I can't be the only one annoyed by this. As a liberal myself, I'm of at a loss as to why liberals(particularly liberal theists) are so quick to jump to the defense of islam. Especially considering islam is the farthest thing from "liberal"(anti-women, anti-gay, anti-free speech, anti-tolerance for non-muslims)
We love to bash on Christianity, as we should be doing, don't get me wrong. Yet, no one can criticize islam without being labeled an "islamaphobic" bigot :roll: Why??
I was unaware that liberals did so, but then, I'm unaware of lots of things.
For the reasons you gave, and others, I think Islam is a pox on humanity. They certainly wouldn't get a pass from me on anything.
Frank
Claiming that being Muslim is being a terrorist is Islamaphobia. Claiming that Islam, AS IT'S PRACTICED, is anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-free speech, is just the truth. (Religions, all religions, tend to be anti-free speech and anti-anything-but-them. A religion that's tolerant of other religions, without being the only force around, is quickly extinct.)
Looking at the question from the outside, it seems to be a case of follow the leader. Liberals, IMHO, seem to be more willing to take up the talk of their leaders, then do conservatives and independents. I also think they are more likely to get their information from liberal sources which also preach tolerance, except for those labeled intolerant or Republicans. I think they might be after the Islamic vote too.
Being an independent and having tried to get my information from various sources, Islam scares the hell out of me. For the reasons Jorjor listed and more. And I don't care if you label me as being an Islamaphobic. Because that is exactly what I am. I'm scared of lions, tigers, and bears too. All of them are capable and even likely to kill me if given the chance to do so. The fact that some are tame and wouldn't hurt anyone, doesn't mean I shouldn't have a healthy fear of them. Just like Roy Siegfried found out the hard way.
Quote from: "Colanth"Claiming that being Muslim is being a terrorist is Islamaphobia. Claiming that Islam, AS IT'S PRACTICED, is anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-free speech, is just the truth. (Religions, all religions, tend to be anti-free speech and anti-anything-but-them. A religion that's tolerant of other religions, without being the only force around, is quickly extinct.)
Or in other words: There's plenty to criticize without making shit up.
I consider myself liberal and I don't love Islam. They have a terrible record in terms of human rights, even worse than Christians.
Nothing wrong with criticizing Islam, just as there is nothing wrong with criticizing Christianity.
It's when you start implying that 1% of the population is, any day now, going to completely over-power and dominate our culture or are afraid that any Muslim is a potential threat just waiting to blow up is where it starts to become an irrational fear, I.E. Islamophobia.
QuoteBeing an independent and having tried to get my information from various sources, Islam scares the hell out of me. For the reasons Jorjor listed and more. And I don't care if you label me as being an Islamaphobic. Because that is exactly what I am. I'm scared of lions, tigers, and bears too. All of them are capable and even likely to kill me if given the chance to do so.
And all blacks are potential gangsters who can "pop a cap in yo ass!". And all white people are potential corporate assholes who want to steal your money and invest it in stupid stocks. And all Asians want to steal your dog and eat it.
EVERYONE is capable of killing you, and it is FAR more likely that a white person will assault you than a brown. So if you are an Islamophobe I hope you are an Ultra-Cacausianphobe, because those white people are the biggest threat to your health unless you decide to move to Pakistan.
Some words you never hear:
Every other religion is better than mine.
There's a reason for that.
Oh good! We found our liberal. =D>
Just for the record, blacks at least the none Muslim ones, don't have books and religious leaders telling them to "pop a cap in my ass." And I'm the only white in my house, which makes me feel safe at home.
As far as the corporate thieves, they all ready stole most of my hard earnings, so they don't scare me much anymore. Don't have a dog anymore, so I'm not concerned with anyone eating it.
Muslims have said in their holy book and on TV that they want the entire world to be under Sharia law. And there are 1.62 billion Islamic adherents, making up over 23% of the world population. While the radicals only make up about 10% of Muslims in the world, there are more than 10 Muslims living near me. While most of them are just rude, I figure at least one of them wants me dead. Not because of anything I did to him, but simply because I am not a Muslim.
I am not advocating killing Muslims, like some are advocating killing me, but I am sure not going to turn my back to one.
It's probably a good idea to not turn your back on any religion..
Obama seems to support the rebels in Syria (The Muslim Brotherhood) {Although i don't consider him to be a liberal}
Overthrowing with another evil force sounds bad, and is just a bad idea in my opinion. No to Islam in my opinion.
I rest my case.
Edit:
//http://www.politico.com/politico44/2013/08/white-house-peeved-at-pentagon-leaks-171520.html
AllPurposeAtheist wrote:
QuoteIt's probably a good idea to not turn your back on any religion..
That's true. Especially if your a young boy.
QuoteOh good! We found our liberal.
Nope, I just don't think labeling that everyone of a different culture than me is by default most likely a murderer and I must live in fear of them a valid opinion.
And it is irrelevant as to why they commit the crimes, the fact of the matter is you are far more likely to be killed by a Hispanic, white or black than you are a Muslim. Therefor, if you are being honest, then you have just as much, if not more, to fear those groups than Muslims.
Again, I have nothing against criticizing Islam. I have nothing against criticizing Muslims who push their faith or are violent about it. But assuming that, because (going by your number) 1/10th of a population are terrorists (99.99% of them in places like Pakistan, Iraq, Lebanon, etc)... that therefor all Muslims should be treated as potential threats?
Sorry, that isn't being liberal to realize how stupid that is, that is understanding mathematics and not assuming that the "in-style" group to distrust is out to get me.
(//If%20you%20think%20Muslims%20are%20a%20race%20then%20you%20are%20not%20very%20smart.)
Agreed, since there is no such thing as a race.
I resent when people are singled out as a racist by ignoramuses who apparently don't even understand what that word really means.
If you think Muslims are a race then you are not very smart.
Shiranu wrote:
QuoteNope, I just don't think labeling that everyone of a different culture than me is by default most likely a murderer and I must live in fear of them a valid opinion.
That ring's of a good honest answer. We can't ask for more. Thank you, Shiranu =D>
But, I don't think the Muslims see it the same way. I used to think the Muslims were no big deal, they had their religion and the crusades were long over. Then I started studying Islam and learned what many Muslims believe. They think a warlord was the last greatest prophet of God, who is Allah, who is manifested in a rock in Mecca. The warlord said many nice things, then changed his mind. It is the goal of Islam to convert, subjugate or kill all infidels.
How can I tolerate a belief which wants me dead? There are as bad or worse then the Republitards.
Critisizing Islam while critisizing Islamobopbia is only a contradiction to those whos narrow world view is shaped by Faux News.
Quote from: "Shiranu"And all blacks are potential gangsters who can "pop a cap in yo ass!". And all white people are potential corporate assholes who want to steal your money and invest it in stupid stocks. And all Asians want to steal your dog and eat it.
EVERYONE is capable of killing you, and it is FAR more likely that a white person will assault you than a brown. So if you are an Islamophobe I hope you are an Ultra-Cacausianphobe, because those white people are the biggest threat to your health unless you decide to move to Pakistan.
I may be wrong but judging from your posts it seems like you think Muslim is some kind of race....? :-k correct me if I'm wrong.
It's the ideology/teachings of the islam itself that I consider potentially dangerous. Race(at least to me) does not play into it.
Quote from: "Jorjor"I may be wrong but judging from your posts it seems like you think Muslim is some kind of race....? :-k correct me if I'm wrong.
I can't speak for Shiranu's views, but it is true that Muslims are being racialized and have been for some time now. (Much like how the Jews were racialized in the 1930's.) It's not surprising that anyone would make that mistake, given that it's happened before.
I'm a liberal, and I don't love Islam or any religion. I have yet to encounter a liberal who loves Islam. Islam is at its very heart a conservative philosophy.
Mainly what I see among liberals is an abhorrence for bigotry. When we appear to "defend" Islam, what may be happening is we're condemning Islamophobia: the knee-jerk, fallacious sentiment that "some Muslims are terrorists, therefore all Muslims are terrorists." As a result of this sentiment, we get profiling, attacks against Muslims, and other evils, which, if we replace "Muslim" with "Jew", would look just like the anti-Semitism of the early 20th century.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "Colanth"Claiming that being Muslim is being a terrorist is Islamaphobia. Claiming that Islam, AS IT'S PRACTICED, is anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-free speech, is just the truth. (Religions, all religions, tend to be anti-free speech and anti-anything-but-them. A religion that's tolerant of other religions, without being the only force around, is quickly extinct.)
Or in other words: There's plenty to criticize without making shit up.
^this
Quote from: "Atheon"I'm a liberal, and I don't love Islam or any religion. I have yet to encounter a liberal who loves Islam. Islam is at its very heart a conservative philosophy.
Mainly what I see among liberals is an abhorrence for bigotry. When we appear to "defend" Islam, what may be happening is we're condemning Islamophobia: the knee-jerk, fallacious sentiment that "some Muslims are terrorists, therefore all Muslims are terrorists." As a result of this sentiment, we get profiling, attacks against Muslims, and other evils, which, if we replace "Muslim" with "Jew", would look just like the anti-Semitism of the early 20th century.
Bingo! You win one free internet.
(//http://i.imgur.com/s3AoP.gif)
Shir had some good points as well. I'm fine with criticizing the hell out of Islam, it deserves every bit of it, but fearing the >1 billion population as if they are all like that jihadist subset you hear about on the news is moronic and contemptible.
If anything, I tend to be much harsher towards Islam. I consider it a disease.
Quote from: "Jorjor"I may be wrong but judging from your posts it seems like you think Muslim is some kind of race....? :-k correct me if I'm wrong.
It's the ideology/teachings of the islam itself that I consider potentially dangerous. Race(at least to me) does not play into it.
While in practice Islam is mostly a middle eastern thing, the ideology itself is dangerous and would be regardless of race.
LikelyToBreak is showing an excellent example of why liberals tend to "defend" Islam, even though they never do.
It may have something to do with Islam being a minority in your country. In my country, the so called liberals or seculars tend to bash Islam more than any other religions. I remember joining a Facebook group called Aliansi Sekular Indonesia ( Indonesian Secular Alliance) which claims to support diversity and tolerance toward anyone. However, most of the post there often highlight the dirt and atrocities that Islam does here. How it's sexist, anti gay, anti free speech, discriminative toward non Muslims, etc.
One day, there's an atheist who brought up the brutality of God of the Bible. He's immediately accused as Muslim trying to slander and provoke the poor, fragile Christians. Almost everyone jumped into the defense of Christianity, how it's a more passionate, loving religion than Islam, how the scripture was not relevant anymore, blah2. In the end, that atheist was banned, and his post was deleted. I don't know about you but I felt, disgusted, furious even when I didn't participate at all in that thread. So, needless to say, I left that group. We should not be in favor toward any particular religion just because it's a minority. Being a minority doesn't mean that you're immune to criticism. That's my opinion on the matter.
While I agree that being a minority doesn't mean you're immune to criticism, the unfortunate truth is that being a minority does make you vulnerable to being fucked over by a religious majority.
The problem I see comes from the fact that Muslims (followers of a poisonous doctrine, but mostly harmless people) are being fucked over in their lives by Christians (followers of a poisonous doctrine, but mostly harmless people). At least in the US. As the post above shows; it's the exact other way around in countries where Muslims are a majority religion.
But apparently pointing out that the majority is just as stupid as the minority, but the minority are catching a load of flak for mostly no valid reason by the majority who do the same stupid shit is "defending Islam". Instead of what it actually is; defending the right of a minority of stupid people to believe stupid things without being unfairly ostracized by a majority of stupid people who believe mostly the exact same stupid things.
So yeah. I'm totally "defending Islam" here, right guys?
It's basically the Right lying again. Liberals are by nature tolerant of minorities, and the GOP and conservatives have poisoned the well by saying that liberals tolerate Islam, and by extention, tolerate terrorists.
If you fall for that lie, you are a fucking moron.
QuoteAgreed, since there is no such thing as a race.
Unless you're playing MarioKart.
I Loooooove Islam, because it scares the crap out of the Christians.
Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"I resent when people are singled out as a racist by ignoramuses who apparently don't even understand what that word really means.
If you think Muslims are a race then you are not very smart.
You're absolutely right. People who think a religious minority that comprises less than 2% of their nation's population is about to kill everyone and overthrow the country are paranoid bigots, not racists.
Quote from: "EntirelyOfThisWorld"Critisizing Islam while critisizing Islamobopbia is only a contradiction to those whos narrow world view is shaped by Faux News.
Some people have trouble distinguishing defense of peaceful Muslims from bigotry or inaccurate accusations from criticism of the religion (s) itself. Of which there are hundreds of versions. Islam is scarcely less fractured than Christianity. The majority of Islamist terrorists are Salafi Sunnis, but we never make an effort to focus on countering Salafism. Heck, we supported it in Afghanistan in the eighties, even paying for Salafist schoolbooks.
We can't effectively oppose something if we refuse to understand and refuse to make distinctions between more and less dangerous factions. Our approach should be to encourage moderation and discourage extremism, but most of us don't even know who is who. We're not getting rid of over a billion people who follow a religion that scares us in our lifetimes. We're not going to deconvert them. We CAN practice intelligent mitigation.
Nothing to say, it's all been said already at this topic. =D> :popcorn: Solitary
Plu wrote in part:
QuoteInstead of what it actually is; defending the right of a minority of stupid people to believe stupid things without being unfairly ostracized by a majority of stupid people who believe mostly the exact same stupid things.
I would defend a Muslim's rights, knowing he/she would not do the same for me, but I'll be damned, if I am not going to expose their religion for the travesty it is.
And that goes for the Neo-Nazi's and New Black Panthers as well. Would the liberals do like-wise is my question?
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"I would defend a Muslim's rights, knowing he/she would not do the same for me, but I'll be damned, if I am not going to expose their religion for the travesty it is.
And that goes for the Neo-Nazi's and New Black Panthers as well. Would the liberals do like-wise is my question?
That question has already been answered.
QuoteWould the liberals do like-wise is my question?
Yeah, they would.
Yes I know, the majority of Muslims are of the moderate/peaceful variety. But to label Islam itself as a "religion of peace" is also horribly innaccurate. The people we consider "extremists" are simply following what the their book says.
Also I have read a few articles that try to make it clear to readers that what they are not criticizing people, but rather the ideology that leads people to do things no sane person would do. Yet you'll scroll through the comments and some people will still be crying "Islamaphobe!"
It seems like the conservatives got the right idea when it comes to Islam, when do Liberals address the problems with Islam?
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCaqRVy9zEk
Quote from: "Rushrange"It seems like the conservatives got the right idea when it comes to Islam, when do Liberals address the problems with Islam?
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCaqRVy9zEk
Summary: My christian god is better than their muslim god.
I don't think that many atheists will go out of their way to defend Islam. The conservatives should apply their rhetoric to their own religion, which is a mishmash of contradictions, falsehoods and sheer lunatic fantasies.
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "Rushrange"It seems like the conservatives got the right idea when it comes to Islam, when do Liberals address the problems with Islam?
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCaqRVy9zEk
Summary: My christian god is better than their muslim god.
I don't think that many atheists will go out of their way to defend Islam. The conservatives should apply their rhetoric to their own religion, which is a mishmash of contradictions, falsehoods and sheer lunatic fantasies.
Well, have fun letting islamic religion take over USA then... BOOM!.
Edit: The problem is people are so neutral about it, that no one will say anything against it. Maybe fear etc... I mean, i have not heard much Liberals complaining about islam, more as to turning their backs too it. Not agreeing to Conservatives on everything, but this one, yes.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "Rushrange"It seems like the conservatives got the right idea when it comes to Islam, when do Liberals address the problems with Islam?
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCaqRVy9zEk
Summary: My christian god is better than their muslim god.
I don't think that many atheists will go out of their way to defend Islam. The conservatives should apply their rhetoric to their own religion, which is a mishmash of contradictions, falsehoods and sheer lunatic fantasies.
Well, have fun letting islamic religion take over USA then... BOOM!.
Edit: The problem is people are so neutral about it, that no one will say anything against it. Maybe fear etc... I mean, i have not heard much Liberals complaining about islam, more as to turning their backs too it. Not agreeing to Conservatives on everything, but this one, yes.
I think you're making the mistake of not seeing the difference between attacking an ideology and attacking a certain people of a minority.
I'm all in favor of attacking both christianity and Islam as both doctrines are based on falsehoods. But I'm not prepared to join christians in attacking muslims who constitute a minority in the US. Muslims have the same rights as christians to live in this country, and like everyone, must obey our laws. If not, then just like everybody they should be prosecuted.
QuoteI think you're making the mistake of not seeing the difference between attacking an ideology and attacking a certain people of a minority.
I'm all in favor of attacking both christianity and Islam as both doctrines are based on falsehoods. But I'm not prepared to join christians in attacking muslims who constitute a minority in the US. Muslims have the same rights as christians to live in this country, and like everyone, must obey our laws. If not, then just like everybody they should be prosecuted.
Well, if they are populated enough, let's say, becomes a majority in a country. Then what about jihad attacks?
I am just saying, Islam, everywhere they go doesn't work in a democratic society because they take their religion too seriously. And won't accept anything other than "Sharia Law", which to them is God's law.
Also, they are told to decieve the unbeliever aslong as it helps Islam, which is basically us. So aslong as someone are willingly supporting, or helping Islam, then yes, they will say yes.
Edit: Also, why is it easier to make fun of Christianity than Islam. Answer: Christians won't kill you for it. Islam on the other hands goes on a riot. Just look at britain when it comes to Islam. It's really bad.
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl8BYizcTf4
Quote from: "Jorjor"Yes I know, the majority of Muslims are of the moderate/peaceful variety. But to label Islam itself as a "religion of peace" is also horribly innaccurate. The people we consider "extremists" are simply following what the their book says.
Since GWB, pretty much the only people I hear referring to Islam as a religion of peace are the people saying it isn't one. As in, I never hear anyone else calling it a religion of peace. I'm sure some people do, but the idea that everyone is calling it a religion of peace so the brave few have to fight the rising tide to make sure we don't forget that not all Muslims are peaceful seems a bit silly to me.
Quote from: "Jorjor"Also I have read a few articles that try to make it clear to readers that what they are not criticizing people, but rather the ideology that leads people to do things no sane person would do. Yet you'll scroll through the comments and some people will still be crying "Islamaphobe!"
I'm sure there are people who cry 'Islamophobe' when it doesn't apply, just as there are people who cry 'racist' when it doesn't apply.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "Rushrange"It seems like the conservatives got the right idea when it comes to Islam, when do Liberals address the problems with Islam?
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCaqRVy9zEk
Summary: My christian god is better than their muslim god.
I don't think that many atheists will go out of their way to defend Islam. The conservatives should apply their rhetoric to their own religion, which is a mishmash of contradictions, falsehoods and sheer lunatic fantasies.
Well, have fun letting islamic religion take over USA then... BOOM!.
Edit: The problem is people are so neutral about it, that no one will say anything against it. Maybe fear etc... I mean, i have not heard much Liberals complaining about islam, more as to turning their backs too it. Not agreeing to Conservatives on everything, but this one, yes.
The problem is that some people are so paranoid and bigoted about Islam that they go off the deep end with ridiculous doom prophecies and people who see a lot wrong with Islam but are honest and sane have to point out that no, in a country that borders no majority Muslim nation, has a current Muslim population of less than 2%, is the world's most powerful assimilation machine, has a bordering nation that is 90% Catholic and ready to send millions over as soon as we want to let them in, and is a constitutional democratic republic; Islam is not going to take over. And having to counter people who think Islam is going to overcome American civilization does detract from legitimate criticism of Islam...but the paranoids cry 'you're soft on Islam!' if you don't think splattering American mosques with pig's blood is a fine idea.
QuoteThe problem is that some people are so paranoid and bigoted about Islam that they go off the deep end with ridiculous doom prophecies and people who see a lot wrong with Islam but are honest and sane have to point out that no, in a country that borders no majority Muslim nation, has a current Muslim population of less than 2%, is the world's most powerful assimilation machine, has a bordering nation that is 90% Catholic and ready to send millions over as soon as we want to let them in, and is a constitutional democratic republic; Islam is not going to take over. And having to counter people who think Islam is going to overcome American civilization does detract from legitimate criticism of Islam...but the paranoids cry 'you're soft on Islam!' if you don't think splattering American mosques with pig's blood is a fine idea.
Well it seems to work out perfectly in UK. Just let them get higher birth rate and convert gulliable people who got the loose term of "Religion of Peace", and there you go.
Quote from: "Rushrange"QuoteI think you're making the mistake of not seeing the difference between attacking an ideology and attacking a certain people of a minority.
I'm all in favor of attacking both christianity and Islam as both doctrines are based on falsehoods. But I'm not prepared to join christians in attacking muslims who constitute a minority in the US. Muslims have the same rights as christians to live in this country, and like everyone, must obey our laws. If not, then just like everybody they should be prosecuted.
Well, if they are populated enough, let's say, becomes a majority in a country. Then what about jihad attacks?
I am just saying, Islam, everywhere they go doesn't work in a democratic society because they take their religion too seriously. And won't accept anything other than "Sharia Law", which to them is God's law.
Also, they are told to decieve the unbeliever aslong as it helps Islam, which is basically us. So aslong as someone are willingly supporting, or helping Islam, then yes, they will say yes.
You're just speculating on something that might never happen. You can't condemn 100 people because one or two among them could act out. We have our own terrorists -- anyone recall Timothy McVeigh? -- and we didn't go on persecuting all those who have similar views. Chances are if muslims get to live a successful life, they won't succomb to radicalization, which btw, can happen to
any group of people if they are constantly held in ignorance and poverty.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Well, if they are populated enough, let's say, becomes a majority in a country. Then what about jihad attacks?
It's often Muslims who alert authorities to 'jihad attacks'. There is no scientific demographic study that projects Muslims to become a majority in the USA...ever.
Quote from: "Rushrange"I am just saying, Islam, everywhere they go doesn't work in a democratic society because they take their religion too seriously. And won't accept anything other than "Sharia Law", which to them is God's law.
There are Muslim-majority countries that don't have Sharia. I can think of at least one Muslim-majority country that has freedom of religion.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Also, they are told to decieve the unbeliever aslong as it helps Islam, which is basically us. So aslong as someone are willingly supporting, or helping Islam, then yes, they will say yes.
They are permitted to lie about being Muslim to protect themselves from persecution that threatens their lives. There is no general instruction to lie for Islam.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Edit: Also, why is it easier to make fun of Christianity than Islam?
Is it really?
Quote from: "Rushrange"Answer: Christians won't kill you for it.
Not any more, anyway. Once upon a time you might have said that they take their religion too seriously and won't settle for any law that doesn't allow them to torture and execute heretics.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Islam on the other hands goes on a riot. Just look at britain when it comes to Islam. It's really bad.
Maybe you should hide under your bed. Wait, you won't do that because you're not actually afraid of Muslims 'getting you' for criticizing them. Neither is anyone else. The reason Christianity gets more criticism in Christian majority countries is that Christianity has the most impact on non-Christian's lives in those countries. Guess which religions get the most criticism from atheists in India? Hint: one starts with an 'H', the other starts with an 'M' and the one that starts with a 'C' is barely on their radar.
I think Europe has much more to fear from Islam, due to sheer immigration levels. Once you reach a certain point, there's very little incentive to assimilate and Islam will have the real power.
Quote from: "_Xenu_"I think Europe has much more to fear from Islam, due to sheer immigration levels. I read somewhere they're expected to be the majority in Britain within a generation or so, and if that happens, its effectively the end of the culture as we know it.
That'd be interesting. According to wikipedia, the current muslim population makes up around 5% of the total population. Now I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the majority
religion in another 25 years, but that's because christianity is dying out and by then there's a good chance muslims will make up 10% while the remaining 90% is mostly atheists.
But over 50% muslims? Not gonna happen.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Well it seems to work out perfectly in UK. Just let them get higher birth rate and convert gulliable people who got the loose term of "Religion of Peace", and there you go.
The UK is much closer to the Middle East and North Africa than the USA, and it doesn't have the same tradition of separation of religion and government. The UK has 'ghettoized' Muslim immigrants, concentrating poor populations in small areas where they form a local majority. In the USA, Muslims tend to be prosperous and successful middle class citizens. Muslim birth rates go down just like any other immigrants from the developing world in the second and third generations.
This is a case where the term 'American exceptionalism' is justified. The children of Muslim immigrants in the USA are watching the Disney channel, aspiring to play professional basketball, and can't seem to stop texting. They're just as susceptible to Americanization as anyone else. And now that cities are getting multiple mosques, they'll be competing with each other...and the Imam who says that a scarf is okay if you don't want to wear the hijab and jihad is supposed to only be spiritual is going to attract more members than one that tells them otherwise.
Muslims are not going to take over America. They will always be a minority here. And we will be able to deal with them more constructively than European countries have been able to, because America does assimilation relatively well due to sheer opportunities to practice it.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"Well it seems to work out perfectly in UK. Just let them get higher birth rate and convert gulliable people who got the loose term of "Religion of Peace", and there you go.
The UK is much closer to the Middle East and North Africa than the USA, and it doesn't have the same tradition of separation of religion and government. The UK has 'ghettoized' Muslim immigrants, concentrating poor populations in small areas where they form a local majority. In the USA, Muslims tend to be prosperous and successful middle class citizens. Muslim birth rates go down just like any other immigrants from the developing world in the second and third generations.
This is a case where the term 'American exceptionalism' is justified. The children of Muslim immigrants in the USA are watching the Disney channel, aspiring to play professional basketball, and can't seem to stop texting. They're just as susceptible to Americanization as anyone else. And now that cities are getting multiple mosques, they'll be competing with each other...and the Imam who says that a scarf is okay if you don't want to wear the hijab and jihad is supposed to only be spiritual is going to attract more members than one that tells them otherwise.
Muslims are not going to take over America. They will always be a minority here. And we will be able to deal with them more constructively than European countries have been able to, because America does assimilation relatively well due to sheer opportunities to practice it.
Alright, but don't come crying when they have convinced liberals to imigrate more to do more work for the American people, and bingo... Be warned
The American people don't even have enough jobs to supply work for the American people, the last thing they need is importing more people.
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "Rushrange"QuoteI think you're making the mistake of not seeing the difference between attacking an ideology and attacking a certain people of a minority.
I'm all in favor of attacking both christianity and Islam as both doctrines are based on falsehoods. But I'm not prepared to join christians in attacking muslims who constitute a minority in the US. Muslims have the same rights as christians to live in this country, and like everyone, must obey our laws. If not, then just like everybody they should be prosecuted.
Well, if they are populated enough, let's say, becomes a majority in a country. Then what about jihad attacks?
I am just saying, Islam, everywhere they go doesn't work in a democratic society because they take their religion too seriously. And won't accept anything other than "Sharia Law", which to them is God's law.
Also, they are told to decieve the unbeliever aslong as it helps Islam, which is basically us. So aslong as someone are willingly supporting, or helping Islam, then yes, they will say yes.
You're just speculating on something that might never happen. You can't condemn 100 people because one or two among them could act out. We have our own terrorists -- anyone recall Timothy McVeigh? -- and we didn't go on persecuting all those who have similar views. Chances are if muslims get to live a successful life, they won't succomb to radicalization, which btw, can happen to any group of people if they are constantly held in ignorance and poverty.
Well it has happend in Europe because politicians are so naive about it, and are just wishfully thinking it would be solved all by itself. However, there are some who has the balls to be against islamization, like "Geert Wilders"
QuoteWell it has happend in Europe because politicians are so naive about it, and are just wishfully thinking it would be solved all by itself. However, there are some who has the balls to be against islamization, like "Geert Wilders"
Geert is pretty much a useless politician, who screams about a lot of things but hasn't the first clue on how to actually solve any problems. There's a good reason nobody wants to work with him. Stating the obvious is not a political talent.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "Rushrange"Well, if they are populated enough, let's say, becomes a majority in a country. Then what about jihad attacks?
I am just saying, Islam, everywhere they go doesn't work in a democratic society because they take their religion too seriously. And won't accept anything other than "Sharia Law", which to them is God's law.
Also, they are told to decieve the unbeliever aslong as it helps Islam, which is basically us. So aslong as someone are willingly supporting, or helping Islam, then yes, they will say yes.
You're just speculating on something that might never happen. You can't condemn 100 people because one or two among them could act out. We have our own terrorists -- anyone recall Timothy McVeigh? -- and we didn't go on persecuting all those who have similar views. Chances are if muslims get to live a successful life, they won't succomb to radicalization, which btw, can happen to any group of people if they are constantly held in ignorance and poverty.
Well it has happend in Europe because politicians are so naive about it, and are just wishfully thinking it would be solved all by itself. However, there are some who has the balls to be against islamization, like "Geert Wilders"
In Europe, the Muslims are basically confined to ghettos, with little economic opportunities. Such policies are recipes for disaster. In the US, we don't have that problem.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteWell it has happend in Europe because politicians are so naive about it, and are just wishfully thinking it would be solved all by itself. However, there are some who has the balls to be against islamization, like "Geert Wilders"
Geert is pretty much a useless politician, who screams about a lot of things but hasn't the first clue on how to actually solve any problems. There's a good reason nobody wants to work with him. Stating the obvious is not a political talent.
So you support Islam then?
- Female genital mutilation
- Honor killings
- Jihad attacks
So your point is, don't support people who dislike Islam, that is bad, right. Because Islam have good values... right?
I'm not sure where this non-sequitor came from, but it is pretty funny. You should maybe read my other posts in this topic. Specifically the one where I air my dislike for Islam.
You do win a ribbon for "dumbest argument of the week" though. Congratulations. You just beat out our latest militant vegetarian with that one.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"Alright, but don't come crying when they have convinced liberals to imigrate more to do more work for the American people, and bingo... Be warned
Not to put too fine a point on it, but should we need to import labor, Mexico and other countries to our south are a much more convenient source of it.
QuoteIn Europe, the Muslims are basically confined to ghettos, with little economic opportunities. Such policies are recipes for disaster. In the US, we don't have that problem.
My point is, they don't have anything of good value to teach us, even if we help them, they are not interested in integrating, maybe some exceptions, but if they have accepted Islam into their life, then no!
Now, you're trolling.
QuoteNot to put too fine a point on it, but should we need to import labor, Mexico and other countries to our south are a much more convenient source of it.
Mexicans don't have a dangerous religion or ideology like Islam. There's a difference.
Quote from: "Rushrange"So you support Islam then?
Nothing Plu said would support that conclusion.
Quote from: "Rushrange"So your point is, don't support people who dislike Islam, that is bad, right. Because Islam have good values... right?
Maybe in an alternate dimension where things are all topsy-turvy. Plu's point was more likely 'don't support people who are stupid and don't know what they're doing'.
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Now, you're trolling.
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEGMzQjd-dc
Have a nice day.
Quote from: "Rushrange"QuoteNot to put too fine a point on it, but should we need to import labor, Mexico and other countries to our south are a much more convenient source of it.
Mexicans don't have a dangerous religion or ideology like Islam. There's a difference.
No kidding. I wasn't objecting to Mexican immigration. My point was that if we need labor, there is no reason to go all the way to Africa, the Middle East, or Indonesia for it. The libruls ainta goin' ta bring no moozlims over ta steal the jobs of honest Amurikans.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"So you support Islam then?
Nothing Plu said would support that conclusion.
Quote from: "Rushrange"So your point is, don't support people who dislike Islam, that is bad, right. Because Islam have good values... right?
Maybe in an alternate dimension where things are all topsy-turvy. Plu's point was more likely 'don't support people who are stupid and don't know what they're doing'.
So your term of stupid is telling it as it is. While not stupid is jihad attacks and turn a blind eye to it, and say it's just extremists, and not islam itself that makes them violent when they are taught by their imams at an early age. Makes sense....right? :)
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"QuoteNot to put too fine a point on it, but should we need to import labor, Mexico and other countries to our south are a much more convenient source of it.
Mexicans don't have a dangerous religion or ideology like Islam. There's a difference.
No kidding. I wasn't objecting to Mexican immigration. My point was that if we need labor, there is no reason to go all the way to Africa, the Middle East, or Indonesia for it. The libruls ainta goin' ta bring no moozlims over ta steal the jobs of honest Amurikans.
Well, i support less Muslim immigration. That sounds like a good plan.
When it comes to employment. Let's hope people can get a job, not gonna talk less about people who don't have job. But i guess you mean this... //http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik
Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Now, you're trolling.
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEGMzQjd-dc
Have a nice day.
There are over 1 billion Muslims. Yet you seem to think they are all terrorists, and they're not. Get a grip on reality.
Quote from: "Rushrange"My point is, they don't have anything of good value to teach us, even if we help them, they are not interested in integrating, maybe some exceptions, but if they have accepted Islam into their life, then no!
Have you ever met one?
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Now, you're trolling.
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEGMzQjd-dc
Have a nice day.
There are over 1 billion Muslims. Yet you seem to think they are all terrorists, and they're not. Get a grip on reality.
Yeah, but they don't need terrorism, they are doing it perfectly fine at home. Stoning, beating their wives. And speaking of terrorism.
- Muslim Brotherhood
- Al Qaida.
Just by mentioning a few.
Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "Rushrange"My point is, they don't have anything of good value to teach us, even if we help them, they are not interested in integrating, maybe some exceptions, but if they have accepted Islam into their life, then no!
Have you ever met one?
Well, if you look at news. And see violent behavior because they think their sharia law is more important than our law, and constitution. Then yes. Besides, even if they act nice. Do you know that according to the quran, you can lie to the infiidel, and even act as a friend.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "Rushrange"//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEGMzQjd-dc
Have a nice day.
There are over 1 billion Muslims. Yet you seem to think they are all terrorists, and they're not. Get a grip on reality.
Yeah, but they don't need terrorism, they are doing it perfectly fine at home. Stoning, beating their wives. And speaking of terrorism.
- Muslim Brotherhood
- Al Qaida.
Just by mentioning a few.
There are just as many people with crazy ideas in other religions, and just as dangerous. What we need to do is denounce those crazy ideas but with sound, rational and logical arguments. Repression as you are suggesting doesn't pay in the long run.
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"There are over 1 billion Muslims. Yet you seem to think they are all terrorists, and they're not. Get a grip on reality.
Right, worst terrorists ever. You'd think a billion people could put more of a dent in the non-Muslim population. If 10% of them would just kill one non-Muslim a year, that would be roughly 130 million fewer non-Muslims each year, and 1.3 billion non-Muslims killed every ten years. They would have a global majority in about fifty years (probably much sooner, as a lot of people would convert once they saw which way the wind was blowing). I wonder what's stopping them, since their Imams teach them to be terrorists from a young age and all?
Quote from: "Rushrange"But i guess you mean this... //http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik
I wouldn't know. I'm on a secure network and can't view youtube links. Given your record on interpreting what other people's posts mean so far, I'll hazard that it's highly unlikely that whatever that is, is actually what I mean.
QuoteThere are just as many people with crazy ideas in other religions, and just as dangerous. What we need to do is denounce those crazy ideas but with sound, rational and logical arguments. Repression as you are suggesting doesn't pay in the long run.
Aka, turn a blind eye on Islam and treat them all equally. And nothing gets done.
I'm saying either troll or too stupid to continue talking to. At any rate; clearly a Poe.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "josephpalazzo"There are over 1 billion Muslims. Yet you seem to think they are all terrorists, and they're not. Get a grip on reality.
Right, worst terrorists ever. You'd think a billion people could put more of a dent in the non-Muslim population. If 10% of them would just kill one non-Muslim a year, that would be roughly 130 million fewer non-Muslims each year, and 1.3 billion non-Muslims killed every ten years. They would have a global majority in about fifty years (probably much sooner, as a lot of people would convert once they saw which way the wind was blowing). I wonder what's stopping them, since their Imams teach them to be terrorists from a young age and all?
I answered that question, look it up :)
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"But i guess you mean this... //http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik
I wouldn't know. I'm on a secure network and can't view youtube links. Given your record on interpreting what other people's posts mean so far, I'll hazard that it's highly unlikely that whatever that is, is actually what I mean.
Well you can think what you like, so that's ok.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Do you know that according to the quran, you can lie to the infiidel, and even act as a friend.
Do you know that according to the Bible, you can have your kids stoned to death for being drunken louts? They have just as much of a right to cherry-pick their scriptures to fit in with the modern world as Jews and Christians do.
And that verse is talking about lying to save your life from people who would murder you if they knew you were a Muslim.
Quote from: "Rushrange"I answered that question, look it up :)
I refuted your answer, look it up. =P~
Quote from: "Jorjor"I can't be the only one annoyed by this. As a liberal myself, I'm of at a loss as to why liberals(particularly liberal theists) are so quick to jump to the defense of islam. Especially considering islam is the farthest thing from "liberal"(anti-women, anti-gay, anti-free speech, anti-tolerance for non-muslims)
We love to bash on Christianity, as we should be doing, don't get me wrong. Yet, no one can criticize islam without being labeled an "islamaphobic" bigot :roll: Why??
In what context?
I find all pet deity claims absurd. I also find fundies in all religions, especially those who threaten outsiders with hell, or have gender roles for girls/women, sick.
But as a human rights standpoint and legal law standpoint, I will defend anyone's rights. I got really pissed at New Yorkers and Americans who bitched about Muslims buying a building near Ground Zero. No one was breaking the law.
But the same can be said with Israel and Jews, if you raise one peep about that country doing something stupid, you get falsely labeled anti Semitic.
Humans value what is local. In evolution it amounts to the Alpha male reacting negatively to a subordinate, even if that subordinate is merely trying to help them.
It is not "Islamophobic" to say "treat your women better assholes". It is not Anti Semitic to say "Hey Israel, you look like jerks swatting flies with sledgehammers".
There are 7 billion people on this planet, the sooner we accept we are not a separate species the better off we will be.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"Do you know that according to the quran, you can lie to the infiidel, and even act as a friend.
Do you know that according to the Bible, you can have your kids stoned to death for being drunken louts? They have just as much of a right to cherry-pick their scriptures to fit in with the modern world as Jews and Christians do.
And that verse is talking about lying to save your life from people who would murder you if they knew you were a Muslim.
Well i can see you defend Islam by the last quote here. But Christianity went through "The Age of Enlightenment" period, just because it is in the old testament, dosen't mean they practice it, which hense towards Jesus, throw the first rock etc.
So, when is Islam going to do that... oh wait, they have muhammad, my bad.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"I answered that question, look it up :)
I refuted your answer, look it up. =P~
:P
Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "Jason78"Have you ever met one?
Well, if you look at news. And see violent behavior because they think their sharia law is more important than our law, and constitution. Then yes.
(//http://i.imgur.com/9Xy2Y.gif)
*pencils in "No" *
QuoteBesides, even if they act nice. Do you know that according to the quran, you can lie to the infiidel, and even act as a friend.
Naturally. :rolleyes:
Quote from: "Rushrange"QuoteThere are just as many people with crazy ideas in other religions, and just as dangerous. What we need to do is denounce those crazy ideas but with sound, rational and logical arguments. Repression as you are suggesting doesn't pay in the long run.
Aka, turn a blind eye on Islam and treat them all equally. And nothing gets done.
How is it that denouncing their crazy (religious) ideas is turning a blind eye???
Quote from: "Hydra009"Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "Jason78"Have you ever met one?
Well, if you look at news. And see violent behavior because they think their sharia law is more important than our law, and constitution. Then yes.
[ Image (//http://i.imgur.com/9Xy2Y.gif) ]
*pencils in "No" *
QuoteBesides, even if they act nice. Do you know that according to the quran, you can lie to the infiidel, and even act as a friend.
Naturally. :rolleyes:
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DmFRZ9jCFc
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"Quote from: "Rushrange"QuoteThere are just as many people with crazy ideas in other religions, and just as dangerous. What we need to do is denounce those crazy ideas but with sound, rational and logical arguments. Repression as you are suggesting doesn't pay in the long run.
Aka, turn a blind eye on Islam and treat them all equally. And nothing gets done.
How is it that denouncing their crazy (religious) ideas is turning a blind eye???
Because you don't see that Islam is more crazier than other religions?
It's like saying Islam and other religions are the same when in reality, it's not. I can prove it by sending links if you like.
Quote from: "Rushrange"//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DmFRZ9jCFc
(//http://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/-3+10+most+obvious+fail+troll+ever.+go+kill+urself+_14edad1c6282680c3686aba8a716510a.png)
Sorry, but time and context matter. ALL clubs centered around the god/s of Abraham have a central head figure which is a bloodthirsty bastard who is a childish narcissist bully who beats the shit out of any dissent.
Islam simply has not had it's leash put on it to the same extent Christians in the west have. The god/s of Abraham are the same god, books aside. Christianity simply has had more time to be cherry picked and watered down.
The core problem with any of these clubs is that it creates the "in group" vs "out group" dynamic through the "chosen people" motif all three have. Those underpinnings are always there, leash or not.
Quote from: "Hydra009"Quote from: "Rushrange"//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DmFRZ9jCFc
[ Image (//http://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/-3+10+most+obvious+fail+troll+ever.+go+kill+urself+_14edad1c6282680c3686aba8a716510a.png) ]
(//http://i.qkme.me/f1y.jpg)
QuoteQuote from: "Rushrange"Aka, turn a blind eye on Islam and treat them all equally. And nothing gets done.
QuoteHow is it that denouncing their crazy (religious) ideas is turning a blind eye???
Because you don't see that Islam is more crazier than other religions?
It's like saying Islam and other religions are the same when in reality, it's not. I can prove it by sending links if you like.
You seem to forget that US military is always pursuing the terrorists, no matter where there are, or how long they've committed their crimes. Just the recent capture of Anas al Libi in Libya is an obvious example. So we are not soft on terrorists. But like I said, muslims are free to live in this country, and just like any other citizen, must obey our laws. And in regard to their beliefs, then it is upon all of us to denounce those ideas that are unacceptable from our POV.
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"QuoteQuote from: "Rushrange"Aka, turn a blind eye on Islam and treat them all equally. And nothing gets done.
QuoteHow is it that denouncing their crazy (religious) ideas is turning a blind eye???
Because you don't see that Islam is more crazier than other religions?
It's like saying Islam and other religions are the same when in reality, it's not. I can prove it by sending links if you like.
You seem to forget that US military is always pursuing the terrorists, no matter where there are, or how long they've committed their crimes. Just the recent capture of Anas al Libi in Libya is an obvious example. So we are not soft on terrorists. But like I said, muslims are free to live in this country, and just like any other citizen, must obey our laws. And in regard to their beliefs, then it is upon all of us to denounce those ideas that are unacceptable from our POV.
Well i am glad that they have captured a terrorist. But now my concern is if Obama will help the rebels when it comes to "Syria". In which i am against, because i believe Syria has potential to be secular, without US interfering there. But it seems most Americans also are against it aswell.
But like i said, Islam is just evil, you can think whatever you like about it, but if something doesn't gets done, then we in the future, may be under Sharia Law, because that is what Muslims wish for. If you disagree ok, you can have your opinion on that. But i will say, i disagree, and don't think it belongs in a democratic free society, that's just my opinion.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Well i can see you defend Islam by the last quote here.
You can see that I like for the things that people say to actually be true. If you said Hitler was known for kicking puppies and I said that he was a dog-lover, it wouldn't be Hitler I was defending, but truth.
Quote from: "Rushrange"But Christianity went through "The Age of Enlightenment" period, just because it is in the old testament, dosen't mean they practice it, which hense towards Jesus, throw the first rock etc.
So, when is Islam going to do that... oh wait, they have muhammad, my bad.
And the Jews had a ton of other prophets, it didn't stop them. Just because it is in the Qu'ran doesn't mean they have to practice it. A lot of what hard-line Islamist nations practice isn't even in the Qu'ran, they get it from the Hadiths. There is no Pope of Islam, every Imam has the authority to teach his own interretation of the Qu'ran. For this reason, Islam tends to reflect the economic and political situations of the times and places in which it is found. The country with the most Muslims is Indonesia (over 200 million), but Indonesians don't have a reputation for international terrorism. Most Islamic terrorists come from a handful of the same countries over and over again, but we blame their terrorism on their religion instead of on their regional political situation.
We would be having problems with the people of those regions (the Middle East, primarily) even if they had a different religion. If not for Islam, most of them would probably have wound up being Orthodox Christians, and have been just as bypassed by modernity as the Muslims. They would still have ethnic conflicts. They would still be mostly poor. Some of them would still have oil resources that would make their rulers rich. Maybe it wouldn't be
quite as bad as it has been under Islam, but it would still be very bad.
Allied forces partitioned the Middle East as they saw fit. America installed a brutal dictator over Iran because their old president nationalized the oil companies. America props up the House of Saud in Arabia with our military forces. Arguably, the Taliban wouldn't have come into existence if America hadn't supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets (including providing Islamist books for their children). Nearly all of our Islamic terrorist trouble can be related to our Cold War and WWII policies coming back to bite us on the ass. Iranian women in the seventies were wearing skirts above the knee and no head gear. Afghani population centers were going the same direction as Iran. Our fear of communism put us on the side of the Islamists. When I was a kid, when you thought of a connection between terrorism and religion, 'Catholic vs. Protestant' was the first thing to come to mind. The Islamic Middle East wasn't always as at odds with us as it is now.
However bad Islamic extremism may have been fifty years ago, America bears a large portion of the responsibility for how bad it is today. If we had the power to learn from our mistakes, we would deal with each Islamic faction and nation on its own merits and flaws, with an eye to future repercussions. I'm not sure we have that power, though.
Islam is as silly as Christianity. Islamism is as bad an idea as Christianism, but is worse only in the sense that it has more traction (Christian Dominionists have openly stated that they'd re-introduce stoning as a punishment for adultery were they in power). Muslims are diverse and generally peaceful. The worst practices associated with them tend to be cases where tribal customs interact badly with the religion. There is no mention of female genital mutilation in the Qu'ran, only in hadith which approve of it but don't say it is required. It is not practiced in Mecca and Medina, and has been practiced by Copts in Egypt and the Sudan. The 'Islamic World' can change to be more compatible with the modern world, because Muslims are people, people change, and the Qu'ran doesn't have any magical powers to stop that from happening.
Quote from: "Rushrange"But like i said, Islam is just evil, you can think whatever you like about it, but if something doesn't gets done, then we in the future, may be under Sharia Law, because that is what Muslims wish for. If you disagree ok, you can have your opinion on that. But i will say, i disagree, and don't think it belongs in a democratic free society, that's just my opinion.
If you live in a society that doesn't allow people to be Muslims or speak out in favor of Islam, it is not a democratic free society.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"Well i can see you defend Islam by the last quote here.
You can see that I like for the things that people say to actually be true. If you said Hitler was known for kicking puppies and I said that he was a dog-lover, it wouldn't be Hitler I was defending, but truth.
Quote from: "Rushrange"But Christianity went through "The Age of Enlightenment" period, just because it is in the old testament, dosen't mean they practice it, which hense towards Jesus, throw the first rock etc.
So, when is Islam going to do that... oh wait, they have muhammad, my bad.
And the Jews had a ton of other prophets, it didn't stop them. Just because it is in the Qu'ran doesn't mean they have to practice it. A lot of what hard-line Islamist nations practice isn't even in the Qu'ran, they get it from the Hadiths. There is no Pope of Islam, every Imam has the authority to teach his own interretation of the Qu'ran. For this reason, Islam tends to reflect the economic and political situations of the times and places in which it is found. The country with the most Muslims is Indonesia (over 200 million), but Indonesians don't have a reputation for international terrorism. Most Islamic terrorists come from a handful of the same countries over and over again, but we blame their terrorism on their religion instead of on their regional political situation.
We would be having problems with the people of those regions (the Middle East, primarily) even if they had a different religion. If not for Islam, most of them would probably have wound up being Orthodox Christians, and have been just as bypassed by modernity as the Muslims. They would still have ethnic conflicts. They would still be mostly poor. Some of them would still have oil resources that would make their rulers rich. Maybe it wouldn't be quite as bad as it has been under Islam, but it would still be very bad.
Allied forces partitioned the Middle East as they saw fit. America installed a brutal dictator over Iran because their old president nationalized the oil companies. America props up the House of Saud in Arabia with our military forces. Arguably, the Taliban wouldn't have come into existence if America hadn't supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets (including providing Islamist books for their children). Nearly all of our Islamic terrorist trouble can be related to our Cold War and WWII policies coming back to bite us on the ass. Iranian women in the seventies were wearing skirts above the knee and no head gear. Afghani population centers were going the same direction as Iran. Our fear of communism put us on the side of the Islamists. When I was a kid, when you thought of a connection between terrorism and religion, 'Catholic vs. Protestant' was the first thing to come to mind. The Islamic Middle East wasn't always as at odds with us as it is now.
However bad Islamic extremism may have been fifty years ago, America bears a large portion of the responsibility for how bad it is today. If we had the power to learn from our mistakes, we would deal with each Islamic faction and nation on its own merits and flaws, with an eye to future repercussions. I'm not sure we have that power, though.
Islam is as silly as Christianity. Islamism is as bad an idea as Christianism, but is worse only in the sense that it has more traction (Christian Dominionists have openly stated that they'd re-introduce stoning as a punishment for adultery were they in power). Muslims are diverse and generally peaceful. The worst practices associated with them tend to be cases where tribal customs interact badly with the religion. There is no mention of female genital mutilation in the Qu'ran, only in hadith which approve of it but don't say it is required. It is not practiced in Mecca and Medina, and has been practiced by Copts in Egypt and the Sudan. The 'Islamic World' can change to be more compatible with the modern world, because Muslims are people, people change, and the Qu'ran doesn't have any magical powers to stop that from happening.
(//http://goodgamery.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Wall_Of_Text_xerent.jpg)
So, you are saying basically, that, Christianity, is just as bad as Islam.
Well alright... let's see.
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyo1FlS1huQ
Yeah, the religion of peace strikes again :P
They are so alike, you are absolutely right there.
You guys realise you're literally talking to a troll who has a picture of a bowl of popcorn as his avatar?
Quote from: "Plu"You guys realise you're literally talking to a troll who has a picture of a bowl of popcorn as his avatar?
(//http://i.qkme.me/f1y.jpg)
Quote from: "Plu"You guys realise you're literally talking to a troll who has a picture of a bowl of popcorn as his avatar?
Since you had to say it, probably not.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Rushrange"But like i said, Islam is just evil, you can think whatever you like about it, but if something doesn't gets done, then we in the future, may be under Sharia Law, because that is what Muslims wish for. If you disagree ok, you can have your opinion on that. But i will say, i disagree, and don't think it belongs in a democratic free society, that's just my opinion.
If you live in a society that doesn't allow people to be Muslims or speak out in favor of Islam, it is not a democratic free society.
Well neither is it, if Islam is dominant, which is why it should not be allowed. That's the point.
Quote from: "Rushrange"But like i said, Islam is just evil, you can think whatever you like about it, but if something doesn't gets done, then we in the future, may be under Sharia Law, because that is what Muslims wish for.
And what is this "something" that must be done? :-k
(//http://i.imgur.com/NnoGhN1.gif)
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"I resent when people are singled out as a racist by ignoramuses who apparently don't even understand what that word really means.
If you think Muslims are a race then you are not very smart.
You're absolutely right. People who think a religious minority that comprises less than 2% of their nation's population is about to kill everyone and overthrow the country are paranoid bigots, not racists.
I agree that's a silly idea.
America is the last place in the world that needs to worry about succumbing to Muslim influence.
Quote from: "Plu"You guys realise you're literally talking to a troll who has a picture of a bowl of popcorn as his avatar?
Yes, but he's playing such an ignorant persona that talking to him makes me feel smarter.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Quote from: "Jason78"Quote from: "Rushrange"My point is, they don't have anything of good value to teach us, even if we help them, they are not interested in integrating, maybe some exceptions, but if they have accepted Islam into their life, then no!
Have you ever met one?
Well, if you look at news. And see violent behavior because they think their sharia law is more important than our law, and constitution. Then yes. Besides, even if they act nice. Do you know that according to the quran, you can lie to the infiidel, and even act as a friend.
I have actually met one. I work alongside him. And I say you're full of shit.
Quote from: "Rushrange"[ Image (//http://goodgamery.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Wall_Of_Text_xerent.jpg) ]
So, you are saying basically, that, Christianity, is just as bad as Islam.
No, I'm saying that pointing at Salafist Sunnis and saying 'that's Islam' is like pointing at the Westboro Baptist church and saying 'that's Christianity'. And pointing at Al Qaeda and saying 'that's Islam' is like pointing at the Lord's Resistance Army and saying 'that's Christianity'. There is no one Islam or one Christianity. When a Christian does something bad we say it's for some other reason or if it's clearly because of their religion, we write it off as being that one crazy sect. When a Muslim does something bad, we automatically leap to blaming Islam itself. It's not that simple, and if you treat it like it's that simple, you'll only make things worse. Treating Islamic countries in a simplistic way is what got us here.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Well alright... let's see.
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgpHHoIvU2I
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyo1FlS1huQ
As I mentioned not that long ago, I cannot view youtube links on this computer.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Yeah, the religion of peace strikes again :P
They are so alike, you are absolutely right there.
You can't prove anything about a demographic with youtube links. If I posted youtube links showing the opposite, that wouldn't prove anything either. Which is just as well, no one wants to see videos of Christian organizations like the LRA or KKK in action anyway.
If you want to say something about Muslims vs. Christians, it's best to go with scientific surveys. You need to be able to say something like .005% of Muslims in the USA are murderers compared to only .002% of American Christians, or the like.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Well neither is it, if Islam is dominant, which is why it should not be allowed. That's the point.
So we should be more like Islam so we won't become more like Islam?
This guy is funny, in a disturbing, stupid ass, bigoted, knee jerk, know nothing fucktard sort of way
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Christianity didn't go through "The Age of Enlightenment", "The Age of Enlightenment" went through Christianity,lol. And after that it took a lot of pain for Western civilisation to get where it is now, which still has a long way to go.
Christianity is still standing at the same place. Remove the secular states, you are back in dark ages in a few decades.
Exactly. Hence the strong desire to prop up our hard won but ever-threatened secularism as best we can. We've come too far to turn back.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Jorjor"Yes I know, the majority of Muslims are of the moderate/peaceful variety. But to label Islam itself as a "religion of peace" is also horribly innaccurate. The people we consider "extremists" are simply following what the their book says.
Since GWB, pretty much the only people I hear referring to Islam as a religion of peace are the people saying it isn't one. As in, I never hear anyone else calling it a religion of peace. I'm sure some people do, but the idea that everyone is calling it a religion of peace so the brave few have to fight the rising tide to make sure we don't forget that not all Muslims are peaceful seems a bit silly to me.
I've heard quite a few people say it(moderate muslims mainly).
Quote from: "Brian37"Christianity simply has had more time to be cherry picked and watered down.
I do agree with you here.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"No, I'm saying that pointing at Salafist Sunnis and saying 'that's Islam' is like pointing at the Westboro Baptist church and saying 'that's Christianity'. And pointing at Al Qaeda and saying 'that's Islam' is like pointing at the Lord's Resistance Army and saying 'that's Christianity'.
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home).
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Yup, definitely not Islam.... :-?
Luke 19.27:"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Jesus.
So what? All of the " holy books" are full of this shit.
Quote from: "Jmpty"All of the " holy books" are full of this shit.
Yes they are
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"The UK has 'ghettoized' Muslim immigrants, concentrating poor populations in small areas where they form a local majority. In the USA, Muslims tend to be prosperous and successful middle class citizens. Muslim birth rates go down just like any other immigrants from the developing world in the second and third generations.
This is a case where the term 'American exceptionalism' is justified. The children of Muslim immigrants in the USA are watching the Disney channel, aspiring to play professional basketball, and can't seem to stop texting. They're just as susceptible to Americanization as anyone else.
The UK and Australia have cradle to the grave welfare with cheap government housing and the ghettos are formed in these areas, the USA does not have generous welfare which is why they dont have the same problems with integration.
Of course the leftist apologists take the Islamic line that muslims are never at fault it is always the fault of non muslims on why they form ghettos,Islam has an ingrained victim mentality which helps with propaganda.
The kids of those chechen immigrants appeared to fit in real well, untill they let off a few bombs in Boston.
Quote from: "Jorjor"Quote from: "Brian37"Christianity simply has had more time to be cherry picked and watered down.
I do agree with you here.
Islam forbids cherry picking, once upon a time before political correctness we called the Islamic terrorists
fundamentalists, the leftist idiots changed this to extemists when fundamentalist spelled it out clearly.
If you speak to a muslim they will tell you the Quran forbids cherry picking in this verse and that makes it different from all the other delusions-
//http://www.quran.com/2/85
Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"I resent when people are singled out as a racist by ignoramuses who apparently don't even understand what that word really means.
If you think Muslims are a race then you are not very smart.
You're absolutely right. People who think a religious minority that comprises less than 2% of their nation's population is about to kill everyone and overthrow the country are paranoid bigots, not racists.
I agree that's a silly idea.
America is the last place in the world that needs to worry about succumbing to Muslim influence.
QuoteThe purpose of jihad in Islam is not to kill non muslims,rather the purpose is to establish the religion of allah on earth,to establish the rule of his shariah
//http://www.islamqa.com/en/21961
The impotence of muslims should never be mistaken for lack of intent.
South Park showed us how far the USA has succumbed to Islam,Islam does mean submission and the Americans have that bit down and they are not even muslims. :rollin:
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"No, I'm saying that pointing at Salafist Sunnis and saying 'that's Islam' is like pointing at the Westboro Baptist church and saying 'that's Christianity'
When a Muslim does something bad, we automatically leap to blaming Islam itself.
So what do the Salafis do that is considered unislamic? Did Muhammad Wahhab introduce new innovations or did he purify Islam by removing innovations?
I have seen mild sunnis asking salafis for opinions on Islam, the salafis are fundamental with their Islam.
When a muslim does something bad the leftist apologists blame everything but Islamic ideology.
[youtube:2bspqqae]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNTRBTzJwCc[/youtube:2bspqqae]
[youtube:2bspqqae]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pDcTw1VgOs[/youtube:2bspqqae]
[youtube:2bspqqae]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIVOb1EbSUU[/youtube:2bspqqae]
I am off to another forum that has muslims posting in it, i prefer that to arguing with American Islamic apologists in a atheist forum.
QuoteSo what do the Salafis do that is considered unislamic? Did Muhammad Wahhab introduce new innovations or did he purify Islam by removing innovations?
So what do Westboroughs do that is considered unchristian? Did Pastor Phelps introduce new innovations or did he purify Christianity by removing innovations?
QuoteWhen a muslim does something bad the leftist apologists blame everything but Islamic ideology.
Yeah, no shit, because that isn't the way humans work. I think most "leftist apologists" will agree that Islam does take some of the blame, but we also say, "Look, hold up... we cant blame the problem on one cause and just ignore all the other factors that go into.".
Just like I don't blame the Lord's Resistance Army solely on Christianity or the KKK solely on racism. People aren't just racist or a religious fanatic; it is something that is taught to them and more often than not taught to them by people who are economically and socially struggling or perceived to have been wronged by another power (LRA - the Ugandan Gov't, The Troubles in Ireland - Britain, Taliban - United States/Western Powers, some racists - immigrants stealing their jobs/money/committing crimes).
At this point it is a tangled mess, but if we were to completely abolish Islam right now, just poof it out of existence... the majority of the terrorists and fundamentalists would still continue to behave just the same way. Islam is their excuse, but without it they will just find another... see the African who "proved" homosexuality wrong with "science" or the American psychologists and scientist of old who deemed women incapable of being able to govern themselves or have rights because their "brains weren't developed as a man's were".
So this is why "leftist apologists", or at least I, do not run around proclaiming Islam to be the problem. To blame it on Islam is a knee-jerk reaction that only validates the oppressors; instead of focusing on the root causes, we attack their scapegoat and they can turn around and say, "You see, you see! They are the enemy! They attack our faith, our culture!".
It is very hard to say that the person who wants to increase your standard of living or offer you equal rights is the boogieman... possible, but hard. It is not so hard to say the person screaming, "Islam is evil! It is the root of all evil! Your culture is why you are evil!" is the badman.
QuoteQuote from: "Rushrange"Because you don't see that Islam is more crazier than other religions?
It's like saying Islam and other religions are the same when in reality, it's not. I can prove it by sending links if you like.
Quote from: "josephpalazzo"You seem to forget that US military is always pursuing the terrorists, no matter where there are, or how long they've committed their crimes. Just the recent capture of Anas al Libi in Libya is an obvious example. So we are not soft on terrorists. But like I said, muslims are free to live in this country, and just like any other citizen, must obey our laws. And in regard to their beliefs, then it is upon all of us to denounce those ideas that are unacceptable from our POV.
Quote from: "Rushrange"Well i am glad that they have captured a terrorist. But now my concern is if Obama will help the rebels when it comes to "Syria". In which i am against, because i believe Syria has potential to be secular, without US interfering there. But it seems most Americans also are against it aswell.
But like i said, Islam is just evil, you can think whatever you like about it, but if something doesn't gets done, then we in the future, may be under Sharia Law, because that is what Muslims wish for. If you disagree ok, you can have your opinion on that. But i will say, i disagree, and don't think it belongs in a democratic free society, that's just my opinion.
But it is also undemocratic to repress the right to self-expression. And muslims have this right in the US. But we, as atheists, have also the right to denounce their beliefs and practices. What's important in a democracy is that in principle, no one can operate above the law.
Quote from: "Shiranu"People aren't just racist or a religious fanatic; it is something that is taught to them.
Um, yeah, most likely by the Quran, There are numerous verses the specifically command muslims to fight and kill non-believers. The book DOES tell them to do that sort of stuff. They don't just pluck it out of the blue. Many liberals make it out like Islam is this peaceful innocent religion that was somehow hijacked by crazies. Sorry but most of the things these so called "extremists" do come straight from the book itself.
QuoteMany liberals make it out like Islam is this peaceful innocent religion that was somehow hijacked by crazies.
I've never met one of
those before. Where do you find these wacko liberals you speak of?
Mmm... i like nice people. They are cozy to hang out with ^^
Quote from: "Jorjor"Quote from: "Shiranu"People aren't just racist or a religious fanatic; it is something that is taught to them.
Um, yeah, most likely by the Quran, There are numerous verses the specifically command muslims to fight and kill non-believers. The book DOES tell them to do that sort of stuff. They don't just pluck it out of the blue. Many liberals make it out like Islam is this peaceful innocent religion that was somehow hijacked by crazies. Sorry but most of the things these so called "extremists" do come straight from the book itself.
You're right, they don't pick it out of the blue... they cherry pick it from their cultures dominant holy book to justify their actions. Just like the Inquisition used the Bible to justify murdering and exile Jews (who were perceived as being economically better-off, mostly due to the fact that Europeans didn't let them do anything BUT economically good jobs), the Christian terrorists of Ireland and Uganda use religious doctrine to justify their terrorism or slave owners saying that the one dude's skin was turned black for being disobedient, therefor god WANTED blacks to be slaves.
I think you must have missed my entire post; humans are not as simple as you want to make them out to be. These conflicts are rooted in all sorts of cultural, political and socioeconomic issues and by blaming it all on Islam you only give ammo to the oppressors and ignore the root problems.
Now if you want to some how twist that into, "Liberals say Islam is a religion of peace."... good luck with that.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Quote from: "Jorjor"Quote from: "Shiranu"You're right, they don't pick it out of the blue... they cherry pick it from their cultures dominant holy book to justify their actions. Just like the Inquisition used the Bible to justify murdering and exile Jews (who were perceived as being economically better-off, mostly due to the fact that Europeans didn't let them do anything BUT economically good jobs), the Christian terrorists of Ireland and Uganda use religious doctrine to justify their terrorism or slave owners saying that the one dude's skin was turned black for being disobedient, therefor god WANTED blacks to be slaves.
I think you must have missed my entire post; humans are not as simple as you want to make them out to be. These conflicts are rooted in all sorts of cultural, political and socioeconomic issues and by blaming it all on Islam you only give ammo to the oppressors and ignore the root problems.
Now if you want to some how twist that into, "Liberals say Islam is a religion of peace."... good luck with that.
I'm not saying there aren't other factors involved. I'm well aware that control and oppression was one of the key reasons man created religion to begin with. I'm not sure I agree that criticizing Islam would give ammo to the opressors. If anything, dismantling their religion give them nothing to hide behind.
I'm sure we could make a whole nother thread discussing the underlying socioecomic, political issues. All I'm really trying to get at with this thread is this touchiness people have when it comes to Islam that I find they don't seem to have with Christianity. That's all *shrug*
Quote from: "Jorjor"I can't be the only one annoyed by this. As a liberal myself, I'm of at a loss as to why liberals(particularly liberal theists) are so quick to jump to the defense of islam. Especially considering islam is the farthest thing from "liberal"(anti-women, anti-gay, anti-free speech, anti-tolerance for non-muslims)
Pretty easy question to answer. Liberalism is one of the main champions of multiculturalism, and critics of ethnocentrism. It's hard to reconcile multiculturalism and criticism of another culture/religion, you know... since they're exact opposites. Liberals look at criticism for Islam as ethnocentrism by default, regardless of the truth-value of the criticism.
For most people that don't know enough about Islam to criticize it, the charge of ethnocentrism holds true... so it's become convention. Look at the reaction of the left after 9/11... immediately begin apologizing for "non-extremist" Muslims. I don't spend any energy defending the rest of Christianity when Westboro protests a funeral.
Thus, liberalism is philosophically incapable of defending itself (or our nation) from Islam. Have a look at the UK, and listen to some of Pat Condell's videos and you'll see exactly where the United States is headed as long as we continue to handle Muslims with kid gloves.
http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell (http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell)
I think his videos are a great first hand source, and a valuable perspective from a rational atheist Brit.
QuoteI don't spend any energy defending the rest of Christianity when Westboro protests a funeral.
That's because when Westboro protests a funeral, angry rednecks don't hang any random innocent christians they can get their hands on.
If I lived in the middle east, I'd defend non-extremist christians as well, because they're a minority and thus at a great danger of being killed by dumbfucks.
But I already explained that.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteI don't spend any energy defending the rest of Christianity when Westboro protests a funeral.
That's because when Westboro protests a funeral, angry rednecks don't hang any random innocent christians they can get their hands on.
If I lived in the middle east, I'd defend non-extremist christians as well, because they're a minority and thus at a great danger of being killed by dumbfucks.
But I already explained that.
This. And it touches on this...
QuoteThus, liberalism is philosophically incapable of defending itself (or our nation) from Islam. Have a look at the UK, and listen to some of Pat Condell's videos and you'll see exactly where the United States is headed as long as we continue to handle Muslims with kid gloves.
What, a first world nation that provides its people with medical care and doesn't shut down because a minority side didn't get its way? Britain sounds terrible...
4.8% of the total population is not threatening the English way of life as they know it. They shut down parts of town and keep the law from working and enforce their own law. You know who else does that? Blacks, Latinos and Whites (at least in the U.S.). You have ghettos in inner-cities where the police don't like to go because there is a good chance they will get shot. You have barrios where, if you insult the wrong person, they will find your body in the park with multiple stab wounds, pieces of your body cut off and blunt trauma all over. And you have areas where if you aren't a W.A.S.P. or straight or Christian you will have your property vandalized, your business boycotted and occasionally an idiot walk into your temple and open fire because, "You look Muslim." (even though you were Sikh).
Yet no one mainstream argues anymore that black gangsters are one of the biggest threats to America, even though their numbers are expanding as more and more African Americans are forced into poverty, because it is no longer the "in thing" to be against blacks.
Fewer people nowadays cry about the Latino immigration and of cartels coming across causing chaos, but the amount of violence is at least the same if not worse. Mostly it is just your crazy uncle or ultra-conservatives, because it is no longer the "in thing" to be afraid of Latinos.
And finally no one speaks a word of all the white crimes... the white crimes that make up the disgusting, overwhelming majority of racially, politically and religious violence in this country, because it is not the "in thing".
Wake up, it's all bullshit. They want you to hate the "other guys" so that they can continue to fuck everyone in the ass and have you turn a blind eye to it. Communists, blacks, Latinos, Muslims... it is all a load of fear mongering bullshit to keep people complacent to the REAL people fucking them over, the people who cry out how these threats are going to be the end of civilization "any day now".
Well, the Communists, the Latinos and the blacks all failed to destroy my way of life, and I think the Muslims will too. Sorry.
A wild pack of libtards appear!
Quote from: "lumpymunk"A wild pack of libtards appear!
Awww, what's the matter, run out of arguments for your pathetic position? :)
Why argue? Making points would be like throwing fastballs at a catcher with no mitt.
:rollin:
Good to hear that you're conceding the discussion, then :rolleyes:
Anyone who uses the term "libtard," is, by default, a fucking idiot.
Anyone that cites Daily Kos pundits as "scholarly articles" is intellectually bankrupt and can be dismissed without effort.
Quote from: "lumpymunk"Anyone that cites Daily Kos pundits as "scholarly articles" is intellectually bankrupt and can be dismissed without effort.
Then why are you responding to my post? Grow the fuck up.
Quote from: "lumpymunk"Anyone that cites Daily Kos pundits as "scholarly articles" is intellectually bankrupt and can be dismissed without effort.
Please, use more big words and pseudo-intellectual prose. At all costs, do
not try to make actual arguments, or you'll run the risk of looking intelligent. Wouldn't want that, now, would you?
Quote from: "Jorjor"I'm not sure I agree that criticizing Islam would give ammo to the opressors. If anything, dismantling their religion give them nothing to hide behind.
I'm sure we could make a whole nother thread discussing the underlying socioecomic, political issues. All I'm really trying to get at with this thread is this touchiness people have when it comes to Islam that I find they don't seem to have with Christianity. That's all *shrug*
Islam does have blasphemy laws, the death of Salman Taseer shows it is considered blasphemy to even oppose these blasphemy laws,Islam does not tolerate critics and they chop your head off for that in Saudi Arabia and hang you in Iran, moderate Indonesia only throws people in jail and Fazil Say from Turkey got a suspended jail term.
Salman Rushdie had a fatwa calling for his death over a book,Theo Van Gogh was killed over a movie and we saw death and destruction from cartoons.
Why an atheist would defend a belief that persecutes people for thought crimes is beyond my comprehension.
Pretending there are no problems with Islam will not force muslims into resolving the numerous human rights problems resulting from the Islamic delusion, criticism along with ridicule is what is needed and long overdue.
There are 7 countries that have the death penalty for atheism, all 7 have Islam as the state religion, why leftist atheists defend a belief that executes people for the crime of atheism in 2013 is something i cannot explain.
The muslims who flee from the political,social,economic and moral failures of Islamic countries still come with Islam because they fail to recognise it is Islam that explains these political,social,economic and moral failures.
I dont know any non muslims who have read the Quran,hadith and biography of Muhammad who will defend Islam,only those who are ignorant about Islam seem keen to defend it.
QuoteWhy an atheist would defend a belief that persecutes people for thought crimes is beyond my comprehension.
Me neither. I've yet to find any that would do that would, though. The only people I know who "defend Islam" only defend innocent moderate muslims from horrible things that people want to do to them even though they're not involved with them.
QuoteWhy an atheist would defend a belief that persecutes people for thought crimes is beyond my comprehension.
We don't, we are able however to separate belief from believer amongst other things.
Quote from: "Plu"Me neither. I've yet to find any that would do that would, though. The only people I know who "defend Islam" only defend innocent moderate muslims from horrible things that people want to do to them even though they're not involved with them.
I'm pretty sure no one here condones harassement or discrimination against moderate muslims. Fundie Christians might, since they have their own agendas to push. I certainly don't, so we're already on the same page there.
Quote from: "Shiranu"We don't, we are able however to separate belief from believer amongst other things.
I think people who get their panties in a bunch when people criticize Islam (ISLAM not Muslims) are the ones who can't seem to seperate the two.
Quote from: "baronvonrort"The kids of those chechen immigrants appeared to fit in real well, untill they let off a few bombs in Boston.
The family immigrated in 2002, Tamerlan Tsarnaev would have been fifteen, a little late for Americanization. Sorry if I somehow gave the impression that it's an instantaneous process that wipes out a decade or more of previous acculturation. I was thinking of the children of immigrant parents who were born here or arrived as small children. As I've worked with all ages of immigrant children, I suppose I should have been more explicit that it's more difficult for children over seven or eight to acculturate, and much more difficult for children over 13...though the vast, vast, vast majority seem to never turn into bombers; not even the adults.
Really, the issue of whether you should treat several million people as second class citizens for the crimes of a few is matter of your own view of what's right, and what is likely to result in the least harm for everyone in the long run.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "Jorjor"I think people who get their panties in a bunch when people criticize Islam (ISLAM not Muslims) are the ones who can't seem to seperate the two.
"Liberals loooooovvvee Islam" is not a discussion title someone who can separate the two would post.
Yes, I did kind of want it to be an attention grabber, lol :lol: If you went back and read my original post rather than focusing so much energy on the title, I think you'd have a better idea of what I'm saying.
I didn't see much difference between the title and the post. They basically scream the exact same thing; inability to seperate the people from the faith.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Quote from: "lumpymunk"Anyone that cites Daily Kos pundits as "scholarly articles" is intellectually bankrupt and can be dismissed without effort.
Then why are you responding to my post? Grow the fuck up.
lol Scholarly approach.
I am not a liberal, but in a brief defense of them, they do not love Islam. They do, however, believe that everyone should be free to practice their beliefs without persecution or deportation. Just because you have seen a few dense people bend over backwards for Islam or Muslims does not mean you should label all liberals as dense people that are willing to submit to Islam, because that isn't true. Islam is a superstitious dogmatic old faith that in my view does not belong in the 21st century. But that does not mean it is right to hurt or insult Muslims just because a religion they inherited has objectionable material in it.
I'm fairly liberal, and in America at the very least I find myself kind of...what's the word?...sympathetic towards much of the Muslim community. Don't get me wrong. I don't think much of the religion, but the individual people I am generally nicer to in comparison to devout Christians. Not that I'm really mean to Christians, but I can be sarcastic at times and I've criticized their religion to their face, and I've only done that to a Muslim once.
Part of it is that I simply don't have to deal with them as much. Even in Michigan, where the concentration of Muslims is higher in Genessee County and Dearborn, they are a minority. Many also don't want to be portrayed as forcing their religion on others.
That means no Muslims standing outside my campus handing Koran's to people. That means no Muslims handing me tracts saying I'll burn if I don't convert. Generally, they seem to be so busy playing damage control for the psychos in third world countries that they don't have time to be pushy or annoying like a member of the Christian Right.
Speaking of which, Muslims in America generally understand that the Christian Right has less than zero respect for them. All one has to do is look at the average social conservative idiot talking "sharia law" and "Obama the secret Muslim" or Bryan Fischer saying "Islam isn't protected by the 1st Amendment" to understand that. which means most American Muslims vote for Democrats or support the Democrat, which more importantly means they don't vote for Republicans. Once again, it makes me go easy on them.
Quote from: "Plu"I didn't see much difference between the title and the post. They basically scream the exact same thing; inability to seperate the people from the faith.
Ok... perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough from the get-go.
All I was trying to say in my original post is that at least from my obeservation, there always seems to be more of an uproar when someone either criticizes or pokes fun at ISLAM(particularly among the left) then there is when people do the same to Christianity. (For example, South Park has a crapload of episodes that poke fun at Jesus, people don't bat an eyelid. Yet a couple episodes depicting the prophet Muhammed get plucked off the air or censored. People laugh when Bill Maher makes a Christian joke, but get a bit uncomfotable when he does the same with Islam) I was simply asking if other people had noticed the same thing and why they thought that was.
It has nothing to do with persecuting,harassing, or taking away the rights of Muslims who live in this country peacefully, so how this whole thing suddenly turned into "Jorjor hates Muslims and wants them all to burn" I have no clue. PLEASE point to
one post in my thread saying that I think that kind of thing okay......
That's because for the most part, when we (most of us coming from Western countries) criticize Christianity, we're criticizing an aspect of "our" culture, rather than "someone else's" culture. It's kind of like the difference between joking about one's own flaws and joking about someone else's.
My big problem is with the definition of 'Liberal'. The US uses the term like no other country does. I consider myself a liberal because I am pro individual rights. In the USA Liberal is what we in the rest of world call 'social democrats'. ie like Big Government, Group rights rather than individual rights, speech controls, equality of outcome rather than oppurtunity and last , but not least, an obsession with race and multiculturalism.
I generally despise ideologues because they lie constantly and are prepared to sacrifice any freedom on their need to push their agenda first. Social democrats are a mild form of ideologue but idealogues none the less.
I don;t likle Islam for many reasons. the first is that they behave like the Christian right only far far worse and frankly any form of equivalence is fatous. to compare Salafists to the Westboro baptist church is a joke. Salafist crucify people, they murder and torture children, they butcher gay people, Christians,Jews and the 'wront sort of Muslims.
Westboro just shout 'god hates fags' and pickets Funerals. If you think they have any sort of equivalnce then you are a complete ideological idiot. In fact Westboro show the same level of tolerance as 'moderate Muslims'. Moderate Muslims 'hate fags', Moderate Muslims 'hate jews' Moderate Muslims want Muslims to have special rights. In 'Moderate Muslim' Malaysia where the hate Al Queda Muslims still get special rights. They are entitled to an extra day off work, to get into Univeisty with very poor grades, they will pass as doctors even if they fail the tests. They ban Christians from using 'Allah' as a word for 'god' even though Allah is the word for God in Christian societies right through the middle east.
If White people behaved like Muslims social democrats would hate them The reason Social democrats defend Muslims is because most of them have brown skins and their obsession with 'anti racism' blinds them to everything else.
In the UK, France, The Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia Muslims have already started attacking the Majority population. They demand (and get) all manner of special rights. In the UK at the moment Universities are allowing segregation of sexes to appease Muslims. In Sweden they commit almost all rape but of course the state media won;t report iot because... Muslims are special. the same in Norway. In the UK Muslim gangs in well over 10 different towns operated Gangs that sexually exploited English girls. It was known about by the Police and Social workers but they turned a blind eye because they would be accused of racism by...social democrats. It was only because a TV program exposed them and forced the government to act was their any arrests. there are laws in the UK about female genital mutilation but there has never been a prosecution because it is 'racist' to prosecute Muslims.
So yes there is an obsession with Muslims from the left. they give them special rights that they give to no one else.
Good post sab! You are going to make the forum a more interesting place to be. I'm all for individualism. Solitary
Quote from: "sab"The reason Social democrats defend Muslims is because most of them have brown skins and their obsession with 'anti racism' blinds them to everything else.
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It might be a good idea to actually read the thread.
:popcorn: :-k Solitary
Quote from: "Hydra009"Quote from: "sab"The reason Social democrats defend Muslims is because most of them have brown skins and their obsession with 'anti racism' blinds them to everything else.
[ Image (//http://replygif.net/i/111.gif) ]
It might be a good idea to actually read the thread.
Could you explain?
I'm not afraid of Muslims. I'm not afraid of being called a liberal, even though it's inapt in my case. I think anyone who thinks terrorists are representative of 1.6 billion Muslims is not only Islamophobic but also terminally stupid.
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"While the radicals only make up about 10% of Muslims in the world, there are more than 10 Muslims living near me.
Source for this number, please -- and define "radical" while you're at it.
Quote from: "sab"Could you explain?
I suppose I'll have to link (//http://www.atheistforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=965812#p965812) you to get you to take a look. :-|
QuoteI don;t likle Islam for many reasons. the first is that they behave like the Christian right only far far worse and frankly any form of equivalence is fatous. to compare Salafists to the Westboro baptist church is a joke. Salafist crucify people, they murder and torture children, they butcher gay people, Christians,Jews and the 'wront sort of Muslims.
They do this in the U.S.? What numbers do you have of that happening in the Western world?
You are comparing "radicals" in a 1st world nation to radicals in a developing nation. It would be more fair for you to compare Salafists to Akhwat Akwop or the Africans who burn witches still. The common theme here is socio-economics, not race or religion.
QuoteIf White people behaved like Muslims social democrats would hate them The reason Social democrats defend Muslims is because most of them have brown skins and their obsession with 'anti racism' blinds them to everything else.
I hate the way radical Muslims act in the West, so I guess I am racist. The thing is I don't hate every Muslim in the West and believe they are all potential terrorists who want to kill me and need to be spied on or deported simply because of their social backgrounds.
Muslims have utterly ripped apart my motherland. We are one of the world oldest christian nations but it is suffering the very worst Islam can throw at us.
You know what? I hate Muslims. I hate the way the think, the way the act, their god, and their quaran.
I know that makes me racist and I know that makes me a bigot. And I admit that propaganda might have changed me, who knows. But for years I defended them because I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt
No longer; now they are lumped up there with bible thumpers and the "you can't get pregnant from rape" guy in terms of how much I disdain them.
Take it as you like, but I needed rant for a moment
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"You know what? I hate Muslims. I hate the way the think, the way the act, their god, and their quaran.
I know that makes me racist and I know that makes me a bigot. And I admit that propaganda might have changed me, who knows. But for years I defended them because I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt
No longer; now they are lumped up there with bible thumpers and the "you can't get pregnant from rape" guy in terms of how much I disdain them.
Take it as you like, but I needed rant for a moment
You never should have had that distinction in the first place. Muslim or Christian, Hindu or Jainist, all religions delude the followers into a cult-like mentality and Muslims are
not, and
never were an exception to that. To be honest if a "liberal" ever thought that they were an exception to that than they might have a few screws that are loose in their heads.
I make it a point to differentiate the people from their religion. In my experience I've met christians, muslims, and jews who were just fine people. And I have also met atheists who were jerks. So, people come in all stripes. There are bad apples everywhere. Just beware.
It's startling how little reason is present in this thread. Here I thought atheists were logical folk.
Stupid me, this thread is clear evidence of my error.
By the way, disliking
Muslims is not
racist because
Muslims are not a
race. Show me scientific evidence that Muslims constitute a biological race and I will agree with you that disliking Muslims is racist. Is it bigoted, hateful, awful, crude? Yes. Racist? Nope.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"It's startling how little reason is present in this thread. Here I thought atheists were logical folk.
Stupid me, this thread is clear evidence of my error.
It is a leap of faith in itself to assume that Atheists are logical just because they refer to themselves as Atheists. Human beings tend to hang on to any type of dogma they can, and there is no evidence to suggest that just because an Atheist sheds religious dogma they will not move on to dogma of another kind.
edited -double post
So Logical must mean "give special treatment to anyone who isn't white according to the ideology of multiculturalism?
I am not 'white'. I came to the UK as a refugee in the 1970s. The UK gave my mother and my family (My father was murdered by Marxists) everything. A House, money to live on, medical care, education right until the end of university and made us British citizens. I am very grateful to the British people.
Muslims arrived, live in Ghettos and hate the British. They murder their daughters if they go out with British boys (but turn a blind eye to Muslim men who rape British women). Muslims endlessly go on about Jews and how evil whites are
This is worth reading
logs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100250831/laws-against-inciting-hatred-funny-how-an-islamist-hate-preacher-is-never-prosecuted/?fb
Quote from: "frosty"By the way, disliking Muslims is not racist because Muslims are not a race. Show me scientific evidence that Muslims constitute a biological race and I will agree with you that disliking Muslims is racist. Is it bigoted, hateful, awful, crude? Yes. Racist? Nope.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"It's startling how little reason is present in this thread. Here I thought atheists were logical folk.
Stupid me, this thread is clear evidence of my error.
It is a leap of faith in itself to assume that Atheists are logical just because they refer to themselves as Atheists. Human beings tend to hang on to any type of dogma they can, and there is no evidence to suggest that just because an Atheist sheds religious dogma they will not move on to dogma of another kind.
I warn atheists all the time not to say things like "When we get into the majority we will treat you better". Evolution does not bear out any label being the inventor of morality or compassion. "Atheist" is not a moral code, it is merely the "off" position on one claim.
I have run into atheists who simply say "there is no god", but don't read Hitchens or Dawkins or know much about science. And this new trend in the UK with "atheist churches" bothers me. I do not want to see the label turned into written moral dogma.
I am fine with a natural and evolutionary and psychological view of human behavior, but I am not fine with any human claiming that a label automatically makes them immune from what our species has always done.
We are humans first and have always been capable of both compassion and cruelty.
Quote from: "sab"So Logical must mean "give special treatment to anyone who isn't white according to the ideology of multiculturalism?
I am not 'white'. I came to the UK as a refugee in the 1970s. The UK gave my mother and my family (My father was murdered by Marxists) everything. A House, money to live on, medical care, education right until the end of university and made us British citizens. I am very grateful to the British people.
Muslims arrived, live in Ghettos and hate the British. They murder their daughters if they go out with British boys (but turn a blind eye to Muslim men who rape British women). Muslims endlessly go on about Jews and how evil whites are
Wow. All Muslims do that? I had no idea.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Wow. All Muslims do that? I had no idea.
I', sure that makes you feel very clever but the reality is ..pretty much yes.
When I say Muslims I don;t mean 'people of descent from Muslim countries I mean people who profess Islam. In a recent poll in the UK every Muslim said they thought that Homosexuality was morally wrong. Yes I am sure that you could find Muslims who claim to beleive othewrise -especially if they are politicians but as a Group Muslims in the Uk are a backwards oppressive force.
I am from a Christian background but I am certainly not a Christian.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"It's startling how little reason is present in this thread. Here I thought atheists were logical folk.
Stupid me, this thread is clear evidence of my error.
More like evidence that you are not immune to making the same sort of error when the topic is atheists. You've had your stereotype of us dinged and now you're mad because we didn't all match your expectations. I hesitate to presume the irony is unconscious?
Quote from: "sab"Quote from: "Jmpty"Wow. All Muslims do that? I had no idea.
I', sure that makes you feel very clever but the reality is ..pretty much yes.
When I say Muslims I don;t mean 'people of descent from Muslim countries I mean people who profess Islam. In a recent poll in the UK every Muslim said they thought that Homosexuality was morally wrong. Yes I am sure that you could find Muslims who claim to beleive othewrise -especially if they are politicians but as a Group Muslims in the Uk are a backwards oppressive force.
I am from a Christian background but I am certainly not a Christian.
Wow. You are much more stupid than I thought, and I already had a pretty low opinion of you.
Quote from: "frosty"It is a leap of faith in itself to assume that Atheists are logical just because they refer to themselves as Atheists. Human beings tend to hang on to any type of dogma they can, and there is no evidence to suggest that just because an Atheist sheds religious dogma they will not move on to dogma of another kind.
No, it has nothing to do with faith. It was instead a warrantless assumption, and no faith was involved in making it.
Thanks for trying to help, though.
Quote from: "sab"So Logical must mean "give special treatment to anyone who isn't white according to the ideology of multiculturalism?
On the assumption this is directed at me, no, that's not what I said at all.
Sure makes for a nice straw-man, though.
Logical, in this context, means "applying reason to an issue, rather than succumbing to fallacious thinking."
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"More like evidence that you are not immune to making the same sort of error when the topic is atheists. You've had your stereotype of us dinged and now you're mad because we didn't all match your expectations. I hesitate to presume the irony is unconscious?
"Mad"? Not hardly. Disappointed, in myself for succumbing to assumptions, and in the paucity of critical thinking present in this thread. That's okay, I'll live.
I'm not sure why you think I'm angry, though.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "frosty"It is a leap of faith in itself to assume that Atheists are logical just because they refer to themselves as Atheists. Human beings tend to hang on to any type of dogma they can, and there is no evidence to suggest that just because an Atheist sheds religious dogma they will not move on to dogma of another kind.
No, it has nothing to do with faith. It was instead a warrantless assumption, and no faith was involved in making it.
Thanks for trying to help, though.
A leap of faith in the sense that you are trusting that a certain type of people will meet your preconceived expectations of how they should be without actually knowing every single one of them. Obviously, this time they did not according to you. "Faith" has other definitions instead of one strict meaning pertaining to religion. But you certainly know what you think better than I do so as long as everything is straightened out then I guess everything is good.
And I sure hope you don't think that me denying that Muslims are a race constitutes part of your disappointment. I have no proof you think that so far at all, but if anybody at all thinks that than they are the ones in need of a lesson in logic.
Quote from: "Jmpty"Quote from: "sab"Quote from: "Jmpty"Wow. All Muslims do that? I had no idea.
I', sure that makes you feel very clever but the reality is ..pretty much yes.
When I say Muslims I don;t mean 'people of descent from Muslim countries I mean people who profess Islam. In a recent poll in the UK every Muslim said they thought that Homosexuality was morally wrong. Yes I am sure that you could find Muslims who claim to beleive othewrise -especially if they are politicians but as a Group Muslims in the Uk are a backwards oppressive force.
I am from a Christian background but I am certainly not a Christian.
Wow. You are much more stupid than I thought, and I already had a pretty low opinion of you.
What a great argument! :rollin:
Wow. You are much more stupid than I thought, and I already had a pretty low opinion of you.[/quote]
What a great argument! :rollin:[/quote]
It's not an argument, it's an opinion. I have known, and called friend, many Muslims over the years, from Iran, Pakistan, and Somalia, to name a few. None of them tried to kill me, or convert me, or change me in any way. They are just people trying to live their lives, just like the vast majority of Christians. My opinions regarding Muslims are based on personal experience, how about yours?
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "Mister Agenda"More like evidence that you are not immune to making the same sort of error when the topic is atheists. You've had your stereotype of us dinged and now you're mad because we didn't all match your expectations. I hesitate to presume the irony is unconscious?
"Mad"? Not hardly. Disappointed, in myself for succumbing to assumptions, and in the paucity of critical thinking present in this thread. That's okay, I'll live.
I'm not sure why you think I'm angry, though.
I did leave an out for you to reveal you were making some kind of point by being ironic. Lacking that, your level of whining seems a little high for mild disappointment. I'll take your word that this is your normal level, though.
Quote from: "frosty"A leap of faith in the sense that you are trusting that a certain type of people will meet your preconceived expectations of how they should be without actually knowing every single one of them. Obviously, this time they did not according to you. "Faith" has other definitions instead of one strict meaning pertaining to religion. But you certainly know what you think better than I do so as long as everything is straightened out then I guess everything is good.
It's cool. In a discussion about religion, the context lends the word "faith" a specific connotation, one that I don't feel. I had and have no faith that atheists are inherently more rational, but rather, it's been my experience that they tend to be. Obviously a generalization, the shortcomings of which are plainly apparent here.
Quote from: "frosty"And I sure hope you don't think that me denying that Muslims are a race constitutes part of your disappointment. I have no proof you think that so far at all, but if anybody at all thinks that than they are the ones in need of a lesson in logic.
No, I agree with your point, completely.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"I did leave an out for you to reveal you were making some kind of point by being ironic. Lacking that, your level of whining seems a little high for mild disappointment. I'll take your word that this is your normal level, though.
Interesting stuff. I wasn't being ironic, but as I said, fell victim to my own generalization. I'm the kind of person who admits my mistakes, y'know?
I understand earnestness doesn't go over well online, and that there are plenty who like to flog someone for admitting an error,for whatever reasons they have of their own.
I'm not sure why you think admitting this mistake is "whining". I'll do you the favor of not imputing this or that emotion to your posts here, though.
Quote from: "Jorjor"I can't be the only one annoyed by this. As a liberal myself, I'm of at a loss as to why liberals(particularly liberal theists) are so quick to jump to the defense of islam. Especially considering islam is the farthest thing from "liberal"(anti-women, anti-gay, anti-free speech, anti-tolerance for non-muslims)
We love to bash on Christianity, as we should be doing, don't get me wrong. Yet, no one can criticize islam without being labeled an "islamaphobic" bigot :roll: Why??
There are a wide range of possible explanations from plausible to conspiratorial. It would be unfair to say all the left, but I think the extreme far left certainly hates the west, it sees it as imperialistic, capitalistic, and sides with anyone who could be its enemy and challenge it. I honestly think that is the case with Galloway or Chomsky or some of the folks over at the Atheism+ forum. They're loonie toons. Any conflict with Islam, blame the west. Terrorism and 9/11? Blame western imperialism and ignore the doctrine of jihad completely. Iranian Sharia regime? Western imperialism. I think these people are malicious, they can't possibly be this one-sided and have so much venom for the civilization that protects their right to speak their minds. Chomsky is certainly not a stupid person, he's just an ideologue with an agenda.
A lot of people on the left have a warped view of things. They often view issues through the lens of privileged vs. under-privileged, powerful vs. powerless rather than just take a cold hard look at what is right or wrong. They see Christianity as privileged and Islam as persecuted and under-privileged (also a lot of Muslims tend to be non-white), so naturally they soften up on Islam and willfully ignore its illiberal nature. I think they're naive and useful idiots. Take for example the progressive Majority Report. I doubt they would have Pat Robertson on, but they had no problem having Reza Aslan on, the guy is a lying apologist. At least Pat never called for a "third intifada" on twitter.
For the love of...
Quote from: "VladK"A lot of people on the left have a warped view of things. They often view issues through the lens of privileged vs. under-privileged, powerful vs. powerless rather than just take a cold hard look at what is right or wrong. They see Christianity as privileged and Islam as persecuted and under-privileged (also a lot of Muslims tend to be non-white), so naturally they soften up on Islam and willfully ignore its illiberal nature. I think they're naive and useful idiots. Take for example the progressive Majority Report. I doubt they would have Pat Robertson on, but they had no problem having Reza Aslan on, the guy is a lying apologist. At least Pat never called for a "third intifada" on twitter.
:roll:
Keep believing what Fox and Limbaugh feed you, and see how it works out for you.
Quote from: "Shiranu"For the love of...
Well-put.
> I doubt they would have Pat Robertson on...
I suspect Rachel Maddow would love to have Pat Robertson on. She'd destroy him.
Frank
Quote from: "Atheon"Quote from: "VladK"A lot of people on the left have a warped view of things. They often view issues through the lens of privileged vs. under-privileged, powerful vs. powerless rather than just take a cold hard look at what is right or wrong. They see Christianity as privileged and Islam as persecuted and under-privileged (also a lot of Muslims tend to be non-white), so naturally they soften up on Islam and willfully ignore its illiberal nature. I think they're naive and useful idiots. Take for example the progressive Majority Report. I doubt they would have Pat Robertson on, but they had no problem having Reza Aslan on, the guy is a lying apologist. At least Pat never called for a "third intifada" on twitter.
:roll:
Keep believing what Fox and Limbaugh feed you, and see how it works out for you.
https://twitter.com/rezaaslan/status/306164094132682752 (https://twitter.com/rezaaslan/status/306164094132682752)
So much for moderate Reza.