I have been studying the above noted text by John Stuart Mill penned in 1869 and find myself in need of a wider opinion on one aspect. I hope to tap into some of your current ideas and experiences to see how diverse our observations are.
Mill purports that women have historically been schooled to believe their role is to behave in a way that will please a man. A pleasing appearance, selfless service to the man, giving control of assets and decisions to the man (and more) is how social norms and experience had taught women to behave to be attractive to a man in the 19th century. This teaching also affected the man who expected his brutish behaviour or just unkindness was sanctioned in the home and society and law in the pursuit of his selfish will.
Mill was a strong supporter of reform for equal legal rights for women at a time such talk was unpopular.
My question is: "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of subjection to men when the sexes interact socially?"
Thanks for your opinions.
xo.
QuoteMy question is: "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of subjection to men when the sexes interact socially?"
I would not say they have reached that point, no. Just like men have certain social roles forced on them, this is one that is forced on women still. That said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as it use to be. Women CAN do what ever they want... but they will still get funny looks. But that is an improvement over being sent to special schools where they are abused into being more "woman-ly".
Quote from: "xodot"My question is: "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of subjection to men when the sexes interact socially?"
Surely you mean "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of
subjugation by men when the sexes interact socially?"
Is this question focussing on a specific culture or area? Because the answer varies heavily based on those two parameters. (It's completely false for many areas of the world even, where women simply don't have those rights at all)
This sounds like the "post racial world" fallacies popularized after Obama was elected. :-k
Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "xodot"My question is: "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of subjection to men when the sexes interact socially?"
Surely you mean "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of subjugation by men when the sexes interact socially?"
If the question is "by men" instead of "to men" it would imply that men are responsible for any subjection that may exist. So to avoid that rabbit hole, I first want to know if, in your opinion, female subjection to males exists when the two sexes interact socially.
(We can talk about where that force to subject women comes from later if you want :wink: Let us first establish if it exists)
The preposition is not the issue. It's the verb I'm having trouble with.
Do..your. ..makeup ...? Ge..wha..are you...nahhh.. =D>
Seriously, I'm a dad of 2, 2 step daughters and several granddaughters. I feel ill when people try to sexualize little girls. Man, let them grow up and enjoy their childhoods. What a grown woman decides to do is her decision.
Men and boys face our own sexualization issues, but it varies.
I will say at least western women have more choices in clothing, dresses, pants, frilly or plain, etc. Not to many of us guys are going to run around in pretty lacy panties and a cotton summer dress.
Well I might, but don't tell anyone. :-$
The answer to your question is no.
Quote from: "xodot"I have been studying the above noted text by John Stuart Mill penned in 1869 and find myself in need of a wider opinion on one aspect. I hope to tap into some of your current ideas and experiences to see how diverse our observations are.
Mill purports that women have historically been schooled to believe their role is to behave in a way that will please a man. A pleasing appearance, selfless service to the man, giving control of assets and decisions to the man (and more) is how social norms and experience had taught women to behave to be attractive to a man in the 19th century. This teaching also affected the man who expected his brutish behaviour or just unkindness was sanctioned in the home and society and law in the pursuit of his selfish will.
Mill was a strong supporter of reform for equal legal rights for women at a time such talk was unpopular.
My question is: "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of subjection to men when the sexes interact socially?"
Thanks for your opinions.
xo.
The short answer is no, they are not.
The long answer is that the gender roles and offensive societal norms have been spread out more evenly in some ways, which is why most modern feminists fight against norms in general rather than just women's rights.
When I was in college, I had to take a course about the women's movement and gender equality. One day, the instructor divided us into groups of four, and I found myself the only guy in my group. Even there, I was the de facto leader without even seeking it, they just assumed I was the leader from the first interaction. The irony was not lost on me.
Quote from: "Insult to Rocks"Quote from: "xodot"I have been studying the above noted text by John Stuart Mill penned in 1869 and find myself in need of a wider opinion on one aspect. I hope to tap into some of your current ideas and experiences to see how diverse our observations are.
Mill purports that women have historically been schooled to believe their role is to behave in a way that will please a man. A pleasing appearance, selfless service to the man, giving control of assets and decisions to the man (and more) is how social norms and experience had taught women to behave to be attractive to a man in the 19th century. This teaching also affected the man who expected his brutish behaviour or just unkindness was sanctioned in the home and society and law in the pursuit of his selfish will.
Mill was a strong supporter of reform for equal legal rights for women at a time such talk was unpopular.
My question is: "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of subjection to men when the sexes interact socially?"
Thanks for your opinions.
xo.
The short answer is no, they are not.
The long answer is that the gender roles and offensive societal norms have been spread out more evenly in some ways, which is why most modern feminists fight against norms in general rather than just women's rights.
Interesting observation.
the gender roles and offensive societal norms have been spread out more evenly ....what do you see that shows this? what actions/behaviour/roles are occurring between men and women that are still subjecting women to men?
Respectfully,
xo.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"strom, I think you have some sort of an effect on me.
And I'm smart enough to know better than pursuing that line of thought.
Quote from: "Plu"Is this question focussing on a specific culture or area? Because the answer varies heavily based on those two parameters. (It's completely false for many areas of the world even, where women simply don't have those rights at all)
I completely agree with you that the responses will vary globally - that is why I asked on this forum what you see for yourself in your own day to day observations/experiences when women and men interact socially.
I am hoping some will share an observation that will support their opinion.
Thanks for letting clear this up,
Regards,
xo.
Quote from: "Jason78"The preposition is not the issue. It's the verb I'm having trouble with.
Subjection and Subjugation are nouns and they both refer to the control or domination of someone or thing. What am I missing?
xo.
My mother was a unique woman living within the Mormon church. A divorcee (horrors!) Unmarried head of a household (gasp!) who raised children successfully on a wing and a prayer. She was a talented singer and had been an aspiring actress back in the day, before being trapped into a Mormon marriage. She was a free spirit in the Stepford Wive's Club (Mormon Relief Society) who introduced women to a wider world of literature and opened horizons for them. Because of her I was exposed to opera and literature and things not common to Mormonism. I can thank her for my open mindedness and my eventual leaving of the religion for that reason.
I see women who are subjugated by religion or by society and think of her, her incredible spirit and undaunted demeanor. I see what women are capable of and how our society would be the better for their free input and equality in all things, both professionally and socially. I guess that is why the suppression of women is so saddening to me, because I have seen their capabilities and their strength. And it is a terrible shame.
Quote from: "xodot"Quote from: "Plu"Is this question focussing on a specific culture or area? Because the answer varies heavily based on those two parameters. (It's completely false for many areas of the world even, where women simply don't have those rights at all)
I completely agree with you that the responses will vary globally - that is why I asked on this forum what you see for yourself in your own day to day observations/experiences when women and men interact socially.
In my personal observations, it heavily depends on who you hang out with. The subcultures I hang around with are far more relaxed and equal than general society, and that's in the Netherlands which is supposed to be a little ahead in terms of social issues. But overall, we're not there yet. And I'm not sure if we'll ever get there.
Following Drunkenshoe's clarification, I think it's important that we are precise with the English language.
QuoteMill was a strong supporter of reform for equal legal rights for women at a time such talk was unpopular.
Legally, I think western societies are doing pretty good. Culturally, it depends where you're at.
Regardless of legal or cultural norms, there have been women who rise to the top despite the obstacles. My grandmother didn't take shit from anyone, and still maintained a dignified bearing. It's women like Grandma who will eventually make the difference.
I will use the fishing analogy. If we are a trawler and we drag in a huge sample we will find that in western culture women are for the most part are very equal. If we are throwing a cast net, we will find that women still lag in many areas and still face open oppression. If we just use one hook we can find that women in general still face open bigotry even by family members without it being recognized.
Some women see their lives as for all purposes and intents quite equal. The facts however present a different story, they themselves have either knowingly or not so insulated themselves from parts of culture where they would not be so equal.
Ask a man if women are equal and most likely he will say yes. But most men will never openly admit that they don't think women can ever be "equal", they "can't even change a fucking tire or understand football or start the goddamn lawn mower". To them, this means "equality". Societal, educational and income equality is outside the realm of the average mans thinking. You ask a concrete laborer making 10 bucks an hour if women in the office making 11 bucks an hour is proof that income equality exists, but I don't think his answer would suggest a just criteria.
(//http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/images/2010/ted_20101025.png)
So much for 50 years of legal equality...
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"[ Image (//http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/images/2010/ted_20101025.png) ]
So much for 50 years of legal equality...
Can't see the image.
see? women can't even see the damn image!
:axe
:rollin:
> My question is: "After almost a century of legal equality and 50 years of social freedom, are women now free of subjection to men when the sexes interact socially?"
Hardly. How many women presidents have we had? How many US Senators are women? Why do many people insist that Viagra be covered by health insurance but not birth control pills? Why did many politicians oppose HPV inoculations for women, even knowing that these inoculations would prevent cervical cancer?
It is true that women mostly control the dating relationship, and in some long-term relationships the woman is in control. But as a society, we still subjugate women.
Frank
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"[ Image (//http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/images/2010/ted_20101025.png) ]
So much for 50 years of legal equality...
Can't see the image.
It's just an earnings chart Shoe. Women in the US earn an average of about 77% of males for the same work. Other places it is worse. Some it is better. I am not aware of anywhere where earnings are equal.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"PS nice to see you around. :)
Thanks. I'm back in Texas for a few weeks, and will probably have more time to visit than I've had for a while.
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"[ Image (//http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/images/2010/ted_20101025.png) ]
So much for 50 years of legal equality...
Can't see the image.
It's just an earnings chart Shoe. Women in the US earn an average of about 77% of males for the same work. Other places it is worse. Some it is better. I am not aware of anywhere where earnings are equal.
According to my friend from Belgium, they've reached the point where women on average earn more then men. But even there in the media it's still portraid as if women are earning less, mostly by radical feminists. At least according to her.
Is it just me or is there an increase in smileys?
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Lol, I was thinking exactly the opposite two days ago. We had a few 'pages' of smileys....drunks, drinkers... Now we have just one page. :( I wish we had more.
Don't worry, it'll be alright. It's just one page
now. We'll just make some more, OK? :)