Some Muslims claim that the following is evidence of anachronistically advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an (i.e. that it must have been sent by God because Arabs at the time did not know about abiogenesis). Please debunk this belief, since I'm failing to do so in an effective manner, but feel that I'm socially conditioned to favour the Qur'an.
The Qur'an says:
And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth). [23:12]
Meanwhile, we have Jack Szostak saying Montmorillonite (clay crystals) located in springs could very well have served as "scaffolding" for the synthesis of the first RNA molecules.*
NOTE 1: I realise that the Qur'an quote extrapolates to the creation of man without talking about the previous evolutionary stages. Advocates say that it refers to man as a long-term end to the process.
NOTE 2: Please disregard the "Adam" put in brackets. I think that's inserted by the translator to make the verse consistent with the other verses and common Islamic beliefs, but isn't a part of the verse in Arabic.
FINAL NOTE: I'm a recently de-converted Muslim. I by no means think that this alone is enough to merit belief in a God. I just want it conclusively debunked so that my family stops bringing it up as a suggestion that I'm just biased against Islam (i.e. that my de-conversion was illogical).
*He says so in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqPGOhXoprU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqPGOhXoprU) [41:20-41:36]
^Well, that looks pretty incoherent. Please let me know if anything needs clarification!^
Just to point out the glaringly obvious
"And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth)"
is in no way the same as
"Wet Montmorillonite [maybe] played a part in the emergence of the first RNA molecules. Then a billion years of evolution by means of natural selection. Then a certain group of primates became humans."
I always thought the Qur'an taught man was made from a blood clot, although apparently (//http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/man.html) it also says man was created from water, clay/mud, dust, fluid and nothing. But, of course, we are expected to ignore all but "clay" and then see how--obviously--that was an explanation of the emergence of RNA, not a retelling of genesis 2 where god creates Adam out of "dust of the ground" :rolleyes:
It's applying knowledge after the fact combined with abusing statistics.
"Advanced knowledge" only counts if you can use the book to discover something new, otherwise it's just either a lucky guess or someone reinterpreting the words and stretching them to fit with what we know (which is what muslims and christians do all the time)
If I make a book with a thousand random claims and after a thousand years, a dozen of those turn out to be kinda sorta true if you squint enough, the book does not contain advanced knowledge. It's just random guesswork from some long dead guy who got lucky a few times.
Quote from: "Poison Tree"Just to point out the glaringly obvious
"And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth)"
is in no way the same as
"Wet Montmorillonite [maybe] played a part in the emergence of the first RNA molecules. Then a billion years of evolution by means of natural selection. Then a certain group of primates became humans."
I always thought the Qur'an taught man was made from a blood clot, although apparently (//http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/man.html) it also says man was created from water, clay/mud, dust, fluid and nothing. But, of course, we are expected to ignore all but "clay" and then see how--obviously--that was an explanation of the emergence of RNA, not a retelling of genesis 2 where god creates Adam out of "dust of the ground" :rolleyes:
Apparently water, clay, mud (in which clay is found) and dust are all with reference to evolution; fluid and the "clot" to embryology; and nothing to the genesis of all of nature.
This, of course, raises more absurdities and contradictions:
-dust and clay-abundant mud are two different things, so it's got to really be one or the other (i.e. the Qur'an is trying to have it both ways, but it's mutually exclusive).
-Embryos are not "blood clots." (In this case the Islamic apologist would say that "blood clot" is just a translational approximation, though.)
-There is no evidence to suggest that nature originated out of nothing.
In short, the Qur'an just seems to take stabs in the dark which Muslims then interpret (read: manipulate) tenuously to make sense.
Damn, I really need to get past the social conditioning. I have no compelling evidence and yet I somehow feel like I'm "wrong" to disbelieve.
Quote from: "Plu"It's applying knowledge after the fact combined with abusing statistics.
"Advanced knowledge" only counts if you can use the book to discover something new, otherwise it's just either a lucky guess or someone reinterpreting the words and stretching them to fit with what we know (which is what muslims and christians do all the time)
If I make a book with a thousand random claims and after a thousand years, a dozen of those turn out to be kinda sorta true if you squint enough, the book does not contain advanced knowledge. It's just random guesswork from some long dead guy who got lucky a few times.
Thank you so much! This is a really good counter-argument which I will totally use next time it comes up. :-D
Quote from: "SubcontinentalKiwi"Quote from: "Plu"It's applying knowledge after the fact combined with abusing statistics.
"Advanced knowledge" only counts if you can use the book to discover something new, otherwise it's just either a lucky guess or someone reinterpreting the words and stretching them to fit with what we know (which is what muslims and christians do all the time)
If I make a book with a thousand random claims and after a thousand years, a dozen of those turn out to be kinda sorta true if you squint enough, the book does not contain advanced knowledge. It's just random guesswork from some long dead guy who got lucky a few times.
Thank you so much! This is a really good counter-argument which I will totally use next time it comes up. :-D
These were the first thoughts I had when I read your first post. I think they are the obvious answers. I've pondered Christian apologetics so often that do exactly the same bending of meaning by inventing interpretations to make some desired outcome fit what they need.
It's done so often in politics that we actually have an expression for it. It's called political spin. The politician claims to be clarifying what he said, when it's obvious to everyone that he's just bending his meaning, or claiming something is what it isn't.
Nationalism and related types of special interests use the technique so often that we've invented the phrase "re-writing history", and we have the expression, "Those who win the war get to re-write history."
All these frequently used types of deception used throughout the world of mankind can be categorized under other terms we've had to invent because the use of the deceptions are so frequent. We've invented words like "bullshit" and "flim flam" to identify them. I'm sure you have the same types of words in your native language.
And throughout the world of spiritual nonsense, we constantly encounter this notion that spiritual meanings are somehow masked in such mysterious language that for some odd reason, always require twisting out an interpretation to mean what the priests and the believers want to hear.
Remember this basic trick for the predictive or explanatory power of books and stories:
If you have only the book and you cannot even begin to explain the concept without the real science behind it and if you can explain the whole concept just fine using just the science and not the book, the book adds literally nothing to the discussion.
If you test any concept or story in a holy book against this basic rule, 99% will fail. The remaining 1% will be trivially simple.
Clay is high in silicon. People are not.
Quote from: "SubcontinentalKiwi"Some Muslims claim that the following is evidence of anachronistically advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an (i.e. that it must have been sent by God because Arabs at the time did not know about abiogenesis). Please debunk this belief, since I'm failing to do so in an effective manner, but feel that I'm socially conditioned to favour the Qur'an.
The Qur'an says:
And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth). [23:12]
Meanwhile, we have Jack Szostak saying Montmorillonite (clay crystals) located in springs could very well have served as "scaffolding" for the synthesis of the first RNA molecules.*
NOTE 1: I realise that the Qur'an quote extrapolates to the creation of man without talking about the previous evolutionary stages. Advocates say that it refers to man as a long-term end to the process.
NOTE 2: Please disregard the "Adam" put in brackets. I think that's inserted by the translator to make the verse consistent with the other verses and common Islamic beliefs, but isn't a part of the verse in Arabic.
FINAL NOTE: I'm a recently de-converted Muslim. I by no means think that this alone is enough to merit belief in a God. I just want it conclusively debunked so that my family stops bringing it up as a suggestion that I'm just biased against Islam (i.e. that my de-conversion was illogical).
*He says so in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqPGOhXoprU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqPGOhXoprU) [41:20-41:36]
^Well, that looks pretty incoherent. Please let me know if anything needs clarification!^
Mohammed was a plagiarist, he stole that right out of the bible, Genesis 3:19 - For dust you are and to dust you will return.
QuoteSahih International
Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed -
23:7
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23:7
Sahih International
But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors -
23:8
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23:8
Sahih International
And they who are to their trusts and their promises attentive
23:9
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23:9
Sahih International
And they who carefully maintain their prayers -
23:10
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23:10
Sahih International
Those are the inheritors
23:11
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23:11
Sahih International
Who will inherit al-Firdaus. They will abide therein eternally.
23:12
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23:12
Sahih International
And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay.
Am I the only one who thinks that this is poorly written (to the point of incoherence) shit?
It's no more accurate than Zeus happening to make the 5th race of humans out of iron. Maybe the Greeks knew we had iron in our system, and maybe they didn't, but I don't see people preaching the Gospel of Zeus to high heaven just because of this.
Any book written ambiguously can be interpreted any way you want. And rationalizing after the fact doesn't prove anything. Why would an all powerful God need clay or a rib bone to make a man or woman? :roll: :rollin: The Boy Scout leaders that pushed over the boulder and said it was to protect the boys, when they were in fact destroying a natural monument, is an example of this. So is a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar saying he was looking for the cat. Solitary
Quote from: "Plu"If I make a book with a thousand random claims and after a thousand years, a dozen of those turn out to be kinda sorta true if you squint enough, the book does not contain advanced knowledge. It's just random guesswork from some long dead guy who got lucky a few times.
Just google "star trek predicted the feuture"--they had flip-phones, I pads, google glasses, ect decades in advance.
I WISH more Muslims would try to reconcile their religion with abiogenesis and evolution.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"I WISH more Muslims would try to reconcile their religion with abiogenesis and evolution.
Unfortunately, most religious people believe *despite* knowledge, not because of it.
Those who do try to reconcile Islam with abiogenesis and evolution will eventually have to concede that they're just seeing what they want to see (much like I did).
I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly. If more Muslims opened their eyes to undeniable scientific truths, they'd be much more likely to realise that the teachings of Islam aren't really compatible with modern knowledge.
I bet you can find within the writings of Nostradamus that he also foretold of the science of the "scaffolding" for the synthesis of the first RNA molecules.
Quote from: "SubcontinentalKiwi"Some Muslims claim that the following is evidence of anachronistically advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an (i.e. that it must have been sent by God because Arabs at the time did not know about abiogenesis). Please debunk this belief, since I'm failing to do so in an effective manner, but feel that I'm socially conditioned to favour the Qur'an.
The Qur'an says:
And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth). [23:12]
Meanwhile, we have Jack Szostak saying Montmorillonite (clay crystals) located in springs could very well have served as "scaffolding" for the synthesis of the first RNA molecules.*
Actually I have the same problem with a friend, but he also cited another verse: "And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised" (32:8)
But he said that the important part is the word used for "extract" or "quintessence" (the same in arabic). He said that it means somethink like "extracted out from it" or "essence, the best part of it". But how could they know that it is just a bit of the sperm that is fertilizing the ovum, you know? Or the same with the clay-part... he said, that this means it is not the clay itself, but something extracted from it.
I just wonder why Mohammed didn't just write clay or semen without the "extract"... because this is really kind of true, don't you think? I hope you can help me, because I do not really know how to say something against this right now!
I really hate this stuff.
It's still just poetry speak. He could've meant a million things, that's why it's both so hard to conclusively show that it's bull and entirely useless as a guide book; it will say whatever you want it to say because the book is very specific about never mentioning things by name.
The fact that there is a single word that would accurately describe the situation but they use a string of words that could mean a lot of things means they had no idea what it was, only that it was kinda sorta related to something they did understand.
Quote from: "Plu"It's still just poetry speak.
I like that term. Holy books are heavy on it. One of the hallmarks of poetry is the use of implied meanings, sometimes thought provoking, as in, "What is the author saying?" The very reason, you have to ask that question is because the poet uses unique combinations of words to get a point across. In short, he's not being specific.
Literature lovers and high school English teachers love this sort of thing. But such non specific language creates a clarity problem. Science texts are not written in poetic form, and for good reason. The lack of clarity in poetry is challenging and even fun, but hardly the best way to explain things with precession. That's why such language is so much a part of holy books.
The meanings of passages can be interpreted with a wide latitude that allows for wiggle room, that can appeal to individual biases. In other words, you can read anything you want into such texts. Science is not geared to giving you want you want. It supports things with facts. It's much harder to assume what you want to be true with science.
I believe that the poetry of holy books is there to encourage muddled thinking; It sounds so lovely, it must be true. That sort of thing.
That is a plausible explanation. I also noticed that there are several other verses where the Quran says that humans are created out of sperm or clay without the "extract", so I think this is rubbish...
Ok just one more, everything else he gave me was easy to debunk ;)
It is about this verse (6:67)
"For every message is a limit of time, and soon shall ye know it."
or in a different tranlsation
"For every announcement there is a term, and ye will come to know."
The point is that already the first commentators of the Quran didn't really know what to make of this verse. Even in context it's very strange:
"Say: "He hath power to send calamities on you, from above and below, or to cover you with confusion in party strife, giving you a taste of mutual vengeance - each from the other. See how We explain the signs by various (symbols); that they may understand. But thy people reject this, though it is the truth. Say: "Not mine is the responsibility for arranging your affairs; For every message is a limit of time, and soon shall ye know it." (6:65-67)
Nowadays they say that this refers clearly to the scientific miracles in the quran that are discovered in our time, though the quran is 1400 years old.
I think this sounds rather strange and it confuses me that the people about that time already didn't know how to interpret this sentence. What do you think about this?
(If somebody is interested, this is what the early commentators thought:
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa ... nguageId=2 (http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=6&tAyahNo=67&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2)
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa ... nguageId=2 (http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=6&tAyahNo=67&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2))
What's scientific about that? It's just ancient prophets threatening each other with non-existant beings handing out punishment. It's referring to "Everybody dies someday and all of the bad things we've talked about convieniently happen after that point where you won't be able to tell anyone we're full of shit. So be scared!"
And that's all it talks about.
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"Clay is high in silicon. People are not.
=D>
Pappy, I used to work with this old woman who retired at about the age I am now, 65. She had been a rodeo queen in her youth. She was about 5'4" and wrinkled and saggy as all get out. But she'd had a boob job when a young girl. It was weird, this wrinkled, saggy grandma type walking around with these over sized firm breasts just sticking out there. I'm pretty sure she was "high in silicon." :-D
Quote from: "SubcontinentalKiwi"Some Muslims claim that the following is evidence of anachronistically advanced scientific knowledge in the Qur'an
I'll bet they also believe that shoving your fingers up your nose and blowing real hard will increase your intelligence.
"Man is created out of an extract of clay (water and earth)," is not the same as "Montmorillonite could have served as 'scaffolding' for the synthesis of the first RNA molecules."
For starters, the montmorillonite hypothesis is not definite. It is a possible means by which RNA may have come about. What will muslims say if that theorem is disproven? Abandon the koran? Fuck, no. They don't care about that theory or any other "science" they find in their holy book.
Until they find a passage in their book that specifically states the scientific theory clearly, there is no reason to assume that "created out of clay" in any way refers to the idea that clay crystals may have help the first RNA molecules form.
Even if you accept that, the passage is incorrect since if the first RNA molecules formed this way, they it wouldn't be just man but all life that formed from this. In which case, the author of the koran spoke imperfectly and incorrectly. So which is it? Is the koran passage not about montmorillonite or is the koran imperfect. They can't have both.,
Attempting to justify one's belief by appealing to the discoveries of science is tantamount to admitting that one's faith is not enough to believe.
Let it be known that I am beyond satisfied with the replies here. If my opinion is worth anything: consider this debunked many times over.