Honestly, this doesn't surprise me in the least. I will go ahead and copy-pasta my facebook question, so if it seems abit out of character (lack of vulgarities and all that good shit), that's why :P.
People actually support what this guy did, or at least say, "It was justified"?
So I have a question for anyone who want's to put their thoughts on the issue; do you think this guy would have been frustrated to the point he would do something like this if we didn't make such a stupid to-do about being sexually active, if we didn't shame people for not getting laid?
I am 100% in favour of people being able to sleep with whoever they like so long as both are consenting and 100% in favour in getting rid of all these stupid stigmas and taboos and double-standards about sexuality. But this belief that not being sexually active makes you less of a person (man, anyways) that is rampant in (male?) society is not contributing to a healthy mindset amongst Americans; to the contrary it is just a knee-jerk reaction to sexual taboos that is just as bad.
Being sexually liberated means people can have as much sex OR as little sex as they desire without being judged for it by others, because at the end of the day it is none of your damn business what consenting adults do with each other. To me this is just another unhealthy mindset that is only holding society back.
----
To me this is something that really holds men back, because this is something we face from the time we are in lower-grade school. I understand the mindset in junior high, maybe high school, but even into the mid-twenties I am seeing it. What is wrong with men?
There is no excuse for killing innocent people. So those defending the guy have no leg to stand on.
I agree with you Shiranu. Solitary
I don't think that this case has anything to do with women, sex, bullying, or any of the other excuses that were in Elliot Rodger's manifesto.
He was mentally ill with access to knives and guns. This wasn't something that happened overnight, he planned this for five years. That's five years where someone could have noticed something, could have taken some kind of action that might have helped him and prevented this.
They brought this up on NPR yesterday. Supporting or understanding this guy's actions is indeed a strange reaction. He killed people. You don't kill others because you can't get sex. That's a crazy notion. He was nuts and those that support him are nuts too. And given the number of crazy people that exist, it should not be surprising that people support him.
This has been a very very difficult story for me to read and comprehend. I think it speaks to the very foundation of our culture, so it's not going away any time soon.
The comments in the articles I've read on this story are filled with "WELL? Can you blame him" types of replies. It's not just the marginalized people who justify this sort of behavior, this is what I find so very deeply disturbing. I've also read an awful lot about how it's not just that he hated women because he killed more men than women ("and women seem to be ignoring this important fact").
I can only hope that this story and the way too many others like it will at least put a scratch in the surface of the pervasive and subtle nature of misogyny in human cultures.
Yeah. It's far too much a part of our fabric. Which is probably part of why this has been so disturbing. I have to make a conscious effort to remain good-hearted and not become the angry, bitter person that I could be because of this cultural "norm".
Elliot Rodgers was insane, psychotic probably, suffering from narcissistic paranoid delusion. The authorities didn't react when his own family gave concerns about his vlogs. He would, as would his victims, still be alive today if people had reacted to his vlogs and at least done something about it.
I don't want to shift blame, but mentally ill need intervention to stop them from doing stupid shit.
All kinds of shit happens to people. Some because of their own doing, and some because it's just out of their control. Women have been having sex with good looking guys rather than the so called dorks since way before feminism was coined as a word. Sometimes we just have to suck it up and find something else to do (for a while). Sometimes we have to accept that life may not always deliver all that we want. If it's not getting sex, maybe it's not getting an invitation to play for the NHL or the NBA. It could have been a whole lot of things this guy could have used as an excuse to kill. He blew the sex thing up to unreasonable proportions. Eventually, he would have found someone. It's not like he looked like a freak.
This guy was a whining little fuck, who threw a tantrum because he wasn't getting enough attention. The expectations of men and women have little to do with this piece of shit killing a bunch of innocent people. This was all him. Period.
I read that he had aspergers, a form of autism which generally trends on people not being able to understand or compute social situations and empathise with the emotions of others.
Makes you wonder why he was able to buy guns...
This is disturbing on several levels, not the least of which is the attempt by the parents to warn the authorities and they not responding.
How misogynistic are we that we can somehow morph our thinking to make the women who were the victims the cause of the problem? And skip over entirely the fact that the shooter's mental illness and access to firearms is the why and how of his actions. Sad.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 28, 2014, 02:44:44 AM
Honestly, this doesn't surprise me in the least. I will go ahead and copy-pasta my facebook question, so if it seems abit out of character (lack of vulgarities and all that good shit), that's why :P.
People actually support what this guy did, or at least say, "It was justified"?
So I have a question for anyone who want's to put their thoughts on the issue; do you think this guy would have been frustrated to the point he would do something like this if we didn't make such a stupid to-do about being sexually active, if we didn't shame people for not getting laid?
I am 100% in favour of people being able to sleep with whoever they like so long as both are consenting and 100% in favour in getting rid of all these stupid stigmas and taboos and double-standards about sexuality. But this belief that not being sexually active makes you less of a person (man, anyways) that is rampant in (male?) society is not contributing to a healthy mindset amongst Americans; to the contrary it is just a knee-jerk reaction to sexual taboos that is just as bad.
Being sexually liberated means people can have as much sex OR as little sex as they desire without being judged for it by others, because at the end of the day it is none of your damn business what consenting adults do with each other. To me this is just another unhealthy mindset that is only holding society back.
----
To me this is something that really holds men back, because this is something we face from the time we are in lower-grade school. I understand the mindset in junior high, maybe high school, but even into the mid-twenties I am seeing it. What is wrong with men?
The thing is there has never been a time in recorded history when society has not put an emphasis on sex. Even if you're going out of your way to avoid it, you're still putting an emphasis on it.
And I think your logic is a little flawed, or at the very least unrealistic. We are never going to get to a place where people are not judged for their sexuality. This is because we're never going to get to a place where people don't judge others for everything. That doesn't mean its ok to discriminate. That doesn't mean its ok to shame or belittle. But we're always going to notice what others are doing and we're always going judge, even if only internally, based on our own individual yardstick.
Quote from: Fidel_Castronaut on May 28, 2014, 09:47:41 AM
I read that he had aspergers, a form of autism which generally trends on people not being able to understand or compute social situations and empathise with the emotions of others.
Makes you wonder why he was able to buy guns...
I had heard that too. It could explain him not being able to connect with women, but I don't know enough about Asperger's to know if it can explain the killing.
Responding from my phone, so sorry for any auto- corrects.
To those saying he still would have done it, I probably agree. However I don't see why in cases like this we all rally to say, "No, no, no... his culture had NOTHING to do with it! ", yet can you with a straight face tell me that if he had used Christianity or Islam as his excuse people would give religion the same defense?
@Johan (i think); We said the same thing about slavery, gays, women's rights, etc... society isn't ever going to accept them as equals. And I think history has proven it's just not true. Yes, there will obviously be idiots, but over time society will make it socially unacceptable to be racist, sexIst, whatever. It takes time, generations, but it can be done.
Lanza, the mass shooter in CT was also diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome. That diagnosis has been retired and replaced with a diagnosis on the scale of autism spectrum disorder.
In general, psychological diagnoses are a load of pseudo-scientific crap and Asperger Syndrome and autism spectrum disorder are odd sock drawer diagnoses for kids who act oddly.
Quote from: Shiranu on May 28, 2014, 11:29:16 AM
Responding from my phone, so sorry for any auto- corrects.
To those saying he still would have done it, I probably agree. However I don't see why in cases like this we all rally to say, "No, no, no... his culture had NOTHING to do with it! "
I didn't intend to say that, and I'm not sure if others do. Yeah, he was a little off in the head, but I wouldn't rule out culture as playing a part. As to whether or not he did it because of women, I don't think anyone can rightfully blame that on women. It's what he claimed as a reason, but to get from, "Women ignore me," to "Therefore, I will kill them," presents a line of reasoning with some major logical voids in it.
Er, well, I guess I feel sorry for him succumbing to whatever mental illness he obviously had...?
Quote from: SGOS on May 28, 2014, 11:27:23 AM
I had heard that too. It could explain him not being able to connect with women, but I don't know enough about Asperger's to know if it can explain the killing.
I suppose it's possible, but I have Aspergers, am also a 22-YO virgin, have been bullied most of my life, and while I do own a .22 my solution to that
particular problem usually involves tissues and soft pornography. So... I'm gonna go with straight-up mental sickness on this one.
Quote from: stromboli on May 28, 2014, 09:58:15 AM
This is disturbing on several levels, not the least of which is the attempt by the parents to warn the authorities and they not responding.
How misogynistic are we that we can somehow morph our thinking to make the women who were the victims the cause of the problem? And skip over entirely the fact that the shooter's mental illness and access to firearms is the why and how of his actions. Sad.
Agreed. Unlike some other murders, we know why this killing spree happened because the killer left videos and documents clearly stating what was going on. This was someone who was diagnosed mentally ill and had a thought disorder, persecutory delusions and autistic spectrum disorder. I watched one of his videos and it is all very obvious, in fact I'm kind of surprised so many people who watch his videos don't recognize he was mentally ill. He had access to weapons, people around him knew he was dangerous and his family tried to have law enforcement intervene but the way the involuntary commitment laws are written (to prevent people from being unnecessarily forced into a hospital) it is very difficult to have someone hospitalized unless they are at risk of harming themselves or others
right now. People who think that having sex would have cured this guy's mental health problems don't understand how mental illness works. Rodger's brain wasn't working normally, which doesn't in any way minimize or excuse what he did as he clearly understood right from wrong, but it invalidates arguments that any reasonable person in his circumstances would have behaved similarly. This tragedy is primarily about one person's distorted view of reality and his ability to act out his violent fantasies before someone could intervene.
The many people saying that they don't blame him have got to be trolling because I refuse to believe there are as many men willing to go to his insane level. The thoughts we harbor are one thing. Most of us fantasize about killing others from time to time, but when it gets right down to brass tacks very few are willing to go there minus a war when we're under direct threat of life and limb.
The news sites allowing such comments ought to be closed down, fined and possibly jailed for not acting on it.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on May 28, 2014, 09:40:41 PM
The many people saying that they don't blame him have got to be trolling because I refuse to believe there are as many men willing to go to his insane level. The thoughts we harbor are one thing. Most of us fantasize about killing others from time to time, but when it gets right down to brass tacks very few are willing to go there minus a war when we're under direct threat of life and limb.
The news sites allowing such comments ought to be closed down, fined and possibly jailed for not acting on it.
That's the thing, they aren't "defending" him per-se, they are just saying they agree with what he said his reasoning was. Sorta like saying, "I don't believe all the Jews should be killed, but I think Hitler was right that they were sub-human, greedy destroyers of society".
My problem is less with this guy himself and rather the mindset he had. As I alluded to before, it is no different then when the mentally ill do something in the name of religion even though in that case we will blame religion before the illness. They are both at fault to an extent, but the fact of the matter is what he said about women is something that IS very common among men in society today. He took it to the absolute extreme, but society leans closer to his views than they do the opposite direction.
QuoteI didn't intend to say that, and I'm not sure if others do. Yeah, he was a little off in the head, but I wouldn't rule out culture as playing a part. As to whether or not he did it because of women, I don't think anyone can rightfully blame that on women. It's what he claimed as a reason, but to get from, "Women ignore me," to "Therefore, I will kill them," presents a line of reasoning with some major logical voids in it.
Okay, I agree with all of that. I personally believe the majority (say, 80%+) of the reason he did it was he was a sick individual. However what he said was not something that is too far from what many men in society currently believe, and that is the real issue to me. He has done what he has done, they are dead, and there is nothing we can do about that now. Yet the misogyny he used as an excuse is still absolutely rampant in male society, simply not taken this far to the extreme, and I think if we can take anything "good" out of this situation it would be the chance to address something that is really overlooked in male culture.
This misogyny doesn't just hurt women, it is very detrimental to guys themselves as well because it means men who don't just think of women as walking fucking machines are negatively judged for not thinking and behaving that way.
This idiot "Roosh" that she quotes doesn't know sh*t from apple butter. He links "American women" with "sexy and hot men" as some sort of norm. I'm soon to be 55 years old and at every stage of my life, from junior high to middle age, I have known guys who would in no way be described as sexy and hot but who consistently dated attractive women because they were smart, confident, and had an appealing personality. This guy Roosh and the websites he frequents are aimed at those who want to wallow in their failures or inability to have meaningful relationships with the fair sex.
I'll be 55 in July and by this site's standards we may be youngsters in certain circles although I won't mention certain old cretins. :lol:
This notion that only magazine models deserve to be laid or whatever the fuck they think is stupid. Life isn't the cool kids club.
This is disturbing, but for some reason, to me it's not surprising. It seems to me that the people I see defending him are in denial about how deranged he probably was... like they are looking for the best in him and maybe making up a good side that might not have been there. I'm not agreeing with the people that are defending him, I think he's sick, but I think the people that are defending him are just genuinely good people that are unable to accept or wrap their head around when someone is fucked in the head to the level of someone like that.
I think most defending him are turds with nothing better to do than troll trying to stir the shit knowing damned good and well he was mentally fucked, but they get to hide behind anonymity of the internet to act out some stupid fuck fantasy serial killer. In reality I'd bet the majority are "pussy whipped" guys terrified their wives and girlfriends will find out the bullshit they're posting. .
Ehhh. I don't know about that. I know my default is that I automatically think people are good... and unless someone does something bad, I tend to keep that thought.
I can imagine that other people are like that... assuming that people are good people before getting to know them, and I can also imagine that people can go in denial of someone being a deranged maniac if their belief that people are genuinely good.
Think about it. We get people that come in to this forum saying that a misogynistic omnipotent being in watching over us and love is sending us to eternal suffering if we don't love him back. There are stranger things that goes on in here than people defending a psycho that actually existed. And again. I'm not defending the guy or saying that it's beyond unsettling that someone WOULD defend him. I'm just saying that it's not surprising.
I've seen the same kind of defense of unacceptable behavior in other cases. After a an abortion clinic bombing, I heard Christians where I work saying that it was wrong, but they could understand why the bomber was driven to it. But everyone clearly understands why the bomber did it, just like everyone understands why the shooter did the shooting.
There's clearly something implied with the "I understand why he did it" adjunct. It suggests that murder done in the name of something that bothers a lot of people is acceptable, and almost even commendable.
Perhaps the appropriate response to such defenses is just a simple, "Fuck you," without any further explanation or discussion.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on May 29, 2014, 03:31:10 AM
I think most defending him are turds with nothing better to do than troll trying to stir the shit knowing damned good and well he was mentally fucked, but they get to hide behind anonymity of the internet to act out some stupid fuck fantasy serial killer. In reality I'd bet the majority are "pussy whipped" guys terrified their wives and girlfriends will find out the bullshit they're posting. .
I wish I also thought this, but I don't. I think far too many people can empathize with this guy. As a single woman, I faced aggression, confrontation and even violence almost constantly. It's hard to fathom, but it's very much part of our cultural fabric.
Even your comment about men being "pussy whipped" speaks to that cultural phenomenon. It's so pervasive, people don't often even notice.
Worth watching.
http://www.upworthy.com/in-the-last-33-years-70-of-the-71-mass-murderers-in-the-us-all-had-1-thing-in-common?c=ufb1
All of the male dominated- empowered women emasculating men issues aside, the one thing that bothers me most is that I can put myself in the place of the killers' parents. I can see their frustration and the lack of response that could have stopped this. Hopefully some good will come out in another look at mental health vs gun control. there were certainly enough red flags thrown up with this guy that somebody should have acted.