seems people say this alot these days.
the latest example is the idiot senator here in colorado who thinks eating fried chicken makes you poor. now this isn't about her, its about how today it seems there are certain things you can say, wrong or right that people instead of engaging in debate try to shut you down by saying what you said is offensive.
an example that will ring true here is saying atheist stuff to a christian and they say "I'm offended!" instead of trying to argue.
I actually think that society would be better off if wrong viewpoints were challenged instead of silenced.
in other words the black senator should have stood up and argued why the fried chicken lady is an idiot. NOT simply whine about being offended and how dare she say that.
why shouldn't people say what they believe? you don't agree? argue with them.
a good example is me. I wondered why a woman being drunk but verbally saying yes is rape.
she did say yes, and nobody forced her to drink and then be a dumbass.
had I said this on PZ Myers website, I'd have just been shut down. called a rape apologist, offensive, the end. they feel self righteous, I remain convinced of my view.
instead I mentioned this to a friend of mine in real life who is a feminist and she simply challenged me. she pointed out how its stupid to leave car keys in your car, but if you do, a person stealing it is still a thief, right? yeah. then she mentions kids and the mentilly disabled and how they can't consent even if they say yes because their judgement is impaired. just like a drunks.
which is why its rape.
now I agree that it is rape. I was wrong. my view was challenged by debate. I changed my view.
this wouldn't have happened if people just shut me down by crying about being offended.
so what do you think?
In the case of our Colorado congresswoman, the equating of fried chicken to blacks is promoting a racial stereotype, which is why the fire. Had she worded her comment differently, it might well have passed beneath the radar. I don't necessarily think it is racist, but because of the fact she is a Republican and white speaking about people of another ethnicity, she really ought to choose her words carefully.
I can get on board with that. It's much easier to be offended than it is to construct a rational opinion to counter a particular point of view.
I remember when I was 6-years-old, my cousin was my best mate. We were walking down the street together. A guy that we both knew, had lost his leg in an accident, he drove by us and waved. He had also recently married. I can remember asking my cousin, a year older than me, why anyone would marry somebody with only one leg? To this day I can remember his response....."to help them". I'm 51 now, and to this day, even tho I was only 6 at the time, I'm ashamed of having asked the question. (Wow, I just had a religious experience, I've never told this story before!)
Quote from: "stromboli"In the case of our Colorado congresswoman, the equating of fried chicken to blacks is promoting a racial stereotype, which is why the fire.
right but why not argue why stereotyping is bad, or why its wrong, etc? this thread isn't specifically about her or even if she's right, wrong, or whatever. its about people saying things others deem "offensive" shouldn't be said. The black lady didn't stand up and say "you are making incorrect stereotypes, and here's why they're wrong. also here's why thinking food makes you poor is wrong. no she said "I'm offended and how dare you say that. She won't have racist shit at this meeting? why not? Even if she was a blatant racist, why shouldn't she be allowed to express that opinion? Then everybody else can argue why she's wrong. let her poor reasoning be exposed to the light and shown for what it is.
QuoteHad she worded her comment differently, it might well have passed beneath the radar. I don't necessarily think it is racist, but because of the fact she is a Republican and white speaking about people of another ethnicity, she really ought to choose her words carefully.
it is a good idea to choose your words carefully to avoid misunderstandings. but this isn't about her, I just used her as an example.
Agree with what you are saying. It seems in our current political/social environment that people are quick to take offense at almost anything. I once got into an almost heated argument with a black gentleman I worked with because he misunderstood something I said, and confronted me. I had been speaking about Vietnam vets-he is one- and the comment I made he interpreted to mean "black" and thought I was being racist.
In the case of your feminist acquaintance, I would automatically side with her because I have a daughter and can see her viewpoint (she is a feminist) so I've been indoctrinated, I guess. I guess the lesson, if there is one, is for us to be more patient and less inclined to snap judgment.
My generation, those born between 1991-1997 were raised to be all "sharey" and "nice" by our TV shows and many of our parental parties. Basically it was right when the TV stations freaked out about the violent shows like DBZ and some of the 80's re-runs. As such I think that my generation as a whole, was influenced to be more apt to reacting negatively to small comments due to the fact that we were raised to be, for lack of a better phrase
Whiny angst filled kids who couldn't express their anger.
So when I hear the whole "that offends me" phrase from people my age I cringe inwardly. I was raised by parents who gave me free reign over games and TV. Pretty much anything I wanted to watch/play I could (though Diablo and Jurassic park gave me nightmares) and when angered I was told to tell someone plainly. "that pisses me off, don't do that." instead of the more passive-aggressive "that offends me, you shouldn't do that" Do the terms mean something similar? yes. Do they have the same effect? Nope
Her remarks are pretty messed up. Obviously, there is no problem with the "black race" or its genetic makeup (sickle cell anemia is a response to endemic malaria, which occurs in a bunch of tropical/subtropical climates, so obviously, there are non-blacks with the disease, but yeah, sub-Saharan Africa really got nailed with it, and their New World descendents sometimes carry it today) but she does sort of have a point in that American blacks are 1.8 times more likely to get diabetus, and yeah, diet is a big part of that. But a muddled message and racist overtones really hurt her point.
I'm pretty tired of the idea that we have the right to not be offended. I say that even as some things offend me.
Exactly. Any time someone tells me that something I said offends them (assuming I wasn't being offensive) I remind them that there's no Constitutional guarantee to not be offended, so they're free to feel offended any time they like.
If you are offended...it's your fault, not mine.
That usually offends people somemore.
If you're not offended, you're dead.
I'm offended every time I see myself in a mirror now. :shock: :( Solitary
Quote from: "surly74"If you are offended...it's your fault, not mine.
That usually offends people somemore.
I'm offended by people who get offended.
Where's my free government legislation protecting my sensibilities?
I can definetly relate to this topic, personally those who simply claim to be "offended" by something you say with no rebuttal or argument are either just plain lazy or there not really offended at all and are just claiming to be because that's what they would consider to be the norm. I once was explaining to my coworkers why I am pro legalizing marajuana, one of the ladies at my work replied with "what you just said is very offensive". I replied with the simple challenge of why is that? Her reply was "it just is". If your going to offer your two cents at least have the nerve to back up what your saying in some form or another.
Quote from: "You Only Live Once"I can definetly relate to this topic, personally those who simply claim to be "offended" by something you say with no rebuttal or argument are either just plain lazy or there not really offended at all and are just claiming to be because that's what they would consider to be the norm. I once was explaining to my coworkers why I am pro legalizing marajuana, one of the ladies at my work replied with "what you just said is very offensive". I replied with the simple challenge of why is that? Her reply was "it just is". If your going to offer your two cents at least have the nerve to back up what your saying in some form or another.
Yeah it happens all the time.
"Im offended" seems to be where the buck stops in argument terms with many people who use it as an excuse to stifle the opinions of others.
Quote from: "hillbillyatheist"seems people say this alot these days.
the latest example is the idiot senator here in colorado who thinks eating fried chicken makes you poor. now this isn't about her, its about how today it seems there are certain things you can say, wrong or right that people instead of engaging in debate try to shut you down by saying what you said is offensive.
an example that will ring true here is saying atheist stuff to a christian and they say "I'm offended!" instead of trying to argue.
I actually think that society would be better off if wrong viewpoints were challenged instead of silenced.
in other words the black senator should have stood up and argued why the fried chicken lady is an idiot. NOT simply whine about being offended and how dare she say that.
why shouldn't people say what they believe? you don't agree? argue with them.
a good example is me. I wondered why a woman being drunk but verbally saying yes is rape.
she did say yes, and nobody forced her to drink and then be a dumbass.
had I said this on PZ Myers website, I'd have just been shut down. called a rape apologist, offensive, the end. they feel self righteous, I remain convinced of my view.
instead I mentioned this to a friend of mine in real life who is a feminist and she simply challenged me. she pointed out how its stupid to leave car keys in your car, but if you do, a person stealing it is still a thief, right? yeah. then she mentions kids and the mentilly disabled and how they can't consent even if they say yes because their judgement is impaired. just like a drunks.
which is why its rape.
now I agree that it is rape. I was wrong. my view was challenged by debate. I changed my view.
this wouldn't have happened if people just shut me down by crying about being offended.
so what do you think?
I'm know I'm going a little off topic on the whole "I'm offended" thing, but I don't think saying "yes" to sex while drunk is rape. Here's MY argument.
Saying "yes, let's have sex" is called consent, whether you're drunk or not. Being drunk does not give you license to excuse behavior you might regret later (and blame it on someone else!). We hold drunk people responsible for all their other actions, so why not saying "yes" to sex? If we let women say "yes" while drunk and then let them call it "rape" when they're sober, then no drunk person in the world should be held accountable for their actions, either. So much for DUIs and alcohol-fueled violence! They made a mistake, they weren't thinking clearly! No...that's crap, in my opinion.
Now, if the woman is
unconscious and incapable of giving consent (or even moving), then it's rape. That's the difference. Bad decisions while inebriated do not equal being raped. Only being taken advantage of when
no consent was given is rape.
Look, I feel bad for women who go out and get plastered only to end up in bed with a jerk, but YOU SAID YES. You willingly went into their bed, had your fun, and then felt bad about the next day because you got your inhibitions back. You can't blame someone for not knowing what your own limitations are when you gave them consent.
And that's how I feel about that.
LOL try saying that on PZ myers website. you'd be banned in five seconds. :lol:
you surprise me with your take. being an open feminist and such. seems most feminists would not only disagree with you but call you a rape apologist. they're full of shit to say that but they would, hence my surprise. but then who ever said feminists all agree on everything? LOL
anyway, you have a point. however its at least sleezy to keep a womans glass full so she'll have sex with you, when she wouldn't do it sober.
it's not rape like roofies, or forced, but it can be like sex with a kid or retarded person. maybe a kind of statutory rape. you took advantage of a person while they were impaired. I can see the validity in the analogy that just because somebody leaves their keys in the car and the door open doesn't give you a right to take advantage of them and steal the car.
I don't hold a strong view on this either way, but I know I wouldn't do it.
If you try and get someone drunk and then have sex with them, I would qualify that as something completely different as when someone gets themselves drunk and then has sex with someone.
And even then, you can just say "no thanks" when someone keeps offering to fill up your drink.
I agree with smartmarzipan; drunk people should be held responsible for the shit they pull while drunk. Alcohol is not an excuse that allows us to break the law and fuck things up without facing the consequences. It's your own choice to impair your own judgement, and you'll just have to suffer the outcome. If you don't like what you do while drunk, instead of blaming everyone else, just stop drinking and the whole problem goes away.
And the analogy works, kinda, until you get to the point where you leave the keys in, the door open, and then tell some guy "Oh yeah step in, take it for a ride, go have fun. I don't want it anymore."
Even while drunk, at some point you're still giving actual, real consent by saying "yes, I would like to have sex with you".
Quote from: "Smartmarzipan"Saying "yes, let's have sex" is called consent, whether you're drunk or not. Being drunk does not give you license to excuse behavior you might regret later (and blame it on someone else!).
Yeah. Being drunk doesn't excuse you from breaking the law, either.
My ex once got totally trashed and walked down to the park in the village in the middle of the night. She was found lying on the ground near someone's house screaming, saying she had been raped by some kids who were playing basketball in that park in the middle of the night. Teenagers, I assume. But there simply was no evidence to support this, including the security camera from the nearby parking lot. So the investigator had to convince her to not file a report because she could get a false report charge. Being drunk and hallucinating the entire thing would not protect her from this.
Frankly, I'm of two minds. I can believe there are creeps out there who manage to manipulate people into drinking too much to make them more agreeable to having sex with them. However, they aren't the ones who drank all that alcohol, now are they? People have to be responsible for their own actions or else the whole concept of blame or wrongdoing becomes meaningless.
Quote from: "hillbillyatheist"LOL try saying that on PZ myers website. you'd be banned in five seconds. :lol:
you surprise me with your take. being an open feminist and such. seems most feminists would not only disagree with you but call you a rape apologist.
I feel like you don't know that many feminists.....maybe we run in different circles.
Quoteit's not rape like roofies, or forced, but it can be like sex with a kid or retarded person. maybe a kind of statutory rape.
So what do you make of 2 drunk people fucking each other? Do they both go to jail? Or are they both victims?
Look, I'm just saying, if there is a voluntary "yeah, let's fuck" involved, I don't see why anyone should go to jail, lowered inhibitions be damned.
LOL I see two drunks as like two kids. they aren't pedophiles. LOL
its not the same as with an adult and a kid.
so two drunks is different from one person trying to get the other drunk to fuck 'em.
I don't hold a strong view either way on this but one angle to consider is signing a contract.
if you get somebody drunk and then have them sign a contract it won't hold water in court. sex could be seen in the same way.
is not a strong view as I see good arguments on both sides here, but this is certainly a good example for this thread on a topic with good stuff to consider on both sides, while some would want to just shut down the conversation with "HOW DARE YOU EVENE SAY THAT!" kinda stuff.
Laura, can I buy you a drink?
Let em be offended. If you're right then opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.
Quote from: "hillbillyatheist"is not a strong view as I see good arguments on both sides here, but this is certainly a good example for this thread on a topic with good stuff to consider on both sides, while some would want to just shut down the conversation with "HOW DARE YOU EVENE SAY THAT!" kinda stuff.
Sorry for kind of derailing....I know this was about people being offended with nothing else to offer but their indignation and how much that sucks.
Buuuut.....sometimes when people say something really stupid, I don't offer counter-arguments, either. I just tell them they're fucking stupid and move on because I don't feel like it's worth it. So, it's worth asking yourself if you've said something really stupid when someone just says "Fuck you, that's offensive!" and walks away.....
/playingDevil'sAdvocate
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"Laura, can I buy you a drink?
Shit, you can buy me five, as long as they ain't cheap.
Five Grey Goose dirty martinis coming right up!
Quote from: "Smartmarzipan"Quote from: "hillbillyatheist"is not a strong view as I see good arguments on both sides here, but this is certainly a good example for this thread on a topic with good stuff to consider on both sides, while some would want to just shut down the conversation with "HOW DARE YOU EVENE SAY THAT!" kinda stuff.
Sorry for kind of derailing....I know this was about people being offended with nothing else to offer but their indignation and how much that sucks.
Buuuut.....sometimes when people say something really stupid, I don't offer counter-arguments, either. I just tell them they're fucking stupid and move on because I don't feel like it's worth it.
we're all guilty of it. myself included. just remember sometimes its the teabagger thinking the same thing when you try to defend abortions or health care, or atheism.
we all have hot button issues, but the only real way to seek progress is to actually have a conversation.
sometimes all of us can just get so frustrated with people we disagree with that we forget that.
QuoteSo, it's worth asking yourself if you've said something really stupid when someone just says "Fuck you, that's offensive!" and walks away.....
/playingDevil'sAdvocate
its possible but then you'd have to think likewise when a teabagger or some such does that to you.
Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"Five Grey Goose dirty martinis coming right up!
*Gak!* :-&
It's like you don't even know me.
I'm more of an Amaretto or Long Island Ice Tea kinda gal....
QuoteIf you try and get someone drunk and then have sex with them, I would qualify that as something completely different as when someone gets themselves drunk and then has sex with someone.
And even then, you can just say "no thanks" when someone keeps offering to fill up your drink.
Interesting discussion. Just throwing this out there but.. What about the pickup artist who intentionally sets out to psychologically manipulate someone into having sex with him? Is it different, better or worse if you use polished bullshit instead of alcohol?
Quote from: "Smartmarzipan"Quote from: "PopeyesPappy"Five Grey Goose dirty martinis coming right up!
*Gak!* :-&
It's like you don't even know me.
I'm more of an Amaretto or Long Island Ice Tea kinda gal....
Whatever you desire. As long as it is intoxicating.
Quote from: "billhilly"Interesting discussion. Just throwing this out there but.. What about the pickup artist who intentionally sets out to psychologically manipulate someone into having sex with him? Is it different, better or worse if you use polished bullshit instead of alcohol?
Good question. I've always eschewed lines for exactly that reason, that it's a cheesy one-size-fits-all thing that not only demeans the woman, but also demeans the man spitting lines, the reason being that if I'm using lines, I'm not trusting my people-sense and inherently showing myself to therefore be
not-real.I'd rather get shot down being myself than get laid playing a role ... only to have to keep that role-playing up, right?
Bottom line, I guess I value being real more than being sexed-up.
Jesus, I sound like a twat right now.
It's not so much a value thing for me as just being too lazy I suppose. I've worked with some guys (singers mainly) who've had really good "game". Being the curious type, I looked into it and it seems to be a fairly sound theory. Kind of a twisted manipulation of anthropology. They're really good at aping behaviors that women are wired to be attracted to on a subconscious level and I'll be damned if it doesn't work. I'm just too lazy and reserved to "peacock".
I'm offended when people thank god for the food that's on their table especially if I'm the one that put it there.
I'm offended when people thank god in response to being helped by Fireman, Police or good Samaritans (ie helpful person who jumps in river and saves their child etc)
I'm offended when someone in a crowd decides that everyone of us should pray.
And on and on.
So, let's require persons of faith to stop the nonsense because it offends me.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"Quote from: "billhilly"Interesting discussion. Just throwing this out there but.. What about the pickup artist who intentionally sets out to psychologically manipulate someone into having sex with him? Is it different, better or worse if you use polished bullshit instead of alcohol?
Good question. I've always eschewed lines for exactly that reason, that it's a cheesy one-size-fits-all thing that not only demeans the woman, but also demeans the man spitting lines, the reason being that if I'm using lines, I'm not trusting my people-sense and inherently showing myself to therefore be not-real.
I'd rather get shot down being myself than get laid playing a role ... only to have to keep that role-playing up, right?
Bottom line, I guess I value being real more than being sexed-up.
Jesus, I sound like a twat right now.
If that's true, I wish the world were full of twats. On the one hand, people who are only after meaningless sex are incredibly lame and uninteresting people.
On the other hand, so are the people who fall for their shit, usually.