Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
I doubt that theism or Christianity is the problem. It's more like whether the person in question has anything worthwhile to offer. If his interest is only in explaining or defending his faith, I would quickly get bored because the topic is so silly and irrelevant. But then I never claimed that I want to have contact with theists. I do have contact with them of course. You can't swing a dead cat and not hit a theist, but any contact I might desire with them will have something to do with other interests they might have.
I don't actively go looking for interaction with theists. But I do try to be prepared when encountering them.
er....because if you only deal with non-believers you will find it real hard to purchase the things you need to live on.
We (meaning everyone, atheist or not) interact with all types of people. Some by choice, some by necessity. I don't know about you, but I do not make decisions about whether I like or dislike a person based on their religious beliefs. Therefore I believe your opening statement has false assumptions in it.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
[youtube:19q46vz8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2Y1z68-zno[/youtube:19q46vz8]
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
You say those like they're separate terms.
When people expect you to believe something just because they're saying it, that puts a very bad taste in the rational thinkers mouth.
> Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
Your conclusion is not only unwarranted based on logic, it is contrary to empirical evidence.
I interact with people in my environment, and most of them are (or pretend to be) Christian. The people at work, in the band I play in, in my barbershop quartet group, shop keepers, etc. I like interacting with many of them. Unfortunately, many of them believe (or pretend to believe) in some ancient myths. This affects their thinking on related topics.
They only pretend to believe, and pretense is not very genuine. Matthew 21:22 quotes Jesus as saying, "If you believe, you will receive whatsoever you ask for in prayer." The only people who really believe are those for whom all their prayers come true. I don't know anybody like that (except atheists, who don't ask for anything in prayer).
Luke 12:33 quotes Jesus as saying, "Sell all that you have and give the money to the poor." I don't know anybody who has done that. So there are no real Christians.
Frank
I fucking don't.
I hate christians.
Don't feel special.
I hate everybody.
How to antagonize people in one simple sentence:
-Make sweeping statement telling a group of people how they think and behave. Be sure this statement is not factual.
-Ask them why they think and behave this way.
Let's inject some big picture perspective in here. Atheist represent something like 10-15% of the U.S. populace. Xtians about 75-80%. We are in the minority virtually everywhere in this country, in some places like the Bible Belt, vastly so.
This is our forum. Says "atheist" up there at the top. Yet it never fails that over time we get visited by theists wearing their hurt shirt because we dare (gasp!) to not believe in their god. We tend to cop attitudes. There is a reason. Likewise in the real world, we tend to cop attitudes. If you think we are hypocritical because of how we deal with that, I doubt that anybody on here or in the real world is going to be sympathetic to your thinking. So if you want to stand or sit there and shake your metaphorical finger at us for not agreeing with your viewpoint or your world view,
(insert appropriate parting comment here)
QuoteWhy do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
First of all I'm married to a Christian and everyone of my friends have been Christians. I deal with Christians because they are human beings like I am. However, when I have had a shot gun pulled on me and fired in the past because I didn't pray at a meal with a friend, I definitely don't want to deal with religious gun nuts, and I sure as hell am not being pretentious with them. You are assuming atheist hate Christians which is not true of all atheists. We hate the superstitious nonsense and ignorance they have thinking they have knowledge and always trying to shove it down our throats. :roll: Solitary
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Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
I don't take kindly to godspammers. Christians themselves are fine.
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Quote from: "Hydra009"Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
I don't take kindly to godspammers. Christians themselves are fine.
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I've had more than one proselytizer tell me that doesn't apply to them. Apparently they don't understand what it means. :roll: Solitary
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
WHAAAAAAT!!!! It's obvious that YOU don't deal with Atheist very often. I would bet that your opinion about how Atheist act is corrupted by the way YOU treat Atheist. The fact is that Atheist don't have any choice but to deal with christians, and they do so not only on a daily basis but knowing full well that their own view will be disrespected by those christians.
"Attitudes & behavior" The attitudes and behavior of MOST if not all christians is to disrespect everyone else's beliefs or non-beliefs and demand reverence to their myth. Christians regularly tramp all over everyone else's civil rights in the name of their myth. RESPECT is a two way street. Christians don't respect others so why in the world do they expect respect?!
BTW C.S.LEWIS was a hack, a bad writer, as corrupt as they come, a propagandist, a dishonest businessman, a liar, a cheat, a womanizer, a NAZI and a criminal. If he is your ideal of an upstanding person than you have far more problems than how Atheist may or may not treat you.
I'll echo most of the sentiments presented here: I don't care what anyone's religious beliefs are, but I maintain my right to explain myself if confronted with questions about why I think the way I think.
Quote from: "mykcob4"BTW C.S.LEWIS was a hack, a bad writer, as corrupt as they come, a propagandist, a dishonest businessman, a liar, a cheat, a womanizer, a NAZI and a criminal.
And
The Horse and His Boy was terrible.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
I could flip the question and ask "Why do many Christians maintain a pretense of honesty and openness to ideological differences when they don't?" Both questions are assumptive, with perhaps
some truth to them, but overall meaningless.
[youtube:8j5xfij5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNNUPN3-WeM[/youtube:8j5xfij5] Solitary
Quote from: "Hydra009"And The Horse and His Boy was terrible.
[youtube:2u1vxdym]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm4BrZjY_Sg[/youtube:2u1vxdym]
I know a very few christians in real life. I have no problems with them as long as they keep it to themselves. Fortunately I live in a country where most do just that.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
How about this as an answer? "Because we want to convert all Christians to atheism." You wouldn't accept that, right? I mean, maybe as an answer, but not as something you'd want us to do to YOU.
Because your god actually exists, right? And because Christianity - your form of it - is actually the best way to live, right?
Let me ask you something. Did that previous paragraph sound a lot like you?
Quote from: "Mermaid"We (meaning everyone, atheist or not) interact with all types of people. Some by choice, some by necessity. I don't know about you, but I do not make decisions about whether I like or dislike a person based on their religious beliefs. Therefore I believe your opening statement has false assumptions in it.
That would only be true if I used the word "all". If you're not included in the "many", then I would simply say, congratulations!
Quote from: "Agramon"Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
[youtube:18zqdgi6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2Y1z68-zno[/youtube:18zqdgi6]
And some respond by making my point for me. Thanks!
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
You say those like they're separate terms.
Um, that's because they are actually separate terms. Just because one is a theist, doesn't mean that they are a Christian. On term is very broad, and the other is much more narrow and precise. I could also include terms of higher precision by naming particular denominational sects within Islam or Christianity. Those would also be separate terms cotained within the broader framework of theism. But they are actually separate terms.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
You say those like they're separate terms.
Um, that's because they are actually separate terms.
You seemed to be implying that Christians were in some way separate from theists. They are not.
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"You seemed to be implying that Christians were in some way separate from theists. They are not.
No I didn't. I moved from the general to the specific because I'm talking about atheists. Atheism's affirmation of the non-existance of God doesn't only refer to the Christian God, and my question doesn't pertain to atheists who somehow only concern themselves with one particular deity amongst many. I'm curious in both general terms, because atheists presumably don't be in ANY God, and I'm curious in particular, as a Christian. There's nothing implied about a Christian not being a theist in any sense at all.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Atheism's affirmation of the non-existance of God doesn't only refer to the Christian God
You can call it an affirmation all you like, it will be as incorrect today as it was yesterday, and it will continue to be incorrect tomorrow. Atheists lack belief in deities. That is not an assertion, it is a lack of belief. How many more times do you need to be told this before it finally penetrates that abnormally thick cranium of yours?
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "gomtuu77"Atheism's affirmation of the non-existance of God doesn't only refer to the Christian God
You can call it an affirmation all you like, it will be as incorrect today as it was yesterday, and it will continue to be incorrect tomorrow. Atheists lack belief in deities. That is not an assertion, it is a lack of belief. How many more times do you need to be told this before it finally penetrates that abnormally thick cranium of yours?
What does that have to do with the original issue? Whether or not I was saying Christians were not theists or not? If you'd rather me say atheism's lack of belief that's fine, but that still has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Was that an attempt to change the subject?
INCASE YOU FORGOTQuote from: "gomtuu77"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"You seemed to be implying that Christians were in some way separate from theists. They are not.
No I didn't. I moved from the general to the specific because I'm talking about atheists. Atheism's lack of affirming beliefs in the existance of God doesn't only refer to the Christian God, and my question doesn't pertain to atheists who somehow only concern themselves with one particular deity amongst many. I'm curious in both general terms, because atheists presumably don't be in ANY God, and I'm curious in particular, as a Christian. There's nothing implied about a Christian not being a theist in any sense at all.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"What does that have to do with the original issue?
Nothing, actually. The original issue was over and done with. You raised a new issue, and I went after that. Fairly standard practice around here.
QuoteWhy do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
The original question. The answer is that people choose to do what they do. "many" atheists? How many? What percentage?
"Maintain the pretense they actually want to deal with or have contact with the theist, yada yada yada."
Best answer is to ask the question to the individual you are referring to. You need to understand something. Atheism isn't group think, it isn't institutionalized or organized by a set of rules and regulations. Atheism is the non belief in gods, period. So when you try to group atheists together, you've got a problem. We are not herd animals, and don't all pretend to think alike. I know the difference between theistic thinking and atheistic thinking, because I've been there. Theists are very much herd animals and can be quantified as a group. Atheists are not nearly so. Sort of like herding cats, so to speak. The question is too vague to be quantified in any way that matters, so your answers are going to amount to opinions and little else.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Quote from: "Mermaid"We (meaning everyone, atheist or not) interact with all types of people. Some by choice, some by necessity. I don't know about you, but I do not make decisions about whether I like or dislike a person based on their religious beliefs. Therefore I believe your opening statement has false assumptions in it.
That would only be true if I used the word "all". If you're not included in the "many", then I would simply say, congratulations!
Dude. The answer is still the same: There are a lot of theists in the world and we deal with them BY NECESSITY.
It's not a "pretense", it's survival and living in today's world.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"You seemed to be implying that Christians were in some way separate from theists. They are not.
No I didn't.
Actually, by the way English works, "the theist or the Christian" says, not implies, exactly that. "The theist, Christian or other", or some similar construct, wouldn't.
QuoteAtheism's affirmation of the non-existance of God
Exists solely in the mind of theists. We don't believe in any god - not all of us believe that there's no god. Since the ONLY thing that ALL atheists have in common is LACK OF BELIEF in any god, that's all atheism, qua atheism, is.
Sorry if you can't accept that, or if it somehow bothers something in you, but that's the reality of it, and atheism is about reality, not about someone else's fantasy, whether that fantasy be about some god or about what we atheists believe.
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"Quote from: "gomtuu77"Atheism's affirmation of the non-existance of God doesn't only refer to the Christian God
You can call it an affirmation all you like, it will be as incorrect today as it was yesterday, and it will continue to be incorrect tomorrow. Atheists lack belief in deities. That is not an assertion, it is a lack of belief. How many more times do you need to be told this before it finally penetrates that abnormally thick cranium of yours?
What does that have to do with the original issue? Whether or not I was saying Christians were not theists or not? If you'd rather me say atheism's lack of belief that's fine, but that still has nothing to do with what we were talking about.
It has to do with what Hijiri was talking about in that post. Or don't you know how forums work?
Quote from: "gomtuu77"And some respond by making my point for me. Thanks!
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I hate all theists and have begun a murderous spree killing them in the tens of millions. No need to pretend anymore. :)
Since I live in the U.S., most of my neighbors are theists. Most of my family are theists. Hell, my go to guy at the music store is a theist. I don't avoid them, or make any pretense, I just coexist with them. Is that so hard to understand?
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"I hate all theists and have begun a murderous spree killing them in the tens of millions. No need to pretend anymore. :)
In all likelihood, godspammer#134723 over here will take your sarcasm seriously.
I don't fear Christians because the vast majority of them are quite harmless.
It's not a pretense: I like a lot of Christians! Many of them, I love! It's CHRISTIANITY that I want nothing to do with (except to refute it).
Quote from: "gomtuu77"Why do many atheists maintain the pretense that they actually want to deal with or have any contact with the theist or the Christian when its clear from their attitudes and behavior that they don't?
Firstly, Christians and theists should not be seperated because Christians are (one type of) theist.
Now, with that out of the way, what makes you think that no atheist wants contact with theists? That's a huge generalisation. Do you avoid contact with anyone of different views to your own? Didn't think so...
Personally, I don't have anything at all against theists. I just have something against people who try to preach to me and shove their values down my throat (regardless of if they're theists or atheists). Now, I'm not denying that there are some atheists who literally dislike every theist they meet, but I would bet my shirt that they're by far the exception and not the rule.