Jack Kerouac, Alan Watts, and Allen Ginsberg. I'm not sure if you've ever read Dr. Rick Strassman's book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," but there are overlapping descriptions in the states of eastern mysticism and psychedelic experiences. I don't think this is a coincidence. I don't have the patience to wait around for tests to finally be done. We have minds, we have the ability to extrapolate, and this is all I've done. If you're going to wait around for the peer-reviewed article before you give yourself permission to let such notions ricochet in your mind, then you may never see it. This stuff may not be properly studied til well after the curtain comes down on this cosmic drama. But so far, Strassman hasn't been necessarily "incorrect." So far, the light that is being shed on these matters are pointing towards the fact that he seems to be on the right track.

I was not talking about the amount produced, I'm talking about the threshold dose, do you not know the difference? This is why it's dangerous for people like you and others to speculate about things you don't understand. You often proclaim your findings as fact (something you did here several times) and sometimes people believe you. This creates a broad range of scientific misunderstandings that plague the population to the core, your ignorance is dangerous to yourself and other.

It's not difficult for scientists to get large amount of illegal drugs provided they're willing to do the paperwork. My organic chemistry professor, when I was an undergrad, got 1 kg of laboratory grade pseudo-ephedrine. This was after the meth scare and the amount of paperwork increased dramatically. He needed to use it as a catalyst to prevent his reaction from becoming racemic and the only condition was he had to use all of it.

Regardless, you wouldn't actually need permission to study endogenous levels of DMT and their effect on the human body as they are already present and don't have to be administered. How do you not see that?

Quote from: Moralnihilist on July 06, 2014, 09:14:08 PM

Allow me to show you how things work in academia:
1. a claim is made by somebody.
I do start off saying that a lot of what I say arise out of speculation and opinion. If there was any claim to be made, I suppose one I can make is that psychedelics are capable of inducing this so-called "ego death" phenomenon.

2. evidence is presented supporting said claim.
Well, the experience in and of itself. The extraordinary evidence is this extraordinary experience. This theory fits with the scientific evidence that entheogenic drugs trigger mystical/religious type experiences when they are administered in an appropriately conducive setting (the recent Johns Hopkins psilocybin study concluded this). There's also the work of Dr. Rick Strassman who intravenously dosed dozens of volunteers with pure N,N-DMT. Lo and behold, when the threshold dose was met, all experienced transpersonal phenomena that weren't necessarily projections of the personal pscyhe, but rather seem to be universal motifs within the experience.

3. the evidence is offered for interpretation/repeating.

So far you have failed on 2 and 3. Showing that some asshat makes a claim that makes your burned little brain happy does not amount to actual evidence. You admit that there is no evidence and are here only to make a case. In the case of someone who actually has an education(in this case me) you have failed to present a persuading argument. You only offer what if's, maybe's, and possibly.

So far, what ifs, maybes, and possibly is all we have, but they're not unfounded what ifs and maybes. And that's my point. I am extrapolating from the scientific data gathered thus far. If academia education is all you're basing this on, then what you may need is psychedelic education. Do you have any experience with these substances whatsoever? Y'ever vaporized something like N,N-DMT? I'd wager not based on a lot of your retort.

Oddly enough this is the same level of "evidence" pushed forward by the theotards who come here trying to convert us. And guess what burn boy, they too have a moron claiming shit in a book with zero evidence. You argument for the supposed "ego death" is nothing more than you being high enough to believe some, as of yet, unproven bullshit.

It's not a supposed "ego death," this is rather a tried-and-true phenomenon that, as far as I can discern, most, if not all, people have the potential for. Including yourself. I wouldn't equate this to a "high," the word "high" is usually associated with the use of cannabis. The experience which psychedelics are capable of producing are described by some as a "higher consciousness" or "mystical experience." We're talking about titanic, colossal altered states of consciousness of the sort that if you're religious, you might believe you've met "God" at the height of the experience; if you're a UFO nut, you might be inclined to believe that you've fused consciousness with the extraterrestrial; if you're an atheist, you might reach for a more mathematical diction as in, "I glimpsed a higher dimension." In either case, something profound, transcendental, and interconnected is intuit by the individual.

Take a listen, if you will (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5dHTXii7Ag&t=10m40s)

Now on to your "evidence"
Richard M. Bucke:
Bucke did not record the details and interpretation of his experience at that time. This was not done till years later, and only after he had researched much of the world's literature on mysticism and enlightenment and had corresponded with many others about this subject.
So in this case it was a guy who clearly believed in woo and couldn't be bothered to write down a supposed "cosmic awakening" when it happened? He had to consult people and try to remember "facts" from years before? Yea thats a good source....

The rest of your "sources" include religions and being fucked up? Wow thats amazing evidence there...
Seriously you might want to put the bong down for several weeks there junior.

Bucke is not engaging in "woo," but rather acknowledging a phenomenon in consciousness. That's all. By the way, I don't use cannabis, so your condescending, "Oh, you're just high on the bong" comments come off as imbecilic. I'm not talking about "being fucked up," I'm talking about a particular altered state that has nothing to do with the "high" of cannabis use or the "being fucked up" as with any other drug.

Now on to point 3, I believe that not only have I proven that I have read your sanctimonious drivel of a mind that has clearly been smoked to the point of mental retardation but I(as well as many others on this forum) countered every argument brought forth in your precious OP.
Actually, you haven't. You have made an attempt to imply that there is ZERO evidence, when that's not necessarily the case. Just because we don't have evidence for what the original founders of the major religions may have experienced, doesn't mean we don't know anything about these experiences. Like I said, I believe any fool can see that eastern religion has surrounded itself around the idea of an "altered state" as means to insight. Christianity is a bit different case, because it's thought by most Christians that only Christ is vouchsafe this God-hood, but if you consider that Christ may have been just another human being, like you and I, then it's quite plausible that he may have undergone this experience of "ego death" sometime in his lifetime. Likewise, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, also could have had this very type of experience that I'm talking about. The entire religion was spun off a vision that the so-called "Book of Mormon" claims he had.

Now burn boy what else you got?
The greatest evidence, and you're going to disagree with this, is the "ego death" phenomenon itself. Why? For a very simple reason, most people don't realize that such experience exists. We're, as I said in the OP, intellectually set-up to doubt it. If I hadn't had it for myself, I'd probably argue with the same fervor you have against it. So, if you don't have the idea that such a phenomenon could occur in consciousness in the first place, then of course you're going to doubt it. No explanation can help. I'm sure when I use the word "panesthesia," no one knows what the fuck I'm talking about. It's like trying to describe an orgasm to someone who's never experienced one. What would you say? "Oh, it just feels like your genitals are sneezing." This pays no justice to the splendor of the experience, with the "ego death" phenomenon, this problem is present ever more so, because at least it's quite easy to have an orgasm, it's not as easy to engage in this altered state.

So, in a way, everyone is like Sigmund Freud when Romain Rolland attempted to make Freud aware of this phenomenon. Romain called it the "oceanic feeling," but of course, because Freud could not find it within himself (like most people, theists and atheists alike), he dismissed it and it only appeared as a footnote in a couple of his books.

Quote from: Icarus on July 06, 2014, 09:24:28 PM
I was not talking about the amount produced, I'm talking about the threshold dose, do you not know the difference? This is why it's dangerous for people like you and others to speculate about things you don't understand. You often proclaim your findings as fact (something you did here several times) and sometimes people believe you. This creates a broad range of scientific misunderstandings that plague the population to the core, your ignorance is dangerous to yourself and other.

It's not difficult for scientists to get large amount of illegal drugs provided they're willing to do the paperwork. My organic chemistry professor, when I was an undergrad, got 1 kg of laboratory grade pseudo-ephedrine. This was after the meth scare and the amount of paperwork increased dramatically. He needed to use it as a catalyst to prevent his reaction from becoming racemic and the only condition was he had to use all of it.

Regardless, you wouldn't actually need permission to study endogenous levels of DMT and their effect on the human body as they are already present and don't have to be administered. How do you not see that?

It's not as easy as you might imagine. You'd have to measure endogenous DMT spikes at the moment of death, and that of course, brings up ethical issues. The so-called "natural satori" that Alan Watts spoke about isn't something that people on average just simply undergo. Sure, you can measure endogenous DMT, but the trick is to do it while someone is undergoing the so-called "natural satori," that's a little more tricky. There has been studies done with an EEG measuring the brain waves of Tibetan Buddhist monks entering these various states of deep meditation. Lo and behold, when these monks would engage in this meditation, the EEG would record gamma waves. Gamma waves aren't a part of ordinary consciousness, they seem to be exclusive to these deep meditative states.

Now, if we could measure the DMT spikes during these states, then maybe we could come up with something useful. Terence once gave a monk DMT, and responded that there was no difference between that state and the so-called "bardo" of eastern mysticism. Richard Alpert also tells a tale of giving a monk LSD. The monk was absolutely unfazed by a mega hit of LSD. Of course, I know you don't accept anecdotal evidence, but isn't it interesting?

If your argument is that no such amount of DMT is in the body to produced in the body to reach a threshold dose in the first place, I don't think we necessarily have scientific evidence of that. The anecdotal evidence seems to suggest there is. However, that report you keep referring to is not saying that there's not enough DMT to produce such an experience. Why else would the study consider an endogenously produced experience? It means they leave the possibility open that maybe such a threshold dose exists.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 10:21:01 PM
It's not as easy as you might imagine. You'd have to measure endogenous DMT spikes at the moment of death, and that of course, brings up ethical issues. The so-called "natural satori" that Alan Watts spoke about isn't something that people on average just simply undergo. Sure, you can measure endogenous DMT, but the trick is to do it while someone is undergoing the so-called "natural satori," that's a little more tricky. There has been studies done with an EEG measuring the brain waves of Tibetan Buddhist monks entering these various states of deep meditation. Lo and behold, when these monks would engage in this meditation, the EEG would record gamma waves. Gamma waves aren't a part of ordinary consciousness, they seem to be exclusive to these deep meditative states.

Now, if we could measure the DMT spikes during these states, then maybe we could come up with something useful. Terence once gave a monk DMT, and responded that there was no difference between that state and the so-called "bardo" of eastern mysticism. Richard Alpert also tells a tale of giving a monk LSD. The monk was absolutely unfazed by a mega hit of LSD. Of course, I know you don't accept anecdotal evidence, but isn't it interesting?

If your argument is that no such amount of DMT is in the body to produced in the body to reach a threshold dose in the first place, I don't think we necessarily have scientific evidence of that. The anecdotal evidence seems to suggest there is. However, that report you keep referring to is not saying that there's not enough DMT to produce such an experience. Why else would the study consider an endogenously produced experience? It means they leave the possibility open that maybe such a threshold dose exists.

I don't have to prove a negative, that's just silly. I didn't say it was easy, I said it wasn't illegal. That's the fifth time you've strawmaned my argument, I'm done with you.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 08:51:43 PM
Due to the legality status of DMT, studies on it have been halted. Perhaps if we could have an untrammeled research to properly address these questions, we'd maybe have some answers.

What a flimsy excuse! Being a controlled substance does not preclude study, you moron. Studies can still be very easily performed on rats and dogs with little legal hang-ups for a reputable university. That at least allows you to get in the ballpark of threshold dosages. You can also more easily study pharmacological mechanisms through animal models, anyway.

Also, that legality issue is a problem for you, because being illegal, there is an incentive for the law and society to detect drug use in people. If DMT is illegal, yet produced in quanity naturally in the body, surely there's a fucking baseline to reference.

In short, you have a big fat zero in evidence.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 08:51:43 PM
When you say reality, I'm assuming you're referring to a "consensus reality." If you question a person who's had a near-death experience closely what they describe is quite akin to what people describe at the height of a DMT flash when they inhale the vaporized fumes. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Like your uneducated opinion has any weight whatsoever. "Coincidence? I don't think so," is a classic woo line, for good reason. Coincidence ≠ causation. While the effects of a near-death experience may seem to parallel a DMT flash, that is not indicative of a causal relationship. You have a complete absence of a credible mechanism, as the only mechanism you propose runs right up against the laws of physics.

Quote from: Kafei on July 06, 2014, 08:51:43 PM
The TV is a good example, too, just as your TV is capable of projecting so many patterns by turning off signals here and leaving them on there, it then portrays the moving image on the screen, but what happens when all possible signals are turned on? You get a "white light." Now, I'm not saying that perhaps this is what people are talking about in the near-death experience, but it's an interesting way of looking at it. This is very similar to what happens when someone takes a "heroic dose" of psychedelics, it's almost as though you're turning on all the neural pathways of the brain, and what you are left with is the challenge of trying to describe an experience that, in some sense, contains the entire gamut of experience all happening at once. This overwhelming impression that you've "done everything, and been everywhere over and over infinite of times." This is probably more referenced as the "feeling of oneness" or "unity with the universe."

If it's a "heroic dose," then we should be able to detect it. This offers an obvious avenue for research. The tunnel full of white light described in near-death experiences is a symptom of hypoxia, a condition that has been extensively studied by the militaries of the world, because fighter pilots suffer from it when they pull high-G maneuvers. If there were anything to this DMT thing corellated to hypoxia, it would have been detected long ago.

Also, a "white light" here indicates all of the neurons are too stimulated to actually process anything. Your "white light" condition means that the brain wouldn't be working anymore â€"the neurons are no longer responding to signals from other neurons and all signals are unmodulatedâ€" and is not experiencing a damn thing, even a hallucination. No, we know the origin of that "feeling of oneness" with the world â€" it comes from the deactivation of a region located in the left temporal lobe.

There's no insight here. It's just wrong.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 06, 2014, 10:59:57 PM
What a flimsy excuse! Being a controlled substance does not preclude study, you moron. Studies can still be very easily performed on rats and dogs with little legal hang-ups for a reputable university. That at least allows you to get in the ballpark of threshold dosages. You can also more easily study pharmacological mechanisms through animal models, anyway.

There's no scientific proof as of yet that shows whether there is, in fact, an endogenously produced threshold dose or not. You'd need to measure a DMT spike which is not easy as it's quickly metabolized, and the speculation surrounding where these spikes may occur are in these very specific altered states whether it be REM, the near-death experience, and these deep states of meditation. Are you going to get a rat to give you a demonstration of samadhi? There seems to be more studies done on DMT metabolism than any other aspect of ADME itself. Where's the study on the "AD" portion of ADME? If these studies are so easily done, why isn't there information regarding DMT and its relationship to the human pineal gland? Michael Hoffman espouses a similar concept to Perennial Philosophy at his website "EgoDeath.com," only he believes that there is no natural induction. According to his take, the original route always lay in the use of entheogenic substances, and he's gathered plenty of archaeological evidence of the shamanic use of psychedelics dating back thousands of years. The natural path isn't the only path to this experience. I happen to believe that this experience can be naturally induced. Terence once spoke of a dream he had where in he was given a pipe filled with DMT, and lo and behold, when he smoked it (within the dream), he had a complete, re-vivified experience of the DMT experience. If you accept that he didn't lie about this dream, then obviously this means it's quite possible for the brain to bring about this experience on-the-natch.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 06, 2014, 10:59:57 PM
Also, that legality issue is a problem for you, because being illegal, there is an incentive for the law and society to detect drug use in people. If DMT is illegal, yet produced in quanity naturally in the body, surely there's a fucking baseline to reference. In short, you have a big fat zero in evidence.

I don't think so. Like I said, DMT is not like serotonin which does regulate ordinary consciousness and you could probably attribute a baseline to it. DMT, on the other hand, is a different case, because if the speculation is correct, then those individuals who have an ability to induce it on command would be the culprits when it came to some kind of legal argument. Should we go around arresting Tibetan monks engaging in "satori"?

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 06, 2014, 10:59:57 PM
Like your uneducated opinion has any weight whatsoever. "Coincidence? I don't think so," is a classic woo line, for good reason. Coincidence ≠ causation. While the effects of a near-death experience may seem to parallel a DMT flash, that is not indicative of a causal relationship. You have a complete absence of a credible mechanism, as the only mechanism you propose runs right up against the laws of physics.

How does it run up against the laws of physics? Neuroscience hasn't established yet if it's possible to undergo a DMT experience solely by endogenously produced DMT. As far as neuroscience goes, it's still up in the air.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 06, 2014, 10:59:57 PM
If it's a "heroic dose," then we should be able to detect it. This offers an obvious avenue for research. The tunnel full of white light described in near-death experiences is a symptom of hypoxia, a condition that has been extensively studied by the militaries of the world, because fighter pilots suffer from it when they pull high-G maneuvers. If there were anything to this DMT thing corellated to hypoxia, it would have been detected long ago.

This is not always true. There are other instances, as in Alan Watts' description of a "natural satori (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsPvsN7jVA)," where in one may experience an impending death, not an impending physical death where the body is shutting down, but when you're physically intact, but you're an extreme situation that could potentially lead to death. Most people think of near-death experiences of the flat-lining sort. That's not the only type of near-death experience. In other words, the "hypoxia" explanation of the "white light" is obviously insufficient, because it's possible for people to experience such phenomena when their physical bodies are intact of any physical damage. Stress from such an extreme situation alone could be possibly a moment when DMT spikes.

As far as I know, there's never been any study on whether DMT spikes during any of these types of NDEs. It may be that it simply hasn't been done as the case with most psychedelic research.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 06, 2014, 10:59:57 PM
Also, a "white light" here indicates all of the neurons are too stimulated to actually process anything. Your "white light" condition means that the brain wouldn't be working anymore â€"the neurons are no longer responding to signals from other neurons and all signals are unmodulatedâ€" and is not experiencing a damn thing, even a hallucination. No, we know the origin of that "feeling of oneness" with the world â€" it comes from the deactivation of a region located in the left temporal lobe.
There's no insight here. It's just wrong.

This is a very reductionist explanation. I'd also add that it may be the opposite to what you've described here. It may be the stimulation of the temporal lobe as in the "The God spot" speculation.

Quote from: Icarus on July 06, 2014, 10:58:07 PM
I don't have to prove a negative, that's just silly. I didn't say it was easy, I said it wasn't illegal. That's the fifth time you've strawmaned my argument, I'm done with you.

The phenomenon of "ego death" exists. It's a tried-and-true experience we all have the potential of experiencing. This is no straw man. Of course, you may not have the patience for meditation, but if you really want to deny it, why don't you try ayahuasca? I doubt you'd come back talking about straw men.

I was taught by a guru to experience God by meditating which took me three years to accomplish. If you think anything you experience meditating is anything more than a product of your brain and body and an illusion, you are deluding yourself. neurology has shown the parts of the brain that cause hallucinations contrary to what you posted. Ever hear of the prefrontal cortex?  You are either ignorant of modern neurological experiments, reading pseudo science opinions, or being disingenuous. Give it a rest!  :pray: Solitary 

Quote from: Solitary on July 07, 2014, 12:25:37 AM
I was taught by a guru to experience God by meditating which took me three years to accomplish. If you think anything you experience meditating is anything more than a product of your brain and body and an illusion, you are deluding yourself. neurology has shown the parts of the brain that cause hallucinations contrary to what you posted. Ever hear of the prefrontal cortex?  You are either ignorant of modern neurological experiments, reading pseudo science opinions, or being disingenuous. Give it a rest!  :pray: Solitary

I never denied that this experience is a product of the brain. To the contrary, I'm saying it is a product of the brain. That's why I tried to make it clear in the very first paragraph of the OP that I'm not trying to argue for some kind of "LSD God." People seem to always misinterpret it that way, and I think it's because the lack of brevity. A lot of people don't like the chore of reading a long wall of text, and so they'll skim through, and then completely misinterpret what I'm really trying to say.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 12:04:45 AM
There's no scientific proof as of yet that shows whether there is, in fact, an endogenously produced threshold dose or not. You'd need to measure a DMT spike which is not easy as it's quickly metabolized, and the speculation surrounding where these spikes may occur are in these very specific altered states whether it be REM, the near-death experience, and these deep states of meditation. Are you going to get a rat to give you a demonstration of samadhi? There seems to be more studies done on DMT metabolism than any other aspect of ADME itself. Where's the study on the "AD" portion of ADME? If these studies are so easily done, why isn't there information regarding DMT and its relationship to the human pineal gland?

Because they haven't found anything of interest. Your DMT spike doesn't exist. The half-life of DMT is 15 minutes in serum, which while pretty quick, is easily caught if you know what you're looking for. You can't be arrested for studying the endogenous version of any controlled substance, and if hypoxia produces these effects, the military would have caught on to the connection.

Simply put, to establish the connection between DMT and your natural highs, you need to catch DMT in the act. Until then, it's just bullshit.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 12:04:45 AM
How does it run up against the laws of physics? Neuroscience hasn't established yet if it's possible to undergo a DMT experience solely by endogenously produced DMT. As far as neuroscience goes, it's still up in the air.

Physiologically, its settled, from the lack of any DMT reservoirs to produce your sudden spikes. DMT takes time to synthesize, and it needs to be synthesized from its precursors. Significant reservoirs are lacking.

Again, DMT has never been caught in the act mediating your meditation shit. Until it has, your words are bullshit.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 12:04:45 AM
This is not always true. There are other instances, as in Alan Watts' description of a "natural satori (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsPvsN7jVA)," where in one may experience an impending death, not an impending physical death where the body is shutting down, but when you're physically intact, but you're an extreme situation that could potentially lead to death. Most people think of near-death experiences of the flat-lining sort.

Bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit. Near-death does in fact mean the flat-lining sort by definition. You want me to believe your DMT spike? Catch one.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 12:07:08 AM
The phenomenon of "ego death" exists. It's a tried-and-true experience we all have the potential of experiencing. This is no straw man. Of course, you may not have the patience for meditation, but if you really want to deny it, why don't you try ayahuasca? I doubt you'd come back talking about straw men.

Can't respond with an actual argument, so you decide to respond with a post that doesn't even attempt at address anything I said but goes on a wild tangent about nothing? Classy.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 07, 2014, 04:23:37 AM
Yeah it must be convenient to skip my first post. I wonder if that means you really have no idea what I was talking about, or actually you had some idea albeit tiny, but it didn't 'appeal' to you.

You do not know jack squad about the scope of the field you think some nut job has some 'theory' about.

I never skipped any of your posts. In one of your first posts, you said that Amanita muscaria is "natural LSD." That's nonsense. The psychoactive compound in Amanita muscaria is muscimol. It has absolutely nothing to do with LSD, so I question whether you know what you're talking about.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 07:33:15 AM
Simply put, to establish the connection between DMT and your natural highs, you need to catch DMT in the act. Until then, it's just bullshit.

Until then, it's not "bullshit," it's simply unproven. That's all. The research simply hasn't been done. It's not as easy to gain permission (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRaXdfSmxEc&t=4m47s) to do these things as you might think. Furthermore, I've also pointed out numerous times that the natural path, if it does exists (I believe it does, you doubt it), isn't the only path to inducing this phenomenon. Michael Hoffman goes over this at his website "EgoDeath.com" which I link in one of the initial paragraphs of the OP. John Allegro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK6Z0CGrXcY&t=53m) wrote about the possibility of Christianity holding its roots in the psychedelic mushroom. So, just because you deny the natural route, doesn't dismiss the concept of Perennial Philosophy. Perhaps you've heard of Jill Bolte Taylor's "Stroke of Insight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU&t=6m31s)." Her experience with a stroke, if you listen to her describe it, if you didn't know any better, you'd think she was describing an LSD experience.

Quote from: Icarus on July 07, 2014, 08:40:26 AM
Can't respond with an actual argument, so you decide to respond with a post that doesn't even attempt at address anything I said but goes on a wild tangent about nothing? Classy.

I did respond with an argument, it's simply that you cannot accept or reject the validity of it. If you believe this "ego death" doesn't exist, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Take up one of Terence McKenna's suggestions or take ayahuasca. I doubt you'd come back saying, "You can't respond with an actual argument?"

Every time a person has an orgasm they have an ego death, that's why the French call it the little death.

QuoteNow, Buddhism, on the other hand, is based not on a series of concepts but an experience. A phenomenon in consciousness that can potentially happen to anyone. It is not a "personal experience," because although this phenomenon is often spoken about in religious terms and given labels such as "samadhi," "satori," or "nirvana," it is often described as an "impersonal experience" or a "transpersonal experience" because there are motifs or universal themes within this peculiar experience that are not reducible to the individual.

You haven't read the original readings of Buddha have you? And to say a personal experience is transpersonal experience is not being one because the experience is a transpersonal experience because of motives and universal themes is ridiculous, and saying they are not reducible to the individual when they have them is not logical. Every culture has the same religious motifs and universal themes for all of recorded history for over 6,000 years, how does that equate to a universal and not individuals having the same experience because we are all wired the same way from evolution and universal experiences like the fear of dying etc.? Nirvana is not ego death according to Buddha, but freedom from desire.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
I did respond with an argument, it's simply that you cannot accept or reject the validity of it. If you believe this "ego death" doesn't exist, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Take up one of Terence McKenna's suggestions or take ayahuasca. I doubt you'd come back saying, "You can't respond with an actual argument?"

Well ya, you cannot accept or reject the existence of ghost, dragons, fairies, pixies, elves and unicorns. If it's your burden to prove they don't exist, why have you not spent all your money to prove they don't exist? I think you are a purple puss filled wart, prove to me you are not, until then I will tell people it's a fact (something I know would make you proud). It took me some time to warm up to your line of reasoning but now I'm starting to see the benefits.

Kafei is a purple puss filled wart until he can prove he is not, so sayeth the speaker of science.

Quote from: Solitary on July 07, 2014, 11:08:06 AM
You haven't read the original readings of Buddha have you? And to say a personal experience is transpersonal experience is not being one because the experience is a transpersonal experience because of motives and universal themes is ridiculous, and saying they are not reducible to the individual when they have them is not logical. Every culture has the same religious motifs and universal themes for all of recorded history for over 6,000 years, how does that equate to a universal and not individuals having the same experience because we are all wired the same way from evolution and universal experiences like the fear of dying etc.? Nirvana is not ego death according to Buddha, but freedom from desire.

All the Buddha demanded from the devotee was nothing less than the extinction of the ego. "Desire" is translated from the Pali and Sanskrit languages, and he's not referring to the obvious desires that we think about today, as in the desire for wealth, the desire to be famous, the desire for food or sex. No, that's not what the Buddha was talking about. He was referring to something more subtle than that. He was referring to volition. The idea that you're the author of your actions. That you're the "doer" or the "thinker." If you can relinquish volition, then you will remove the veil of the ego. If you can manage to do this, then consciousness will shift towards this phenomenon, something closer to a "collective unconscious," but I feel even this Jungian term is insufficient to describe this.

There is a notion in Hinduism referred to as "non-duality." It is the dissolving of the subject-object duality that's spoken about so much in Philosophy of Mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mind). This is also referred to as the "mind-body problem." Non-duality in eastern philosophy is the dissolving between the subject of experience, and the objects that are being experienced, i.e. your life, your universe, etc. When you dissolve this boundary, then you have non-duality, a unity, oneness, etc. This is the experience of non-duality is what is also referred to as "nirvana" in Buddhism. Nirvana is translated "blow out." Meaning "blow out" desire or a more powerful word to describe this desire is volition. The illusion of the ego that thinks he or she is the "doer." This is also referred to as "nondoership" in Hinduism.

After all, where is the "I"? Where is the "me" that identifies itself as the ego? The "me" is always associated with the body and the body as seen through the microscope is nothing but a play of cells being created and destroyed. Even your skeleton renews itself after several years. So, the "ego" is this psychological construct, a conceptual image of yourself within the mind made up of your emotions, your thoughts, your memories, your dreams, hopes, fantasies, etc. You perpetuate this notion of "I" through memory. So, the Buddha tells the disciple to let go of the sense of "I," because this "I" is not what the mind thinks it is.

Quote from: Icarus on July 07, 2014, 11:13:26 AM
Well ya, you cannot accept or reject the existence of ghost, dragons, fairies, pixies, elves and unicorns. If it's your burden to prove they don't exist, why have you not spent all your money to prove they don't exist? I think you are a purple puss filled wart, prove to me you are not, until then I will tell people it's a fact (something I know would make you proud). It took me some time to warm up to your line of reasoning but now I'm starting to see the benefits.

Kafei is a purple puss filled wart until he can prove he is not, so sayeth the speaker of science.

But I'm not talking about fictional entities, but a tried-and-true phenomenon in consciousness, and that's the difference. I'm talking about something concrete, not something imaginative. However, your skepticism toward it is quite understandable. I know that if I hadn't had this experience for myself, I definitely would not believe it exists. I would be just as skeptical as you are, because I've sort of come to realize that, intellectually, most people cannot come to terms with a concept like this. They have to be exceptionally open-minded to consider the possibility that it does exist. Of course, you don't want to be so open-minded that the wind whistles between your ears, but nevertheless, I hold DMT in reserve for any hardcore doubters. Because if anything will convince you that this phenomenon does exist, smoking DMT will do it. The experience itself only last about 5 minutes. Surely, you have five minutes to invest in an experience that'll alter your entire ontology.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 12:09:05 PM
But I'm not talking about fictional entities, but a tried-and-true phenomenon in consciousness, and that's the difference. I'm talking about something concrete, not something imaginative. However, your skepticism toward it is quite understandable. I know that if I hadn't had this experience for myself, I definitely would not believe it exists. I would be just as skeptical as you are, because I've sort of come to realize that, intellectually, most people cannot come to terms with a concept like this. They have to be exceptionally open-minded to consider the possibility that it does exist. Of course, you don't want to be so open-minded that the wind whistles between your ears, but nevertheless, I hold DMT in reserve for any hardcore doubters. Because if anything will convince you that this phenomenon does exist, smoking DMT will do it. The experience itself only last about 5 minutes. Surely, you have five minutes to invest in an experience that'll alter your entire ontology.

Why do you pretend you're scientifically minded then propose personal experience as a line of valid evidence? Why are you not open minded to learning something about biochemistry? Why do you completely ignore the enzyme that metabolizes DMT and learning about the tryptophan metabolic pathways? I am equally unwilling to open my mind to unfounded hypothesis as you are to learning about how the body really works. If you actually gave a shit about the idea you're pitching you'd be doing the research yourself.

Quote from: Icarus on July 07, 2014, 12:32:27 PM
Why do you pretend you're scientifically minded then propose personal experience as a line of valid evidence? Why are you not open minded to learning something about biochemistry? Why do you completely ignore the enzyme that metabolizes DMT and learning about the tryptophan metabolic pathways? I am equally unwilling to open my mind to unfounded hypothesis as you are to learning about how the body really works. If you actually gave a shit about the idea you're pitching you'd be doing the research yourself.

Like I said, this is not a "personal experience" per se, and that is because this experience is often described as transpersonal or impresonal. It does arise out of the subjective experience, but this is not some kind of personalized experience. It's not a projection of the personal unconscious. And I have researched this stuff extensively. There is, instead, an experience of universal motifs and archetypal imagery that isn't necessarily specific to anyone. For instance, the fractal phenomena of the tryptamine-based psychedelics is a universal theme. That means, if you were to use these psychedelics in the shamanic fashion, you, too, would be witness to this fractal phenomena.

I'm completely aware of the metabolism of DMT, and the synthesis of tryptophan to DMT, etc. I don't really see how being aware of that knocks what I'm talking about. I'm going to have to assume you've never tried DMT judging by what you've laid out here. If you took the necessary precautions, would you at the very least be willing to experiment with something like N,N-DMT or ayahuasca or psilocybin mushrooms?

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 12:41:48 PM
Like I said, this is not a "personal experience" per se, and that is because this experience is often described as transpersonal or impresonal. It does arise out of the subjective experience, but this is not some kind of personalized experience. It's not a projection of the personal unconscious. And I have researched this stuff extensively. There is, instead, an experience of universal motifs and archetypal imagery that isn't necessarily specific to anyone. For instance, the fractal phenomena of the tryptamine-based psychedelics is a universal theme. That means, if you were to use these psychedelics in the shamanic fashion, you, too, would be witness to this fractal phenomena.

I'm completely aware of the metabolism of DMT, and the synthesis of tryptophan to DMT, etc. I don't really see how being aware of that knocks what I'm talking about. I'm going to have to assume you've never tried DMT judging by what you've laid out here. If you took the necessary precautions, would you at the very least be willing to experiment with something like N,N-DMT or ayahuasca or psilocybin mushrooms?

I have actually had my fair share of hallucinogens, that's what peaked my interest and future education in biochemistry. The difference between us is I'm not stupid enough to think the experience had any other significance than overloading my neurons with stimuli. You're trying to being a "sage" wisdom thing after you did some drugs and thought the things you were thinking were profound. They're not, you're just too lazy to figure it out.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 12:41:48 PM
Like I said, this is not a "personal experience" per se, and that is because this experience is often described as transpersonal or impresonal. It does arise out of the subjective experience, but this is not some kind of personalized experience. It's not a projection of the personal unconscious. And I have researched this stuff extensively. There is, instead, an experience of universal motifs and archetypal imagery that isn't necessarily specific to anyone. For instance, the fractal phenomena of the tryptamine-based psychedelics is a universal theme. That means, if you were to use these psychedelics in the shamanic fashion, you, too, would be witness to this fractal phenomena.

I'm completely aware of the metabolism of DMT, and the synthesis of tryptophan to DMT, etc. I don't really see how being aware of that knocks what I'm talking about. I'm going to have to assume you've never tried DMT judging by what you've laid out here. If you took the necessary precautions, would you at the very least be willing to experiment with something like N,N-DMT or ayahuasca or psilocybin mushrooms?

Look buddy, I'm sure your perineum philosophy is absolutely fascinating to the hippies you obviously spend most of your time with, but those of us not currently sharing in your drug-coma know that everything you're saying is bullshit, and we're not all that interested in partaking in your delusions.

Quote from: Icarus on July 07, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
I have actually had my fair share of hallucinogens, that's what peaked my interest and future education in biochemistry. The difference between us is I'm not stupid enough to think the experience had any other significance than overloading my neurons with stimuli. You're trying to being a "sage" wisdom thing after you did some drugs and thought the things you were thinking were profound. They're not, you're just too lazy to figure it out.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fair share" or if you've ever done it in a shamanic fashion meaning the way Terence McKenna described as the "heroic dose." I've only had a handful of these experiences, but I always shot for the "heroic dose." You see, the "ego death" phenomenon that I'm talking about is not elicited until you exceed a specific dose range, and just because you take a "heroic dose," doesn't necessarily mean you'll hit it. This is an art, it's an art, it’s something you coax into existence. I mean, you have to learn to make love, you have to learn to speak English. Anything worth doing is an art that is acquired. This is part of our birthright, perhaps the most important part of our birthright. These substances will deliver. It is the confoundment of psychology and science generally, and that’s why it’s so touchy for cultural institutions.

Concerning psilocybin mushrooms, Terence McKenna recommends for someone who weighs about 140 lbs to take at least 5 dried grams. Of course, if you weigh more, you want to go a little higher. It also helps if you fast. For instance, you'll skip breakfast and lunch, then have them for dinner. Smoking cannabis at the height of this experience also can greaten your chances of exceeding this threshold. Of course, a lot of people aren't comfortable taking that amount. It can feel, of course, like an eternity, but usually lasts about 6 to 9 hours depending on the potency and species of the mushrooms.

Most people take these things recreationally which usually means light doses. Because taking light doses will allow you to still be able to attend the concert or the party, etc. I'm talking about the shamanic fashion of taking these things. Shamans believed that mushrooms connected them to the divine, and would intentionally take these intrepid doses to elicit these states of mind. They took them spiritually, not recreationally as they're usually done today. I'm not sure what fashion you took them in, but when you take them in a shamanic fashion, this idea of "overloading neurons with stimuli" becomes exceedingly more and more expressive and represented as stranger and stranger phenomena in consciousness. I don't deny that this may be simply neural pathways igniting like a Christmas tree, but my point the entire time has been that these altered states of mind is at the root of the major religions.

In other words, as I said before, it may be the mind, but the mind lit up to such a degree that the experiential content becomes seemingly incomprehensible, and this seeming incomprehensibility has over the ages been interpreted as "God," "Brahman," "Allah," "nirvana," "satori," "samadhi," "shekhina," and more contemporarily as "peak experience," "Cosmic consciousness" and "ego death."

If you have the time, I'd like you to listen to the clip below. Listen through at least 5 minutes, if you don't mind.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 07, 2014, 01:54:56 PM
Look buddy, I'm sure your perineum philosophy is absolutely fascinating to the hippies you obviously spend most of your time with, but those of us not currently sharing in your drug-coma know that everything you're saying is bullshit, and we're not all that interested in partaking in your delusions.

Those people who've not had the experience are simply prejudice, and I'm not sure how they feel anything they say about the experience holds any weight, because they've no idea what it's like. So, they're in no place to announce it bullshit, especially when I've pointed out very relevant facts. Nothing I've said has anything to do with delusion. Please, what exactly have I said that has given you the impression of delusion? You cannot point it out, 'cause I've done nothing of the sort.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 02:04:01 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "fair share" or if you've ever done it in a shamanic fashion meaning the way Terence McKenna described as the "heroic dose." I've only had a handful of these experiences, but I always shot for the "heroic dose." You see, the "ego death" phenomenon that I'm talking about is not elicited until you exceed a specific dose range, and just because you take a "heroic dose," doesn't necessarily mean you'll hit it. This is an art, it's an art, it’s something you coax into existence. I mean, you have to learn to make love, you have to learn to speak English. Anything worth doing is an art that is acquired. This is part of our birthright, perhaps the most important part of our birthright. These substances will deliver. It is the confoundment of psychology and science generally, and that’s why it’s so touchy for cultural institutions.

Concerning psilocybin mushrooms, Terence McKenna recommends for someone who weighs about 140 lbs to take at least 5 dried grams. Of course, if you weigh more, you want to go a little higher. It also helps if you fast. For instance, you'll skip breakfast and lunch, then have them for dinner. Smoking cannabis at the height of this experience also can greaten your chances of exceeding this threshold. Of course, a lot of people aren't comfortable taking that amount. It can feel, of course, like an eternity, but usually lasts about 6 to 9 hours depending on the potency and species of the mushrooms.

Most people take these things recreationally which usually means light doses. Because taking light doses will allow you to still be able to attend the concert or the party, etc. I'm talking about the shamanic fashion of taking these things. Shamans believed that mushrooms connected them to the divine, and would intentionally take these intrepid doses to elicit these states of mind. They took them spiritually, not recreationally as they're usually done today. I'm not sure what fashion you took them in, but when you take them in a shamanic fashion, this idea of "overloading neurons with stimuli" becomes exceedingly more and more expressive and represented as stranger and stranger phenomena in consciousness. I don't deny that this may be simply neural pathways igniting like a Christmas tree, but my point the entire time has been that these altered states of mind is at the root of the major religions.

In other words, as I said before, it may be the mind, but the mind lit up to such a degree that the experiential content becomes seemingly incomprehensible, and this seeming incomprehensibility has over the ages been interpreted as "God," "Brahman," "Allah," "nirvana," "satori," "samadhi," "shekhina," and more contemporarily as "peak experience," "Cosmic consciousness" and "ego death."

If you have the time, I'd like you to listen to the clip below. Listen through at least 5 minutes, if you don't mind.

Alan Watts - Psychedelic experience (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5dHTXii7Ag&t=10m40s)

None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about. You're trying to use a personal drug experience as proof of an unrelated physical phenomenon. You've read lots of peer reviewed papers right? Which of them rely on descriptive drug experiences as proof of anything other than the personal effect of mind altering substances on humans? None is the answer you're looking for.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 02:04:01 PMThose people who've not had the experience are simply prejudice, and I'm not sure how they feel anything they say about the experience holds any weight, because they've no idea what it's like. So, they're in no place to announce it bullshit, especially when I've pointed out very relevant facts.

I've never gotten drunk while driving. Am I wrong to judge drunk drivers? This argument of yours falls apart under cursory analysis.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 02:04:01 PMNothing I've said has anything to do with delusion. Please, what exactly have I said that has given you the impression of delusion?

QuoteWhat I'm saying basically is that in ancient times when people would have these type of experiences it was of such profundity that "God" was simply a metaphor to attempt to describe an ultimate state of consciousness.

"Ultimate state of consciousness" is a well-known shorthand for "I want to sound all mystical and deep and shit without knowing what the fuck I'm talking about." It's woo, and your honest belief in woo is a delusion.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 02:04:01 PMYou cannot point it out

I just did.

Can we just ban him, please? It's what he wants. It's what we want. Let's just do it.

Quote from: Icarus on July 07, 2014, 02:09:49 PM
None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about. You're trying to use a personal drug experience as proof of an unrelated physical phenomenon. You've read lots of peer reviewed papers right? Which of them rely on descriptive drug experiences as proof of anything other than the personal effect of mind altering substances on humans? None is the answer you're looking for.

There is scientific evidence that entheogenic drugs trigger mystical/religious experiences when they are administered in an appropriately conducive setting (the recent Johns Hopkins psilocybin study concluded this), likewise the work done by Dr. Rick Strassman also came to similar findings. And I'd also wager any further clinical trial would come to the same conclusion.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 07, 2014, 02:13:33 PM
I've never gotten drunk while driving. Am I wrong to judge drunk drivers? This argument of yours falls apart under cursory analysis.

I would not compare psychedelics to alcohol, so this is simply a false analogy. I'm not even sure how you're equating this. I mean, drunk drivers aside, would you play a violin while driving, would you text while driving? I wouldn't equate this to the shamanic use of psychedelics. Shamans don't take ayahuasca then go driving cars.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 07, 2014, 02:13:33 PM
"Ultimate state of consciousness" is a well-known shorthand for "I want to sound all mystical and deep and shit without knowing what the fuck I'm talking about." It's woo, and your honest belief in woo is a delusion.

It's not woo. I was borrowing the rhetoric of Alan Watts. He uses it "here (http://www.veoh.com/watch/v45645631ZQwQXX57?h1=Alan+Watts+-+What+Buddhism%27s+About)" in his description of Brahman. Brahman, as I've been pointing out, is synonymous with the more contemporary term "ego death." It's in reference to a tried-and-true phenomenon in consciousness, not woo. The only reason why you think it's woo, is because you've never had this experience for yourself. So, you don't know how to think about it or to consider it. You've nothing in your experience to base it on and to extrapolate from, simply because you've never have had the experience. Now, just because you've no experience with this state of mind, doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it's "woo."

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 07, 2014, 02:13:33 PM
I just did.

*face palm* No, you only thought you did, because as I've mentioned before, you've nowhere in your experience to draw from to possibly relate to this phenomenon.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 02:30:48 PM*face palm* No, you only thought you did, because as I've mentioned before, you've nowhere in your experience to draw from to possibly relate to this phenomenon.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00965/money-graphics-2006_965498a.jpg)

You just like to get high because you are a worthless human being and you're trying to convince us that not only does it not make you worthless but makes you capital S Special.

We're not buying it. We don't care what stoned assholes you quote.

Go away.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 02:30:48 PM
There is scientific evidence that entheogenic drugs trigger mystical/religious experiences when they are administered in an appropriately conducive setting (the recent Johns Hopkins psilocybin study concluded this), likewise the work done by Dr. Rick Strassman also came to similar findings. And I'd also wager any further clinical trial would come to the same conclusion.

Did you read the post you replied to? I said specifically "other than the personal effect of mind altering substances on humans" having a mystical or religious experience is only real in the overstimulated brain of the user.

Quote from: Icarus on July 07, 2014, 02:46:32 PM
Did you read the post you replied to? I said specifically "other than the personal effect of mind altering substances on humans" having a mystical or religious experience is only real in the overstimulated brain of the user.

I think you're misinterpreting it. I'm equating "mystical experience" or "ego death" with the state of mind that is elicited by these psychedelics. These are simply poetic terms for this phenomenon in consciousness. And we're not entirely sure of the mechanism and whether it's truly due to overstimulation. Perhaps you're familiar with the work of Robin Carhart-Harris (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNR4o5JZEi0)? He's done some work with dosing volunteers with psilocybin and scanning their brains with an fMRI to look at brain activity. You'd expect "overstimulation," but instead you have lessened activity in the areas of the brain that may be responsible for the so-called Freudian "ego," and stimulated activity in dormant areas of the brain. Despite the research that has done thus far, it's still not understood exactly how these tryptamine-compounds work on the mind. Consciousness itself is still quite a mystery to neuroscience.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 02:37:47 PM
You just like to get high because you are a worthless human being and you're trying to convince us that not only does it not make you worthless but makes you capital S Special.

We're not buying it. We don't care what stoned assholes you quote.

Go away.

I don't like to get high. This experience is not something you're going to rush to repeat. Most people after the initial "heroic dose" never return to it. It's literally that profound. In fact, one psychedelicist once said, "Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle psychedelics." Very true. I mean, these experiences have the potential to be quite terrifying. Psychedelics aren't addictive. I think that's a huge misconception amongst people who know very little about these things. Aren't you the same person who didn't even read past the first paragraph? It's good that you're not buying anything, anyway, because I've nothing to sell. Oh, wait, you would have realized that already if you actually read the very first paragraph of the OP!

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 07, 2014, 02:34:51 PM
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00965/money-graphics-2006_965498a.jpg)

If you're implying that I've "moved a goal," this is false. I've changed nothing about my position, and instead have been steadfast regarding my position relative to the Perennial Philosophy.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 02:54:37 PM

I don't like to get high.

Yes you do.

QuoteIn fact, one psychedelicist once said, "Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle psychedelics."

Stoners say all sorts of stupid things.

QuoteIt's good that you're not buying anything, anyway, because I've nothing to sell.

Yes you do. You want us to take this shit seriously. If you want to put poison into your body and feel part of your brain die, that is your business.

If you want us to try it, or worse, give your self-medication respect, you can fuck right off.

Go away.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 03:08:06 PM
Yes you do.

I promise you, that is not the case. If anyone is smoking DMT twice or thrice a year, then they're abusing it. One high-dosage of a psychedelic experience could leave you pondering it for a lifetime. Most people, like I said, never return to it after one heavy dose. If you ever do return to it, it's out of your own curiosity, of course... The next time you do it, you're a little more cautious. It's easy to do it the first time, 'cause you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Ever afterwards, you're going to have to have a little chat with yourself before you probably eventually chicken out.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 03:08:06 PM
Stoners say all sorts of stupid things.

The quote is actually attributed to Lily Tomlin. I don't think she's a "stoner."

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 03:08:06 PM
Yes you do. You want us to take this shit seriously. If you want to put poison into your body and feel part of your brain die, that is your business.

No, I want to be understood with as little as ambiguity as possible, and of course I'd like feedback on these concepts. I've appreciated the feedback I've got so far. However, you're a different case, 'cause it's quite obvious you didn't even read the OP. You seem to be going by what other people have responded to it.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 03:08:06 PM
If you want us to try it, or worse, give your self-medication respect, you can fuck right off.

Go away.

I'd like to pique people's interest into this very peculiar aspect of consciousness which psychedelics have the ability to induce. They don't necessarily have to take these things. There's websites such as "Erowid.com (http://www.erowid.org/)" that have very interesting information and facts on these substances that are interesting enough. Of course, if someone wants to take up this endeavor themselves, that's not anybody's business but their own.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 03:14:42 PM
"No, I want to be understood with as little as ambiguity as possible, and feedback on these concepts.

Fine.

You are a cancer sore on on humanity.

Go away.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 03:18:27 PM
Fine. You are a cancer sore on on humanity. Go away.

You don't have to participate in the thread, you know. What's with this "go away"? Do you tell this to everyone who types out long posts? Is that what you're truly afaid of? Do you fear sesquipedalians? Are you a sesquipedalophobic?

I just don't like stupidity.

Hence, I do not like you.

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 03:26:03 PM
I just don't like stupidity.

Hence, I do not like you.

I could say the exact same thing for yourself, and I think I did by calling you sesquipedalophobic. You are participating in a thread in which you haven't even read the original post, yet you continue to add your opinion. Wouldn't that be defined as stupidity? Your basis for calling me "stupid" is unfounded, and the fact that you result to insults instead of trying to argue any real points says volumes about yourself.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 03:30:31 PM
Your basis for calling me "stupid" is unfounded,

You are hear to "pique people's interest" in putting poison into their bodies and nothing else. All of your posts have been in this thread. You are not interested in anything else or to do anything on this forum but to push your little agenda.

You are a proselytizer.

Go away.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 02:54:37 PMIf you're implying that I've "moved a goal," this is false. I've changed nothing about my position, and instead have been steadfast regarding my position relative to the Perennial Philosophy.

I've already shown that Perineum Philosophy is based on delusions. You rejected it on the basis of my not having experience with your drug of choice, to which I can only respond with, "So fucking what?" Eyewitness testimony is the most unreliable form of evidence. You've been presented with the science many times, and you blatantly misinterpret it to your own ends. I don't have to take LSD or shrooms or whatever else you claim gives "ultimate consciousness" to know the science of it, and until you can get that through your thick skull you are going to be the subject of ridicule.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 07, 2014, 03:39:42 PM
I've already shown that Perineum Philosophy is based on delusions. You rejected it on the basis of my not having experience with your drug of choice, to which I can only respond with, "So fucking what?" Eyewitness testimony is the most unreliable form of evidence. You've been presented with the science many times, and you blatantly misinterpret it to your own ends. I don't have to take LSD or shrooms or whatever else you claim gives "ultimate consciousness" to know the science of it, and until you can get that through your thick skull you are going to be the subject of ridicule.

What science behind it? Neuroscience doesn't have a clue as to what exactly is going on with psychedelics, let alone can it even explain the very phenomenology of consciousness itself. This isn't simply "eyewitness testimony," because it has been shown by Strassman, Griffiths (http://www.heffter.org/research-jhus.htm), and others (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNR4o5JZEi0&t=35m) that these mystical experiences do occur, and can be reliably reproduced in a laboratory setting. This isn't like the unreliable evidence of someone who claimed they saw the Loch Ness Monster. So, just because you think you have some kind of abstact notion of the "science behind it," doesn't mean you truly understand what the experience consist of. Neurons firing and the subjective qualia, while they may be directly related, are two quite different things.

When you take a sufficient dose of something like psilocybin mushrooms, at about the hour and a half mark, walking becomes out of the question, sex (although you may consider it) is out of the question, because you are nailed to the ground somewhere off at the edge of the firelight wrestling with a mystery so profound, so bizarre that even as we sit here with Husserl, Heidegger, and Heisenberg and all these clowns under our belts, it is still absolutely mysterious, appalling, challenging, boundary-dissolving, and unavoidably ecstatic. It is THE living mystery, and I don't know how many of them there are in the world, but for my money, there only has to be one to rescue the entire concept from, you know, the dirty claws of the reductionist, the materialist, the physicalist, the  the Christ-ers, the nothing but-ers, the merely this and the simply that-ers!

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 03:35:33 PM
You are hear to "pique people's interest" in putting poison into their bodies and nothing else. All of your posts have been in this thread. You are not interested in anything else or to do anything on this forum but to push your little agenda.

You are a proselytizer.

Go away.

No, this is precisely what I'm not doing. I'm not trying to get people to take psychedelics, but rather pique their interest in the topic of psychedelics and the experiences that they have the ability to launch people into. I have no agenda to push. I'm interested only in discourse. I've nothing to sell. If someone decides to take up psychedelics, that's entirely up to them. Meditation is a natural route to this experience, after all, the very powerful psychedelic DMT is already inside you.

I agree that whatever can be done with psychedelics can be done with meditation, because I have done it, so what's your point? Solitary

Quote from: Solitary on July 07, 2014, 04:45:06 PM
I agree that whatever can be done with psychedelics can be done with meditation, because I have done it, so what's your point? Solitary

Well, if you agree with that notion, then I suppose the point of that may be that perhaps endogenous DMT has to do with the fact that meditation can induce these experiences without in-taking exogenous psychedelics. The speculation of the main body of the OP, however, and I'll rephrase it, 'cause Hijiri Byakuren had a problem with my phrasing. It's that "God" when these early religions were just getting traction was originally a metaphor to describe this altered state. In other words, it's my opinion that Christ may have had this experience which I've been referring to as "Cosmic consciousness," and when he went on to share his experience, alas he became the founder of a religion. Likewise, Gautama, Muhammad, etc.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 04:10:05 PM
I'm not trying to get people to take psychedelics, but rather pique their interest in the topic of psychedelics and the experiences that they have the ability to launch people into.

Then you are a failure.

Also, that is a very pussy, weaking way of trying avoid admitting that you are doing precisely what I am saying, and then do exactly what I am saying. You aren't saying you are doing something different. You are just rephrasing it so it doesn't sound so bad. That makes you dishonest as well as weak.

Go away.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 04:50:18 PM
Well, if you agree with that notion, then I suppose the point of that may be that perhaps endogenous DMT has to do with the fact that meditation can induce these experiences without in-taking exogenous psychedelics. The speculation of the main body of the OP, however, and I'll rephrase it, 'cause Hijiri Byakuren had a problem with my phrasing. It's that "God" when these early religions were just getting traction was originally a metaphor to describe this altered state. In other words, it's my opinion that Christ may have had this experience which I've been referring to as "Cosmic consciousness," and when he went on to share his experience, alas he became the founder of a religion. Likewise, Gautama, Muhammad, etc.

You keep saying Buddha when you are absolutely wrong, Buddha never believed in what you are saying. I agree that it is probably true of other religious leaders, so what?

The Buddha declined to make any statement in regard to the ultimate divine Reality. All he would talk about was Nirvana, which is the name of the experience that comes to the totally selfless and one-pointed. […] Maintaining, in this matter, the attitude of a strict operationalist, the Buddha would speak only of the spiritual experience (mental and feeling.), not of the metaphysical entity presumed by the theologians of other religions, as also of later Buddhism, to be the object and (since in contemplation the knower, the known and the knowledge are all one) at the same time the subject and substance of that experience.

The idea of a Perennial Philosophy is central to the New Age Movement. The New Age movement is a Western spiritual movement that developed in the second half of the 20th century. Its central precepts have been described as "drawing on both Eastern and Western spiritual and metaphysical traditions and infusing them with influences from self-help and motivational psychology, holistic health, parapsychology, consciousness research and quantum physics". The term New Age refers to the coming astrological Age of Aquarius.

The New Age aims to create "a spirituality without borders or confining dogmas" that is inclusive and pluralistic.It holds to "a holistic worldview", emphasising that the Mind, Body and Spirit are interrelated and that there is a form of monism and unity throughout the universe. It attempts to create "a worldview that includes both science and spirituality" and embraces a number of forms of mainstream science as well as other forms of science that are considered fringe.

All of the universe is material, even energy, such as photons, you can't have a mind spirit or soul without a material object, even spacetime is a physical thing. Solitary

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/new_age_rel.htm

Introduction by Lewis Loflin

New Age Religion is not a religion at all, but a vast syncretism (or mixing) of numerous religious and philosophical ideas. This has been going on since the time of Alexander the Great, but was snuffed out under Christianity and its enforced dogma starting around 325 AD. Alexander's vast empire opened the door for Eastern religion and mysticism to move West, while Greek philosophy and reason moved East. Today the same process continues, but on a global scale in particular with the internet.

It has some similarities to ancient Gnosticism adopting both its methods and its individual nature. Most often rejecting reason and science That says it all doesn't?, New Age religion more than anything is emotional, filing in a void left by a secular culture and discontent with traditional religious beliefs. Emotional =irrational.

Modern environmentalism could be broadly classified into New Age religion because of its treatment as a pseudo-religion and deification of Nature. This is part of the continuing process of syncretism.

Introduction
The New Age Movement is in a class by itself. Unlike most formal religions, it has no holy text, central organization, membership, formal clergy, geographic center, dogma, creed, etc. They often use mutually exclusive definitions for some of their terms.

The New Age is in fact a free-flowing spiritual movement; a network of believers and practitioners who share somewhat similar beliefs and practices. Their book publishers take the place of a central organization; seminars, conventions, books and informal groups replace of sermons and religious services. Quoting John Naisbitt (1):

"In turbulent times, in times of great change, people head for the two extremes: fundamentalism and personal, spiritual experience...With no membership lists or even a coherent philosophy or dogma, it is difficult to define or measure the unorganized New Age movement.

But in every major U.S. and European city, thousands who seek insight and personal growth cluster around a metaphysical bookstore, a spiritual teacher, or an education center."

The New Age is definitely a heterogeneous movement of individuals; most graft some new age beliefs onto their regular religious affiliation. Recent surveys of US adults (2) indicate that many Americans hold at least some new age beliefs:
8% believe in astrology as a method of foretelling the future

7% believe that crystals are a source of healing or energizing power

9% believe that Tarot Cards are a reliable base for life decisions

About 1 in 4 believe in a non-traditional concept of the nature of God which are often associated with New Age thinking:

11% believe that God is "a state of higher consciousness that a person may reach"

8% define God as "the total realization of personal, human potential"

3% believe that each person is God
The group of surveys cited above (2) classify religious beliefs into 7 faith groups. Starting with the largest, they are: Cultural (Christmas and Easter) Christianity, Conventional Christianity, New Age Practitioner, Biblical (Fundamentalist, Evangelical) Christianity, Atheist/Agnostic,

Other, and Jewish, A longitudinal study from 1991 to 1995 shows that New Agers represent a steady 20% of the population, and are consistently the third largest religious group.

New Age teachings became popular during the 1970's as a reaction against what some perceived as the failure of Christianity and the failure of Secular Humanism to provide spiritual and ethical guidance for the future. Its roots are traceable to many sources: Astrology, Channeling, Hinduism, Gnostic traditions, Neo-paganism, Spiritualism, Theosophy, Wicca, etc.

The movement started in England in the 1960's where many of these elements were well established. Small groups, such as the Findhorn Community in Inverness and the Wrekin Trust formed. The movement quickly became international.
Early New Age mileposts in North America were a "New Age Seminar" ran by the Association for Research and Enlightenment, and the establishment of the East-West Journal in 1971. Actress Shirley MacLaine is perhaps their most famous current figure.

During the 1980's and 90's, the movement came under criticism from a variety of groups. Channeling was ridiculed; seminar and group leaders were criticized for the fortunes that they made from New Agers. Their uncritical belief in the "scientific" properties of crystals was exposed as groundless.

But the movement has become established and become a stable, major force in North American religion during the past generation. As the millennium comes to a close, the New Age is expected to expand, promoted by the social backlash against logic and science.

The "New Age" That Does Not Exist
Major confusion about the New Age has been generated by academics, counter-cult groups, Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians and traditional Muslim groups, etc. Some examples are:

Many of the above groups have dismissed Tasawwuf (Sufism) as a New Age cult. In reality, Sufism has historically been an established mystical movement within Islam, which has always existing in a state of tension with the more legalistic divisions within Islam. It has no connection with the New Age.

Some conservative Christians believe that a massive, underground, highly coordinated New Age organization exists that is infiltrating government, media, schools and churches. No such entity exists. Some conservative Christians do not differentiate among the Occult, Satanism, Wicca, other Neo-pagan religions.

And they seem to regard all as forms of Satanism who perform horrendous criminal acts on children. In fact, the Occult, Satanism, Neo-pagan religions are very different phenomena, and essentially unrelated.

Dr. Carl Raschke, professor of Religious Studies at the University of Denver describes New Age practices as the spiritual version of AIDS; it destroys the ability of people to cope and function." He describes it as "essentially, the marketing end of the political packaging of occultism...a breeding ground for a new American form of fascism."

New Age Beliefs
A number of fundamental beliefs are held my many New Age followers; individuals are encouraged to "shop" for the beliefs and practices that they feel most comfortable with:

Monism: All that exists is derived from a single source of divine energy.

Pantheism: All that exists is God; God is all that exists. This leads naturally to the concept of the divinity of the individual, that we are all Gods. They do not seek God as revealed in a sacred text or as exists in a remote heaven; they seek God within the self and throughout the entire universe.

Panentheism: God is all that exists. God is at once the entire universe, and transcends the universe as well.
Reincarnation: After death, we are reborn and live another life as a human. This cycle repeats itself many times. This belief is similar to the concept of transmigration of the soul in Hinduism.

Karma: The good and bad deeds that we do adds and subtracts from our accumulated record, our karma. At the end of our life, we are rewarded or punished according to our karma by being reincarnated into either a painful or good new life. This belief is linked to that of reincarnation and is also derived from Hinduism.

An Aura is believed to be an energy field radiated by the body. Invisible to most people, it can be detected by some as a shimmering, multi-colored field surrounding the body. Those skilled in detecting and interpreting auras can diagnose an individual's state of mind, and their spiritual and physical health.

Personal Transformation A profoundly intense mystical experience will lead to the acceptance and use of New Age beliefs and practices. Guided imagery, hypnosis, meditation, and (sometimes) the use of hallucinogenic drugs are useful to bring about and enhance this transformation.

Believers hope to develop new potentials within themselves: the ability to heal oneself and others, psychic powers, a new understanding of the workings of the universe, etc.

Later, when sufficient numbers of people have achieved these powers, a major spiritual, physical, psychological and cultural planet-wide transformation is expected.

Ecological Responsibility: A belief in the importance of uniting to preserve the health of the earth, which is often looked upon as Gaia, (Mother Earth) a living entity.

Universal Religion: Since all is God, then only one reality exists, and all religions are simply different paths to that ultimate reality. The universal religion can be visualized as a mountain, with many sadhanas (spiritual paths) to the summit.
Some are hard; others easy. There is no one correct path. All paths eventually reach the top. They anticipate that a new universal religion which contains elements of all current faiths will evolve and become generally accepted worldwide.
New World Order As the Age of Aquarius unfolds, a New Age will develop. This will be a utopia in which there is world government, and end to wars, disease, hunger, pollution, and poverty.

Gender, racial, religious and other forms of discrimination will cease. People's allegiance to their tribe or nation will be replaced by a concern for the entire world and its people.

The Age of Aquarius is a reference to the precession of the zodiac. The earth passes through each of the signs of the zodiac approximately every 24,000 years. Some believe that the earth entered the constellation Aquarius in the 19th Century, so that the present era is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

Others believe that it will occur at the end of the 20th century. It is interesting to note that the previous constellation changes were:

from Aries to Pisces the fish circa 1st century CE. This happened at a time when Christianity was an emerging religion, and many individuals changed from animal sacrifice in the Jewish temple to embracing the teachings of Christianity. The church's prime symbol at the time was the fish.

from Taurus to Aries the ram circa 2,000 BCE. This happened at a time when the Jews engaged in widespread ritual sacrifice of sheep and other animals in the Temple from Gemini to Taurus the bull circa 4,000 BCE. During that sign, worshiping of the golden calf was common in the Middle East.

New Age Practices
Many practices are common amongst New Agers. A typical practitioner is active in only a few areas:
Channeling A method similar to that used by Spiritists in which a spirit of a long dead individual is conjured up. However, while Spiritists generally believe that one's soul remains relatively unchanged after death, most channelers believe that the soul evolves to higher planes of existence.

They usually try to make contact with a single, spiritually evolved being. That being's consciousness is channeled through the medium and relays guidance and information to the group, through the use of the medium's voice.

Channeling has existed since the 1850's and many groups consider themselves independent of the New Age movement. The popular A Course in Miracles was channeled by Jesus through a New Age psychologist, Dr. Helen Schucman over an 8 year period.

Crystals Crystals are materials which has its molecules arranged in a specific, highly ordered internal pattern. This pattern is reflected in the crystal's external structure which typically has symmetrical planar surfaces.

Many common substances, from salt to sugar, from diamonds to quartz form crystals. They can be shaped so that they will vibrate at a specific frequency and are widely used in radio communications and computing devices. New Agers believe that crystals posses healing energy.

Meditating A process of blanking out the mind and releasing oneself from conscious thinking. This is often aided by repetitive chanting of a mantra, or focusing on an object.


New Age Music A gentle, melodic, inspirational music form involving the human voice, harp, lute, flute, etc. It is used as an aid in healing, massage therapy and general relaxation.

Divination The use of various techniques to foretell the future, including I Ching, Pendulum movements, Runes, Scrying, Tarot Cards.

Astrology The belief that the orientation of the planets at the time of one's birth, and the location of that birth predicts the individual's future and personality. Belief in astrology is common amongst New Agers, but definitely not limited to them.
Holistic Health This is a collection of healing techniques which have diverged from the traditional medical model. It attempts to cure disorders in mind, body and spirit and to promote wholeness and balance in the individual.

Examples are acupuncture, crystal healing, homeopathy, iridology, massage, various meditation methods, polarity therapy, psychic healing, therapeutic touch, reflexology, etc.

Human Potential Movement (a.k.a. Emotional Growth Movement) This is a collection of therapeutic methods involving both individualized and group working, using both mental and physical techniques. The goal is to help individuals to advance spiritually.

Examples are Esalen Growth Center programs, EST, Gestalt Therapy, Primal Scream Therapy, Transactional Analysis, Transcendental Meditation and Yoga.

The Canadian Census (1991) recorded only 1,200 people (0.005%) who identify their religion as being New Age. However, this in no way indicates the influence of new age ideas in the country. Many people identify with Christianity and other religions, but incorporate many new age concepts into their faith.
References Used:

J. Naisbitt and P. Aburdene, Megatrends 2000", William Morrow and Company, New York, NY (1990)

George Barnia, "The Index of Leading Spiritual Indicators", Word Publishing, Dallas TX, (1996)
Richard Kyle, "The Religious Fringe", InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove, IL (1993), Page 285-298

J.Gordon Melton, "Whither the New Age?", Chapter 35 of T. Miller, "America's Alternative Religions", SUNY Press, Albany, NY (1995)
Ref. http://www.religioustolerance.org/

Has everyone gone crazy?  :wall: Solitary

Quote from: the_antithesis on July 07, 2014, 04:51:34 PM
Then you are a failure.

Also, that is a very pussy, weaking way of trying avoid admitting that you are doing precisely what I am saying, and then do exactly what I am saying. You aren't saying you are doing something different. You are just rephrasing it so it doesn't sound so bad. That makes you dishonest as well as weak.

Go away.

I assure you that's not what I'm saying, because I also realize that these things can be potentially very dangerous, especially if you take them in the wrong set and setting. They're obviously not for everyone. If you're depressed, if you feel you have schizophrenic tendencies, if you're not willing to open up, then psychedelics are probably not for you.

They have tremendous therapeutic potential, tremendous potential to launch people into confrontations with aspects of their personality or their history that they're suppressing or denying. If you think you're of a stable mind, and believe in yourself enough that you can responsibly take on this endeavor, then of course, I'm not going to stop you. It's really up to the individual. I mean, if anyone's considering this, I'd emphasize caution. The first psychedelic trip is to the internet or the library, 'cause you want to at least have an idea of what you're getting yourself into, so looking up the LD-50 (lethal dose) or other important concepts you should be aware of is the responsible way to go about this. I'll leave a link to a video of Terence describing a heoric dose psilocybin and DMT experience, and also going over some concepts one should be aware of if they do ever consider using entheogens.

Quote from: Solitary on July 07, 2014, 04:58:56 PM
You keep saying Buddha when you are absolutely wrong, Buddha never believed in what you are saying. I agree that it is probably true of other religious leaders, so what?

The Buddha declined to make any statement in regard to the ultimate divine Reality. All he would talk about was Nirvana, which is the name of the experience that comes to the totally selfless and one-pointed. […] Maintaining, in this matter, the attitude of a strict operationalist, the Buddha would speak only of the spiritual experience (mental and feeling.), not of the metaphysical entity presumed by the theologians of other religions, as also of later Buddhism, to be the object and (since in contemplation the knower, the known and the knowledge are all one) at the same time the subject and substance of that experience.

I'm not saying Buddha admitted to a "metaphysical entity," I'm saying that he had  this very type of experience. That's all I'm saying. You keep inferring that I'm implying something else that I'm not.

Quote from: Solitary on July 07, 2014, 04:58:56 PM
The idea of a Perennial Philosophy is central to the New Age Movement. The New Age movement is a Western spiritual movement that developed in the second half of the 20th century. Its central precepts have been described as "drawing on both Eastern and Western spiritual and metaphysical traditions and infusing them with influences from self-help and motivational psychology, holistic health, parapsychology, consciousness research and quantum physics". The term New Age refers to the coming astrological Age of Aquarius.

Okay, you copied and pasted from Wiki. What's your point? I mean, what I'm getting at is maybe closer to neurotheology. But people associate all kinds of things of the "New Age" that aren't particularly a part of it. Sort of like your most recent post. I don't deny science and reason, and in fact, I try and think it terms of science and reason. That's why I mentioned that this might be closer to neurotheology, but I wouldn't even necessarily define it as that. Anytime there's a radical idea on Wiki, you're always going to find the article riddled with criticism. You may have also notice that they even reserve an entire section dedicated to "Criticism." There's always going to be the Victor Stengers of the world that reject such notions in the very same way someone might reject to the existence of the "ego death" phenomenon.

I'm referring to specifically the sort of Perennial Philosophy as espoused by Aldous Huxley. The very last link in the second post of the OP is also congruent with my view, it's a lecture given by Alan Watts on the subject of Huxley's Perennial Philosophy.

Quote from: Solitary on July 07, 2014, 04:58:56 PM
All of the universe is material, even energy, such as photons, you can't have a mind spirit or soul without a material object, even spacetime is a physical thing. Solitary

What about string theory or M-theory? Is the "11-dimensional hyperspace" of M-theory also a "physical thing"? You know, David Bohm had this idea of "Quantum Mind," he believed that the higher dimensional aspects of superstring theory had a direct correlate into physical reality. So, it may be that these non-manifest potentials and manifest realities are intimately intertwined, but of course, consciousness is still very much a mystery to neuroscience. So, you can't really say it's completely described through physicalism with the force of scientific proof, because there is none.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
Until then, it's not "bullshit," it's simply unproven.

That's right. Bullshit, until proven not bullshit.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 10:34:05 AMThat's all. The research simply hasn't been done. It's not as easy to gain permission (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRaXdfSmxEc&t=4m47s) to do these things as you might think.

You want to study endogenous psychodelics, right? That means you don't give your subjects the drug, but try to detect it in vivo under conditions where they self-generate. You don't need special permission to do that. You need special permission to give those persons the drug, but doing that would just confuse the issue and constitute scientific fraud.

Furthermore, yeah, you can use animal models, because although rats can't be commanded to meditate, you also suggest that DMT is produced during periods of hypoxia, which you can induce in a laboratory animal.

So, I say again, put up or shut up, hoss.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
Furthermore, I've also pointed out numerous times that the natural path, if it does exists (I believe it does, you doubt it), isn't the only path to inducing this phenomenon. Michael Hoffman goes over this at his website "EgoDeath.com" which I link in one of the initial paragraphs of the OP. John Allegro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK6Z0CGrXcY&t=53m) wrote about the possibility of Christianity holding its roots in the psychedelic mushroom.

If you're going to a mushroom, then it's no longer a case of endogenous DMT, is it?

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
So, just because you deny the natural route, doesn't dismiss the concept of Perennial Philosophy.

I deny Perennial Philosophy based on the fact that they all get basic facts about the universe and ourselves fucking wrong. There is no spirit; after centuries trying to detect it, we come up with a big fat zero. There is no good or evil as fundamental parts of the universe. When tested against reality using methodological investigation, the track record of religion is very poor.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
Perhaps you've heard of Jill Bolte Taylor's "Stroke of Insight (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU&t=6m31s)." Her experience with a stroke, if you listen to her describe it, if you didn't know any better, you'd think she was describing an LSD experience.

I do know better, and she's describing a loss of identity, not a hallucination. The sense of separation of yourself from your surroundings is localized to a specific region in the brain, which is the region of the brain she describes her pain coming from. That loss of identity occurs when that part of the brain stops functioning right, as happens in a stroke. A hallucinogen can do the same thing, but has other effects, so this really shows nothing.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 05:36:58 PM
That's right. Bullshit, until proven not bullshit.

No, no... Reasonable speculation until proven bullshit would be a more accurate way of putting it.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 05:36:58 PM
You want to study endogenous psychodelics, right? That means you don't give your subjects the drug, but try to detect it in vivo under conditions where they self-generate. You don't need special permission to do that. You need special permission to give those persons the drug, but doing that would just confuse the issue and constitute scientific fraud.

You'd have to perform the study during these states of mind speculated to have the DMT spike, i.e. the near-death experience. Now, I don't imagine it would be an easy test to produce, and I'm not sure how you think it's easy.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 05:36:58 PM
Furthermore, yeah, you can use animal models, because although rats can't be commanded to meditate, you also suggest that DMT is produced during periods of hypoxia, which you can induce in a laboratory animal.

I'd imagine the stress of a rat might be different than that of a human being. The whole point would be to do it on a human. I mean, I'm not sure if it was you or someone else, I'll go and check the backlog of posts here, but someone denied that possibility that the human pineal gland produced DMT when, in fact, N,N-DMT had been found in the pineal gland of a rat in a 2013 study.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 05:36:58 PM
So, I say again, put up or shut up, hoss.
If you're going to a mushroom, then it's no longer a case of endogenous DMT, is it?

You know, the full chemical name of psilocybin is O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. There's a DMT molecule attached at the end there. What I'm saying it may have been mushrooms in one case, as in Christianity, and endogenous DMT in another case, as in the experience of Guatama. It's not quite clear the method in which it was done or if it came about naturally by accident, but it's quite likely that they were, nevertheless, engaging in altered states of consciousness.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 05:36:58 PM
I deny Perennial Philosophy based on the fact that they all get basic facts about the universe and ourselves fucking wrong. There is no spirit; after centuries trying to detect it, we come up with a big fat zero. There is no good or evil as fundamental parts of the universe. When tested against reality using methodological investigation, the track record of religion is very poor.

I don't think Perennial Philosophy is claiming a fundamental "good" or "bad," or "spirit," or anything like that. I'm not quite sure why you think that's the claim. Y'ever read the "Tao of Physics"? I'd recommend that book. There are physicists that find that Buddhism is in complete congruence with the modern findings of physics today. Michio Kaku compares the "11 dimensional hyperspace" to the concept of "Brahman" in Hinduism. It seems like the mystic and the physicist have both arrived at the same conclusion, only the physicist has arrived at it intellectually through mathematical conception, and the mystic has arrived through it through intuition that experientially arises out of this profound altered state of consciousness.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 05:36:58 PM
I do know better, and she's describing a loss of identity, not a hallucination. The sense of separation of yourself from your surroundings is localized to a specific region in the brain, which is the region of the brain she describes her pain coming from. That loss of identity occurs when that part of the brain stops functioning right, as happens in a stroke. A hallucinogen can do the same thing, but has other effects, so this really shows nothing.

It shows "nothing" in the sense that we haven't figured it out yet. Like I said, the process by which psychedelics work is still a mystery to neuroscience, likewise consciousness itself is yet the biggest conundrum of all in neuroscience despite the fact that we all reside within in it and it is the most intimate part of our daily experience.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
No, no... Reasonable speculation until proven bullshit would be a more accurate way of putting it.

It's not 'reasonable speculation' if it's based on no data at all, and when the proposed mechanism is complete and utter bullshit.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
You'd have to perform the study during these states of mind speculated to have the DMT spike, i.e. the near-death experience. Now, I don't imagine it would be an easy test to produce, and I'm not sure how you think it's easy.

I'd imagine the stress of a rat might be different than that of a human being. The whole point would be to do it on a human.

Bullshit. As far as gross anatomy and pharmokinetics is concerned, rats are an excellent model. The way the human body deals with hypoxia is going to be quite ancient (evolutionarily speaking) and as such, rats would have very much the same mechanism.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
You know, the full chemical name of psilocybin is O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. There's a DMT molecule attached at the end there. What I'm saying it may have been mushrooms in one case, as in Christianity, and endogenous DMT in another case, as in the experience of Guatama. It's not quite clear the method in which it was done or if it came about naturally by accident, but it's quite likely that they were, nevertheless, engaging in altered states of consciousness.

Who the fuck cares about who used what? I'm sure that hallucinogens are and were used in many religions because they provide an experience beyond the norm of the mundane world. However, that has fuck all to do with whether or not this endogenous DMT theory of yours is true. It also has fuck all to do with whether or not they facilitated any sort of great insight into reality as claimed by you ninnies.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
I don't think Perennial Philosophy is claiming a fundamental "good" or "bad," or "spirit," or anything like that. I'm not quite sure why you think that's the claim.

Missing the point, have you? The claim of Perennial Philosophy is that the various religions had some deep connection and insight into reality. History and science has shown that any connection to reality gleaned by religion is tenuous and coincidental at best. It's hit or miss, mostly misses. Except for the most mundane and obvious observations, no religion has ever consistently produced any deep insight into the world, and it takes science to separate those "deep insights" from the useless crap.

This is why I don't buy the shit in Tao of Physics or any physics-woo book, or take the Michio Kaku comparision the "11 dimensional hyperspace" to the concept of "Brahman" in Hinduism to be anything more than an illustration. They're isolated hits in a whole fuckload of misses. That stinks of nothing but sheer coincidence to me â€" the guesses of religion are so across-the-board that it would be surprising if none of them got anything right.

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
It shows "nothing" in the sense that we haven't figured it out yet. Like I said, the process by which psychedelics work is still a mystery to neuroscience, likewise consciousness itself is yet the biggest conundrum of all in neuroscience despite the fact that we all reside within in it and it is the most intimate part of our daily experience.

Yes, and those are directly related: we're still investigating how consciousness works, so of course the mechanism of action of drugs that affect consciousness is going to be a mystery. You haven't said anything of interest. It's just throwing about fancy words in a vain attempt to convince us that you have any smarts to you at all.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
It's not 'reasonable speculation' if it's based on no data at all, and when the proposed mechanism is complete and utter bullshit.

You're wasting your breath Hakurei. Perineum Philosophy is the unassailable, God-given truth, and you will never convince this idiot otherwise.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 08, 2014, 07:01:35 AM
:lol: It's possible that I like you, Hiiri. Don't tell anyone.

What's the world coming to? :eek:

Quote from: Kafei on July 07, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
You know, the full chemical name of psilocybin is O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. There's a DMT molecule attached at the end there.

Good morning children! It's time for your lesson in organic chemistry. Before you go copy and pasting shit you don't understand into an internet forum in a vain attempt to appear intelligent lets go over some information about organic chemistry. So you said Psilocybin has a DMT molecule attached to the end there, lets take a quick look at the structure of psilocybin and DMT.

Psilocybin:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Psilocybn.svg/200px-Psilocybn.svg.png)
DMT:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DCP2uEaK5v8/UVxGB6ci32I/AAAAAAAAADU/p1uJlxtGtzU/s1600/dmtmolecule.jpg)

Whats the only difference? I'll give you a hint, it's found in our DNA backbone and has no end, that's right it's phosphate! So now we know that things don't "hang off the end" of phosphate because phosphate has no ends (because of the rotating bonds). You would typically describe the smaller molecule being attached to the larger one anyways. Kafei, you might like saying that the rest of your body is attached to your left hand but the rest of the world doesn't agree (left hand attached to body). Wasn't that fun? Now you know what a phosphate group is, go you!

QuoteWhat about string theory or M-theory? Is the "11-dimensional hyperspace" of M-theory also a "physical thing"? You know, David Bohm had this idea of "Quantum Mind," he believed that the higher dimensional aspects of superstring theory had a direct correlate into physical reality. So, it may be that these non-manifest potentials and manifest realities are intimately intertwined, but of course, consciousness is still very much a mystery to neuroscience. So, you can't really say it's completely described through physicalism with the force of scientific proof, because there is none.

Now that is not true that conscious is not shown by neurology and caused by a physical mechanism the brain. How this results in consciousness is a mystery---so how does your philosophy have an answer to that? I have a friend that is an engineering physicist that still believes in the supernatural, just because he is a scientists, does that make him right?

Quote

You keep saying you do not include Buddha in your evidence of the experience you talk about after I have shown you are wrong. Do you read the replies people have made to you and understand them? You keep saying that you don't think Buddha did what you say, but here are all the quotes from you that you hint at it being true:

QuoteI mention this because the very goal of these religions and all sects of Buddhism is essentially one and the same thing. It is an altered state of mind in which this insight manifests. Some monks spend their entire lives practicing disciplines in order to attain this insight, and I'd even wager many have died without ever approaching it, and perhaps they receive it at death.

You know, Buddhists don't go around in the fashion of Jehovah's witnesses telling people they "ought to believe." The point I was trying to make is that the goal of Buddhism is an experience in which you can have for yourself so you don't have to quibble over concepts inside a book. It's when you have to rely on a series of ideas that things can become vague, misconstrued, and this then leads to a vast array of misconception.

So, what Perennial Philosophy of the sort Aldous Huxley wrote about is suggesting is that religion my be a by-product of this phenomenon. That Christ, Muhammad, Gautama, etc. were all mortal men that sometime in their lifetime had this experience of "cosmic consciousness" and when they began to speak about their experiences, each became the founder of a religion. However, in the case of Christianity, Christ was pedestalized in that he was the only "divine being" vouchsafe this experience or at least this is how the religion is expressed today. It's realized in Buddhism that everyone is a potential Buddha, that we all have the potential for this experience.

I'll give you example below. Alan Watts describes the idea of "Brahman" or how it's also stated in Buddhism, "The Self." Listen out for 'The final Self.'

Alan Watts - What Buddhism's About
Well, in a nutshell, it's that there is a phenomenon in consciousness that most people, atheists and theists alike, have not experienced, and, in fact, do not even realize exists. Religion is a kind of byproduct of this phenomenon. In other words, the founders of the major religions who've undergone this experience, i.e. Muhammad, Christ, Gautama, etc.

My opinion is that Gautama was simply another human being who'd undergone this phenomenon in consciousness. I believe religions like Hinduism and Buddhism have surrounded themselves around this phenomenon. Hindus had always used ascetic means, but Gautama came along and realized all that was unnecessary, and so meditation as the relinquishing of volition became the discipline of the eight-fold path. I'm not talking about God, but instead a very God-like state of consciousness which Hindus referred to as "savikalpa samadhi" or simply "samadhi," Buddhists refer to it as "nirvana," but more contemporarily I believe "ego death" has become the preferred name for this phenomenon. There's also "Cosmic consciousness" which was used by Richard M. Bucke. Bucke also believed in a possible perennial philosophy, he goes into the experiences of historical figures in his magnum opus.

In other words, it's my opinion that Christ may have had this experience which I've been referring to as "Cosmic consciousness," and when he went on to share his experience, alas he became the founder of a religion. Likewise, Gautama, Muhammad, etc

QuoteCongratulations, you now hold the record for being the most disingenuous person at the forum.  :fU: Solitary

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
It's not 'reasonable speculation' if it's based on no data at all, and when the proposed mechanism is complete and utter bullshit.

Well, we know that the pineal gland produces DMT in rats, we haven't confirmed this in human beings. We know that psychedelics have been used for thousands of years, even longer before Hinduism, the grandfather religion, came about. I don't believe that this is unfounded speculation. I'm not the only person that holds this point-of-view, there's plenty others who've came to this conclusion based on reasonable speculation.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
Bullshit. As far as gross anatomy and pharmokinetics is concerned, rats are an excellent model. The way the human body deals with hypoxia is going to be quite ancient (evolutionarily speaking) and as such, rats would have very much the same mechanism.

Okay, if you think this avenue of research can be done with rodents, then maybe it can. However, the point is that it hasn't been done.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
Who the fuck cares about who used what? I'm sure that hallucinogens are and were used in many religions because they provide an experience beyond the norm of the mundane world. However, that has fuck all to do with whether or not this endogenous DMT theory of yours is true. It also has fuck all to do with whether or not they facilitated any sort of great insight into reality as claimed by you ninnies.

You've misconstrued this once again. Perhaps this is the reason you're so against this notion. I'm not referring to a theory based on endogenous experience of DMT. I'm saying that it may have been a naturally induced experience, it may not. Perhaps psychedelics played a role. The route in which these experienced were induced is irrelevant. The point to Perennial Philosophy is that the founders of the religion, by whatever means, had these type of experiences, they underwent a colossal altered state of consciousness. Then, as they went on to share their experiences, each one of them became the founder of a religion.

I'm not sure if you had a moment to listen to the last link I left in the OP, but Alan Watts goes over this, because these experiences, while they exhibit transpersonal motifs, they are nevertheless filtered through the unique personality of the individual, and Watts emphasizes this point. I'll repost the link here, and I recommend you listen to further understand Perennial Philosophy, because you seem to have misinterpreted what I've said thus far. Perhaps if Freud or Jung were around when LSD gained its mainstream attention, then all this would be proven, researched, etc., but unfortunately they did not.

Romain Rolland attempted to make Sigmund Freud aware of this phenomenon. He sent him a letter, and referred to this experience as the "oceanic feeling," but Freud only acknowledged it from an "outside" point-of-view, because he couldn't find the experience in himself. If you don't bother with meditation, psychedelics, etc. then there's no possibility for you to have this experience during your lifetime. Freud may have had it at death, but of course, that's speculation, but if he had, at that point it was, of course, too late.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
Missing the point, have you? The claim of Perennial Philosophy is that the various religions had some deep connection and insight into reality. History and science has shown that any connection to reality gleaned by religion is tenuous and coincidental at best. It's hit or miss, mostly misses. Except for the most mundane and obvious observations, no religion has ever consistently produced any deep insight into the world, and it takes science to separate those "deep insights" from the useless crap.

As far as I can discern, there are no misses. Any misses you think there is, is merely a misunderstanding or misconstrue on your part. In if you really want to get into this aspect of it, I don't mind. I'll try my best to explain the overlaps in theoretical physics and eastern wisdom, of course, from a layman's point-of-view meaning someone who's read Kaku's, Brian Greene's, Gödel's, Victor Stenger's material, etc.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
This is why I don't buy the shit in Tao of Physics or any physics-woo book, or take the Michio Kaku comparision the "11 dimensional hyperspace" to the concept of "Brahman" in Hinduism to be anything more than an illustration. They're isolated hits in a whole fuckload of misses. That stinks of nothing but sheer coincidence to me â€" the guesses of religion are so across-the-board that it would be surprising if none of them got anything right.

The "Tao of Physics" isn't a woo book. It's all based in reality. It's based on physics, it simply just takes an eastern philosophical view on the matter (no pun intended).

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 07, 2014, 09:20:03 PM
Yes, and those are directly related: we're still investigating how consciousness works, so of course the mechanism of action of drugs that affect consciousness is going to be a mystery. You haven't said anything of interest. It's just throwing about fancy words in a vain attempt to convince us that you have any smarts to you at all.

If you really want to challenge this notion, why not try and confirm the "ego death" phenomenon for yourself. I truly doubt you'd be able to come back and try and argue against it once you've had it for yourself. Would you consider taking ayahuasca? Would you consider taking psychedelic mushrooms? I'd wager you wouldn't even give it a single thought.

 :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :doh: In a major breakthrough in consciousness and psychedelic studies, Cottonwood Research Foundation has published a paper (soon to appear in the Journal Biomedical Chromatography)  documenting the presence of DMT in the brains of living rats.

For decades researchers have hypothesized that DMT may be one of the neurochemicals responsible for consciousness, dreams and visionary experiences. It’s certainly responsible for these and ever weirder experiences for those who have smoked it or taken Ayahuasca. DMT has been documented as naturally occurring in human blood, but this was not conclusive evidence that it is produced in the brain. DMT is structurally related to Serotonin, Melatonin and Pinoline, so the small traces in human blood could be an enzymatic breakdown product of these precursor molecules.

Now we have clear proof of DMT being manufactured in the living Pineal Glands of rats, and that the genes responsible for this exist in the Pineal Gland and Retina! The first implication is that Yes, it truly is a natural neurochemical responsible for modulating consciousness.  It is not a foreign substance to the body & mind of mammals. Also, if found in rats in this context then it is almost certain to function similarly in humans.

From the press release:


We’re excited to announce the acceptance for publication of a paper documenting the presence of DMT in the pineal glands of live rodents. The paper will appear in the journal Biomedical Chromatography and describes experiments that took place in Dr. Jimo Borjigin’s laboratory at the University of Michigan, where samples were collected. These samples were analyzed in Dr. Steven Barker’s laboratory at Louisiana State University, using methods that funding from the Cottonwood Research Foundation helped develop.

The pineal gland has been an object of great interest regarding consciousness for thousands of years, and a pineal source of DMT would help support a role for this enigmatic gland in unusual states of consciousness. Research at the University of Wisconsin has recently demonstrated the presence of the DMT-synthesizing enzyme as well as activity of the gene responsible for the enzyme in pineal (and retina). Our new data now establish that the enzyme actively produces DMT in the pineal.

The next step is to determine the presence of DMT in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), the fluid that bathes the brain and pineal. CSF is a possible route for pineal-synthesized DMT to effect changes in brain function. Successfully establishing DMT’s presence in this gland adds another link in the chain between the pineal and consciousness and opens new avenues for research.

- See more at: http://disinfo.com/2013/05/breakthrough-dmt-found-in-the-pineal-gland-of-live-rats/#sthash.h8mQGXnN.dpuf   :fU:

Quote from: Icarus on July 08, 2014, 08:13:22 AM
Good morning children! It's time for your lesson in organic chemistry. Before you go copy and pasting shit you don't understand into an internet forum in a vain attempt to appear intelligent lets go over some information about organic chemistry. So you said Psilocybin has a DMT molecule attached to the end there, lets take a quick look at the structure of psilocybin and DMT.

Psilocybin:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Psilocybn.svg/200px-Psilocybn.svg.png)
DMT:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DCP2uEaK5v8/UVxGB6ci32I/AAAAAAAAADU/p1uJlxtGtzU/s1600/dmtmolecule.jpg)

Whats the only difference? I'll give you a hint, it's found in our DNA backbone and has no end, that's right it's phosphate! So now we know that things don't "hang off the end" of phosphate because phosphate has no ends (because of the rotating bonds). You would typically describe the smaller molecule being attached to the larger one anyways. Kafei, you might like saying that the rest of your body is attached to your left hand but the rest of the world doesn't agree (left hand attached to body). Wasn't that fun? Now you know what a phosphate group is, go you!

I meant attached to the end of the chemical name. The skeletal structure of DMT is obviously a near relative to psilocybin. They're both tryptamine-based neurotransmitters, and they're both capable of producing this state of "ego death" which I've been at great pains to attempt to describe.

Quote from: Kafei on July 08, 2014, 06:19:22 PM
Its gotta be true maaaaan, cause like I saw stuff...

(http://i.qkme.me/3ol7so.jpg)

I'm still trying to figure out what the point of this topic is. The ego disappears in these extreme experiences because of the extreme energy going through the hindbrain, sensory-motor cortex and limbic brain. Especially in extreme fight-flight chemistry the prefrontal lobes are disengaged in order for the more instinctive parts of the brain to deal with the danger. During such a spiritual emergency however the sense danger is internally generated. Often the autonomic shock is many times greater than that which we could ever experience in the normal course of a human life. This is what causes PTSD that I have.

Just as a virgin only has a limited grasp of what it is to be human prior to having sex, so to those who have not experienced the ecstatic inner-conjunction or a Dark Night also have a limited perception of the height and depth of reality. These extreme events in consciousness make the ego more sober, respectful and humble because of this reorientation of what it is to be Human. This adjustment is largely biochemical. Nothing mystical here!

There is both vast expulsion of stored tension-energy and extensive reconstruction of the brains hardware that is brought about by these events. And it is this chemical, energetic and experiential reformation, which leads to what we know as Ego Death...whereas really it should be known as an expansion of the tight boundaries of the Ego to encompass a larger felt-sense of humanization. As an artist I have had this kind of experience with music and graphic art from an altered consciousness, where time stands still. I have started painting in the morning and came back the next morning with no time passing. So what!

What is Ego Death? Ego death represents the neurodetoxification of fossilized repression, removing the friction and futile cycling of the nervous system, allowing a higher pattern to form. . From our subjective point of view our self is composed of the parent=superego, adult=ego, child=id in ALL STATES. That is waking, dreaming and deep sleep, plus altered states. To this triad there is both the dark-bad-Thanatos (death) aspect, and the light-good-Eros. (erotic, orgasm) Coupled with the Unconscious, conscious and subconscious (physical body). And all these factors interact to create the self.

Once we are able to stabilize our consciousness beyond knee jerk reaction to environment, then we are able to cultivate energetic/consciousness conditions in which vast regions of our brain can fall into sync. I have had electroencephalograms flat line by meditation. A neurologist from California was called in to see how this could be done because no one in Phoenix had seen it before accept when someone was dead. It isn't really flat lined but real slow brain waves. The neurologists told them he had only seen it done in India by gurus. It took me three years of practice everyday with help from an expert to do this. So how is this in anyway cosmic consciousness and not a subjective experience? Woo! Woo! Solitary

Quote from: Solitary on July 09, 2014, 12:47:52 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what the point of this topic is.

Perineum philosophy. Can't you read titles? :P

Quote from: Kafei on July 08, 2014, 06:19:22 PM
I meant attached to the end of the chemical name. The skeletal structure of DMT is obviously a near relative to psilocybin. They're both tryptamine-based neurotransmitters, and they're both capable of producing this state of "ego death" which I've been at great pains to attempt to describe.

I was afraid you'd say that, this means we have to go back to the basics. It's time for another morning lesson in organic chemistry! You were using the full IUPAC name for DMT because it's longer and makes you sound more intelligent for using it right? The problem with that is, because you don't know anything about organic chemistry, you didn't know that IUPAC names convey structural information and aren't read from front to back like an English word or sentence.

Here's an example

Tryptamine:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Tryptamine.svg)

N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (adding two methyl groups onto the nitrogen, notice which part of the nomenclature changed):
(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/oxford/oxfordBiochemistry/0198529171.dimethyltryptamine.1.jpg)

See how that works? Now stop spouting woo and go learn some real science so you don't look like a tool that's gone full retard.

Quote from: Kafei on July 08, 2014, 06:19:22 PM
I meant attached to the end of the chemical name. The skeletal structure of DMT is obviously a near relative to psilocybin. They're both tryptamine-based neurotransmitters, and they're both capable of producing this state of "ego death" which I've been at great pains to attempt to describe.

Yeah, you're an idiot just trying to cover your ignorance. Your entire spiel reeks of it. Like your stoopid "illegal drug" canard preventing research on DMT. You need no special permission for investigating any endogenous substance, and even experimenting with non-endogenous DMT is just a matter of logistics... logistics that may not be worth it in the face of other research that may be done with the same money.

You even display ignorance of your own subject matter. You claim Perennial Philosophy is just about the founders of religion having these types of experiences and used them to establish their religions. Not according to the wiki page, which if nothing else gives you the basic gist of this Perennial Philosophy thing: it's not just about psychodelics sparking the creation of religion; it's about religions sharing in some sort of universal truth on which they are founded on. Sorry, but the track record of the claims of religion that have been tested reveals nothing more than blind guessing. Perennial Philosophy is woo because its basic claim has been definitively struck down, yet you idiots still think it's serious business.

Quote from: Kafei on July 08, 2014, 03:39:04 PM
As far as I can discern, there are no misses. Any misses you think there is, is merely a misunderstanding or misconstrue on your part. In if you really want to get into this aspect of it, I don't mind. I'll try my best to explain the overlaps in theoretical physics and eastern wisdom, of course, from a layman's point-of-view meaning someone who's read Kaku's, Brian Greene's, Gödel's, Victor Stenger's material, etc.

Your "discernment" has been suspect for a long time now, and is of no value to me. The track record of religion reveals nothing more than blind guessing. The religious are not tapping into a universal truth as claimed by Perennial Philosophy, a tradition you don't seem to know the basics of.

Victor Stenger does not advocate that any religion has ever had a handle on the truth as we know it, nor does Kaku or Greene. All parallels they draw are only used as tools for illustration, because they are speaking to a lay audiance and need some sort of device more graspable than the mathematics of QM to describe it. The only author on your list that had any sort of woo-ish beliefs is Kurt Gödel, but none of his woo-ish beliefs has been substantiated, only his brilliant mathematics.

Quote from: Kafei on July 08, 2014, 03:39:04 PM
The "Tao of Physics" isn't a woo book. It's all based in reality.

I've read some of it. It's a woo book. It added nothing to my understanding of how matter behaves.

Quote from: Kafei on July 08, 2014, 03:39:04 PM
If you really want to challenge this notion, why not try and confirm the "ego death" phenomenon for yourself. I truly doubt you'd be able to come back and try and argue against it once you've had it for yourself. Would you consider taking ayahuasca? Would you consider taking psychedelic mushrooms? I'd wager you wouldn't even give it a single thought.

Oh, are we advocating me breaking the law now? Fuck you. Even if I were to take you up on your offer? What would come out of it? An experience. A subjective, unmeasurable experience. I know enough about phsycology to know that the brain is capable of extreme wackiness; I've been on the brunt end of some of it myself. My experience would prove nothing.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 09, 2014, 01:09:40 AM
Perineum philosophy. Can't you read titles? :P

And how does reading titles tell me what point he is trying to make about it? Solitary

Quote from: Solitary on July 09, 2014, 12:47:52 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what the point of this topic is. The ego disappears in these extreme experiences because of the extreme energy going through the hindbrain, sensory-motor cortex and limbic brain. Especially in extreme fight-flight chemistry the prefrontal lobes are disengaged in order for the more instinctive parts of the brain to deal with the danger. During such a spiritual emergency however the sense danger is internally generated. Often the autonomic shock is many times greater than that which we could ever experience in the normal course of a human life. This is what causes PTSD that I have.

Just as a virgin only has a limited grasp of what it is to be human prior to having sex, so to those who have not experienced the ecstatic inner-conjunction or a Dark Night also have a limited perception of the height and depth of reality. These extreme events in consciousness make the ego more sober, respectful and humble because of this reorientation of what it is to be Human. This adjustment is largely biochemical. Nothing mystical here!

There is both vast expulsion of stored tension-energy and extensive reconstruction of the brains hardware that is brought about by these events. And it is this chemical, energetic and experiential reformation, which leads to what we know as Ego Death...whereas really it should be known as an expansion of the tight boundaries of the Ego to encompass a larger felt-sense of humanization. As an artist I have had this kind of experience with music and graphic art from an altered consciousness, where time stands still. I have started painting in the morning and came back the next morning with no time passing. So what!

What is Ego Death? Ego death represents the neurodetoxification of fossilized repression, removing the friction and futile cycling of the nervous system, allowing a higher pattern to form. . From our subjective point of view our self is composed of the parent=superego, adult=ego, child=id in ALL STATES. That is waking, dreaming and deep sleep, plus altered states. To this triad there is both the dark-bad-Thanatos (death) aspect, and the light-good-Eros. (erotic, orgasm) Coupled with the Unconscious, conscious and subconscious (physical body). And all these factors interact to create the self.

Once we are able to stabilize our consciousness beyond knee jerk reaction to environment, then we are able to cultivate energetic/consciousness conditions in which vast regions of our brain can fall into sync. I have had electroencephalograms flat line by meditation. A neurologist from California was called in to see how this could be done because no one in Phoenix had seen it before accept when someone was dead. It isn't really flat lined but real slow brain waves. The neurologists told them he had only seen it done in India by gurus. It took me three years of practice everyday with help from an expert to do this. So how is this in anyway cosmic consciousness and not a subjective experience? Woo! Woo! Solitary

It is a subjective experience. I never denied this. It may be ultimately biological, I never denied this either. What I'm saying that the altered state exist, and it was this very altered state in early man that laid the very basis for the soul. After these early religious figures had such experiences, each one of them went on to become a founder of a religion. No woo-woo involved. Where I think you may be misinterpreting what I'm saying is that when I say "mystical experience," I'm referring to a state of mind, not something "supernatural." When you see the word "mystical," you may be led to believe that I'm talking about something "divine" or "supernatural." I say this because the line you typed, "Nothing mystical about this." This is merely an old term that described or rather referred to this altered state of consciousness. Like I said, more contemporary terms are "Cosmic consciousness" or "ego death."

Quote from: Icarus on July 09, 2014, 08:41:46 AM
I was afraid you'd say that, this means we have to go back to the basics. It's time for another morning lesson in organic chemistry! You were using the full IUPAC name for DMT because it's longer and makes you sound more intelligent for using it right? The problem with that is, because you don't know anything about organic chemistry, you didn't know that IUPAC names convey structural information and aren't read from front to back like an English word or sentence.

Here's an example

Tryptamine: founders of the major religions had such
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Tryptamine.svg)

N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (adding two methyl groups onto the nitrogen, notice which part of the nomenclature changed):
(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/oxford/oxfordBiochemistry/0198529171.dimethyltryptamine.1.jpg)

See how that works? Now stop spouting woo and go learn some real science so you don't look like a tool that's gone full retard.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. The reason I use the full abbreviation (N,N-DMT) is to not confuse people with other forms of DMT, as in 5-MeO-DMT or Desoxymethyltestosterone which is an anabolic steroid that is, in fact, abbreviated DMT. While these two (N,N-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT) are also tryptamine-based, the effects of each one is vastly different from one another. I wouldn't type it to "sound intelligent." That'd be stupid. I said both psilocybin and N,N-DMT were tryptamine-based psychedelics, then you showed me the skeletal formula for a tryptamine and N,N-DMT. I'm not sure how this counters what I've said.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 08:53:47 AM
Yeah, you're an idiot just trying to cover your ignorance. Your entire spiel reeks of it. Like your stoopid "illegal drug" canard preventing research on DMT. You need no special permission for investigating any endogenous substance, and even experimenting with non-endogenous DMT is just a matter of logistics... logistics that may not be worth it in the face of other research that may be done with the same money.

Whether you need no special permission or not, the fact of the matter remains that a clinical trial has yet to be done to confirm or expel these speculations.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 08:53:47 AM
You even display ignorance of your own subject matter. You claim Perennial Philosophy is just about the founders of religion having these types of experiences and used them to establish their religions. Not according to the wiki page, which if nothing else gives you the basic gist of this Perennial Philosophy thing: it's not just about psychodelics sparking the creation of religion; it's about religions sharing in some sort of universal truth on which they are founded on. Sorry, but the track record of the claims of religion that have been tested reveals nothing more than blind guessing. Perennial Philosophy is woo because its basic claim has been definitively struck down, yet you idiots still think it's serious business.

I'm speaking of the Perennial Philosophy of the sort Aldous Huxley proposes, although what we may need is a new paradigm altogether. While people have been having these type of experiences since perhaps the dawn of man, if Terence is right, perhaps all the way back to our ancestral hominids. Nevertheless, today for neuroscience, this is an endeavor that hasn't been properly explored, it is a terra incognita. So, what we may need is a new language or neologisms that better reflect what precisely is going on.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 08:53:47 AM
Your "discernment" has been suspect for a long time now, and is of no value to me. The track record of religion reveals nothing more than blind guessing. The religious are not tapping into a universal truth as claimed by Perennial Philosophy, a tradition you don't seem to know the basics of.

To the contrary. You're the one that lacks the basis of this experience, because you've yet to have the experience yourself.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 08:53:47 AM
Victor Stenger does not advocate that any religion has ever had a handle on the truth as we know it, nor does Kaku or Greene. All parallels they draw are only used as tools for illustration, because they are speaking to a lay audiance and need some sort of device more graspable than the mathematics of QM to describe it. The only author on your list that had any sort of woo-ish beliefs is Kurt Gödel, but none of his woo-ish beliefs has been substantiated, only his brilliant mathematics.

There are striking parallels between eastern concepts and modern theoretical physics. I mean, we could go in the direction of describing this, but that would be off topic.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 08:53:47 AM
I've read some of it. It's a woo book. It added nothing to my understanding of how matter behaves.

The book is based on physics, of course it'll describe how matter behaves. -_-

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 08:53:47 AM
Oh, are we advocating me breaking the law now? Fuck you. Even if I were to take you up on your offer? What would come out of it? An experience. A subjective, unmeasurable experience. I know enough about phsycology to know that the brain is capable of extreme wackiness; I've been on the brunt end of some of it myself. My experience would prove nothing.

To the contrary. You don't know enough about "phsycology," because this phenomenon is still a mystery to it. You underestimate this experience. While it's true that it's a subjective experience, the experience itself is not necessarily out of the bounds of scientific study as, for instance, the studies done by the John Hopkins University (http://www.heffter.org/research-jhus.htm) which scientifically proved the potential of psilocybin to launch people into this mystical experience and of course the work of Dr. Rick Strassman. When Strassman's volunteers were interviewed after their experience of DMT taken intravenously, lo and behold, they all experienced similar phenomena from the describing of the visual iridescent fractal patterns to the overwhelming feeling of transcendence. A lot of people used the terms "fourth dimensional" or "beyond dimensionality" to describe their experience.

You don't have to break the law. Ayahuasca is handed out to tourists freely in Peru (http://reset.me/story/howpsychedelicssavedmylife/), and it's perfectly legal to use it there. There's also the Santo Daime Chruches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime) in Brazil that have made their way into the U.S. and Europe. So, if you're a member of this church, it's perfectly legal for you to partake in the use of ayahuasca. I mean, the fact this birthright is illegal is an outrage, but as Bill Hicks said, it may go hand in hand of how we're being suppressed. I truly believe if you actually take up this endeavor, you'd have a life-changing experience. You'd experience something that you'll probably spend the rest of your days pondering, but you don't have to take my word for it. You may not be curious now, but I believe that's only because you've never had this experience. I mean, that's just obvious because you grossly underestimate it. And isn't it strange that a naturally occurring neurotransmitter is also a schedule I illegal drug? The drugs speak for themselves, and don't need me to advocate them.

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
It is a subjective experience. I never denied this. It may be ultimately biological, I never denied this either. What I'm saying that there altered state exist, and it was this very altered state in early man that laid the very basis for the soul. After these early religious figures had such experiences, each one of them went on to become a founder of a religion. No woo-woo involved. Where I think you may be misinterpreting what I'm saying is that when I say "mystical experience," I'm referring to a state of mind, not something "supernatural." When you see the word "mystical," you may be led to believe that I'm talking about something "divine" or "supernatural." I say this because the line you typed, "Nothing mystical about this." This is merely an old term that described or rather referred to this altered state of consciousness. Like I said, more contemporary terms are "Cosmic consciousness" or "ego death."

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I said both psilocybin and DMT were tryptamine-based psychedelics, then you showed me the skeletal formula for a tryptamine and N,N-DMT. I'm not sure how this counters what I've said.
Whether you need no special permission or not the fact of the matter remains that a clinical trial has yet to be done to confirm or expel these speculations.
I'm speaking of the Perennial Philosophy of the sort Aldous Huxley proposes, although what we may need is a new paradigm altogether. While people have been having these type of experiences since perhaps the dawn of man, if Terence is right, perhaps all the way back to our ancestral hominids. Nevertheless, today for neuroscience, this is an endeavor that hasn't been properly explored, it is a terra incognita. So, what we may need is a new language or neologisms that better reflect what precisely is going on.
To the contrary. You're the one that lacks the basis of this experience, because you've yet to have the experience yourself.

There are striking parallels between eastern concepts and modern theoretical physics. I mean, we could go in the direction and describing this, but that would be off topic.
The book is based on physics, of course it'll describe how matter behaves. -_-
To the contrary. You don't know enough about "phsycology," because this phenomenon is still a mystery to it. You underestimate this experience. You don't have to break the law. Ayahuasca is handed out to tourist freely in Peru (http://reset.me/story/howpsychedelicssavedmylife/). I mean, the fact this birthright is illegal is an outrage, but as Bill Hicks said, it may go hand in hand of how we're being suppressed.

Bill Hicks - Our Illusion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz0WX6c6HVY)

Do you always change the common definition of words to fit your delusions?  Mystical 1: spiritual 2: relating to direct communion with God. You have already won the reward for being the most disingenuous person on the forum, you don't have to keep trying so hard to prove it, we all know what point your trying to make, even if you deny it. This has been fun, but like all delusional people you are blinded by your subjective experiences to see what's right in front of you in objective reality. Have a nice day! Woo! Woo! You have made my day with your nonsense, thanks! Solitary

Quote from: Solitary on July 09, 2014, 03:28:06 PM
Do you always change the common definition of words to fit your delusions?  Mystical 1: spiritual 2: relating to direct communion with God. You have already won the reward for being the most disingenuous person on the forum, you don't have to keep trying so hard to prove it, we all know what point your trying to make, even if you deny it. This has been fun, but like all delusional people you are blinded by your subjective experiences to see what's right in front of you in objective reality. Have a nice day! Woo! Woo! You have made my day with your nonsense, thanks! Solitary

William James actually popularized the use of the term "mystical experience," because he also had a very deep interest in this matter. There's several ways of defining it, you mentioned "direct communion with God," or some people feel real contact with a higher-order realities of which humans are not ordinarily aware.

Skeptics or scientists may hold that religious experience is an evolved feature of the human brain amenable to normal scientific study. I adhere to this. That's why I mentioned neurotheology. Neurotheology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotheology) aims to do precisely this. So, it's obvious these states of mind exist. Throughout history they've had various names. I'm not saying this is a "proof of God," that's why I tried to make it clear in the very first paragraph that I'm not proselytizing an "LSD God." What I'm saying in the mind of early man, they interpreted these experiences as "God." This colossal altered state were interpreted this way in history. Yes, we realize today that they're altered states, but in early man, they interpreted the state of mind as a  "communion or merging with God." The experience itself is of God-like proportions. I'm not sure if you've ever had a psychedelic experience, but I wouldn't underestimate this subjective experience, especially if you have never done it before.

You seem more hell bent on calling me delusional and announce this as "woo-woo" when if you had just but taken a moment to truly grasp what I'm attempting to convey, then you'd realize there's absolutely no woo involved. I suppose this is a common close-minded reaction to this stuff. Amber Lyon and Joe Rogan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbGVEXR1GQs&t=2h16m45s) talk about this in a podcast she appeared in with him.

As a person on psych meds, I can tell you: You have to accept that drugs change your perception, not reality itself, whichever size that may be.

It's all fine and dandy until you start to extrapolate either.

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
Whether you need no special permission or not, the fact of the matter remains that a clinical trial has yet to be done to confirm or expel these speculations.

Well, that's just too fucking bad for you.

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
I'm speaking of the Perennial Philosophy of the sort Aldous Huxley proposes, although what we may need is a new paradigm altogether. While people have been having these type of experiences since perhaps the dawn of man, if Terence is right, perhaps all the way back to our ancestral hominids. Nevertheless, today for neuroscience, this is an endeavor that hasn't been properly explored, it is a terra incognita. So, what we may need is a new language or neologisms that better reflect what precisely is going on.

So what you are claiming as Perennial Philosophy isn't actually Perennial Philosophy as we understand it from consulting outside sources of what the hell it is. Nice job confusing the issue, bro. Or is this more goalpost moving of yours, now that you have been caught with your pants down?

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
To the contrary. You're the one that lacks the basis of this experience, because you've yet to have the experience yourself.

Just like a Jesus freak says I have to experience God in order to believe him. Go fuck yourself with a cactus.

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
There are striking parallels between eastern concepts and modern theoretical physics.

Not when you actually examine them closely, they aren't.

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
The book is based on physics, of course it'll describe how matter behaves. -_-

Do you actually know your physics? Do you have a degree in physics at all? I don't think you do.

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
To the contrary. You don't know enough about "phsycology," because this phenomenon is still a mystery to it. You underestimate this experience. While it's true that it's a subjective experience, the experience itself is not necessarily out of the bounds of scientific study as, for instance, the studies done by the John Hopkins University (http://www.heffter.org/research-jhus.htm) which scientifically proved the potential of psilocybin to launch people into this mystical experience and of course the work of Dr. Rick Strassman. When Strassman's volunteers were interviewed after their experience of DMT taken intravenously, lo and behold, they all experienced similar phenomena from the describing of the visual iridescent fractal patterns to the overwhelming feeling of transcendence. A lot of people used the terms "fourth dimensional" or "beyond dimensionality" to describe their experience.

In other words, a typical hallucinatory experience, as expected for DMT. However, all it shows is that the "mystical experience" is thoroughly grounded in natural causes â€" the introduction of a drug that causes a change in how neurons fire.

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
You don't have to break the law. Ayahuasca is handed out to tourists freely in Peru (http://reset.me/story/howpsychedelicssavedmylife/), and it's perfectly legal to use it there. There's also the Santo Daime Chruches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime) in Brazil that have made their way into the U.S. and Europe. So, if you're a member of this church, it's perfectly legal for you to partake in the use of ayahuasca.

So let me get this straight: I have to either join a church of some kind, with the potential of them getting to me when I'm in a potentially mentally vunerable state, or I have to spend thousands of dollars to go to another country? Yeah, this is realistic. Go sit on a long, thin pole.

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. The reason I use the full abbreviation (N,N-DMT) is to not confuse people with other forms of DMT, as in 5-MeO-DMT or Desoxymethyltestosterone which is an anabolic steroid that is, in fact, abbreviated DMT. While these two (N,N-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT) are also tryptamine-based, the effects of each one is vastly different from one another. I wouldn't type it to "sound intelligent." That'd be stupid. I said both psilocybin and N,N-DMT were tryptamine-based psychedelics, then you showed me the skeletal formula for a tryptamine and N,N-DMT. I'm not sure how this counters what I've said.

Clap, clap. You completely ignored the errors you made and tried to change the original argument, not even close to your best strawman yet.

I'm arguing that you have a lot to learn before you can be taken seriously. Nothing you have provided has changed that view in the slightest.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 10:02:24 PM
Well, that's just too fucking bad for you.

That's why all the speculatory reasoning. It's because we don't have physical evidence yet, however the evidence we've found so farm seems to be indicative of Strassman's speculation. Of course, we won't know for sure until the trials are run. I'd say it's a matter of time now until someone actually proves that this is so.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 10:02:24 PM
So what you are claiming as Perennial Philosophy isn't actually Perennial Philosophy as we understand it from consulting outside sources of what the hell it is. Nice job confusing the issue, bro. Or is this more goalpost moving of yours, now that you have been caught with your pants down?

I'm not confusing the issue. Just as neurotheology is attempting to define all this religious phenomena in scientific terms, likewise a form of Perennial Philosophy that is sharpened by neuroscience and polished in terms of scientific explanations is what we'd ultimately want to aim for. It would be the ideal Perennial Philosophy, and of course, it would simply be reformed to better reflect reality, but without necessarily changing the essence of what it is, you see. So, this is not moving the goalpoast, the goalposts stay exactly where they are. However, this concept is not a new concept. It made its first appearance in the literature back in the 15th century. While there are different variations, each concept sort of holds that the essence of all religion is basically one and the same truth. The sort of angle with Perennial Philosophy that I'm coming from is the sort that William James and Aldous Huxley spoke about, that this "insight" or "truth" is based in "religious experience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy#Religious_experience)."

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 10:02:24 PM
Just like a Jesus freak says I have to experience God in order to believe him. Go fuck yourself with a cactus.

No, this is not like that, and I describe why that is in the OP. The difference is that the Jesus freak is equating this "experience of God" to something subtle while retaining an ordinary state of consciousness. So, to the Jesus freak who exclaims, "I feel God in my heart," a line that would have Matt Dillahunty retort, "So, maybe you should go see a doctor." That, of course, is NOT what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a colossal altered state of consciousness by which if you were to undergo you'd realize without an iota of doubt that what you were experiencing is orders of magnitude different from your ordinary state of consciousness, not something subtle like the "Jesus freak." In other words, you don't want to metaphysicize heartburn.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 10:02:24 PM
Not when you actually examine them closely, they aren't.

I don't take it you've examined this closely. With further examination, you'd find that they are.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 10:02:24 PM
Do you actually know your physics? Do you have a degree in physics at all? I don't think you do.

I'd wager that you don't have a degree in physics, either. I'm sure most people that frequent this forum are layman.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 10:02:24 PM
In other words, a typical hallucinatory experience, as expected for DMT. However, all it shows is that the "mystical experience" is thoroughly grounded in natural causes â€" the introduction of a drug that causes a change in how neurons fire.

I don't think anyone enters this state of mind with an expectation of what's going to occur. DMT does not provide ‘an’ experience which you analyze. Nothing so tidy goes on. The syntactical machinery of description undergoes some kind of hyperdimensional inflation, instantly. And then you cannot tell yourself what it is that you understand. In other words, what DMT does can’t be downloaded into as low dimensional a language as English. One toke [of DMT] away is this absolutely reality-dissolving, catagory-reconstructing, mind-boggling possibility. And I feel like this is a truth that has to be told. Sure, they may be grounded in natural causes, but the entire point is that this is the underlying unity of all these religions.

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on July 09, 2014, 10:02:24 PM
So let me get this straight: I have to either join a church of some kind, with the potential of them getting to me when I'm in a potentially mentally vunerable state, or I have to spend thousands of dollars to go to another country? Yeah, this is realistic. Go sit on a long, thin pole.

*mod hat on*
Promoting illegal activities is, well, against the law and could have serious consequences on the forum. Don't do it again. And don't even try to complain about this edit.


I'm not promoting illegal activities. What people decide to do with their bodies is up to them, but yes, unfortunately, Hakurei, if you want to take up this endeavor in a legal fashion, you're going to have to travel where these things are legal, otherwise of course, the fastest route is an illegal one, and apparently that can't be discussed here or you'll be censored. Now, I thought atheist forums were supposed to be a latitudinarian area for discussion. That's obviously not the case.

Quote from: Icarus on July 09, 2014, 11:26:39 PM
Clap, clap. You completely ignored the errors you made and tried to change the original argument, not even close to your best strawman yet.

I'm arguing that you have a lot to learn before you can be taken seriously. Nothing you have provided has changed that view in the slightest.

There is absolutely no strawman. I'd maintain that you misunderstand the argument.

Typical bullshit fallback: When they continually disagree, they "just don't understand." Couldn't possibly be anything else, like perineum philosophy being full of more holes than cottage cheese.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 09, 2014, 11:57:08 PM
Typical bullshit fallback: When they continually disagree, they "just don't understand." Couldn't possibly be anything else, like perineum philosophy being full of more holes than cottage cheese.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk. Titty sprinkles.

There's a woman in the audience of the Alan Watts talk that I link at the very bottom of the 2nd post of the OP that accuses Watts of pulling a strawman argument, and I believe that's what Icarus has done here. But it was because the woman misunderstood Watts in the very same fashion Icarus misunderstands Perennial Philosophy. So, it's not a bullshit fallback, and there aren't any holes.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 10, 2014, 03:01:42 AM
*sigh*

(http://giant.gfycat.com/SaneMeekCuckoo.gif)

The problem with the atheistic mind-set is that it's dualistic. Atheists seem to have this notion that anyone who doesn't hold an atheistic point-of-view is somehow in the opposition, and therefore there is no discussion, there is only debate. It becomes a game, and so you get images like this when in fact no one truly had a retort for Perennial Philosophy. So, the atheist resorts to this "I win, you lose" dualistic mentality. Did you make that Gif yourself or did you find it on the net?

And now he's just making shit up I never posted. Classy.

You deleted your post, but not before I quoted you.

Quote from: Kafei on July 10, 2014, 03:11:35 AM
You deleted your post, but not before I quoted you.

I don't delete posts, son.

And next time you try to imitate the image macros I post, try using something that doesn't take a decade to load.

Take forever to load? Wtf internet connection do you have, 56k?! That's your image! I quoted you. If you didn't delete your post, then I'm not sure what happened to it, but it was something you posted.

Quote from: Kafei on July 10, 2014, 03:15:47 AM
Take forever to load? Wtf internet connection do you have, 56k?! That's your image! I quoted you. If you didn't delete your post, then I'm not sure what happened to it, but it was something you posted.

I live out in the country with a 2mbps internet connection, and there's no way I'd post a gif that takes me a full minute to load. I don't know what you're attempting to accomplish with this, but stop lying.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 10, 2014, 03:21:15 AM
I live out in the country with a 2mbps internet connection, and there's no way I'd post a gif that takes me a full minute to load. I don't know what you're attempting to accomplish with this, but stop lying.

Whatever, dude. I don't really care. It's not like it was any form of rebuttal, anyway. I've been honest in this forum so far, you're the one with a Gif in your signature and now you're denying the gif that you posted? I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but... don't try and turn this around calling me dishonest.

Quote from: Kafei on July 10, 2014, 03:27:09 AM
Whatever, dude. I don't really care. It's not like it was any form of rebuttal, anyway. I've been honest in this forum so far, you're the one with a Gif in your signature and now you're denying that the gif that you posted? I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish, but... don't try and turn this around calling me dishonest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5iqYuFmzqg

Time for you to go on the ignore list.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 10, 2014, 03:28:10 AM
Time for you to go on the ignore list.

-_- First a Frozen GIF and now Toy Story? You've got to be fucking kidding me. *facepalm*

Quote from: Kafei on July 09, 2014, 11:51:53 PM
*mod hat on*
Promoting illegal activities is, well, against the law and could have serious consequences on the forum. Don't do it again. And don't even try to complain about this edit.


I'm not promoting illegal activities. What people decide to do with their bodies is up to them, but yes, unfortunately, Hakurei, if you want to take up this endeavor in a legal fashion, you're going to have to travel where these things are legal, otherwise of course, the fastest route is an illegal one, and apparently that can't be discussed here or you'll be censored. Now, I thought atheist forums were supposed to be a latitudinarian area for discussion. That's obviously not the case.

*mod hat on*
Ah, so you're complaining now, in spite of a clear directive? Off you go to a permanent vacation from the forum. Bye, asshole.

Apparently Kafei doesn't understand how the internet works. Good riddance.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! And I thought Casparov was annoying. Talk about a guy with a one track mind. Solitary

You know, the more I think about Kafei's directive to take drugs and experience things for myself, the more it disturbs me. I mean, one of his main points was that we didn't know much about how mushrooms and shit fuck your shit up for lack of study, yet he was perfectly okay with advising me to take that crap to find out for myself what it was all about â€" without any guidelines for safety or efficacy. Yeah, no thanks.

kind of like saying we should go get raped to see what it's like.

Quote from: IKnowTheTruth8874 on July 15, 2014, 01:18:45 AM
Oh my, so this is how you nasty disbelievers talk to other people who are polite, and want to present a higher philosophy to you? You people are absolutely awful.

Evidence?

-Nam

Quote from: IKnowTheTruth8874 on July 15, 2014, 01:39:51 AM
Your mother was evidence last night when she got gangbanged by atheist heathens in an alleyway.

Did she enjoy it?

-Nam

Quote from: IKnowTheTruth8874 on July 15, 2014, 01:42:21 AM
Yeah, because she's a stupid WHORE and that's what she does when you are not talking care of her because of her disease :)

Do you actually believe you're pissing me off? You're not. You're incompetent. I see incompetence as a mental disability, and I do not get angry with the mentally disabled, like yourself.

Try another approach.

-Nam