A friend of mine asked a really great question directed at theists:
QuoteIf a Christian agrees with the scientific theory of evolution that would make the story of Adam and Eve just a silly story for them. But if they also believe that the Jesus of the bible was real then what was the point of his existence if Adam and Eve never existed and where would sin fit in? No sin, no Jesus?
Of course, the nonbelievers on here already know it's silly to believe in any of the christian story, but I thought I'd share because I thought it was a good question for theists.
Cognitive dissonance.
Quote from: stromboli on June 22, 2014, 01:02:47 PM
Cognitive dissonance.
Yeah. I get that, but when I ask people about what they believe in person (not the fundies, the more casual believers) its like they don't even know what they believe. I understand that a fundie can have cognitive dissonance. But when someone can't even explain what they believe, that is what confuses me.
You and me both! Solitary
Obviously they don't want Godless-AIDS.
Sent from Monster Island. Titty sprinkles.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 22, 2014, 01:09:41 PM
Yeah. I get that, but when I ask people about what they believe in person (not the fundies, the more casual believers) its like they don't even know what they believe. I understand that a fundie can have cognitive dissonance. But when someone can't even explain what they believe, that is what confuses me.
Put it simply, they don't want to make the decision. I could've lived my life as a Mormon but didn't because my personality is not one to live a lie. but I know several that do, simply because it is easier than making a choice. It isn't even Pascal's Wager, it is just following the path of least resistance.
Quote from: stromboli on June 22, 2014, 01:36:41 PM
Put it simply, they don't want to make the decision. I could've lived my life as a Mormon but didn't because my personality is not one to live a lie. but I know several that do, simply because it is easier than making a choice. It isn't even Pascal's Wager, it is just following the path of least resistance.
OK. Yeah. That makes sense
Sent from your mom
Or..... Actual thought and reason is not a requirement. Just nod your head and praise Jayzez.. :pray: :pray:
Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 22, 2014, 01:39:09 PM
OK. Yeah. That makes sense
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Explain that to claytojar. He thinks adhering to the status quo is bold and brave.
Quote from: stromboli on June 23, 2014, 03:20:59 PM
Explain that to claytojar. He thinks adhering to the status quo is bold and brave.
clay to jar's head is a jar full of clay.
Sent from your mom
What does this thread have to do with "going all the way"?
Anyway, regarding no sin - no jesus.
Isn't the old adage: "If I don't sin, poor old Jesus died for nothin."
Quote from: Jagare on June 30, 2014, 08:38:29 PM
What does this thread have to do with "going all the way"?
Anyway, regarding no sin - no jesus.
Isn't the old adage: "If I don't sin, poor old Jesus died for nothin."
Without Adam and Eve, there is no original sin. Without original sin, there is no sin you can commit in the first place.
in other words, jesus is there to forgive you for the sins that adam and eve handed down to you.
Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 30, 2014, 08:47:27 PM
Without Adam and Eve, there is no original sin. Without original sin, there is no sin you can commit in the first place.
in other words, jesus is there to forgive you for the sins that adam and eve handed down to you.
What christian doesn't believe in Adam and Eve? I've never met one.
Still unsure what
"Why not go all the way?" means ???
Quote from: PickelledEggs on June 22, 2014, 12:34:05 PM
A friend of mine asked a really great question directed at theists:
Of course, the nonbelievers on here already know it's silly to believe in any of the christian story, but I thought I'd share because I thought it was a good question for theists.
Actually, you are all missing something here. Every Catholic I know of believes that Adam and Eve were real, and so is evolution. This is one of the "god of the gaps" things they do. We are all familiar with the theistic apologetic notion that every fossil found just created 2 gaps instead of filling one. Since it is impossible to have every intermediary fossil between our ancestors and ourselves, there is always room for Adam and Eve.
As it was explained to me when I asked this question as a teenager, what happened is evolution took place up to a certain point, then God twiddled his fingers and took the "not quite human" ancestor and made the first "modern" humans in one magical evolutionary leap. Tada! Adam and Eve.
So there you go. It is a sort of cognative dissidence, but not quite what you guys seemed to be explaining. It's more like a partial misunderstanding of how evolution works.
At any rate, just thought I'd put that out there. Accepting evolution does not require them to reject Adam and Eve. And really, I don't mind the theists who don't deny science so much. I know I know, the moderates always support the infrastructure to create extremists, but still. Every single person who accepts evolution (and vaccines, and global climate change) should be patted on the back and considered our allies, IMO.
Quote from: Aroura33 on July 01, 2014, 12:29:29 AM
Actually, you are all missing something here. Every Catholic I know of believes that Adam and Eve were real, and so is evolution. This is one of the "god of the gaps" things they do. We are all familiar with the theistic apologetic notion that every fossil found just created 2 gaps instead of filling one. Since it is impossible to have every intermediary fossil between our ancestors and ourselves, there is always room for Adam and Eve.
As it was explained to me when I asked this question as a teenager, what happened is evolution took place up to a certain point, then God twiddled his fingers and took the "not quite human" ancestor and made the first "modern" humans in one magical evolutionary leap. Tada! Adam and Eve.
So there you go. It is a sort of cognative dissidence, but not quite what you guys seemed to be explaining. It's more like a partial misunderstanding of how evolution works.
At any rate, just thought I'd put that out there. Accepting evolution does not require them to reject Adam and Eve. And really, I don't mind the theists who don't deny science so much. I know I know, the moderates always support the infrastructure to create extremists, but still. Every single person who accepts evolution (and vaccines, and global climate change) should be patted on the back and considered our allies, IMO.
I don't mind a theist that doesn't deny or reject scientific advances either. It still boggles my mind though. And I did think it was an interesting question.
Quote from: Jagare on July 01, 2014, 12:18:46 AM
What christian doesn't believe in Adam and Eve? I've never met one.
Still unsure what "Why not go all the way?" means ???
I was referring to: If a theist believes in some/ most of the bible, why not just believe in the whole thing? Or if a theist is rejecting parts of the bible, what is stopping them from rejecting the whole thing.
Quote from: Aroura33 on July 01, 2014, 12:29:29 AMEvery Catholic I know of believes that Adam and Eve were real, and so is evolution.
Unscientific sampling method to be sure, but I was raised Catholic and don't know any Catholics who believe Adam and Eve were real people. They believe that God guided evolution and at some point gave humans souls.
So, yeah, sorry Thag, you missed getting a soul by one generation. Sucks to be you.
It was Adam & Steve Jesusdamnit!
-Nam
Quote from: Nam on July 01, 2014, 02:01:21 AM
It was Adam & Steve Jesusdamnit!
-Nam
I don't think I know an Adam....
(btw, my name is Steve) :lol:
Quote from: Aroura33 on July 01, 2014, 12:29:29 AM
Every single person who accepts evolution (and vaccines, and global climate change) should be patted on the back and considered our allies, IMO.
No, not really. People who accept evolution (and whatever other scientific truth) and still are theists are NOT necessarily our allies. Many of those people still want to have religion-based laws, deny women abortion and contraception rights, teach religion in schools, etc. They're still our enemies. Or, better said, society's enemies.
Quote from: DunkleSeele on July 01, 2014, 02:33:53 AM
No, not really. People who accept evolution (and whatever other scientific truth) and still are theists are NOT necessarily our allies. Many of those people still want to have religion-based laws, deny women abortion and contraception rights, teach religion in schools, etc. They're still our enemies. Or, better said, society's enemies.
This.
Sent from your mom
Quote from: PickelledEggs on July 01, 2014, 02:29:07 AM
I don't think I know an Adam....
(btw, my name is Steve) :lol:
Ummm...
It was Terry and Steve!!!!
-Nam
Quote from: PickelledEggs on July 01, 2014, 01:27:53 AMIf a theist believes in some/ most of the bible, why not just believe in the whole thing? Or if a theist is rejecting parts of the bible, what is stopping them from rejecting the whole thing.
There is not nor has ever been a person who has ever believed the entirety of the Bible. Believers always pick and choose. And that's actually a good thing, considering its contents. And even if they didn't have that habit, the Bible contradicts itself in places - a believer cannot affirm one verse without repudiating another, so full assent is a logical impossibility.
And I think we both know why some verses are shouted from the pulpits and others quietly forgotten. These are the ones that appeal to a believer emotionally, fit with their view of the world, and have not (yet) fallen so far behind modernity that they're utterly unconscionable.
Quote from: Aurora33Every single person who accepts evolution (and vaccines, and global climate change) should be patted on the back and considered our allies, IMO.
No one deserves praise for simply not being a denialist nor should one be counted an ally before proving it.
And personally, I find it a tad unseemly when theists debate evolution and the focus is on whether or not it's compatible with the Bible, rather than whether or not it's evidenced. I'd half expect these sagacious theologians to float in midair while debating whether or not gravity is biblical.
Politics makes for such strange bedfellows. And suppose it is a worthwhile alliance, though I wonder how effective it is to fight superstition hand in hand with the superstitious.
It can be very hard for people to abandon a lifetime of beliefs, especially if there is the chance of rejection by their family and friends. No matter how many doubts they might have, they might feel that going that final step--abandoning belief in the Bible entirely--is not worth the risk of losing their loved ones. Or they may still have that fear of hellfire so deeply embedded that they can't shake it off. Doubting parts of the Bible is one thing--one can always be forgiven for that--but completely disregarding it is tantamount to not believing in God, and that means eternal torture in hell.