Wherever I go, I see atheists trying to be Christians. They form groups, they proselytize, they hold meetings on Sundays.
We're not Christians. And i don't mean that in the obvious, literal sense. I mean that Christianity and atheism are complete opposites from a sociological standpoint.
Christianity is something that can only really exist with the help of priesthoods. People like to talk about how their particular denomination of Christianity is a special little snowflake, but everybody knows that if the Catholic Church with all its priests and funding and scholars and history were to disappear, Christianity would vanish from the Earth in like 10 years and would probably degenerate into something resembling New Age spirituality. It is a conclusion that is so outlandish and overbuilt that it can not possibly be arrived at privately. It can only come about with the help of vast, ubiquitous institutions and years of indoctrination, both subtle and overt in character.
Atheism, on the other hand, is generally something that is arrived at privately. The typical atheist is a "lone wolf," someone who sees himself as being "lost in the woods." As such, atheism does not take naturally to herd behavior in the way that Christianity does, which itself is nothing if not a PRODUCT of herd behavior.
General Sherman, a Union general during the Civil War, found himself losing battle after battle trying to herd his army of individualistic mountain men and hunters and farm boys the same way the Confederate generals herded their trained soldiers. It wasn't until he let them loose and used tactics that were more suited to their temperaments that he began to really win. I say that we should do the same. We should play "guerrilla war." Not because they outnumber us, but because that's just how we roll. If we outnumbered them, holding meetings on Sundays and having hugboxes would be just as unnatural to us as it is now.
What I propose is that we do the same as the Chinese motorcycle parts industry. Western industry revolves around detailed, mathematically precise plans that never end up conforming to the physical world. The Chinese motorcycle parts industry, on the other hand, compiled a list of standards and suggestions that could be used or ignored by individual suppliers at will. In the 90's, it was weak like all other Chinese industries were. Now, it supplies more than 50% of the world's motorcycle parts.
tl;dr Instead of plans and organizations, we should have protocols, rules of thumb that are easy for small groups and individual atheists to adopt.
So where do you get this idea religion is ever going to wither on the vine?
What do you mean by that? I don't think the Catholic Church or similar institutions will ever disappear without our help. They're just too big and too firmly entrenched for that. I'm just saying that if those institutions just vanished without a trace, Christianity would have no center of gravity. Nobody would be printing Bibles and handing them out for free. Everybody would have their own conflicting interpretations of everything, and there'd be no Mother Church to step and and harmonize the variations.
We are human and by nature social, and has nothing to do with religion or atheism, but everything to do with evolution. Atheist meet ups are nothing like religious meet ups, and sure as hell aren't atheists trying to be like Christians but human beings sharing information, not proselytizing atheism. And religion will not disappear with or without our help because it is pragmatic and works for many.:-? Friedrich Nietzsche went insane because of his beliefs, not because of his disbelief in God. Solitary
Pretty speculative zarus.. The word IF seems more like wishful or even magical thinking. The church isn't disappearing any time soon so I'm not engaging in mental masturbation of IF the church just magically disappears.
I think you completely missed the point of my post, which is that atheism and Christianity are fundamentally different for reasons other than theology (or the lack thereof) and that we should stop pretending otherwise.
The only reason you know atheists who congregate like that is because you still live in a country dominated by religious folk.
In the Netherlands the whole idea of starting an atheist gathering would be ridiculous. If you want to start a gathering; you pick an actual subject. But that's primarily because we have loads of atheists and clubs for all sorts of stuff, so no reason to create an atheist club.
So what are some guerrilla tactics that work on Xtians? Do we really even want to destroy them?
And I personally think that atheist groups are ridiculous as well.
Quote from: "Plu"The only reason you know atheists who congregate like that is because you still live in a country dominated by religious folk.
In the Netherlands the whole idea of starting an atheist gathering would be ridiculous. If you want to start a gathering; you pick an actual subject. But that's primarily because we have loads of atheists and clubs for all sorts of stuff, so no reason to create an atheist club.
That's not the reason I do. I just want to socialize with like minded people, like being on this forum. :-? I sort of agree with you in the sense that we do it do get away from the religious nuts that take their religion too serious and proselytize in every social gathering here. We need more coffee shops here like you have, and then we wouldn't need atheist meet up groups because all the uptight self-righteous theist wouldn't go there mongool. :shock: :lol: Just yanking your chain! Solitary
Meeting as a group isn't the same as meeting under a set of dogmatic rules that serve to modify our behavior. A town business meeting is not a church gathering. There are differences. I don't have a problem with groups meeting for social reasons or for informational purposes, it is when you start electing officers and appointing leaders is the time I leave.
Quote from: "Plu"The only reason you know atheists who congregate like that is because you still live in a country dominated by religious folk.
Not really. We live in a country where it's still popular to claim that you're a religious person even when you're not. This is probably a lingering relic of the Cold War as anti-communist ferver fused religion and patriotism vs. the godless commies. As an example of how it's popular to claim to be more religious than you are, nearly 80% of Americans when polled will claim that they go to church at least once a month, but statisticians have solid evidence that only about 25% of Americans actually do. Most people in the USA are fairly ambivalent about religion; it's just that a minority of the 25% who do go to church every week are loudmouth idiots. In a nation of 310 million, even small percentages add up fast.
Quote from: "Solitary"Quote from: "Plu"The only reason you know atheists who congregate like that is because you still live in a country dominated by religious folk.
In the Netherlands the whole idea of starting an atheist gathering would be ridiculous. If you want to start a gathering; you pick an actual subject. But that's primarily because we have loads of atheists and clubs for all sorts of stuff, so no reason to create an atheist club.
That's not the reason I do. I just want to socialize with like minded people, like being on this forum. :-? I sort of agree with you in the sense that we do it do get away from the religious nuts that take their religion too serious and proselytize in every social gathering here. We need more coffee shops here like you have, and then we wouldn't need atheist meet up groups because all the uptight self-righteous theist wouldn't go there mongool. :shock: :lol: Just yanking your chain! Solitary
Well the thing is that if you start an atheist club in the Netherlands you wouldn't get like minded people, you'd just get a random slice of society, with a potential extra amount of loudmouths and un-sociable and/or lonely folk :P
You'd be better off finding a science or philosophy gathering.
Really zarus? Do you really think we're all that different? I don't. Theism is just one very small aspect of who people really are. I socialize with plenty of theists. I don't attend churches, but I can't escape their influence. I'm fine separating my religious or non religious views from the other aspects of life without feeling 'special' as an atheist.
It doesn't take a genius to realize that certain social behaviors correlate well with some theologies/metaphors and not nearly so well with others.
And how do theist social gatherings differ from atheist ones outside of a church gathering and more or less correlate? :-? Solitary
> We're not Christians.
But we are people, and most people desire a community to belong to. Things like Ethical Culture and the American Humanist Association provide a community, in addition to doing good works.
> And i don't mean that in the obvious, literal sense. I mean that Christianity and atheism are complete opposites from a sociological standpoint.
That doesn't mean that sociology doesn't apply to atheists. Most of us desire like-minded company, and if religion comes up in virtually all other groups, atheist communities are the only option.
I sing barbershop quartet music, and throughout the year, but especially this season, they sing religious music. If I'm going to sing barbershop, I have to put up with the nonsense.
Frank
I don't even understand what atheists would talk about in such meetings. If they're gathering to accomplish a purpose, such as raising money to help build a homeless shelter or feed starving Somali children, that's great, but gathering just to discuss atheism doesn't sound very interesting.
> I don't even understand what atheists would talk about in such meetings.
Physics, ethics, cosmology, politics, personal relationships, current events, events in our lives, celebrating happy events (like births, marriages, birthdays, anniversaries), sharing the sorrow of unhappy events, poverty and how to alleviate it, bowling, movies, medicine, music, life.
I spoke on the evolution of ethics on one occasion, and a science-based system of ethical behavior on another. That was at the Washington Ethical Society and the Northern Virginia Ethical Society.
> If they're gathering to accomplish a purpose, such as raising money to help build a homeless shelter or feed starving Somali children, that's great,
They do a fair amount of that.
> but gathering just to discuss atheism doesn't sound very interesting.
To the best of my recollection, atheism per se never came up.
Frank
Still running on the idea of starting these meetings in a highly religious setting, I see.
Quote from: "FrankDK"> I don't even understand what atheists would talk about in such meetings.
Physics, ethics, cosmology, politics, personal relationships, current events, events in our lives, celebrating happy events (like births, marriages, birthdays, anniversaries), sharing the sorrow of unhappy events, poverty and how to alleviate it, bowling, movies, medicine, music, life.
I spoke on the evolution of ethics on one occasion, and a science-based system of ethical behavior on another. That was at the Washington Ethical Society and the Northern Virginia Ethical Society.
> If they're gathering to accomplish a purpose, such as raising money to help build a homeless shelter or feed starving Somali children, that's great,
They do a fair amount of that.
> but gathering just to discuss atheism doesn't sound very interesting.
To the best of my recollection, atheism per se never came up.
Frank
That sounds pretty cool!
The only community of like-minded individuals I can find is in a local pub, and we aren't many. I just go to this local pub, and we talk about whatever, be it current events, philosophy, family or just music.
This atheism meeting will come to order.. I don't believe in god. Any objections? No? Meeting adjourned. :)
If you think about it, it's kind of odd that humans, the social animals we are, have to have a club, a detached religion, an association or some Utopian cause to come together and socialize. We compartmentalize our social and work interactions to the point where we sometimes even segregate the people we interact with, according to the activity or event. I know that's not healthy. It can't be.
Step back and ask yourself why you have to have a club or an organization to bring like-minded people together. I think that just emphasizes how unlike-minded people in western society are. It's sad. Your entire community should be like-minded enough to socialize with each other on a daily basis. There's not much of a community if they don't.
I've seen tribal and village type folk who work and play together, unified by culture and purpose. Sure, they're poor, a little ignorant and a bit too religious, but nearly all of them are on the same sheet of music and actually have a community. They connect. To be honest, I envy them sometimes.
OK, done ranting. Had one too many glasses of Wild Turkey.
People in western societies are unlike minded because they are allowed to think for themselves and reach their own conclusions. The inevitable consequence of it is that they reach different conclusions, which causes this divide.
The places you speak of have everyone on the same line because for some reason everyone thinks the same things, enjoys the same things, believes the same things. This is usually a result of some form of conditioning.
If you look around, you will probably find that the less people think, the more likely they are to act as you describe; being able to socialize with the "like-minded" and being a real part of a community. But you'll also find that "like-minded" just means "mindless acceptance of cultural values".
You can sit in a room full of people and still be an independent thinker. Sheep behavior in religion is about confirming the mandate of the religion by following it, and by performing the rote behavior they prescribe. I personally think sheep behavior is better exemplified by things like Black Friday, where mobs of people will break down the doors of a store to buy crap that is marked down a couple of percent. If you want sheep behavior, you don't have to attend church to find it.
Quote from: "zarus tathra"I think you completely missed the point of my post, which is that atheism and Christianity are fundamentally different for reasons other than theology (or the lack thereof) and that we should stop pretending otherwise.
My problem with religion is the need to get other people to subscribe to an agenda.
Kind of like you're doing here.
The only fundamental difference between atheists and christians is that atheists don't believe in gods and christians do. If you are (still) ascribing more properties to atheists than this one, you (still) don't get what atheism is about.
You're the only one here trying to turn atheism into something that looks more like christianity.
Quote from: "Mermaid"Quote from: "zarus tathra"I think you completely missed the point of my post, which is that atheism and Christianity are fundamentally different for reasons other than theology (or the lack thereof) and that we should stop pretending otherwise.
My problem with religion is the need to get other people to subscribe to an agenda.
Kind of like you're doing here.
Actually I'm talking about not engaging in behaviors that people usually engage in when they're trying to push an agenda, such as congregating and stuff.
QuoteYou're the only one here trying to turn atheism into something that looks more like christianity.
See above. I don't understand what you're talking about.
Quote from: "zarus tathra"Actually I'm talking about not engaging in behaviors that people usually engage in when they're trying to push an agenda, such as congregating and stuff.
Telling people what they should think and do and how they should behave is included in pushing your agenda.
Posting the word "SHOULD" is your first clue.
Oh so voicing an opinion is "pushing?" So much for free speech.
Quote from: "ApostateLois"I don't even understand what atheists would talk about in such meetings. If they're gathering to accomplish a purpose, such as raising money to help build a homeless shelter or feed starving Somali children, that's great, but gathering just to discuss atheism doesn't sound very interesting.
I get your point of view, but in my case I am now a very assertive atheist. I like teaching others better debating skills, I like sharing of information with those who want it, I like talking about philosophy and how to dismantle religious points of view, I do this because I arrived at the conclusion, that as an intelligent, moral responsible person, I cannot just look the other way as religion continues to creep into politics like a brain eating virus, affecting laws that affect everyone in this country (USA). I cannot look the other way as I watch them try to convince some gullible person to come "share fellowship" with them this sunday, they go out of their way to increase their number, I think it is high time I and others work to decrease their numbers, and to increase ours. My favorite toy at the moment is epistemology, and the books God is not great by Christopher Hithcens, and How to create an atheist by peter boghossian. I meet up with a group and we share ideas of community service to show people that atheists care too, and that we are not "satanists" who want to eat their children. We share stories, sip some coffee or cold beer and enjoy just talking with others of like minded views. To each their own though
Quote from: "zarus tathra"Oh so voicing an opinion is "pushing?" So much for free speech.
Dude. You are missing the point.
When you say we "should" do a certain thing, it doesn't make you any better than the assholes proselytizing their Christianity or whatever they're pushing.
As for free speech, you can say whatever the fuck you want, and so can I.
I'm just trying to come up with a strategy that meshes better with atheism's generally very "lone wolf" nature. I figured that giving people tips on how to make their way through life and supplying people with arguments would be more productive than anything.
Atheism doesn't have "a way". You're still confusing a bunch of things. You're thinking of humanism or maybe skepticism or something. You'll never get anything useful done until you figure out which behaviours come from which descriptors. (Hint; none of them come from atheism.)
I guess we should figure out a "goal" for the atheist movement that's specific to atheism. I'm not sure that even "destroying religion" would really count...
You can't set a "goal" for a group of people who have nothing in common except not believing in something. It's like trying to set a goal for the non-stamp collecting movement. Doesn't make any sense.
Why organize? For what?
Quote from: "Mermaid"Quote from: "zarus tathra"Oh so voicing an opinion is "pushing?" So much for free speech.
Dude. You are missing the point.
When you say we "should" do a certain thing, it doesn't make you any better than the assholes proselytizing their Christianity or whatever they're pushing.
As for free speech, you can say whatever the fuck you want, and so can I.
So we
should stop saying "should?" I don't think he's "pushing" really. Just saying what he thinks. I don't agree with him, but I don't feel pressured to accept his opinions. I'm not a captive audience or anything like that.
As for gathering as atheists to discuss topics of concern to atheists, that sounds like fun to me. After all, isn't that what we're doing here?
That's just my issue with religion, people trying to tell others what they should and should not believe.
Discussing it and telling people how they should behave to fit your agenda are two different things. So maybe I am a little sensitive to it, or maybe I am being a little bit pedantic. I am trying to make a point and I think I have. Carry on. 8-[
Going back to the original post though, when you say, "Instead of plans and organizations, we should have protocols, rules of thumb that are easy for small groups and individual atheists to adopt," I read that as "precepts, and rules of behavior." And I have to wonder how you propose to find a consensus on what those "protocols and rules of thumb" would be. :-k
Quote from: "zarus tathra"I'm just trying to come up with a strategy that meshes better with atheism's generally very "lone wolf" nature. I figured that giving people tips on how to make their way through life and supplying people with arguments would be more productive than anything.
This isn't a bad idea. But it's very broad in scope. And that purpose is kind of already served by a lot of what's on this forum in particular.
Quote from: "zarus tathra"I'm just trying to come up with a strategy that meshes better with atheism's generally very "lone wolf" nature. I figured that giving people tips on how to make their way through life and supplying people with arguments would be more productive than anything.
Strategy implies battle.
I'm an atheist, not a foot-soldier. Oddly enough, I felt the same way as a Christian:
I'm a Christian, not a foot-soldier.
I'm cool with ensuring separation of church and state, so that we all can disbelieve or believe as we each see fit with no government interference or bias. But I'm not much on evangelism no matter what clothing it wears. I'll discuss my atheism to someone who asks, or if the conversation makes a natural turn to the topic, but I really don't give a shit if someone agrees with my beliefs or not, so long as they don't try shoving theirs down my throat. I think it's only fair to return the courtesy.
And yes, if they're rude enough to evangelize me, they do get a cupful of "blow me".
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "zarus tathra"I'm just trying to come up with a strategy that meshes better with atheism's generally very "lone wolf" nature. I figured that giving people tips on how to make their way through life and supplying people with arguments would be more productive than anything.
Strategy implies battle.
I'm an atheist, not a foot-soldier. Oddly enough, I felt the same way as a Christian: I'm a Christian, not a foot-soldier.
I'm cool with ensuring separation of church and state, so that we all can disbelieve or believe as we each see fit with no government interference or bias. But I'm not much on evangelism no matter what clothing it wears. I'll discuss my atheism to someone who asks, or if the conversation makes a natural turn to the topic, but I really don't give a shit if someone agrees with my beliefs or not, so long as they don't try shoving theirs down my throat. I think it's only fair to return the courtesy.
And yes, if they're rude enough to evangelize me, they do get a cupful of "blow me".
Extremely well-put. :)
Including the part about the cup of blow me.
Quote from: "Solomon Zorn"Going back to the original post though, when you say, "Instead of plans and organizations, we should have protocols, rules of thumb that are easy for small groups and individual atheists to adopt," I read that as "precepts, and rules of behavior." And I have to wonder how you propose to find a consensus on what those "protocols and rules of thumb" would be. :-k
I don't think there needs to be that much consensus if these are just meant as tips and suggestions.
Quote from: "stromboli"Meeting as a group isn't the same as meeting under a set of dogmatic rules that serve to modify our behavior. A town business meeting is not a church gathering. There are differences. I don't have a problem with groups meeting for social reasons or for informational purposes, it is when you start electing officers and appointing leaders is the time I leave.
Hear, Hear
I love it when so much is said in so little space. I think this would be a great quote to use in other contexts.
Robert
Quote from: "zarus tathra"I mean that Christianity and atheism are complete opposites from a sociological standpoint.
No, Atheism is closely related to Protestantism which it grew out of, maybe not in terms of beliefs, but definitely from a sociological standpoint. Atheist religious beliefs are primarily from Plato. Atheists have faith in the idea of absolute universal truth as invented by Plato. This concept was merged with Judaism to form Christianity, and was then transmitted to Atheism.
QuoteChristianity is something that can only really exist with the help of priesthoods. People like to talk about how their particular denomination of Christianity is a special little snowflake, but everybody knows that if the Catholic Church with all its priests and funding and scholars and history were to disappear, Christianity would vanish from the Earth in like 10 years and would probably degenerate into something resembling New Age spirituality.
Neither is true. Catholicism itself is an offshoot of Orthodox Christianity, and Protestantism is an offshoot of Catholicism. Catholicism disappearing would make very little difference. Protestantism has existed for 400 years without the help of priesthoods. And all of Christianity is currently degenerating into something resembling New Age spirituality, so there is some fundamental flaw in the religion which makes it weak in the modern world.
Quote from: "Franklin"Quote from: "zarus tathra"I mean that Christianity and atheism are complete opposites from a sociological standpoint.
No, Atheism is closely related to Protestantism which it grew out of, maybe not in terms of beliefs, but definitely from a sociological standpoint. Atheist religious beliefs are primarily from Plato. Atheists have faith in the idea of absolute universal truth as invented by Plato. This concept was merged with Judaism to form Christianity, and was then transmitted to Atheism.
QuoteChristianity is something that can only really exist with the help of priesthoods. People like to talk about how their particular denomination of Christianity is a special little snowflake, but everybody knows that if the Catholic Church with all its priests and funding and scholars and history were to disappear, Christianity would vanish from the Earth in like 10 years and would probably degenerate into something resembling New Age spirituality.
Neither is true. Catholicism itself is an offshoot of Orthodox Christianity, and Protestantism is an offshoot of Catholicism. Catholicism disappearing would make very little difference. Protestantism has existed for 400 years without the help of priesthoods. And all of Christianity is currently degenerating into something resembling New Age spirituality, so there is some fundamental flaw in the religion which makes it weak in the modern world.
QuoteNo, Atheism is closely related to Protestantism which it grew out of,
Atheism didn't "grow out of" anything. Atheism is not a belief system, it is a lack of a belief system. Atheism has been around as long as religion has. You can be an atheist if you never heard of Christianity or any religion.
QuoteNeither is true. Catholicism itself is an offshoot of Orthodox Christianity,
Depends on how you define orthodox. Early Christianity prior to the creation of Catholicism was probably closer to the Communist Party in america in the 50's than anything else. It was a semi-tolerated belief system that became formal under Constantine, thanks to his mother. And the priesthoods are part and parcel to Catholicism, the single thing that most clearly separates them from Protestantism. It is the one thing held onto the hardest by the church. I'm pretty sure any Catholic would be shocked beyond measure if the priesthood disappeared.
Quote from: "Franklin"Quote from: "zarus tathra"I mean that Christianity and atheism are complete opposites from a sociological standpoint.
No, Atheism is closely related to Protestantism which it grew out of, maybe not in terms of beliefs, but definitely from a sociological standpoint. Atheist religious beliefs are primarily from Plato. Atheists have faith in the idea of absolute universal truth as invented by Plato. This concept was merged with Judaism to form Christianity, and was then transmitted to Atheism.
QuoteChristianity is something that can only really exist with the help of priesthoods. People like to talk about how their particular denomination of Christianity is a special little snowflake, but everybody knows that if the Catholic Church with all its priests and funding and scholars and history were to disappear, Christianity would vanish from the Earth in like 10 years and would probably degenerate into something resembling New Age spirituality.
Neither is true. Catholicism itself is an offshoot of Orthodox Christianity, and Protestantism is an offshoot of Catholicism. Catholicism disappearing would make very little difference. Protestantism has existed for 400 years without the help of priesthoods. And all of Christianity is currently degenerating into something resembling New Age spirituality, so there is some fundamental flaw in the religion which makes it weak in the modern world.
"Atheist religious beliefs" that is enough for anybody really to stop reading and dismiss everything else you have to say for incorrect information and libel.
I suddenly realise why you are always banned from atheist forums. You haven't a clue what atheism even means.
Quote from: "Franklin"No, Atheism is closely related to Protestantism which it grew out of, maybe not in terms of beliefs, but definitely from a sociological standpoint. Atheist religious beliefs are primarily from Plato. Atheists have faith in the idea of absolute universal truth as invented by Plato. This concept was merged with Judaism to form Christianity, and was then transmitted to Atheism.
Tommyrot. My atheism is a simple lack of faith in any god
... never mind your strawman and false history.
Quote from: "Franklin"And all of Christianity is currently degenerating into something resembling New Age spirituality, so there is some fundamental flaw in the religion which makes it weak in the modern world.
Probably has something to do with being utterly useless in understanding the real world, would be my guess.