So this might be a weird question on an atheist forum since i don't consider myself an atheist, but i would appreciate some feedback as i always get biased answers from other christians. It is a long story but i think it is important to describe how i got to my current mindset.
I have grown up in a very strict christian family and only had other christian friends growing up. I was home schooled so i didn't have much interaction with other non-christians, so i guess you could say i was very sheltered. Anyway i recently started university this year and it was my first time living away from my parents, and i could make my own decisions. I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian. At first i judged most of these people for how they lived their lives, like how they would get drunk and have sex etc. But when i got to know them i realized that a lot of them were really nice people and i consider some of them my closest friends.
One big issue that arose while i was at university was that issue of gay marriage. I always believed that homosexuality was wrong and i opposed gay marriage. I had discussions about this with some of my friends but i always stuck to my beliefs and never really listened.
I have watched porn for quite a while and although i know it is a sin, i continued to do it anyway. All my christian friends (the guys) watched porn aswell so i didn't feel like i was doing anything wrong and it was just normal. I also only watch lesbian and solo porn. I never really thought of it as hypocritical until i realized that i deny 2 women the right to get married but then i go home and get off to 2 women having sex. I was feeling guilty about this so one day i actually listened to one of my friends and he explained that just because i don't agree with gay marriage that doesn't mean i have the right to push my views onto other people. I realized that it was wrong of me to oppose gay marriage.
This lead me to question my own beliefs. I realized that my trust and belief has been in the church and my family/friands because that is how i have grown up and all ive ever known. It has been more of a lifestyle for me than an actual faith. My friends at university have also explained to me about evolution (something i had very little understanding of before) and i even started researching about it myself. I have come to the conclusion that evolution is real and this contradicts the bible. I'm not sure if i believe what it says in the bible but i do believe in evolution. I'm not sure if this makes me an atheist or not.
I know this isn't a question but i would appreciate any feedback or thoughts. Thanks.
What you describe doesn't make you an atheist, it makes you something even better. You've become a skeptic, who doesn't blindly follow what others tell him, but thinks about issues, is willing to invest time and research into matters of import, and will listen to rational arguments instead of authorative ones. And most importantly, who is willing to change his mind if better information presents itself.
I wouldn't worry too much about what you should label yourself. Instead, keep thinking about the things you have been taught and keep researching the world around you. Keep keep changing your beliefs, any of them, if information comes to light to show it to be wrong. And never stop discussing important topics like these with people but always judge the arguments on their own merit, not by the people making them.
It'll all start making sense in time. You've been sheltered from reality for a long time, but it seems you have the correct attitude to leave your shelter and experience the world for what it really is.
Welcome to the forums.
It's good that you're thinking about things.
Quote from: "rick"I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian.
I'll take a guess that "non-Christian" is being defined here as Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, or something outside your specific sect. I can't think of any college in the US where non-Christians even come close to outnumbering Christians. Probably more like 5% non-Christian would be my guess.
Edit: Although, there are a lot of Asian kids in the US now, which might change the ratio a bit.
QuoteNot sure if i want to be christian anymore?PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:20 am
For me it wasn't a matter of what I wanted. It was a matter of coming to grips with what I observed about my environment, taking a look inside myself and confronting my doubts. What things can I be sure are real? What things can I not be sure are real? Learning about the rest of the world, and often observing other Christians and their behavior. The whole thing was fairly complex at first, but in the end it comes down to what I can and cannot know about reality. For whatever reason, I ended up focusing on what I can know, rather than what I cannot know. That was not choice. It was simply the only thing that made any sense to me.
Welcome to the forum, I found out I wasn't religious a few years ago when I read the bible and found the contradictions. I realized I was an atheist a short time later.
Needless to say, there are a lot of former Christians here who understand your plight, I hope you like it here! :)
Sounds like you got a healthy dose of skepticism.
I'll echo Plu, it doesn't necessarily make you an atheist, but your attitude of figuring stuff out on your own and not taking stuff a face value but on what evidence and sound argument is behind it is a good way to not let yourself be fooled by others, or even yourself. It is something I live by: Accept that you might be wrong about something you thought was true, so you have to change your views to accommodate and try to find out what is true, or if there's lack of information simply come to terms that you simply don't know at current point in time.
If you had been raised by wolves you would likely think it was alright to run down other animals every day, kill them and eat them raw...up until on one of those hunts when you run across a McDonalds and see people just purchase their food precooked without having to chase it down.. :-k
I am glad you are in college and seeking to learn about the real world. That in itself speaks volumes about the type of person you are. It is refreshing when I see someone so young questioning the things around them. It took me over 30 years before I started really questioning things. The freedom of the mind is the best freedom IMHO. Just take it slow and explore and learn everything you can. Enjoy college and your new friends. I agree that there is no need to put a label on yourself, but I will leave you with the quote that eventually pushed me towards "atheism".
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
Welcome to the reality, we have cookies. :wink:
It must be hard for you, I know cause I've been through the same thing with Islam, so, just take it easy and don't label yourself. Be skeptical and open minded and question everything, especially the ones that have been taught by your religion so far.
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "rick"I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian.
I'll take a guess that "non-Christian" is being defined here as Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, or something outside your specific sect. I can't think of any college in the US where non-Christians even come close to outnumbering Christians. Probably more like 5% non-Christian would be my guess.
Edit: Although, there are a lot of Asian kids in the US now, which might change the ratio a bit.
Have you considered that he may not be American? (He never stated as such.)
We are all born atheists. Without being taught religion (or shoved down our throats, more likely) we would never logically conclude it exists. Really is that simple.
Quote from: "rick"So this might be a weird question on an atheist forum since i don't consider myself an atheist, but i would appreciate some feedback as i always get biased answers from other christians. It is a long story but i think it is important to describe how i got to my current mindset.
I have grown up in a very strict christian family and only had other christian friends growing up. I was home schooled so i didn't have much interaction with other non-christians, so i guess you could say i was very sheltered. Anyway i recently started university this year and it was my first time living away from my parents, and i could make my own decisions. I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian. At first i judged most of these people for how they lived their lives, like how they would get drunk and have sex etc. But when i got to know them i realized that a lot of them were really nice people and i consider some of them my closest friends.
One big issue that arose while i was at university was that issue of gay marriage. I always believed that homosexuality was wrong and i opposed gay marriage. I had discussions about this with some of my friends but i always stuck to my beliefs and never really listened.
I have watched porn for quite a while and although i know it is a sin, i continued to do it anyway. All my christian friends (the guys) watched porn aswell so i didn't feel like i was doing anything wrong and it was just normal. I also only watch lesbian and solo porn. I never really thought of it as hypocritical until i realized that i deny 2 women the right to get married but then i go home and get off to 2 women having sex. I was feeling guilty about this so one day i actually listened to one of my friends and he explained that just because i don't agree with gay marriage that doesn't mean i have the right to push my views onto other people. I realized that it was wrong of me to oppose gay marriage.
This lead me to question my own beliefs. I realized that my trust and belief has been in the church and my family/friands because that is how i have grown up and all ive ever known. It has been more of a lifestyle for me than an actual faith. My friends at university have also explained to me about evolution (something i had very little understanding of before) and i even started researching about it myself. I have come to the conclusion that evolution is real and this contradicts the bible. I'm not sure if i believe what it says in the bible but i do believe in evolution. I'm not sure if this makes me an atheist or not.
I know this isn't a question but i would appreciate any feedback or thoughts. Thanks.
That is one of the most honest accounts of a life experience I have ever read. The fact is that you sound as if you are confused, but I don't actually think that is the case. Sounds to me that you are really ready to learn and explore and coming to realize that you have to keep an open mind to do so. When you were home schooled you were sheltered from reality. Yes you were kept from the bad things that might prey upon you as a child but you were also kept from truth and facts that are necessary to learn.
I believe in science. Not because it is the answer to all things but because of the way it acquires knowledge...i.e. the scientific process. It doesn't assmue answers. Actually in most cases it leaves questions unanswered if it is incapable of producing finite absolute proof. And there is the difference in religion and science. Science will not make assunptions and needs varifiable proof. Religion has to make a huge assumption (they call it faith) and attempts to answer everything with one big pat answer. That being "the will of god." The problem occurs when science actually proves a religious tenet wrong. That is when the religious start justifying with things like "intelligent design" and other nonsense.
I will not ask you to reject your faith. I will not proslytize. I have no need to do so. I have no need to recruit anyone for any reason.
You on the otherhand must come to grips with yourself and what you find to be true.
So it is simple. Do you want to base your whole life on an assumption...faith, or do you want to rely on facts? That is your choice to make.
:-D Welcome aboard rick! You are learning to question authority and think for yourself. This is a good thing. "The truth shall set you free." Solitary
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "rick"I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian.
I'll take a guess that "non-Christian" is being defined here as Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, or something outside your specific sect. I can't think of any college in the US where non-Christians even come close to outnumbering Christians. Probably more like 5% non-Christian would be my guess.
Edit: Although, there are a lot of Asian kids in the US now, which might change the ratio a bit.
I think these days it goes something like 70% Christian, 20% 'Nones' (about a quarter of that, or 5% of the total being self-identified atheists), and 10% 'Other' (Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc.). Of course, some Christians define anyone who drinks and has sex with someone they're not married to as a 'non-Christian'.
Welcome to the forum!! I remember when I first started to question my "faith". It was quite a long process because I had been taught that my whole life, and taught I would burn in hell for turning away from it. That is quite scary. Anyway, I also remember being hurt by it also in the final analysis. You kind of go through the same motions as you do with any other "loss." Question, confusion, realization, hurt, anger type stuff.
Like everyone else said, just take it in stride.
The thing to understand is faith is just pride.
Back when I was still married, my wife worked in direct care with the mentally disabled. She was on an outing with some of the people and a co-worker when bus drove by bearing an ad for car salesman Billy Fucillo that was just a picture of him and his catchphrase, "Huge." The co-worker said, "Oh, that must be his name. Hugh."
My wife said, "No, his name is Billy. That's just's his catchphrase 'Huge.'"
The co-worker looked at her and looked at the bus and said "I still think his name is Hugh."
That's faith.
She was ill-informed, made not very careful observations, drew incorrect assumptions from that and when corrected refused to admit she was wrong. This is a trait that is praised among christians... so long as you agree with them. If not they'll stone you to death or burn you at the stake. Or at least they used to.
Their faith is not faith in their god, but in themselves. Their god isn't even an subject on the docket. It's just them expecting their word to be taken at face value without any evidence to back them up or with evidence that shows them to be wrong.
This is what you're thinking of leaving behind. I fail to see the problem.
Just remember that good ol' nonsense that all things are possible with god which is not at all true. God can't turn a cow turd into a Boeing 747 and make it fly a few hundred people across a continent, but of course many xtians apparently believe god can do quite literally ANYTHING.. There are all sorts of impossible things, but the 'faithful' will have us believe nothing is impossible...EVER with 'HIM'..
Didnt a mustard seed become a cow turd
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "rick"I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian.
I'll take a guess that "non-Christian" is being defined here as Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, or something outside your specific sect. I can't think of any college in the US where non-Christians even come close to outnumbering Christians. Probably more like 5% non-Christian would be my guess.
Edit: Although, there are a lot of Asian kids in the US now, which might change the ratio a bit.
Have you considered that he may not be American? (He never stated as such.)
Yes, I considered it. I don't know what he is, so I just took a shot in the dark. If I missed, well, that happens.
Welcome to the forum!
I've never been a Christian, so I've never had preconceptions of the world from a religious perspective to have to contend with. The world can be an equally beautiful and ugly place, but it is always one to challenge any preconceptions we may have - religiously instilled or not.
This particular youtube channel documents in depth the wealth of information he found as he learned more about the world. Whether you come to the same conclusion as him is not set in stone - you are your own person. However, hopefully you will find some comfort in knowing you are not the only one to have had conflicting thoughts pertaining to your belief.
[youtube:2iyhxddq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOmSYHzeoNA[/youtube:2iyhxddq]
Thank you everyone for such great feedback, it was very thought provoking but also made a lot of sense. It was unbiased and also very relateable which is more than i can say for the answers i got on a christian forum lol.
I can say that i accept the theory of evolution and i also do not accept the bible as truth. These 2 realizations were not related and i came to each conclusions separately. At this point in my life i feel comfortable in my views/beliefs but i will continue to keep an open mind.
Quote from: "rick"Thank you everyone for such great feedback, it was very thought provoking but also made a lot of sense. It was unbiased and also very relateable which is more than i can say for the answers i got on a christian forum lol.
I can say that i accept the theory of evolution and i also do not accept the bible as truth. These 2 realizations were not related and i came to each conclusions separately. At this point in my life i feel comfortable in my views/beliefs but i will continue to keep an open mind.
That fact right there("i came to each conclusions separately") PROVES superior intelligence!
One time I called a xtian hotline/prayer #, and told them that I was thinking of dropping my faith all together and "what do you think about that mr prayer god?" They basically said, "oh, okay". They're being stumped threw me for a loop bc I expected them to have a script ready for a christian considering atheism. I have come to the conclusion that once your eyes are opened about the subject, there is not much anyone can say to change your mind. "Wait, Jesus loves you" okay thats gay, "Wait you will burn in hell" okay thats gay too, "wait..."
It's all ludicrous. sp..?
You're not an atheist, but you're looking for your own answers. The problem is that you've been told what to think your entire life instead of being taught to think properly for yourself. Your college education will help with this. Listen to Carl Sagan and let him guide you.
http://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/lehre/pmo/e ... aloney.pdf (http://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/lehre/pmo/eng/Sagan-Baloney.pdf)
http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html (http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html)
Also, familiarize yourself with common logical fallacies people will use to trick you.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)
the fellow members have answered you beautifully. To ease you brother i will share my experience.
Though i was born in a different religion but for me every religion is lame, oh sorry same. :P they program us from the very beginning and in islam the Mullas literary recites the Azan in a child's ear to make him a Muslim by birth. Programming starts from our basic educating process and its really hard to get out of it. i was born in a muslim family and read Kuran in my early ages but did not understood anything and yes i was a very good follower. i never missed my prayers until one day I, out of my curiosity, asked the Imam ( one who stands ahead and leads the prayers) that where in kuran it is mentioned to offer five times a prayer and BOOOOOMMM, he just kicked my arse verbally that who has sent me? how did i entered into the mosque? ask your masters to come and speak for themselves. smashed my hat for nothing. it was not something to be angry. But still i did not leave my faith and complained about him in the Friday's prayer mosque (its a bigger mosque). And guess what was the answer? i was advised not to read crappy books and never listen to anybody. How lame one can be. Why cant they accept the fact that they have not read the Kuran themselves. So i just picked up a translated version read it myself. And to my utter astonishment, i found nothing but stories from start to end. some complete, some left to be understood, and for me Kuran just emphasized on imposing fear, imposing law, then reward for implementing them and wrath for not following. And i started questioning. Now prayers were not my concerns anymore. i wondered about myself seriously, how could i believe that arabic version of kuranic ayaths had powers vested in them. its a mere poetry just like Dante's Divine Comedy (Peace be upon this book :P)
.. So Brother just be curious, research, love humanity, question until you get satisfied, its all about satisfaction. I am not asking you to leave your religion. All i want is just to be satisfied. Peace.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "rick"I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian.
I'll take a guess that "non-Christian" is being defined here as Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, or something outside your specific sect. I can't think of any college in the US where non-Christians even come close to outnumbering Christians. Probably more like 5% non-Christian would be my guess.
Edit: Although, there are a lot of Asian kids in the US now, which might change the ratio a bit.
I think these days it goes something like 70% Christian, 20% 'Nones' (about a quarter of that, or 5% of the total being self-identified atheists), and 10% 'Other' (Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc.). Of course, some Christians define anyone who drinks and has sex with someone they're not married to as a 'non-Christian'.
Religions are losing members - "The number of Americans who do not identify with any religion continues to grow at a rapid pace. One-fifth of the U.S. public – and a third of adults under 30 – are religiously unaffiliated today, the highest percentages ever in Pew Research Center polling. The challenge to Christianity in the U.S. does not come from other religions but rather from a rejection of all forms of organized religion. The "Nones" (no stated religious preference, atheist, or agnostic) continue to grow, from 8.2% in 1990, to 14.1% in 2001, to 15.0% in 2008, to over 21% in 2012. 34% off all US adults under 30 are unaffiliated."
[quote="
Your name is a clue as to how the bible contradicts evolution, Eve.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Your name is a clue as to how the bible contradicts evolution, Eve.
Not at all. But I am glad to hear you. Why am I wrong?
"Eve" evolutionary Eve, that is is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve)
QuoteIn the field of human genetics, the name Mitochondrial Eve refers to the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all currently living anatomically modern humans, who is estimated to have lived approximately 140,000–200,000 years ago. This is the most recent woman from whom all living humans today descend, on their mother's side, and through the mothers of those mothers, and so on, back until all lines converge on one person. Because all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) generally (but see paternal mtDNA transmission) is passed from mother to offspring without recombination, all mtDNA in every living person is directly descended from hers by definition, differing only by the mutations that over generations have occurred in the germ cell mtDNA since the conception of the original "Mitochondrial Eve".
Versus Y Chromosome Adam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam)
QuoteThe age for the Y-MRCA has been variously estimated as 188,000,[2] 270,000,[3] 306,000,[4] and 142,000[5] A paper published in March 2013 reported an older estimate of 338,000 years.[6] Then two simultaneous reports in August 2013 provide younger estimates, one suggested 180,000 to 200,000 years,[7] and another, based on the genome sequence of nine different populations, indicated the age between 120,000 and 156,000 years.[8]
Gosh. Looks like the two never met. Sad. Our lineage is complicated and long, but it didn't start in the Garden of Eden with your god breathing life into clay. And men don't have a missing rib, and Eve wasn't made from one. If you claim to be a christian and you believe in evolution, you are denying the story in Genesis. That would be the bible, your book of holy writ.
Quote from: "stromboli""Eve" evolutionary Eve, that is is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve)
QuoteIn the field of human genetics, the name Mitochondrial Eve refers to the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all currently living anatomically modern humans, who is estimated to have lived approximately 140,000–200,000 years ago. This is the most recent woman from whom all living humans today descend, on their mother's side, and through the mothers of those mothers, and so on, back until all lines converge on one person. Because all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) generally (but see paternal mtDNA transmission) is passed from mother to offspring without recombination, all mtDNA in every living person is directly descended from hers by definition, differing only by the mutations that over generations have occurred in the germ cell mtDNA since the conception of the original "Mitochondrial Eve".
Versus Y Chromosome Adam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam)
QuoteThe age for the Y-MRCA has been variously estimated as 188,000,[2] 270,000,[3] 306,000,[4] and 142,000[5] A paper published in March 2013 reported an older estimate of 338,000 years.[6] Then two simultaneous reports in August 2013 provide younger estimates, one suggested 180,000 to 200,000 years,[7] and another, based on the genome sequence of nine different populations, indicated the age between 120,000 and 156,000 years.[8]
Gosh. Looks like the two never met. Sad. Our lineage is complicated and long, but it didn't start in the Garden of Eden with your god breathing life into clay. And men don't have a missing rib, and Eve wasn't made from one. If you claim to be a christian and you believe in evolution, you are denying the story in Genesis. That would be the bible, your book of holy writ.
Ha ha epic! :)
Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "rick"This lead me to question my own beliefs. I realized that my trust and belief has been in the church and my family/friands because that is how i have grown up and all ive ever known.
That was a mistake. Your trust should be first in God not Church. Then God would teach you the truth
---Never put your trust in a myth. Most definitely never put trust in a church. No one on this earth can prove god has spoken to them, or in anyway taught them something. Your BELIEF may have led you to feel a certain way, but god did not teach you anything. GWG
Quote from: "rick"It has been more of a lifestyle for me than an actual faith.
Exactly. Lifestyle is never a FOUNDATION of faith or trust.
---Faith: pretending to know things you don't. Faith is an epistemology. it is a method and a process people use to understand reality. Faith based conclusions are knowledge claims. Those who make faith claims are professing to know something about the external world. Faith is a failed epistemology. Showing why faith fails has been done before, and done well. (Bering 2011, Harris 2004, Loftus 2010 and 2013, McCormick 2012, Schick and Vaughn 2008, Shermer 1997 and 2011, Smith 1979, Stenger and Barker 2012, Torres 2012, Wade 2009 etc etc) If a belief is based on insufficient evidence, then any further conclusions drawn from the belief will at best be of questionable value. Believing on the basis of insufficent evidence cannot point one towards the truth.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact" James Randi
GWG
Quote from: "rick"My friends at university have also explained to me about evolution (something i had very little understanding of before) and i even started researching about it myself.
Good for you. New knowledge is always good. Education is always good. This is what God always teaches me.
---Knowledge is power. Education is the key....god can not teach you anything, because god a) existence is highly doubtful, b) doesnt speak to you, and if you hear voices, go see a doctor c) if some other human tells you they know what god wants, or they hear god, or they have god's ear...walk away, quickly
GWG
Quote from: "rick"I have come to the conclusion that evolution is real and this contradicts the bible.
Wrong conclusion. Bible even doesn't mention or explain evolution. Then how can it contradict?
---Bible has a very interesting, totally debunkable fairy tale of creationism, I recommend science. The only thing the bible contradicts is itself, as it is full of inconsistencies and contradictions. GWG
Quote from: "rick"I'm not sure if i believe what it says in the bible but i do believe in evolution. I'm not sure if this makes me an atheist or not.
You believe in evolution?!! Why? Don't you already KNOW that evolution is REAL?
---Not required to BELIEVE it, it is simply the most logical theory, backed by science.GWG
Eve also seems to be doubting their faith. They have joined a little more than a week ago, yet they already have more posts than me. It seems Eve is going through a little faith doubting self confidence crisis of their own and so they need to act like a Christian intellectual(sic) on atheistforums.com to re-assure themselves of what they think they know.
Lots of good points brought up.
To OP:
I was raised conservative Christian as well. It sounds like you are beginning to think for yourself which is a good thing. Even if you "decide" in the end you still have your Christian faith, NEVER let anyone along the way dissuade you from asking the questions you have.
From my personal experience, I finally admitted to myself I was atheist agnostic about 4 years ago....but it wasn't a choice to "become" atheist. I just realized I had always been!! Christianity never sat well with me. It never fit in my ear. It was like I was finally my authentic self. And my journey to get there started very much like yours....questioning simple things that religion can not explain.
Keep on questioning!!
Quote from: "stromboli"Our lineage is complicated and long, but it didn't start in the Garden of Eden with your god breathing life into clay.
I agree with you.
But Bible doesn't say it(lineage) is simple and that it starts in the Garden of Eden.
Please, help me to find this:
1)place in the Bible where it says that our lineage started in the Garden of Eden?
2)place where it says when exactly Adam and Eve were created?
Thank you in advance.
Quote from: "stromboli"Gosh. Looks like the two never met. Sad.
May be you are right but please show me the place in the Bible were it says how long Adam lived before he was placed in the Garden of Eden? And where does it say that Adam didn't have any ancestors before he was placed in the Garden of Eden?
Quote from: "stromboli"And men don't have a missing rib, and Eve wasn't made from one. If you claim to be a christian and you believe in evolution, you are denying the story in Genesis. That would be the bible, your book of holy writ.
I agree but Bible is silent about how to understand this. In verse 24 we read that Adam and Eve shall be one flesh. But does Bible tell us how to understand this? A: No. It can mean that they will get one body literally. Or it can mean that they will become one union/one family and will have children. Or they will have unity in everything - love, faith, goals.
"Eve was taken out of rib". It can mean that Eve was created literally out of Adams rib. It can mean that wife or woman was created always to be on her husband's side. I f this is correct understanding then we don't know where, how and when Eve was created. Then Bible is silent about Eve's literal creation and if she had any ancestors.
Bible does say that Adam and Eve were created in the IMAGE AND LIKENESS of Gods( in OUR image) - male and female. We may assume that Gods are Male and Female and They gave Their DNA to Adam and Eve.
So how do you know how to understand this(about rib and one flesh) if Bible doesn't explain?
The decision of how to live your life and your world view should be based on researching the evidence to determine that conclusion........regardless of what you want or what others say you should strive to establish your position based on what you can demonstrate and confirm as reliable through exercising critical thinking.
My path to the jettison of my faith came about by a careful and opened minded study of the sourcing of biblical manuscripts and the dubious construction of the biblical canon. I knew after realizing what many are taught in seminary that even conservatives know there is ample questioning among the validity of what is claimed as factual events and statements throughout the bible.
It became apparent to me that the bible is not a text of an inspired holy source but a manipulation (if even benevolently) of human insecurities placed on a supernatural agent......and that it sources of copies claimed from oral traditional hersay is no way to establish any truth to what happened in those times..........In fact the desire for Christian apologists attempting to validate eyewitness accounts is a dangerous assumption of their accuracy as we know how inaccurate they can be as well.
But you must determine your own conclusions by an independent study of the bible's source and creation.............
With all the problems in the biblical text I read as a believer and all the science education I had in conflict with the bible.......I still held on to my belief until I realized the biblical text is no more credible in divinity claims as any other ancient textual mythology.
Quote from: "goodwithoutgod"---Not required to BELIEVE it, it is simply the most logical theory, backed by science.GWG
I don't argue with this logical theory. I am not a scientist and I am not a pro in biology but I do know one thing: Bible does NOT contradict evolution. Depends how you understand Bible.
see my post above if you wish of course.
Eve, you need to learn Serpentise and talk to a serpent, learn mulette to talk to a mule, and learn Bushette to talk to a burning Bush, and they will teach you to understand who the other gods God talked to and what the BuyBul means. First thing you have to do is have an open mind so open your brain falls out. Solitary
Quote from: "Solitary"Eve, you need to learn Serpentise and talk to a serpent, learn mulette to talk to a mule, and learn Bushette to talk to a burning Bush, and they will teach you to understand who the other gods God talked to and what the BuyBul means. First thing you have to do is have an open mind so open your brain falls out. Solitary
Solitary, there is one FACT: prophets of the Bible used symbols when they were writing their books. Read Book of Revelation and tell me what language you need to speak to understand what John was talking about.
Scriptures are full of symbols. And there are reasons for that. One of the reason is that BELIEVERS will LEARN and REMEMBER faster and better but for unbeliers it will be HIDDEN manna.
Unbelievers can NOT have PRIVILEGE to understand symbolic language of the prophets.
But still: where does it say in the Bible that Adam was created in the Garden of Eden and that he had no lineage? male and female were created in OUR image. Who are "Us"?
Quote from: "Loneboat"Lots of good points brought up.
Christianity never sat well with me. It never fit in my ear. It was like I was finally my authentic self. And my journey to get there started very much like yours....questioning simple things that religion can not explain.
Keep on questioning!!
It didn't fit in my ear until I heard Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. It answered almost all MY questions and I am sure it can answer almost all your questions.
Welcome and I wish you the best. I hope your family will understand you and respect your believes. It is very important.
Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "Solitary"Scriptures are full of symbols. And there are reasons for that. One of the reason is that BELIEVERS will LEARN and REMEMBER faster and better but for unbeliers it will be HIDDEN manna.
Unbelievers can NOT have PRIVILEGE to understand symbolic language of the prophets.
oh hahaha :rollin: so you will understand better if i go all poetic mode instead of telling it straight? poetic resources have their place, in literature that is, when you are trying to teach people you tell it like it is and in detail, if you try to riddle your writing with subjective metaphors you get kicked in the butt in any respectable academic circle.
seems to me that what you really meant was that believers will find whatever interpretation they want and make it fit with their preconceived notions like you and every other believer does and that is why they can't agree with each other, which proves that it is not a better way to clearly communicate a message.
And believing in bullshit or not has nothing to do with being able to interpret symbols I have been reading classic literature since i was 10, literary analysis and interpreting symbols is probably my best skill, I understand all interpretation are subjective in the end , specially when dealing with texts so cryptic, ancient and messed up by translations. So no believers don't have a magic power of interpretation, much less you with the deficient analysis skills you have shown (we have 30 pages of you being more dense than a block of osmium)
Quote from: "Eve"But Bible doesn't say it(lineage) is simple and that it starts in the Garden of Eden
1)place in the Bible where it says that our lineage started in the Garden of Eden?
2)place where it says when exactly Adam and Eve were created?...
May be you are right but please show me the place in the Bible were it says how long Adam lived before he was placed in the Garden of Eden? And where does it say that Adam didn't have any ancestors before he was placed in the Garden of Eden?...
In verse 24 we read that Adam and Eve shall be one flesh. But does Bible tell us how to understand this? A: No. It can mean that they will get one body literally. Or it can mean that they will become one union/one family and will have children. Or they will have unity in everything - love, faith, goals...
So how do you know how to understand this(about rib and one flesh) if Bible doesn't explain?...
I can't show you much of any place in the Bible that explains why such literal statements should be accepted as metaphors. I can't find a place in the Bible that says these supposedly metaphorical statements are not meant to be literal. The purpose of the Bible is not to show itself to be false. You are saying the Bible is not literally true, but that it's not false either.
How am I, as a rational person, supposed to make any sense out of that kind of thinking? It's not really true, but it's not really false? You can't have it both ways, unless you are willing to accept that such self contradictory gibberish has magic properties that only allows believers to understand the meaning.
If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution? No, no! That would be too simple. It has to be written as a metaphor that hides the mechanics of evolution in such a way that it ends up saying something that ancient men accepted as literal, but modern discoverers can only accept as metaphors. But at all costs it apparently must avoid explaining reality as it is.
Why is that? The simple explanation is that the Bible doesn't know what it's talking about. It's just stories made up by uneducated people for other uneducated people 3000 years ago. As far as explaining reality and contributing to man's scientific progress, it's totally useless. Its only purpose is feeding simple minds that want to believe they are descendants of a powerful god, and that they will live forever. That's nice and all for those with massively inflated egos, but reality isn't all that bad. It offers a lot of good things in life that religions claim their gods created. Atheists just accept them as good without making them into miracles. You don't need magic to exist. It won't make you a better person, and it won't make you live forever. Magic is not real. You need to accept that.
Quote from: "SGOS"If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution?
Better question: If the Bible is full of scientific facts, why is it written more like its contemporary mythology than its contemporary science?
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "SGOS"If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution?
Better question: If the Bible is full of scientific facts, why is it written more like its contemporary mythology than its contemporary science?
I like both of these questions.
I like them because the answer is: "The bible is bologna"
Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "SGOS"If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution?
Better question: If the Bible is full of scientific facts, why is it written more like its contemporary mythology than its contemporary science?
I like both of these questions.
I like them because the answer is: "The bible is bologna"
Believe it or not, "baloney" is actually a proper term in English now. We're no longer chained to that inferior francophone spelling. 8-)
The bible is a low quality book of fiction.
Quote from: "mauricio"oh hahaha :rollin: so you will understand better if i go all poetic mode instead of telling it straight?
ONLY if you want me to understand you and at the same time you don't want another person to understand you.
If this is the case you will do this:
you will go all poetic, you will explain to me(give me an understanding) and you will not explain to another person.
I will understand but for another person it will be hidden manna
Quote from: "mauricio"poetic resources have their place, in literature that is, when you are trying to teach people you tell it like it is and in detail, if you try to riddle your writing with subjective metaphors you get kicked in the butt in any respectable academic circle.
I agree. Unless you have a task: make sure that NOT all people understand you but only those to whom you give this PRIVILEGE.
Quote from: "mauricio"seems to me that what you really meant was that believers will find whatever interpretation they want and make it fit with their preconceived notions like you and every other believer does and that is why they can't agree with each other, which proves that it is not a better way to clearly communicate a message.
Not at all. Believers MAY understand parts of the truth according to their faith. Believers do not have equal faith. And not all believers believe in true God. For them who don't belive in true God a lot of things in the Scriptures is also hidden manna
Quote from: "mauricio"And believing in bullshit or not has nothing to do with being able to interpret symbols I have been reading classic literature since i was 10, literary analysis and interpreting symbols is probably my best skill, I understand all interpretation are subjective in the end , specially when dealing with texts so cryptic, ancient and messed up by translations. So no believers don't have a magic power of interpretation, much less you with the deficient analysis skills you have shown (we have 30 pages of you being more dense than a block of osmium)
If true God will not give you an understanding of His symbols you will never understand them.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Believe it or not, "baloney" is actually a proper term in English now. We're no longer chained to that inferior francophone spelling. 8-)
I didn't know that. Similarly, did you know they changed the grammar usage of "because" and now you can say things like "Because science" or "because internet" It's actually correct grammar now, which I found mildly disturbing... in a humorous way. :lol:
Quote from: "SGOS"I can't show you much of any place in the Bible that explains why such literal statements should be accepted as metaphors.
Exactly. That is why you can not know if words of the Prophets are literal or symbols/metaphoros.
If you say:"it is literal" it will be your assumption. If you say:"it is metaphors" it will be your assumption.
THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU KNOW FOR SURE WHAT IS LITERAL AND WHAT IS METAPHOR?
Quote from: "SGOS"I can't find a place in the Bible that says these supposedly metaphorical statements are not meant to be literal. The purpose of the Bible is not to show itself to be false. You are saying the Bible is not literally true, but that it's not false either.
What I say is this: Prophets of true God use metaphoros or symbolic language in many cases. But not always.
Quote from: "SGOS"How am I, as a rational person, supposed to make any sense out of that kind of thinking? It's not really true, but it's not really false? You can't have it both ways, unless you are willing to accept that such self contradictory gibberish has magic properties that only allows believers to understand the meaning.
There is nothing wrong with using symbols. I can say that God's voice is rushing waters. It is symbolism and there is nothing false about it only EXPLAINS BETTER what kind of EFFECT His voice makes on the person.
When I hear rushing waters I think about something very powerful but at the same time it makes me feel more calm, makes me sit down and relax and may be even meditate.
Quote from: "SGOS"If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution?
Where does Bible say that it talks about evolution?
Let me educate you about something. Mission of the Prophets of God is to teach about judicial laws of God and how to apply them in every day life and not about natural laws.
It is scientist mission to teach and explain natural laws and teach how to apply those laws in every day life.
Quote from: "SGOS"No, no! That would be too simple. It has to be written as a metaphor that hides the mechanics of evolution in such a way that it ends up saying something that ancient men accepted as literal, but modern discoverers can only accept as metaphors. But at all costs it apparently must avoid explaining reality as it is.
Evolution is natural law. Prophet's mission to teach God's judicial laws.
Quote from: "SGOS"Atheists just accept them as good without making them into miracles.
What is a miracle? Miracle is something that happened but can not be understood and explained.
Quote from: "SGOS"You don't need magic to exist.
I agree. Prophets say nothing about magic.
Quote from: "SGOS"It won't make you a better person, and it won't make you live forever. Magic is not real. You need to accept that.
I ACCEPT that magic is not real. :-D That is why I never believed that magic will make me live forever.
Quote from: "leo"The bible is a low quality book of fiction.
that has to be proven. Unless you want to BELIEVE in this statement.
But for sure Bible does NOT contradict evolution.
So, what was the lineage of Adam and Eve according to the Bible/Prophet Moses?
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "SGOS"If the Bible is actually talking about evolution, and if it's actually inspired by God, why doesn't it just explain the basic principles of evolution?
Better question: If the Bible is full of scientific facts, why is it written more like its contemporary mythology than its contemporary science?
But THE BEST question of all is this:
WHERE DOES BIBLE CLAIM TO BE FULL OF SCIENTIFIC FACTS?
:-D
Quote from: "Eve"blablabla bunch-o-bullshit
yeah whatever we already get it that in your mind you are oh so special, that the ONE true big sky daddy specifically talks to you and shit as almost every other self-important delusional ape that came before you.
I see, nobody can show me where Bible contradicts evolution. Nobody can show me that biblical Adam didn't have lineage.
Opposite Bible says that he had.
Quote from: "Eve"I see, nobody can show me where Bible contradicts evolution. Nobody can show me that biblical Adam didn't have lineage.
Opposite Bible says that he had.
You do realize that two people don't have a large enough gene pool to populate the Earth, right?
Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "Eve"I see, nobody can show me where Bible contradicts evolution. Nobody can show me that biblical Adam didn't have lineage.
Opposite Bible says that he had.
You do realize that two people don't have a large enough gene pool to populate the Earth, right?
I do realize that. But why didn't Adam and Eve have large enough gene pool?
Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "_Xenu_"Quote from: "Eve"I see, nobody can show me where Bible contradicts evolution. Nobody can show me that biblical Adam didn't have lineage.
Opposite Bible says that he had.
You do realize that two people don't have a large enough gene pool to populate the Earth, right?
I do realize that. But why didn't Adam and Eve have large enough gene pool?
(//http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/Courius/SuperEpicFacepalm.jpg)
Quote from: "mykcob4"[
That is one of the most honest accounts of a life experience I have ever read. The fact is that you sound as if you are confused, but I don't actually think that is the case. Sounds to me that you are really ready to learn and explore and coming to realize that you have to keep an open mind to do so. When you were home schooled you were sheltered from reality. Yes you were kept from the bad things that might prey upon you as a child but you were also kept from truth and facts that are necessary to learn.
I believe in science. Not because it is the answer to all things but because of the way it acquires knowledge...i.e. the scientific process. It doesn't assmue answers. Actually in most cases it leaves questions unanswered if it is incapable of producing finite absolute proof. And there is the difference in religion and science. Science will not make assunptions and needs varifiable proof. Religion has to make a huge assumption (they call it faith) and attempts to answer everything with one big pat answer. That being "the will of god." The problem occurs when science actually proves a religious tenet wrong. That is when the religious start justifying with things like "intelligent design" and other nonsense.
I will not ask you to reject your faith. I will not proslytize. I have no need to do so. I have no need to recruit anyone for any reason.
You on the otherhand must come to grips with yourself and what you find to be true.
So it is simple. Do you want to base your whole life on an assumption...faith, or do you want to rely on facts? That is your choice to make.
The best post I've ever read on AF. Kudos. =D>
Quote from: "rick"So this might be a weird question on an atheist forum since i don't consider myself an atheist, but i would appreciate some feedback as i always get biased answers from other christians. It is a long story but i think it is important to describe how i got to my current mindset.
I have grown up in a very strict christian family and only had other christian friends growing up. I was home schooled so i didn't have much interaction with other non-christians, so i guess you could say i was very sheltered. Anyway i recently started university this year and it was my first time living away from my parents, and i could make my own decisions. I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian. At first i judged most of these people for how they lived their lives, like how they would get drunk and have sex etc. But when i got to know them i realized that a lot of them were really nice people and i consider some of them my closest friends.
One big issue that arose while i was at university was that issue of gay marriage. I always believed that homosexuality was wrong and i opposed gay marriage. I had discussions about this with some of my friends but i always stuck to my beliefs and never really listened.
I have watched porn for quite a while and although i know it is a sin, i continued to do it anyway. All my christian friends (the guys) watched porn aswell so i didn't feel like i was doing anything wrong and it was just normal. I also only watch lesbian and solo porn. I never really thought of it as hypocritical until i realized that i deny 2 women the right to get married but then i go home and get off to 2 women having sex. I was feeling guilty about this so one day i actually listened to one of my friends and he explained that just because i don't agree with gay marriage that doesn't mean i have the right to push my views onto other people. I realized that it was wrong of me to oppose gay marriage.
This lead me to question my own beliefs. I realized that my trust and belief has been in the church and my family/friands because that is how i have grown up and all ive ever known. It has been more of a lifestyle for me than an actual faith. My friends at university have also explained to me about evolution (something i had very little understanding of before) and i even started researching about it myself. I have come to the conclusion that evolution is real and this contradicts the bible. I'm not sure if i believe what it says in the bible but i do believe in evolution. I'm not sure if this makes me an atheist or not.
I know this isn't a question but i would appreciate any feedback or thoughts. Thanks.
Friend you were following a blind faith which even god says to seek for answers. It seems to me that you were never really saved and just following and abiding by the rules of others. And evolution? you got alot bigger problems than that. explain how the whole universe came into being with and explosion of laws and physics that know-one knows how it happened for sure except a couple of theory's that always come along.Everything came to being by chance? You need more faith to believe in evolution and no god than to believe in God. :-D
Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about evolution at all!!! And the bible is not full of Scientific facts!!
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about evolution at all!!! And the bible is not full of Scientific facts!!
The bible is bullshit . That's all.
Rick,
A great place to start executing some in-depth research is http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/outline.html (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/outline.html)
This site will do wonders for people who are willing to take off the religious blinders!
Eve/Jackdaw, proceed with caution!!!!
Quote from: "leo"Quote from: "Jackdaw"Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about evolution at all!!! And the bible is not full of Scientific facts!!
The bible is bullshit . That's all.
maybe because you don't know anything about it
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Quote from: "leo"Quote from: "Jackdaw"Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about evolution at all!!! And the bible is not full of Scientific facts!!
The bible is bullshit . That's all.
maybe because you don't know anything about it
Yo, Jackdaw. Many of us here came out of religious backgrounds. I was a Mormon who converted to Christianity before becoming an atheist. I was a youth leader and worship coordinator for a few years. The Bible is a compilation of different writings that were edited and put together over time to agree with the prevailing beliefs of that period.
Here is the scripture that changed my life:
1 Thess. 5:21; "prove all things; hold fast to that which is good."
And now I am an atheist. Study the links, read counter arguments to what you believe and test your faith. The Bible demands it.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Quote from: "leo"Quote from: "Jackdaw"Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about evolution at all!!! And the bible is not full of Scientific facts!!
The bible is bullshit . That's all.
maybe because you don't know anything about it
You should read the bible from cover to cover without cherry picking. :wink:
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Quote from: "leo"Quote from: "Jackdaw"Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about evolution at all!!! And the bible is not full of Scientific facts!!
The bible is bullshit . That's all.
maybe because you don't know anything about it
You don't have to know much about the Bible. All you have to do is read one part (just one) that describes something absurd, impossible, or incorrect. At that time, a rational person would know right away that Biblical claims to infallibility are false. At that point, the mythology begins to unravel, and s reasoned person will realize that the path to sanity involves letting go of all superstitious beliefs, including those claimed by Christianity (which is just one more superstition among many). The alternative is to live in a world that resembles a Peter Pan movie.
Having said that, it is not uncommon for Christians to believe that atheists know nothing about the Bible, and that they lack the Christian ability to magically believe in things that support faith. But that's a false stereotype. Many atheists are Biblical scholars, and a large percentage of atheists know more about the Bible than the most Christians.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Quote from: "leo"Quote from: "Jackdaw"Nowhere in the bible does it say anything about evolution at all!!! And the bible is not full of Scientific facts!!
The bible is bullshit . That's all.
maybe because you don't know anything about it
Trust me when I say that the vast majority of atheists know more about the Bible than even the most well-versed Christian.
Where does Bible contradict evolution? Where does Bible say that Adam had no ancestors before he was placed on Earth?
You'd think the part where he is created from dust or something makes it a bit hard to have ancestors.
Quote from: "Plu"You'd think the part where he is created from dust or something makes it a bit hard to have ancestors.
If I say that I am created out of elements? Why should you assume that I don't have ancestors?
Where does Bible say that Adam had no ancestors? Where does Bible contradict evolution? :-k
QuoteIf I say that I am created out of elements? Why should you assume that I don't have ancestors?
If you were forged directly out of dust, I would assume that you had no ancenstors. If you were created from elements inside your mothers womb and it was written like it was in the bible, I would fire the guy writing the book for being a useless twat.
So either adam has no ancestors or the bible is laughably stupid and completely impossible to follow in its descriptions. Neither looks very good to me.
Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "Plu"You'd think the part where he is created from dust or something makes it a bit hard to have ancestors.
If I say that I am created out of elements? Why should you assume that I don't have ancestors?
Where does Bible say that Adam had no ancestors? Where does Bible contradict evolution? :-k
:rollin: :rollin:
Quote from: "Plu"If you were forged directly out of dust, I would assume that you had no ancenstors.
Please, DON'T ASSUME. Where is the word 'DIRECTLY" in the Bible? Nature FORMED me from elements. I don't have ancestors?!
Quote from: "Plu"So either adam has no ancestors or the bible is laughably stupid and completely impossible to follow in its descriptions. Neither looks very good to me.
How about your ASSUMPTION has nothing to do with what Bible says? Where are the words:" Adam was DIRECTLY formed from the dust?"
Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "Plu"If you were forged directly out of dust, I would assume that you had no ancenstors.
Please, DON'T ASSUME. Where is the word 'DIRECTLY" in the Bible? Nature FORMED me from elements. I don't have ancestors?!
If you don't assume, the bible is just a large stack of gibberish. That's the whole problem. The bible can say whatever you want it to say, which makes anything is says meaningless.
Quote from: "rick"So this might be a weird question on an atheist forum since i don't consider myself an atheist, but i would appreciate some feedback as i always get biased answers from other christians. It is a long story but i think it is important to describe how i got to my current mindset.
I have grown up in a very strict christian family and only had other christian friends growing up. I was home schooled so i didn't have much interaction with other non-christians, so i guess you could say i was very sheltered. Anyway i recently started university this year and it was my first time living away from my parents, and i could make my own decisions. I met new christian friends but obviously most of the people i met were non-christian. At first i judged most of these people for how they lived their lives, like how they would get drunk and have sex etc. But when i got to know them i realized that a lot of them were really nice people and i consider some of them my closest friends.
One big issue that arose while i was at university was that issue of gay marriage. I always believed that homosexuality was wrong and i opposed gay marriage. I had discussions about this with some of my friends but i always stuck to my beliefs and never really listened.
I have watched porn for quite a while and although i know it is a sin, i continued to do it anyway. All my christian friends (the guys) watched porn aswell so i didn't feel like i was doing anything wrong and it was just normal. I also only watch lesbian and solo porn. I never really thought of it as hypocritical until i realized that i deny 2 women the right to get married but then i go home and get off to 2 women having sex. I was feeling guilty about this so one day i actually listened to one of my friends and he explained that just because i don't agree with gay marriage that doesn't mean i have the right to push my views onto other people. I realized that it was wrong of me to oppose gay marriage.
This lead me to question my own beliefs. I realized that my trust and belief has been in the church and my family/friands because that is how i have grown up and all ive ever known. It has been more of a lifestyle for me than an actual faith. My friends at university have also explained to me about evolution (something i had very little understanding of before) and i even started researching about it myself. I have come to the conclusion that evolution is real and this contradicts the bible. I'm not sure if i believe what it says in the bible but i do believe in evolution. I'm not sure if this makes me an atheist or not.
I know this isn't a question but i would appreciate any feedback or thoughts. Thanks.
Hi there!
It's always a confusing time when you begin to question all the things you were ingrained with as a child. You grow up, start to see the world with new eyes, and then the illusion starts to shatter. Most of us here went through the same thing. The Bible, Christianity, other Christians....it all stopped making sense as I experienced the world for myself.
First of all, accepting evolution doesn't make you an atheist. Many Christians accept evolution and choose to view the stories in the Bible as allegories, or whatever. An atheist is someone who lacks a belief in a deity. That's all. We're all very different in our other views and lifestyles...the only thing we have in common is that we don't believe there is any type of god. I met an atheist once who didn't believe in evolution!
Also, if you want to learn more about evolution, we've created a thread here (//http://www.atheistforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=2399) for any one who wants to check it out.
I think eventually you will come to see what religion really is....a comfort blanket that some people need in order to make sense of their lives and the world around them. Some people need arbitrary rules and a sense of authority looking over them...and some of us just see the world for what it is and accept that. To me, sin is Self Induced Nonsense. As long as they are not hurting others, I believe people should be free to live as they want to live. Religion never made sense to me.
Feel free to look around the forum and ask as many questions as you want!
Quote from: "Plu"Quote from: "Eve"Quote from: "Plu"If you were forged directly out of dust, I would assume that you had no ancenstors.
Please, DON'T ASSUME. Where is the word 'DIRECTLY" in the Bible? Nature FORMED me from elements. I don't have ancestors?!
If you don't assume, the bible is just a large stack of gibberish. That's the whole problem. The bible can say whatever you want it to say, which makes anything is says meaningless.
Then assume CORRECTLY. And it won't be a large stack of gibberish.
1) Bible doesn't say that Adam was created on this Earth.
2) Bible doesn't say that he was directly formed from the dust.
3) Bible says Adam that was created in the image and likeness of one of Them.
P.S. I am created in the image and likeness of my parents. I have ancestors.
QuoteThen assume CORRECTLY. And it won't be a large stack of gibberish.
We lack a metric to determine correctness, that's why after 2000 years of being useless the bible is still around.
I can't believe we are discussing what the Bible says or does not say. It's a document that lacks credibility. Why bother niggling over it's meaning? Leave that useless endeavor to the priests and rabbis. Whether you assume it supports evolution, the beginning of life, or the creation of the universe, it's the worst source of information available. To debate what those ancient goat herders were thinking is a waste of time.
QuoteQuotemaybe because you don't know anything about it
Yo, Jackdaw. Many of us here came out of religious backgrounds. I was a Mormon who converted to Christianity before becoming an atheist. I was a youth leader and worship coordinator for a few years. The Bible is a compilation of different writings that were edited and put together over time to agree with the prevailing beliefs of that period.
Here is the scripture that changed my life:
1 Thess. 5:21; "prove all things; hold fast to that which is good."
And now I am an atheist. Study the links, read counter arguments to what you believe and test your faith. The Bible demands it.
Agreed but you can still test your faith without becoming a atheist and rejecting what the bible is. HOLD FAST TO WHICH IS GOOD did you do that ? or did you never think it was good so in that case you were never saved and never asked for salvation. Like most people growing up in a religous home and just going along with the surroundings of their parents and schools they were raised in following their faith blindly and then come to an atheist forum like this to see if its just a big hoax or not and totally not helping them find the answers they want. If you want to learn more about the bible and if its real and actually understand the message of it, this is not the place to go!Find some other sources :wink: And I agree with most of the guys on this thread that religion is stupid and a waste of time! Christianity is not about earning your way into heaven its about a relationship with god, no other religion like it.
Not a lot of people come here to convert, actually. Most people come here after they converted themselves. We don't help much in the proces either. If you've read this thread, most of the advice is basically "see/think for yourself, you'll figure it out".
The problem with different sources is that the OP actually tried them, and their advice is basically "accept it first, then it'll make sense", which is really dumb advice.
(And having a relationship with god, who when observed scientifically is simply your own subconscious, is definately a good idea, but we do the same thing, it's just that we get who we're talking with)
I'm thinking of converting to tooth fairy religion . I will be the highest priest. I want tons of hot women and millions of dollars. Expensive cars etc.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Christianity is not about earning your way into heaven its about a relationship with god, no other religion like it.
There are millions of Christians that would disagree with you. A relationship with God? I'll give you a conditional pass on that claim, but Christianity is also very much about earning your way into heaven. Why else would the Bible give such explicit instructions about how to do it?
Your particular emphasis that it's about a relationship with God is idiosyncratic, and attempts to exclude other aspects of the religion. It also implies that other religions don't do that. That specific emphasis, accompanied by the claim that no other religion is like it, is demonstrably false. Most religions are about a relationship with God.
There are unique aspects of Christianity, but there are unique aspects to every other religion. But a course in philosophy of religion, or in comparative religions will give you an idea of how similar the major religions of today are. Many tell the same stories with small variations, have central characters that strongly resemble those in Christianity, and they have similar rules and regulations. The biggest similarity is that they must all be accepted on faith since they can offer no proof of their truths.
While Christianity has unique aspects, it's very much the same as the others, because, at it's heart, it depends on the same superstitious thought processes. Overall, there's not much of significance that makes Christianity that different from other religions, which you don't accept as true. For Christians, the main difference, is that they believe their religion is true, and the others are false, which makes it pretty much the same as the others.
I used to be a Christian until I started thinking about things like this. It didn't help that the stories and claims are unverifiable and sometimes just plain nutty, either.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Christianity is not about earning your way into heaven its about a relationship with god, no other religion like it.
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are about the only religions left that
have a heaven, mate.
Quote from: "leo"I'm thinking of converting to tooth fairy religion . I will be the highest priest. I want tons of hot women and millions of dollars. Expensive cars etc.
Well, you're on the right track. That's what it's about. I would offer a suggestion, if I might. Pick a central figure other than the tooth fairy. For some reason, there seems to be a common bias, even among stupid people, that the tooth fairy is just a myth. I think it would be better to make up some character entirely new, which has not yet been rejected in the collective consciousness of the rabble. Unicorns would be better, but they have a bias against them, also. Why that should be is hard to say, since no one can actually prove they don't exist. You could probably start something based on Big Foot, which does have a following of committed believers, but I think I'd go with something fresh. :-D
Quote from: "leo"I'm thinking of converting to tooth fairy religion . I will be the highest priest. I want tons of hot women and millions of dollars. Expensive cars etc.
No no, join my CPU! Church of the Purple Unicorn, he farts rainbow sprinkles and answers all of your desires for only a mere 9% tithing made out to goodwithoutgod! Get a front row seat today!
:rollin:
Quote from: "Eve"Then assume CORRECTLY. And it won't be a large stack of gibberish.
1) Bible doesn't say that Adam was created on this Earth.
2) Bible doesn't say that he was directly formed from the dust.
3) Bible says Adam that was created in the image and likeness of one of Them.
P.S. I am created in the image and likeness of my parents. I have ancestors.
I love points of view like this. "In genesis 2:5 it doesnt say how long that was or WHEN!" *cue dramatic music* wow isn't that convenient. Adam was created on plent Xenu by four purple unicorns, just read the holy unicorn script and all will become apparent to you, but ONLY if you TRULY believe..revelation is only for the select few afterall.
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Jackdaw"Christianity is not about earning your way into heaven its about a relationship with god, no other religion like it.
There are millions of Christians that would disagree with you. A relationship with God? I'll give you a conditional pass on that claim, but Christianity is also very much about earning your way into heaven. Why else would the Bible give such explicit instructions about how to do it?
Your particular emphasis that it's about a relationship with God is idiosyncratic, and attempts to exclude other aspects of the religion. It also implies that other religions don't do that. That specific emphasis, accompanied by the claim that no other religion is like it, is demonstrably false. Most religions are about a relationship with God.
There are unique aspects of Christianity, but there are unique aspects to every other religion. But a course in philosophy of religion, or in comparative religions will give you an idea of how similar the major religions of today are. Many tell the same stories with small variations, have central characters that strongly resemble those in Christianity, and they have similar rules and regulations. The biggest similarity is that they must all be accepted on faith since they can offer no proof of their truths.
While Christianity has unique aspects, it's very much the same as the others, because, at it's heart, it depends on the same superstitious thought processes. Overall, there's not much of significance that makes Christianity that different from other religions, which you don't accept as true. For Christians, the main difference, is that they believe their religion is true, and the others are false, which makes it pretty much the same as the others.
I used to be a Christian until I started thinking about things like this. It didn't help that the stories and claims are unverifiable and sometimes just plain nutty, either.
HOW BOUT THE BIBLE! its a book of predicted prophecies that have come true! what other religion has that? And the bible only says that you are saved by gods grace not what you have to do to earn your way!Earning your way into heaven is what the catholic church teaches and the book of Mormon and other religions. Ephesians 2:8-10
Quote from: "Jackdaw"HOW BOUT THE BIBLE! its a book of predicted prophecies that have come true! what other religion has that? And the bible only says that you are saved by gods grace not what you have to do to earn your way!Earning your way into heaven is what the catholic church teaches and the book of Mormon and other religions. Ephesians 2:8-10
Oh? Which "prophecies" are these?
And as for the "saved by grace, not by works" thing...depends on your denomination. None of you Christians seem to agree on what your BIBLE actually means. It's a silly book.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"HOW BOUT THE BIBLE! its a book of predicted prophecies that have come true!
Stop lying. (//http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html)
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "Jackdaw"Christianity is not about earning your way into heaven its about a relationship with god, no other religion like it.
There are millions of Christians that would disagree with you. A relationship with God? I'll give you a conditional pass on that claim, but Christianity is also very much about earning your way into heaven. Why else would the Bible give such explicit instructions about how to do it?
Your particular emphasis that it's about a relationship with God is idiosyncratic, and attempts to exclude other aspects of the religion. It also implies that other religions don't do that. That specific emphasis, accompanied by the claim that no other religion is like it, is demonstrably false. Most religions are about a relationship with God.
There are unique aspects of Christianity, but there are unique aspects to every other religion. But a course in philosophy of religion, or in comparative religions will give you an idea of how similar the major religions of today are. Many tell the same stories with small variations, have central characters that strongly resemble those in Christianity, and they have similar rules and regulations. The biggest similarity is that they must all be accepted on faith since they can offer no proof of their truths.
While Christianity has unique aspects, it's very much the same as the others, because, at it's heart, it depends on the same superstitious thought processes. Overall, there's not much of significance that makes Christianity that different from other religions, which you don't accept as true. For Christians, the main difference, is that they believe their religion is true, and the others are false, which makes it pretty much the same as the others.
I used to be a Christian until I started thinking about things like this. It didn't help that the stories and claims are unverifiable and sometimes just plain nutty, either.
HOW BOUT THE BIBLE! its a book of predicted prophecies that have come true! what other religion has that? And the bible only says that you are saved by gods grace not what you have to do to earn your way!Earning your way into heaven is what the catholic church teaches and the book of Mormon and other religions. Ephesians 2:8-10
So we are not responsible for our actions. Believers can do anything they want and go to heaven. Subscribing to Christian bullshit is the only condition. How convenient! By the way hi funny troll ! 8-)
Quote from: "goodwithoutgod"Quote from: "leo"I'm thinking of converting to tooth fairy religion . I will be the highest priest. I want tons of hot women and millions of dollars. Expensive cars etc.
No no, join my CPU! Church of the Purple Unicorn, he farts rainbow sprinkles and answers all of your desires for only a mere 9% tithing made out to goodwithoutgod! Get a front row seat today!
:rollin:
I like this god maybe we can join the tooth fairy with the purple unicorn. With need another god for the trinity. :rollin:
Quote from: "SGOS"Quote from: "leo"I'm thinking of converting to tooth fairy religion . I will be the highest priest. I want tons of hot women and millions of dollars. Expensive cars etc.
Well, you're on the right track. That's what it's about. I would offer a suggestion, if I might. Pick a central figure other than the tooth fairy. For some reason, there seems to be a common bias, even among stupid people, that the tooth fairy is just a myth. I think it would be better to make up some character entirely new, which has not yet been rejected in the collective consciousness of the rabble. Unicorns would be better, but they have a bias against them, also. Why that should be is hard to say, since no one can actually prove they don't exist. You could probably start something based on Big Foot, which does have a following of committed believers, but I think I'd go with something fresh. :-D
Holy shit the big foot would be perfect for the last god of my religion's trinity! I want my whores and trillions of dollars. That's the important thing. :)
NO you now abide to gods rules and walk in his ways! this does not mean you have to earn your way into heaven. You only are saved if you asked god to save you .
Quote from: "Jackdaw"NO you now abide to gods rules and walk in his ways! this does not mean you have to earn your way into heaven. You only are saved if you asked god to save you .
Prove it.
Without your personal religious opinion and the Bible.
I mean really PROVE what you say is true. If this kind of shit happens all the time, there should be ample evidence of its occurrence. So...prove to me god is real, heaven is real, and that what you espouse is the way to heaven.
I'll wait.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"HOW BOUT THE BIBLE! its a book of predicted prophecies that have come true! what other religion has that? And the bible only says that you are saved by gods grace not what you have to do to earn your way!Earning your way into heaven is what the catholic church teaches and the book of Mormon and other religions. Ephesians 2:8-10
Catholics and Mormons are Christians. It sounds to me like you think you are the only one who understands what it takes to be a Christian. I'll have the Pope contact you at his earliest convenience. Maybe you can help him find the true way.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"NO you now abide to gods rules and walk in his ways! this does not mean you have to earn your way into heaven. You only are saved if you asked god to save you .
So Hitler's in heaven and Ghandi's in hell? Makes total sense. :roll: Do you even read the shit you spew out before you plaster it on our forum?
If I had a nickel for every guy who came on here claiming he and he alone knew how the bible had to be interpreted, I'd have enough money to retire by now.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "Jackdaw"HOW BOUT THE BIBLE! its a book of predicted prophecies that have come true!
Stop lying. (//http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html)
Ok il do something more recent since you don't believe anything in the bible anyway. How about after the Holocause. Jews as it was prophesised would come from all their diffrent countrys scattered throughout the world to become a nation in Israel.Ezekiel 20:34- "I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered -- with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath." ,
Isaiah 11:11-12 - In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.",
Gosh, that seems like an unlikely thing, that a number of Jews would return to the place that they've been living in for thousands of years once every few millenia or so. Why, it's almost a miracle :roll:
Quote from: "Plu"Gosh, that seems like an unlikely thing, that a number of Jews would return to the place that they've been living in for thousands of years once every few millenia or so. Why, it's almost a miracle :roll:
And I guess god never said anything about an un-ending war with a bunch of Arabs who were already living there, either....
it's still a prophecy that came true.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"it's still a prophecy that came true.
I forsee that it will snow soon in my yard. BAM! I'm a fucking prophet.
I love funny troll pets! :popcorn:
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Ok il do something more recent since you don't believe anything in the bible anyway. How about after the Holocause. Jews as it was prophesised would come from all their diffrent countrys scattered throughout the world to become a nation in Israel.
Except that they didn't, because the Jews never left Palestine. Some went and lived abroad in Europe and later North America, yes, but the area now called Israel has
always had a large Jewish community. The Diaspora is as much a myth as the Bible that records it.
Even if this prophecy were true, this would be an argument for Judaism, not Christianity. So you have failed on two fronts.
A broken clock shows the correct time at least twice a day. Cherry pick the hits, and ignore the misses. Oh, I know, they aren't really misses. They just haven't happened yet. Or as in the case of Jesus, just invent a new myth to fulfill a previous prophecy. Everything is fine and Bible is perfect... except for when it's wrong, but don't bother me with those details. They don't count.
Has anyone here realized that Israel is composed of Pagan gods names? Is was a god, ra was an Egyptian god, and el was a pagan god.
Quote from: "Solitary"Has anyone here realized that Israel is composed of Pagan gods names? Is was a god, ra was an Egyptian god, and el was a pagan god.
The El part is correct. Doubt it about the rest, since it used to be pronounced more like Yisra'el.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Etymology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Etymology)
Quote from: "Jackdaw"it's still a prophecy that came true.
It's still a
meaningless prophecy that came true. If you make enough vague predictions and wait long enough, a number of them are bound to come true. All that says is you were vague enough and waited long enough, and people were desperate enough to really want to think you knew something.
Let us check how specific your "prophecy" really is, ok?
QuoteEzekiel 20:34- "I will bring you from the nations and gather you from the countries where you have been scattered
- It doesn't mention any names of countries.
- It doesn't mention how many there are, how many will come. It doesn't mention how many will not come.
- It doesn't mention
when they will come
- It doesn't mention
why they will come
Quote-- with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with outpoured wrath." ,
This whole part means nothing.
So basically, this prophecy can be summed up as: "at some point, a bunch of people will return to the place they all originall came from". And it took 2000 years for it to "come true". Not very impressive.
QuoteIn that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.
This one actually uses names of nations, and guess what? They existed at the time of the prophecy, but
none of these countries exist anymore. It's only in your desire to see a prophecy that you've translated the very specific details of names of nations into the general area where they happened and tried to make it still apply.
QuoteHe will raise a banner for the nations
I haven't seen any banners, let alone any raised by god.
Quoteand gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."
They aren't really gathered though. Only about 45% of all Jews in the world live in Israel. About the same amount live in the US. And they also weren't gathered from the four quarters of the earth (how does the earth even have four quarters? It's a sphere.), they were only gathered from the places where they were persecuted during WW II.
So this one tries to be more specific, but fails because none of the mentioned specific countries still exist. It still doesn't mention how many, when, or why. It says "gathered" but it's really less than half. And it says "four quarters of the earth" when really it's only from Europe.
You have to be really desperate in wanting it to be true to convince yourself that it is. Because if you look at it objectively, first off they aren't specific enough to warrant investigation, and second off if you amuse yourself by treating them as if they do warrant investigation, they still fail.
The regathering of the Jewish people began around 1920's and continues on to this day and that is what confuses people. They became a sovereign nation again after being scattered into the nations a 2nd time, May 1948. From 1948 to current date, the regathering continues, world wide. There are about 8 million people living in Israel and 6 million of them are Jews. There are about 7 million more Jews world wide living outside Israel. Of that around 5 million live in the USA - see this link Population Distribution http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html) and This Link from 2012 figures http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/newpop.html). The regathering is still occurring due to the nation of Israel again existing after impossible odds a second time.
Some speculate that the full regathering will be completed at the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth and some speculate they'll all be regathered before and other believe during the Tribulation period. Whichever is true, we don't know. There could also be another variable to the complete regathering of all the Jewish folks not fully understood that is occurring now in waves that eddy and flow as they flowed out of Russia during the 1980's see this Link.http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... jmove.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/sjmove.html)
Fact is, the bible is true and often so true that it does not line up with how we think God ought to do something He says...
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One more link on Cush -- http://whynotbelieve.wordpress.com/2012 (http://whynotbelieve.wordpress.com/2012) ... -lifetime/
Just as an FYI, the four quarters of earth don't mean all over the planet, it is a proverbial saying which more of means from around, near or far.
I always find it odd that gentiles promote the parts of the OT they think mean something while ignoring the vast amount that proves the exact opposite. Stupid gentiles.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"The regathering of the Jewish people began around 1920's and continues on to this day and that is what confuses people. They became a sovereign nation again after being scattered into the nations a 2nd time, May 1948. From 1948 to current date, the regathering continues, world wide. There are about 8 million people living in Israel and 6 million of them are Jews. There are about 7 million more Jews world wide living outside Israel. Of that around 5 million live in the USA - see this link Population Distribution http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html) and This Link from 2012 figures http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/newpop.html). The regathering is still occurring due to the nation of Israel again existing after impossible odds a second time.
You're dumb. (//http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~samuel/presence.html)Quote from: "Jackdaw"Some speculate that the full regathering will be completed at the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth and some speculate they'll all be regathered before and other believe during the Tribulation period. Whichever is true, we don't know. There could also be another variable to the complete regathering of all the Jewish folks not fully understood that is occurring now in waves that eddy and flow as they flowed out of Russia during the 1980's see this Link.http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... jmove.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/sjmove.html)
Why would Christians be concerned about where the Jews live? If Christianity is right, then Judaism is wrong, end of story. If the Jews actually
do matter that much, then that means that
they're correct, and
you're the dumbass who's spending an eternity in that Hell you love threatening atheists with so much.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"Fact is, the bible is true and often so true that it does not line up with how we think God ought to do something He says...
[youtube:kw9vl1vx]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY[/youtube:kw9vl1vx]
May be we would be concerned because you know the bible is sorta important to us christians, and it is in the bible. :rollin:
Quote from: "Jackdaw"May be we would be concerned because you know the bible is sorta important to us christians, and it is in the bible. :rollin:
And you never once questioned the fact that this book, half of which was entirely written for and by the Jews, explicitly mentions Jews (not Christians) as being instrumental in your end-of-the-world scenario? Did that not maybe, possibly strike you as a bit odd?
The mental gymnastics you must perform on a daily basis to maintain your worldview is truly astounding.
Quote from: "Jackdaw"May be we would be concerned because you know the bible is sorta important to us christians, and it is in the bible. :rollin:
really, and the part where god tells the jews that he will destroy the gentiles once and for all....that doesn't even give pause to your "special" kind of thinking eh?
Quote from: "Jackdaw"May be we would be concerned because you know the bible is sorta important to us christians, and it is in the bible. :rollin:
You should read the bible cover to cover. That's the path to atheism. Remember no cherry picking. :wink:
Quote from: "Jackdaw"The regathering of the Jewish people began around 1920's and continues on to this day and that is what confuses people. They became a sovereign nation again after being scattered into the nations a 2nd time, May 1948. From 1948 to current date, the regathering continues, world wide. There are about 8 million people living in Israel and 6 million of them are Jews. There are about 7 million more Jews world wide living outside Israel. Of that around 5 million live in the USA - see this link Population Distribution http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html) and This Link from 2012 figures http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewpop.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/newpop.html). The regathering is still occurring due to the nation of Israel again existing after impossible odds a second time.
Some speculate that the full regathering will be completed at the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth and some speculate they'll all be regathered before and other believe during the Tribulation period. Whichever is true, we don't know. There could also be another variable to the complete regathering of all the Jewish folks not fully understood that is occurring now in waves that eddy and flow as they flowed out of Russia during the 1980's see this Link.http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... jmove.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Human_Rights/sjmove.html)
Fact is, the bible is true and often so true that it does not line up with how we think God ought to do something He says...
-
-
-
One more link on Cush -- http://whynotbelieve.wordpress.com/2012 (http://whynotbelieve.wordpress.com/2012) ... -lifetime/
Just as an FYI, the four quarters of earth don't mean all over the planet, it is a proverbial saying which more of means from around, near or far.
So then the prophecy hasn't come true yet because it's still going on? You just went from claiming the prophecy is fullfilled to saying that it hasn't been fullfilled, just starting to look like it might be some day in the future without blinking an eye.
And of course not a word of mention about the long list of reasons why the prophecy is too vague to matter. Only a simple comment about how "the four quarters of the earth" is proverbial. You know why it's proverbial? Because after it was written down, people figured out the earth was round, so it only made sense as a proverbial statement after that. You'd think a prophet who could predict the future might also be able to understand simple things the Greeks had figured out hundreds of years ago, but no :rolleyes:
Quote from: "Plu"So [Jackdaw],then the prophecy hasn't come true yet because it's still going on? You just went from claiming the prophecy is fullfilled to saying that it hasn't been fullfilled, just starting to look like it might be some day in the future without blinking an eye.:rolleyes:
Holy crap, he actually stole that Christian apologetic from me. I offered the "just hasn't happened yet" apology in a sarcastic parody of Christian reasoning a few posts back. In my attempt to parody irrational thought processes, he must have found a new one to use in his arguments.
This must be how creationists formulate their arguments. Instead of doing fieldwork, they google "logical fallacy" and study the examples. When they find fallacies they can use to advance their arguments, they adopt them and fill their brochures with arguments based on the ones they like.
This explains why we keep reading the same stuff over and over every time we are visited by a well meaning fundamentalist. :-D
Quote from: "rick"So this might be a weird question on an atheist forum since i don't consider myself an atheist, but i would appreciate some feedback as i always get biased answers from other christians. It is a long story but i think it is important to describe how i got to my current mindset.
If I understood well, you believe that Jesus is God and that the trinity is Father, Son and Holy spirit, where the 3 are different but are one?
Matthew 24:34; "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." The previous verses, Matthew 24:1-33, describe end-times events in relation to Israel. As a result, some interpreters thought that the end times would begin when Israel was "reconstituted" as a nation (which happened in 1948). However, as more and more time passed from 1948, the time span of a "generation" began to lengthen and lengthen. It has now been nearly 60 years – which is far beyond any standard definition of a generation.
^This is an interpretation of the Bible. Jesus was also supposed to come soon after his crucifixion:
Revelation 22:12; "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is."
Any way you slice it, 2,000 years is not quickly. Interpretation. we had that conversation already.
Quote from: "Ksa"Quote from: "rick"So this might be a weird question on an atheist forum since i don't consider myself an atheist, but i would appreciate some feedback as i always get biased answers from other christians. It is a long story but i think it is important to describe how i got to my current mindset.
If I understood well, you believe that Jesus is God and that the trinity is Father, Son and Holy spirit, where the 3 are different but are one?
The trinity, from wikipedia:
QuoteScripture does not contain expressly a formulated doctrine of the Trinity. Rather, according to the Christian theology, it "bears witness to" the activity of a God who can only be understood in trinitarian terms.[9] The doctrine did not take its definitive shape until late in the fourth century.[10] During the intervening period, various tentative solutions, some more and some less satisfactory were proposed.[11] Trinitarianism contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects).
In other words, about 400 ACE the early Christians had a god that was presenting 3 different aspects or states of being. The result was trinitarianism. This is problematic to say the least; Christianity/Judaism is a monotheistic religion, but you can't make god do all the different things he does as one god, you have to split him in 3 parts.
A god in the form of man can't be the divine and untouchable god of all, he has to manifest himself as human to redeem mankind from the sin he invented in the first place. And he cannot enter into a living person in his celestial form but must manifest himself as a spirit. And thus you wind up with a triune god. See? Makes perfect sense. #-o