The other thread was growing too large to show its importance
So right now we've got Russian troops poised to go into Crimea, the Eastern part of the Ukraine which is illegal by the way, according to the UN charter.
It looks to me a lot like what Hitler did to Czechoslovakia in the 30's and now the world is going to see what happens.
CNN broadcast: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/eur ... ?hpt=hp_t1 (http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-politics/index.html?hpt=hp_t1)
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-approves-m ... 15025.html (http://news.yahoo.com/russia-approves-military-ukraine-162315025.html)
Massive number of Ukrainian coast guard just defected to the Black Sea fleet
It's all rather pointless. The U.S. is going to back down anyway and the Ukraine will probably get crushed. The U.N. can't do shit because Russia, like the U.S., France, and the U.K. have automatic veto power that the Russians are sure to use. Tyranny wins again.
I seem to remember reading in one of the Reddit threads on this that Ukrainian law allows the Russians to operate in Crimea.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... g-war.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html)
Apparently we're bound by treaty to protect Ukraine's borders. Are we worth our word, or just a meaningless piece of paper? Probably the later.
Fucking shit. I step away from reading about Ukraine for a bit and this happens. Putin is a fucking bastard, that's for sure.
"This piece of paper means peace in our time"
We'll have to see what's happening.
I gotta tell you I'm in no big hurry to be Ukraines protectoarate and have no allegiance to them and damned sure not eager to see my son risk his neck for Ukrainians or anyone else's sons for that matter.
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"It looks to me a lot like what Hitler did to Czechoslovakia in the 30's and now the world is going to see what happens.
I think it is more like what Russia did to Georgia in 2008.
The truth about foreign policy is that there is a distinct advantage--at least in the short term--in acting like the craziest guy in the room. North Korea can sink a South Korean boat and shell one of their islands because they know the south will knuckle under rather than risk Seoul being shelled in a widening crisis. Putin knows he can throw his weight around because the west will, ultimately, not WWIII/risk nuclear annihilation over Crimea.
Quote from: "Moriarty"http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html
Apparently we're bound by treaty to protect Ukraine's borders. Are we worth our word, or just a meaningless piece of paper? Probably the later.
The problem here is who is the legitimate government? Russia will say that Yanukovich is, and he can authorize Russian troops in Ukraine.
So the Russians have officially taken Crimea
No surprise.
Well, if you're willing to lose your head over Ukraine feel free to enlist right away. I'm sure the army will soon be looking for a few good men.
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"So the Russians have officially taken Crimea
Source?
Quote from: "Valigarmander"Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"So the Russians have officially taken Crimea
Source?
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-troops-ov ... 52097.html (http://news.yahoo.com/russian-troops-over-ukraines-crimea-region-200052097.html)
AP
Yahoo is suddenly the official news source that the world listens to? Being a protectorate and being annexed are quite different situations, but I hate to break the bad news kids. If Russia wants Crimea bad enough they can have it. I have little interest in another long, drawn out war or proxy war for that matter.
Its a copied article from a different site
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"Yahoo is suddenly the official news source that the world listens to? Being a protectorate and being annexed are quite different situations, but I hate to break the bad news kids. If Russia wants Crimea bad enough they can have it. I have little interest in another long, drawn out war or proxy war for that matter.
They will not let me back in the military at my age APA, otherwise I would! The Ukraine is worth fighting for, far more than Afghanistan or Iraq. So screw it, we started two wars of aggression that we probably didn't have to. Does that mean we shouldn't fight in one we probably should? The Crimean peninsula, as you said is not worth fighting for and maybe neither is Ukraine but stopping the Russians flat out where they are is.
I have been reading a lot of articles and posts where people are proclaiming the rebirth of the Soviet Union. That is bullshit, we could at least deal with them, this isn't communism it's a tyrannical government hell bent on expansion that their own people don't even support. Don't stop him/them now you have another Hitler on your hands. Period.
I won't support any war that doesn't directly threaten our sovereignty or that of our close allies we're under treaty obligation to defend. Ukraine doesn't fall into that and you better think fucking hard and long about war with Russia. They have nuclear weapons too...lots of them.
The US won't be doing much, and like in 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia, it will do a lot of screaming,much ado about nothing. Putin knows this, and so is everybody else.
I don't feel any worse off since the Georgian dick fight. :-k
Well the Ukrainians called up all of their reserves, if Russia chose to invade the rest of the Ukraine however, I don't think they would last long
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-ready-invad ... .html?vp=1 (http://news.yahoo.com/putin-ready-invade-ukraine-kiev-warns-war-011805827--finance.html?vp=1)
Note: this was all accomplished without firing a single shot.
scary thing is if I'm not mistaken we DO have a treaty to defend Ukraine.
it was part of the nuclear disarming treaty we signed with them. they got rid of all their nukes, and we agreed to protect them.
I could be wrong, so fill me in.
thing is though I agree with APA that war with Russia is BAD NEWS. could even be the end of mankind. its not worth it. let 'em have Ukraine.
Where is this treaty? The one on Wikipedia (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine) doesn't mention anything about having to protect the Ukraine, we just have to "respect their borders" and bring up any dispute before the UN.
thats a relief to hear.
Very few countries are stupid enough to sign a binding "defense" treaty after WWI and WWII, especially when such a treaty might mean fighting a nuclear-armed country.
Quote from: "zarus tathra"Very few countries are stupid enough to sign a binding "defense" treaty after WWI and WWII, especially when such a treaty might mean fighting a nuclear-armed country.
??? They are more common now than they have ever been, and precisely because of the possibility of fighting a nuclear-armed country.
This is a list of nations that have mutual defense treaties and only includes the ones led by the US.
NATO: Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States.
ANZUS Treaty: Australia, New Zealand, United States
Philippine Treaty: Philippines, United States
Southeast Asia Treaty: Australia, France, New Zealand, Philippines, United States
Japanese Treaty: Japan, United States
Republic of Korea Treaty: Republic of Korea, United States
Rio Treaty: Argentina, Bahamas, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Trinidad & Tobago, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela
I admit that was a dumb thing to say.
As I said in the chat box last week I believe... the Ukrainian people fought and died so that they could be friends with us over Russia. So long as Ukraine is there wide for the taking, Russia will take it (if they feel they can survive any sanctions put on them). If it is both economically and militaristically a poor idea, I cant see Russia taking it.
If we leave them to be taken over by Russia, that will not sit well with the Ukrainian people who risked their lives to be our partners and gives Russia the green light to get involved in any foreign conflict they want.
If they want to hold Crimea, then I think that needs to be arranged through diplomatic means, insuring that both the Russians and Ukrainians have access to ports along the sea. But to say that Putin deserves Ukraine because we are too afraid to stand up to them sounds very eerily like the men who said, "Let Hitler have Poland, we don't want to make him mad.".
Giving the power hungry more power rarely sates their apatite.