http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/mus ... st-groups/ (http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/)
QuoteMore than two years after the death of Osama bin Laden, concern about Islamic extremism remains widespread among Muslims from South Asia to the Middle East to sub-Saharan Africa. Across 11 Muslim publics surveyed by the Pew Research Center, a median of 67% say they are somewhat or very concerned about Islamic extremism. In five countries – Pakistan, Jordan, Tunisia, Turkey and Indonesia – Muslim worries about extremism have increased in the past year.
EXTREM18Against this backdrop, extremist groups, including al Qaeda, garner little popular support. Even before his death in 2011, confidence in al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden had plummeted among many Muslims. Today, al Qaeda is widely reviled, with a median of 57% across the 11 Muslims publics surveyed saying they have an unfavorable opinion of the terrorist organization that launched the twin attacks on New York City and Washington, DC more than a decade ago.
The Taliban, who once shared Afghanistan as a base of operation with al Qaeda, are viewed negatively by a median of 51% of Muslims in the countries polled. Hezbollah and Hamas fare little better. Hezbollah, in particular, has seen its support slip in key Middle Eastern countries, including a 38 percentage point drop in favorable views among Egyptian Muslims since 2007.
In many of the countries surveyed, clear majorities of Muslims oppose violence in the name of Islam. Indeed, about three-quarters or more in Pakistan (89%), Indonesia (81%), Nigeria (78%) and Tunisia (77%), say suicide bombings or other acts of violence that target civilians are never justified. And although substantial percentages in some countries do think suicide bombing is often or sometimes justified – including a 62%-majority of Palestinian Muslims, overall support for violence in the name of Islam has declined among Muslim publics during the past decade.
These are among the key findings from a survey of 11 Muslim publics conducted by the Pew Research Center from March 3 to April 7, 2013. Face-to-face interviews were conducted with 8,989 Muslims in Egypt, Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Malaysia, Nigeria, Pakistan, the Palestinian territories, Senegal, Tunisia and Turkey. The survey also finds that Nigerian Muslims overwhelmingly oppose Boko Haram, the extremist movement at the center of a violent uprising in northern Nigeria. One of Boko Haram's stated aims is to establish sharia, or Islamic law, as the official law of the land. Nigerian Muslims are divided on whether their country's laws should closely follow the teachings of the Quran.
It should be obvious to even the casual observer that extreme behavior does not lead to positive gains. It is no less true of fundies, Tea Party types in the US that force their will on the rank and file citizens. Most people tend to be moderate, fair minded people. Radicalism in the end does not improve any situation, but makes it worse.
On the one hand, this is fairly comforting. I really dislike Islamic radicals. Then again, on the other hand, I'm kind of scared that the world's governments have like zero checks on their ability to control currency and wage war. What is there to serve as a counterpoint?
Of course it is unpopular among them - they actually have to live with it. There are many different enabling factors as well as incubators for Islamic extremism I don't want to get into here right now but even though many Muslims everywhere are different, I think political activist groups are starting to see where terrorism really gets them, which is absolutely nowhere. It is more productive for your countrymen to engage in a process and be in dialogue with people rather than strap on a vest and blow things up. This is elementary logic, and many religious activist groups are starting to follow this path and are benefiting greatly from it.
I've also noticed that the people that hate Sharia law the most are the ones that have had to live through it and suffer because of it. It's easy like I saw once in a protest on TV for some girl in the U.S. with a sparkling hijab and a cool iPhone to say "omg we want sharia!!!" but it is quite different for her, or any other westernized Muslim to go and live through it. It still does irritate me somewhat though when I see them in western nations advocating Sharia but there is not much that can be done about that.
(//http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/195/868/Kq.jpg)
Someone should tell this to Sam Harris.
I think Sam Harris knows. While it is true, most Muslims are not extremists nor do they outwardly support extremists, if 10% are extremists, that means there is about 100,000,000 extremists Muslims. Or maybe only 5% are extremists, meaning then there are 50,000,000 extremists.
I'm sorry, but those numbers still seem significant to me. As they no doubt seem significant to Sam Harris, and others.
I don't know bout any of you but 57% don't exactly get me all buttery..
I'd like to see their sample, specifically demographics.
'Islam' is not homogenous, and various sects have varying views.
EDIT: found a breakdown of the methodology at the bottom but couldn't read anything aside multi-stage cluster sample, indicating no question on sect of Islam.
But... I thought the average Muslim was smiling on the side line when their radical brothers committed crimes!
My whole life is a lie :.
:roll:
Quote from: "Shiranu"But... I thought the average Muslim was smiling on the side line when their radical brothers committed crimes!
My whole life is a lie :.
:roll:
While I have indeed seen so called "typical" Muslims that live a storybook western lifestyle, and then with the flip of a switch they deviously support acts of violence in the name of Islam, I do not think it's fair to say that all Muslims are like that. Images can be deceiving, and I noticed this weird flip-flop some Muslims do especially online where they act moderate and then all of a sudden endorse extremism. I am very skeptical of such things when they happen. And I have found a few times that people pretend to be Muslims and do that to scare people.
Of course the point about the sects is also valid. I guess what irritates me also about the whole Sharia issue is that we as a society have our own issues here, and for people to bring a foreign way of life into the west which diametrically opposes our core values is ludicrous. Yes, it may sound bigoted to say this (depending on how you perceive my statement), but if Muslims living in the west want true Sharia law, they are free to move to the various Sharia paradises that are currently festering on planet Earth.
The trouble is how do you define extremism, to some people Islamic extremism is wanting to blow you to smithereens and then dismember your corpse and put your head on a spike, personally I think it's extreme to want to imprison or hurt people for offending your religious sensibilities, or to want to punish people for being gay, if you ran a global Muslim survey on that the results would be a lot more disturbing.
My hope is that Muslims can't miss the fact that radical behavior is ultimately self defeating. Throwing acid in the face of a pretty girl on the street does not condone a loving response. Living a life of self sacrifice is harder when the availability of a more hedonistic and pleasure centered one is near at hand.
I'm with Shir. This was a survey that asked Muslims some questions (never mind that pollsters can determine the outcome by the wording of the questions) - but I'm sure that it was non-Muslims asking the questions, so most Muslims would give the answers they wanted Christians to believe about Islam.
Let's see a survey about what percentage of Muslims in each Muslim society cheer when an announcement of violence against non-Muslims is announced. That's a more honest response.
Quote from: "aitm"I don't know bout any of you but 57% don't exactly get me all buttery..
The numbers % wise who agree with the death penalty for apostasy are a bit of a concern, apostasy and blasphemy laws are what we should highlight, if you cannot leave it or criticise it how can you reform it.
I wish they would show that they object to the actions of the extremists with more then just token gestures, that would certainly be very helpful in clearing up some misconceptions.
Unfortunately, in the mean time there will continue to be doubts.
There is also the matter of archaic laws that exist in a number of Muslim states; (and matters such as using the educational system to teach children to hate Jews, non-Muslims)
It would seem that in these places the moderates, despite no doubt being the majority, do not seem to be the ones in power.
There are probably a huge percentage of them that would want to hang somebody for insulting their religion. But majority of human population can not directly kill a human being. Same thing for musl!ms.
I know alot of people like these. They say US of A is out to get them, jehad is good and blasphemers must be hung. yet they don't pray, they watch pornos and enjoy all those immoral american movies. O and look at pretty girls
how far do you go before you can be called extremist?
Make your daughter understand that she must wear a burqa, not go out side without a male family member and forcibly convince her to marry a man of their choice even though she does not like him nor is she ready. Not many musl!ms will call this extreme.
Quote from: "CloneKai"There are probably a huge percentage of them that would want to hang somebody for insulting their religion. But majority of human population can not directly kill a human being. Same thing for musl!ms.
I know alot of people like these. They say US of A is out to get them, jehad is good and blasphemers must be hung. yet they don't pray, they watch pornos and enjoy all those immoral american movies. O and look at pretty girls
how far do you go before you can be called extremist?
Make your daughter understand that she must wear a burqa, not go out side without a male family member and forcibly convince her to marry a man of their choice even though she does not like him nor is she ready. Not many musl!ms will call this extreme.
This is not exclusive to Muslims though. In fact, I would say the element of religious, in-your-face hypocrisy is prevalent with all uptight, dogmatic religions on the planet. Christianity and Islam host a large mass of believers that fall under such a category.
It used to make my blood boil when I saw such things as you described. I treat others how I wish to be treated, I don't commit crimes, I keep to myself, and I try not to judge other people, and then these fucking hypocritical jerkoffs will point their fingers at me and judge me as a stereotypical Atheistic disbeliever that is rotten when they don't even know me. They don't like people judging them based on stereotypes, but them doing the judging? Yep, they can do that, because they think it's
approved by God.People will stop at nothing to convince themselves their beliefs are right and that they are the winners. Hence the reason such people we are talking about even exist in the first place. They want to have their cake and eat it too.
Quote... and forcibly convince her to marry a man of their choice even though she does not like him nor is she ready.
Basically my mom until she was 35 and divorced the husband that was chosen for her. She also thinks women should not be allowed to show any excess flesh.
She is a Christian, and she was pretty normal for where she grew up.
Sexism and forced marriages are not even remotely Muslim exclusive nor is it uncommon in other religions.
Quote from: "frosty"
I agree.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Quote... and forcibly convince her to marry a man of their choice even though she does not like him nor is she ready.
Basically my mom until she was 35 and divorced the husband that was chosen for her. She also thinks women should not be allowed to show any excess flesh.
She is a Christian, and she was pretty normal for where she grew up.
Sexism and forced marriages are not even remotely Muslim exclusive nor is it uncommon in other religions.
Was your mother the parent that forced her children or was she forced herself, or both?
Quote from: "aitm"I don't know bout any of you but 57% don't exactly get me all buttery..
That was my reaction. It strikes me as a rather dismal reflection on Islam.
Until Muslims (or Christians) outright condemn acts of violence, it suggests a level of tolerance for radicalism.
I recall a Christian friend saying one time, "I would never blow up an abortion clinic, but I can sure understand why someone would do it." It's hard to know exactly what such a statement means, but it might suggest a level of tolerance that doesn't disapprove as much as I do. I would guess that this sort of attitude shows up in our own statistics that might be construed as "positive" (something like 75% of all Christians disapprove of blowing up abortion clinics).
In the end such statistical analysis might not tell the whole story. In addition, they can be interpreted with wide latitude. It's hard to know how much statistics actually tell us.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "CloneKai"There are probably a huge percentage of them that would want to hang somebody for insulting their religion. But majority of human population can not directly kill a human being. Same thing for musl!ms.
I know alot of people like these. They say US of A is out to get them, jehad is good and blasphemers must be hung. yet they don't pray, they watch pornos and enjoy all those immoral american movies. O and look at pretty girls
how far do you go before you can be called extremist?
Make your daughter understand that she must wear a burqa, not go out side without a male family member and forcibly convince her to marry a man of their choice even though she does not like him nor is she ready. Not many musl!ms will call this extreme.
I know, right? I mean how can anyone imagine the USA policy is 'out to get them'?! :shock: They are the ones out to get Americans. Well there is American history of the last 5 decades...oh well don't need to go there just the last war USA waged in the ME created a 3 million body count in the last decade, BUT it's just fighting against an ideology! How can they even think USA is against them. And if that doesn't work it's the..err... just a casualty of killing terrorists AND saving the world from these 'vermin' who are in fact killed and being killed because they don't fit into any aspects of common American culture which of course makes them more guilty of existing when they interact with it some way. Christians and Christian fundies with the same profile are just...well Christians. It's a problem when the group of people is non Christian, right? Because that's a 'secular culture'. I mean look how they dress, go around and drink and all, they have a right to do that. Because its 'their' culture. If muslims do that they are hypocrites and how do they dare? This is not their culture and they are primitive, underdeveloped and evil because they can't live like we do! And they are all ugly-stupid creatures, how do they dare to look at our girls!
I am curious, do you think the same thing about western men interested in Asian or eastern women? They are beautiful and I haven't met one western man yet who wouldn't say YESS! to them. Oh wait right, those are muslims we were talking about. Silly me. When muslims do, it's because they are 'evil' and because they think they can use them out of marriage. But when western man do it is not because culturally they benefit that majority of exotic Asian women are from highly patriarchal cultures and inclined to obey men in general. :rolleyes: Ooops, sorry not something we say out loud, right? It must be just because the high level of western culture.
Have you ever occurred to you that western women might be exotic to eastern men, besides their 'evil' intentions decided and accepted as a common trait by almost everyone? I am an eastern woman, western men are highly exotic to me physically or culturally. Sometimes they are repulsive, sometimes they're attractive. Because they are different than what I am used to. And they provoke my interest. This is a simple human condition.
After you are finished with extremism, please try defining irony before making more blanket statements.
Wow! somebody is seriously angry.
How to replay?
first i did not make any blanket statement.
My first para, "probably a huge percentage" believe that blasphemer must be hung. yeah, they probably do. After that i said most human are not murderers and musl!m are the same. Meaning most musl!m are not murderers as well, no matter what they believe.
My second para, i said most musl!m do what they want to do, no matter what they believe in. Also somewhat correct.
About the usa comment. i will tell you about that in my next post. it is kind of funny.
Then i asked what is extremist. I did not give my opinion.
My last para. I saw that happen. The parents truly seems to care for their daughter and thought that was best option.
You know what my problem is? I don't write very well.
You know what your problem is? You get angry very easily. Always the first to jump on somebody. you should enjoy more and get angry less. days will become alot brighter.
O and people in my area normally consider people like you to be western. you won't believe the uproar that happened after Turkish soaps started to appear on our TV channels. Talking about the immorality from the west. :rollin:
drunkenshoe, you said "And they are all ugly-stupid creatures, how do they dare to look at our girls! "
CloneKai was not criticizing that point specifically. He was referring specifically to the hypocrisy of devout religionists in that they cast the finger of judgement towards others yet enjoy all the nasty vices of modern life. Even I thought that was very clear.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "frosty"drunkenshoe, you said "And they are all ugly-stupid creatures, how do they dare to look at our girls! "
CloneKai was not criticizing that point specifically. He was referring specifically to the hypocrisy of devout religionists in that they cast the finger of judgement towards others yet enjoy all the nasty vices of modern life. Even I thought that was very clear.
That's not a point made to critisize. It's written as a sarcastic response to the idiotic statement he made "O and look at pretty girls". Really, how nonsense is that? Is there any group of people who doesn't look or enjoy what they like to a point they can get away with? And when muslims do it, it is hypocrisy. But when christians do it, they are secular. If you cannot see this double standard you really don't see much.
Let me tell you something about 'devout religionist muslims', frosty. They do not look at pretty girls. Or watch porn. If you as an outsider you know a muslim is enjoying western vice, he might be a devout to your standards, but he is not really devout or an extremist. He is just the counterpart of christian families who condemn their children and families enjoying the same things.
I really don't want to start arguing about such a simple point. I have seen plenty of religionists that do such a thing, it's called hypocrisy and a holier-than-thou complex that religionists have these days. Like I said, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Enjoy the fruits of modern life while maintaining their
God approved status. I have seen this all my life, primarily from followers of the three Abrahamic religions. They judge but then get offended when someone sends them some return fire, because someone as special as them in their own mind should never be insulted. I am
not talking about only Muslims here either.
There is really not much to discuss here. If you seriously disagree that such people exist, then fine, that's up to you and I don't really care. But speaking for myself, and possibly other people, these people DO exist and they are quite common nowadays. People on this forum have just as much of a right to criticize them and dislike their activities as much as you have a right to go on your rants about whatever bothers you.
Finally, let me correct something for you. You said "devout religionist muslims" and misquoted me. I didn't say that at all. I said "devout religionists", please learn to read. Muslim, or Christian, or whatever, hypocrisy exists with these people and only the most absolute extreme fundies do not indulge in such vices as we have described here. I would imagine they live on some type of religious retreat where they do not have access to such common, every day things.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "frosty"I really don't want to start arguing about such a simple point. I have seen plenty of religionists that do such a thing, it's called hypocrisy and a holier-than-thou complex that religionists have these days. Like I said, they want to have their cake and eat it too. Enjoy the fruits of modern life while maintaining their God approved status. I have seen this all my life, primarily from followers of the three Abrahamic religions. They judge but then get offended when someone sends them some return fire, because someone as special as them in their own mind should never be insulted. I am not talking about only Muslims here either.
There is really not much to discuss here. If you seriously disagree that such people exist, then fine, that's up to you and I don't really care. But speaking for myself, and possibly other people, these people DO exist and they are quite common nowadays. People on this forum have just as much of a right to criticize them and dislike their activities as much as you have a right to go on your rants about whatever bothers you.
Finally, let me correct something for you. You said "devout religionist muslims" and misquoted me. I didn't say that at all. I said "devout religionists", please learn to read. Muslim, or Christian, or whatever, hypocrisy exists with these people and only the most absolute extreme fundies do not indulge in such vices as we have described here. I would imagine they live on some type of religious retreat where they do not have access to such common, every day things.
Hypocrisy according to what? How is it possible that you don't understand that religion is not something absolute and real that there would be something called extra hypocrisy in any religion in any culture? People just live according to what they can get away with. If you claim people with some religion are being hypocritical about it than you have some conviction about that religion's universality. Does that sound reasonable to you?
This is a real point for an argument. Some atheists have more strict and absolute beliefs in some religious codes and how some believer should act than the religionists themselves. There is no such thing. There has never been in thousands and thousands of years since this shit existed. Because it is against human reality. There are some certain politics said and written down. Nobody CARES what they are as long as they do not pose a threat to their benefit or profit. Not in Bronze age, not in medieval ages, not in hypermodern era. There is no extra hypocrisy in Christianity or Islam or in this and that. In one area people cannot get away with what others can. People are ALL THE SAME. Take the ones in that area and put them somewhere they can get away with watching porn, they will start watching porn. This is not some hypocrisy, this is how religion works and why religion is religion.
I'm not going to repeat myself for the 3rd (or 4th?) time just so you can be opinionated and argue some more. People can do what they want, it's just the finger pointing back at people of different varieties, where the holier-than-thou people can do as they please and they are special yet everyone else is a sinner. Everything I've said is there for you to read, enjoy.
Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Quote from: "CloneKai"Wow! somebody is seriously angry.
How to replay?
first i did not make any blanket statement.
My first para, "probably a huge percentage" believe that blasphemer must be hung. yeah, they probably do. After that i said most human are not murderers and musl!m are the same. Meaning most musl!m are not murderers as well, no matter what they believe.
My second para, i said most musl!m do what they want to do, no matter what they believe in. Also somewhat correct.
About the usa comment. i will tell you about that in my next post. it is kind of funny.
Then i asked what is extremist. I did not give my opinion.
My last para. I saw that happen. The parents truly seems to care for their daughter and thought that was best option.
You know what my problem is? I don't write very well.
You know what your problem is? You get angry very easily. Always the first to jump on somebody. you should enjoy more and get angry less. days will become alot brighter.
O and people in my area normally consider people like you to be western. you won't believe the uproar that happened after Turkish soaps started to appear on our TV channels. Talking about the immorality from the west. :rollin:
I am not angry, I write like this. Without the usual politically correct bullshit. (If you know I am Turkish, you read enough to get that.) That usually translates to people as anger or unhappiness. What do you mean by "I don't write very well?" You cannot express yourself in any language well or just in English?
What does Turkish soap operas have to do with any of this? Where do you live? Do they make you watch that shit? I cannot imagine why any Turkish soap opera could cause and uproar other than bad acting, bad scenario and unbelievable length.
Your post tells volumes about your world vision and it's narrow. That's the reason for my response. There is nothing in my 'angry' post more nonsense than "O look at pretty girls, they watch porn...etc" ? And that's really not about limited expression. Here is what I wrote to frosty:
QuoteThat's not a point made to critisize. It's written as a sarcastic response to the idiotic statement he made "O and look at pretty girls". Really, how nonsense is that? Is there any group of people who doesn't look or enjoy what they like to a point they can get away with? And when muslims do it, it is hypocrisy. But when christians do it, they are secular. If you cannot see this double standard you really don't see much.
Let me tell you something about 'devout religionist muslims', frosty. They do not look at pretty girls. Or watch porn. If you as an outsider you know a muslim is enjoying western vice, he might be a devout to your standards, but he is not really devout or an extremist. He is just the counterpart of christian families who condemn their children and families enjoying the same things.
I can't write in any language well. I already know two languages, now i am going to learn my third. Hopefully i will be better in that one. :oops:
As the way you write, it feels like your angry or you are very rude. for example you have given me quote of yourself stating something about my idiotic comment.
the last time we cross words was i think in thread about jinns. I wrote what i along with my fellow musl!m were taught about the jinns, and there you come along and say it doesn't matter what i know.
see rude or very angry.
I live somewhere between india and afghanistan and iran. I am sure you have heard of my country, it is very popular.
Turkey is a very modern and european nation to us. most common perception of them is that they have left their !slamic base, befriended the usa sprog of the middle east and always sucking up european union trying to become a member. couple of months ago turkish soaps started to appear on our cables. they became very popular. so our local producer started to complain. biggest protest was how they were so immoral and showed so much skin. i think people are still fighting this new cultural invasion.
my post main purpose was that the musl!m might believe something is wrong but they will still do it. Not in watching babes (which is very common in my experience) but in hanging people.
They believe this crime is worthy of hanging and they will say he must be hung. But if they were given sword. they will not be the one to kill him. They are doing a bad thing in letting him go (against their belief) but they are still human thus cannot kill so easily.
QuoteWas your mother the parent that forced her children or was she forced herself, or both?
Sorry, could have been clearer on that.
My mum was pretty much forced into her first marriage for economic and racist reasons. After like... 15 years or so?... she finally got a divorce after he hit her trying to hit one of their kids.
Social views though she definately pushed, "Omg, women should never be seen or talked to unless they are your wife!".
So in that regard... she doesn't really push for arranged marriages but at the same time is against interacting with women... which would make the eventual marriage part kinda hard. Probably explains why between her 3 sons there are like... 6 divorces and several kids out of wedlock.
Of course extremists are not the popular viewpoint, this is by definition. They are extreme relative to mainstream muslim views.
That's like saying "unusual views are not held by the majority of people."
We are all entitled to our own opinions, it's fine. I let my guard down for a bit, drunkenshoe has stated that this topic is close to them and from my experience with the Interwebz that usually means the person will be more intense than usual with what they say. My experience should have kept me aware of that, but most people on this forum are very nice and civil in their discourse, hence my guard was let down.
Quote from: drunkenshoe
the one that are being aired these days are
1) kuzey guney
2) feriha
On "Urdu one" channel. There might be more, but i don't know. I don't watch tv unless WWE is on or some good american movie is on.
http://www.dramaslive.com/category/urdu-1-tv(Urdu 1 dramas schedule)
I pretty much guessed that much about Turkey. My father told me if i wanted to go aboard to study, then go to Turkey or Malaysia. Both of them will allow me to feel western life style but keep me in the !slamic blanket of purity! :Hangman:
I don't have the same view as my country mates. So you should argue about the exposed skin with them.
I have never seen porn channels :cry:
what are they about?
I agree, musl!m are nothing special. Christens also do things like honor killing and other stuffs. Hindu women are supposed to act like musl!m women.
No matter how much people who hate !slam or love !slam, might say, there is nothing special about that religion. there are other cultures and religions who have the same characteristic. It is just rip off of things that have been in existence in the past and might still exist today. the problem is extreme poverty, lack of education and stupid corrupt idiots on top. put shit religion in the mix. this is the result.
I simply made the post after looking at the topic of the thread. so i did not compare the them with rest of the human beings.
Nice to meet you too
And i hope next time we cross words you won't be telling me about my mental capabilities or lack of them. :-s
:shock:
I was joking!
Call me or my comment whatever you want, i don't mind.
(//http://www.itusozluk.com/image/kuzey-guney_279211.jpg)
that is called exposed skin, here anyway.
you won't see shoulders and back like that in our places.
What is that thing coming out of that women chest. we don't have that here either.
IMO exposing that much skin in formal settings is pretty unclassy and improper, however it should be up to the individual.