Thought I'd just leave this here for opinions
http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-proble ... 00534.html (http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-problem-atheists-065000534.html)
To be honest I can almost see it. Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war. All your actions are justified by God. Your are inspired to acts of bravery with the confidence that God will protect you, and if he doesn't you can be sure you will be rewarded for your sacrifice with eternal paradise.
On the other hand, when you are an atheist and you know that you only have one life, throwing it into the line of fire becomes a much bigger deal. The non-believing men and women who serve in combat are all the more heroic for their service in spite of what they know they are risking.
Just because God isn't real and faith is stupid doesn't mean it has no military applications. A motivated and confident military is essential for victory, even if the reason for that motivation is bullshit and the confidence is unfounded.
It is dangerous. Remove religion from the "duty, honor, country" and you remove a motivator to run into battle. Thinking twice about risking your life for a cause not justified by religion is a real game changer.
Quote from: "Nonsensei"To be honest I can almost see it. Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war. All your actions are justified by God. Your are inspired to acts of bravery with the confidence that God will protect you, and if he doesn't you can be sure you will be rewarded for your sacrifice with eternal paradise.
On the other hand, when you are an atheist and you know that you only have one life, throwing it into the line of fire becomes a much bigger deal. The non-believing men and women who serve in combat are all the more heroic for their service in spite of what they know they are risking.
Just because God isn't real and faith is stupid doesn't mean it has no military applications. A motivated and confident military is essential for victory, even if the reason for that motivation is bullshit and the confidence is unfounded.
It may just be me, but if a person needs justification to be willing to make that sacrifice, then that's not bravery. If you believe in your heart of hearts that if you die you will go to heaven then what do you have to lose? An atheist risking their life, as Pat Tillman did, is true bravery.
Yeah, I don't think a soldier who goes into 130 degree desert where he risks watching his friend get blown up, himself getting blown up, captured and tortured or developing a whole range of mental disorders that will completely destroy his life when he comes home is brave either.
/sarcasm
I have 2 sons in the military. Both have "no religious preference" on their dog tags. My oldest son was awarded the Bronze Star in Iraq for his actions as a squad leader pulling some exposed Marines out of danger by shielding them and taking heavy fire on his vehicle. He himself returned fire from an exposed position to protect them. Guts doesn't come from religion. In battle it is about protecting your comrades and doing your job, not religion.
But it is a lot more difficult to convince people to serve if they don't believe there is religious justification behind their joining. It is a lot easier to motivate someone to be cannon fodder if they think that they will wind up in heaven if they die. Think how many suicide bombers there would be in Islam if they didn't believe in their god. I can certainly see why the military would be concerned about atheism.
Quote from: "ZachyFTW"Quote from: "Nonsensei"To be honest I can almost see it. Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war. All your actions are justified by God. Your are inspired to acts of bravery with the confidence that God will protect you, and if he doesn't you can be sure you will be rewarded for your sacrifice with eternal paradise.
On the other hand, when you are an atheist and you know that you only have one life, throwing it into the line of fire becomes a much bigger deal. The non-believing men and women who serve in combat are all the more heroic for their service in spite of what they know they are risking.
Just because God isn't real and faith is stupid doesn't mean it has no military applications. A motivated and confident military is essential for victory, even if the reason for that motivation is bullshit and the confidence is unfounded.
It may just be me, but if a person needs justification to be willing to make that sacrifice, then that's not bravery. If you believe in your heart of hearts that if you die you will go to heaven then what do you have to lose? An atheist risking their life, as Pat Tillman did, is true bravery.
I don't think the military cares if its real bravery. What they care about is having soldiers willing to do incredibly risky things on a regular basis.
> Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war.
That's why the belt buckle of the Nazi uniform had the inscription, "Gott mit uns." (God with us.) It's also why 6.5 million Jews were brutally exterminated.
Frank
It the military wasn't just making it up as they go, "atheist" would have been a valid reason for not being drafted, back when we had a draft, since that automatically renders you unfit for military service, according to these guidelines.
Trust me, all it got you was the choice of serving in the military or the stockade.
At best they're hypocrites, at worst they're full of shit. (Or are they the same thing?)
Quote from: "Shiranu"Yeah, I don't think a soldier who goes into 130 degree desert where he risks watching his friend get blown up, himself getting blown up, captured and tortured or developing a whole range of mental disorders that will completely destroy his life when he comes home is brave either.
/sarcasm
Missed the point. What is brave in your opinion? A person going in thinking death means he gets to paradise or another person going in thinking death means the end of everything he will ever be?
Quote from: "ZachyFTW"Quote from: "Shiranu"Yeah, I don't think a soldier who goes into 130 degree desert where he risks watching his friend get blown up, himself getting blown up, captured and tortured or developing a whole range of mental disorders that will completely destroy his life when he comes home is brave either.
/sarcasm
Missed the point. What is brave in your opinion? A person going in thinking death means he gets to paradise or another person going in thinking death means the end of everything he will ever be?
Neither. I think brave is when you are willing to have your limbs blown off and watch your friends get blown up by an IED, or risk getting capture and tortured on camera, because you believe in protecting the United States.
I didn't miss the point, I just don't agree with your extremely limited view on it.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Quote from: "ZachyFTW"Quote from: "Shiranu"Yeah, I don't think a soldier who goes into 130 degree desert where he risks watching his friend get blown up, himself getting blown up, captured and tortured or developing a whole range of mental disorders that will completely destroy his life when he comes home is brave either.
/sarcasm
Missed the point. What is brave in your opinion? A person going in thinking death means he gets to paradise or another person going in thinking death means the end of everything he will ever be?
Neither. I think brave is when you are willing to have your limbs blown off and watch your friends get blown up by an IED, or risk getting capture and tortured on camera, because you believe in protecting the United States.
I didn't miss the point, I just don't agree with your extremely limited view on it.
In that case then, do you believe that the 9/11 bombers were brave?
Quote from: "ZachyFTW"In that case then, do you believe that the 9/11 bombers were brave?
To hijack an airplane and run it into a building because of decades of foreign oppression and "intervention" in their country? Yeah, I do. I know I sure as fuck couldn't do it.
Just like the troops, I disagree with their methods... but I can't argue against them having balls.
Quote from: "Shiranu"Quote from: "ZachyFTW"In that case then, do you believe that the 9/11 bombers were brave?
To hijack an airplane and run it into a building because of decades of foreign oppression in their country? Yeah, I do. I know I sure as fuck couldn't do it.
Just like the troops, I disagree with their methods... but I can't argue against them having balls.
I disagree. Let's leave what we know to be true out of it and look at it from their perspective. If I fly this plane into this building, I go to heaven and have all the virgins. In their heads that is a fact. Death to them is a reward which is why I can't see how people classify them as brave. The troops to a lesser extent, but still the same principle.
Bravery does not mean you won't be rewarded afterwards; infact the whole root of bravery is the belief that their is some sort of reward. For the terrorists, it was the deaths of Americans and the afterlife. For Christian soldiers, it is the belief that they are protecting America. For atheists, its the belief they are protecting America. No one does something brave without believing their is a reward for their action.
I don't know anyone in the military who says, "Gee, I sure hope I get shipped to Afghanistan and get killed, because it would be very cool to go to heaven!". Almost all of the military men and women I know have husbands/wives, kids and have no intention of leaving them to fend for themselves and feel terrible having to leave their families. The thing is they feel that their duty as a soldier is the most important thing thing can do... not that they are putting themselves in the fast lane to heaven, not even that it is their duty as a Christian, but that is their duty as an American.
I don't know how much exposure you have had to the troops, but I spent about half my life at military bases and I have yet to meet a soldier who is there to do "God's work" or is in the fast track to heaven. That is not to say they don't exist, I am 99% they do... but for the majority of soldiers, they DO NOT LIKE the fact that they could be killed, they aren't running around celebrating that any day they or their friends could get blown up and go to heaven... they are doing it because it is their job and their (perceived) obligation.
For as much as I despise the military and the MIC, I won't for a second question the bravery of a soldier. These people put themselves into extremely dangerous situations to, in their minds, protect us and to question their motives is, to me, extremely disrespectful.
Bravery is the willingness to risk something valuable to achieve something valuable. When a soldier fights, he is risking his life to achieve victory. But when you think that you can't truly die - that you have an immortal soul that will ascend to eternal paradise when your physical body expires - what you are risking loses significance. Trading what you consider to be an impure, pain filled life for eternal perfect paradise isn't a sacrifice or a risk. Dying in the line of duty becomes an opportunity to, in one shot, earn the right to ascend to heaven and actually do it.
QuoteBut when you think that you can't truly die - that you have an immortal soul that will ascend to eternal paradise when your physical body expires - what you are risking loses significance.
Huh. I'm going to have to ask some soldiers if they think their wife and kids don't have that much significance because they are busy trying to fast track it to heaven. I'm sure they will agree with that statement...
How did I question motives? I said I didn't want religion in the military because it clouds judgement. If you take that as I am "disrespectful" then I'm sorry you're taking it that way.
Quote from: "ZachyFTW"How did I question motives? I said I didn't want religion in the military because it clouds judgement. If you take that as I am "disrespectful" then I'm sorry you're taking it that way.
QuoteIt may just be me, but if a person needs justification to be willing to make that sacrifice, then that's not bravery.
I'm assuming you meant motive there when you said justification. If not, my bad.
Quote from: "Shiranu"QuoteBut when you think that you can't truly die - that you have an immortal soul that will ascend to eternal paradise when your physical body expires - what you are risking loses significance.
Huh. I'm going to have to ask some soldiers if they think their wife and kids don't have that much significance because they are busy trying to fast track it to heaven. I'm sure they will agree with that statement...
Even the concern for family is lessened by the knowledge that they, too, will ascend to heaven.
"Their lives will be harder if I die, but we will all meet again in paradise"
This might come out wrong because I'm having trouble putting a sentence together to illustrate my argument. If whether or not you believe in an afterlife dictates whether or not you enlist is my problem. Ask the person "If you knew that there was nothing after this world, would you still enlist and risk your life?" If the answer is a truthful Yes then I wouldn't have an issue.
This might come out wrong because I'm having trouble putting a sentence together to illustrate my argument. If whether or not you believe in an afterlife dictates whether or not you enlist is my problem. Ask the person "If you knew that there was nothing after this world, would you still enlist and risk your life?" If the answer is a truthful Yes then I wouldn't have an issue.
Courage in battle and motivation to fight for your country are not the same thing. And yes, religion is a powerful motivator to fight for one's country. In the case of going to war with Iraq after 9/11, my son and his unit were powerfully motivated to fight an enemy-based on false premises, it turned out.
Now he is much less inclined to go to war because the reasons for it are far less obvious. After 2 tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan, he readily says that these wars were pointless and unwinnable. Any motivation to go into battle has been rendered essentially meaningless. His motives to go to war were compromised. Without the "X" factor of religion, fighting for a just cause against the evil pagan enemy makes far less sense in the light of understanding.
The 9/11 perpetrators were motivated by religion. To say that they gave up their lives without the sure belief in their own salvation would mean they were nutbags to start with- a possibility, but religion was at the core of their reasons.
Where did Jesus say that his followers were to go to war and fight in foreign countries for political or religious reasons? There is no such command or instruction in the gospels that I can see. Paul, too, was silent on the issue, saying instead that "our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against... spiritual forces of evil..." (Eph. 6:12) He used a lot of war-related analogies--e.g., "put on the armor of God"--but never said that Christians are to go to war. There are a number of verses in the New Testament indicating that, while one must live IN the world, one is not to be OF the world--that is, a Christian is not to engage in the same behaviors and customs as non-Christians do. That would surely include fighting in wars that are purely for the benefit of a physical existence, and for the self-aggrandizement of earthly political leaders looking only to obtain more power, money, land, and oil. When Christians whine about their rights being compromised in the military, or about atheists and gays being allowed in, I have to point out that there shouldn't even BE any Christians in the military at all--not if they really are following the Bible! But of course, Christians will go to great lengths explaining why THEY do not have to obey Jesus.
Another thing: It gets complicated when BOTH sides believe they will go to heaven after dying in battle. Do they just keep fighting each other when they get to heaven? What kind of paradise is that? What kind of god would reward people, anyway, for believing that war and mass murder are the only ways to solve problems? Why did he not instead create humans who can solve their differences in more peaceful ways? I guess I shouldn't question the Almighty Creator, though. His ways are higher than mine, and all that crap.
I was in the Air Force from 1989 to 1993, as a firefighter, and I had "atheist" on my dogtags, to no ill effect at all.
Regarding bravery, I was no combat troop, but as firefighter, we didn't do brave stuff for god or country or any of that crap. What bravery we did we did because someone needed it done, and we damned sure weren't going to fail in our duty, and thereby force a fellow firedog to assume our risk. I would have preferred dying to seeing a buddy die in my place. I think combat troops often fight for exactly that reason -- not because they want to kill, but because they would rather die that let down their buddies.
QuoteRegarding bravery, I was no combat troop, but as firefighter, we didn't do brave stuff for god or country or any of that crap. What bravery we did we did because someone needed it done, and we damned sure weren't going to fail in our duty, and thereby force a fellow firedog to assume our risk. I would have preferred dying to seeing a buddy die in my place. I think combat troops often fight for exactly that reason -- not because they want to kill, but because they would rather die that let down their buddies.
Yeah, I should have expanded on that. I think the reason I gave was more the reason they joined than the reason they are brave on the battlefield/practice.
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"I was in the Air Force from 1989 to 1993, as a firefighter, and I had "atheist" on my dogtags, to no ill effect at all.
Regarding bravery, I was no combat troop, but as firefighter, we didn't do brave stuff for god or country or any of that crap. What bravery we did we did because someone needed it done, and we damned sure weren't going to fail in our duty, and thereby force a fellow firedog to assume our risk. I would have preferred dying to seeing a buddy die in my place. I think combat troops often fight for exactly that reason -- not because they want to kill, but because they would rather die that let down their buddies.
Exactly. Anyone who has been in the military understands.
To be honest, I don't recall every really caring one way or another if a person was spiritual or not. I can remember serving with Baptists, Buddhists, Muslims and Pagans and it was kind of a secondary thing. Whatever got you through the night was OK with me and I'm sure it helped quite a few people.
I was a "no religious preference" kind of guy back then, but I would still talk to the chaplain every once in a while. Not sure exactly why though. I still have a bible one of them gave to me as a keepsake.
There's a little flaw with the article. The linked TECOM Order is a draft.
//http://rockbeyondbelief.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/TECOMO-5100.1.pdf
It's unsigned and undated, thus not in effect. TECOM's Order database does not contain this Order. I spoke with Paul Loebe about it and while he assured me that it's a signed Order, he couldn't provide it. So, if it is signed, it's not distrubed and not in effect.
Another thing is that it's a Order that only applies to a small portion of the Marine Corps. Though the problem is that portion is all the school houses and boot camp... so, potentially, some religitard could filter atheist Marines out before they hit the fleet.
"Lack or loss of spiritual faith" is said to be a risk indicator in the draft document. It needs to be changed. Lack of faith alone is definitately not an indicator. I and many other atheist Marines can attest to this. There may be merit to "loss." As I have read on this forum, new atheists are faced with family and friends that are either not supportive or violently opposed to becoming an atheist.
My recommendation is that they strike the line "Lack or loss of spiritual faith" all together and add a line under "Relationship Problems" such as: "Family conflict or falling out" This would cover those new atheists but point to the actual problem with the family instead of the cause. They can't list all causes to having a falling out with the family... such as even joining the Marines in the first place, but they can point to the problem. What do you all think?
Why the fuck is there gay porn on this thread?
Just some spammers. The admins will probably delete it all.
Deleted
Quote from: "ZachyFTW"Thought I'd just leave this here for opinions
http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-proble ... 00534.html (http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-problem-atheists-065000534.html)
I was in the USMC for 22+ years and I always hated it when the ranking individual called for a group prayer. I was almost courtmartialed because I refused to participate. They said that I was denying THEIR constitutional rights. Yep, thats right, that not participating I was violating their rights. Finally I was transfered out of that unit and assigned to a general in the JAG office. He was a Bhuddist. He modified my fitness reports and with favorable reports I was reassigned to a unit that had no idea of my lack of spiritualness.
The faulty saying goes that "there are no atheist in foxholes." The truth is that you don't have time to be a christian or anything else but a fighting unit.
Since my primary duty only involved me and one other individual most of the time there was no problem.
Quote from: "ZachyFTW"Quote from: "Nonsensei"To be honest I can almost see it. Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war. All your actions are justified by God. Your are inspired to acts of bravery with the confidence that God will protect you, and if he doesn't you can be sure you will be rewarded for your sacrifice with eternal paradise.
On the other hand, when you are an atheist and you know that you only have one life, throwing it into the line of fire becomes a much bigger deal. The non-believing men and women who serve in combat are all the more heroic for their service in spite of what they know they are risking.
Just because God isn't real and faith is stupid doesn't mean it has no military applications. A motivated and confident military is essential for victory, even if the reason for that motivation is bullshit and the confidence is unfounded.
It may just be me, but if a person needs justification to be willing to make that sacrifice, then that's not bravery. If you believe in your heart of hearts that if you die you will go to heaven then what do you have to lose? An atheist risking their life, as Pat Tillman did, is true bravery.
Tillman was an extrodinary man to be sure. The fact is that we all define "bravery" as we see it.
Me, I define bravery as doing what you have to do even though you're scared to death. It doesn't take "god" to face that kind of fear.
Thats why people that have been extrodinarily brave don't think of themselves as brave. They just worked through their fears. They aren't aware of how it looks to anyone else and they don't care.
In my USMC experience, I only came across religious imposition at boot camp when the lay reader read something from the bible and during retirement ceremonies where a chaplain gave an invocation.
Quote from: "ZachyFTW"Quote from: "Shiranu"Quote from: "ZachyFTW"In that case then, do you believe that the 9/11 bombers were brave?
To hijack an airplane and run it into a building because of decades of foreign oppression in their country? Yeah, I do. I know I sure as fuck couldn't do it.
Just like the troops, I disagree with their methods... but I can't argue against them having balls.
I disagree. Let's leave what we know to be true out of it and look at it from their perspective. If I fly this plane into this building, I go to heaven and have all the virgins. In their heads that is a fact. Death to them is a reward which is why I can't see how people classify them as brave. The troops to a lesser extent, but still the same principle.
As a person that has had direct and combat contact with supposed Islamic terrorist, I can say from my experience that the suicide bombers and socalled freedom fighters don't really believe in that virgin shit. They do it because they believe that thier people are oppressed. And they are right. The problem is they are attacking the wrong people. It's very convelutted. For centuries Arabs have been exploited by everyone under the sun, but mostly by the upper class of their own people (royalty etc....). The Imams blame the infidels for this oppression, just like the conservatives in this country blame everything on Liberals. They preach going back to the old ways as if that was any better. Of course it wasn't but you can't tell them that. These fighters are disillussioned with the world. They have basically become NAZIs and follow the same type and method of ideological dogma.
Freedom fighters/suicide bombers think that they are freeing their people. They don't have any illussion of having virgins in some sort of heaven.
I can understand fighting pulp culturalizm, but I wouldn't do it for monoculturalism which is exactly what they are doing it for. That is exactly what fascism is and that is what they are in a nutshell.
Quote from: "kilodelta"In my USMC experience, I only came across religious imposition at boot camp when the lay reader read something from the bible and during retirement ceremonies where a chaplain gave an invocation.
To be honest it's not very often that a CO is fanatical about religion or faith. Most of them are like Obama in that regard. They have faith(probably for political reasons) but they respect everyone else.
So goes the CO so goes the unit!
Semper Fi!
Quote from: "mykcob4"Quote from: "kilodelta"In my USMC experience, I only came across religious imposition at boot camp when the lay reader read something from the bible and during retirement ceremonies where a chaplain gave an invocation.
To be honest it's not very often that a CO is fanatical about religion or faith. Most of them are like Obama in that regard. They have faith(probably for political reasons) but they respect everyone else.
So goes the CO so goes the unit!
Semper Fi!
That's my experience as well. Commanders usually keep it to themselves or really low key.
De Oppresso Liber!
Well its good to hear that this isn't as widespread a problem as might have been believed.
Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?
Quote from: "Seabear"Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?
Of course you're conditioned to think a certain way in the military, it's necessary, but I don't think that's the reason Marines or other prior service people have the stickers on their cars. What I personally miss about the military is the camaraderie. I was also proud to serve and proud of my accomplishments. Right after I retired, I noticed that civilians seemed to lack a certain vitality and I had difficulty fitting in. I think it's nostalgia more than anything.
Quote from: "Jack89"Quote from: "Seabear"Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?
Of course you're conditioned to think a certain way in the military, it's necessary, but I don't think that's the reason Marines or other prior service people have the stickers on their cars. What I personally miss about the military is the camaraderie. I was also proud to serve and proud of my accomplishments. Right after I retired, I noticed that civilians seemed to lack a certain vitality and I had difficulty fitting in. I think it's nostalgia more than anything.
The Marines just have a lot more of it than anyone else.
Quote from: "Seabear"Quote from: "Jack89"Quote from: "Seabear"Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?
Of course you're conditioned to think a certain way in the military, it's necessary, but I don't think that's the reason Marines or other prior service people have the stickers on their cars. What I personally miss about the military is the camaraderie. I was also proud to serve and proud of my accomplishments. Right after I retired, I noticed that civilians seemed to lack a certain vitality and I had difficulty fitting in. I think it's nostalgia more than anything.
The Marines just have a lot more of it than anyone else.
That we do. It seems we have to put our logo on everything... my car and motorcycle...
Really, I see it as a way to connect to other Marines. It can give strangers a common ground and usually leads to some fun conversation... making fun of each others MOS or prior assignements.
Quote from: "Seabear"Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?
Once a Marine, always a Marine. It's not former Marine, it's inactive Marine.
We love the Corps because it is an institution that believes in the individual, personal pride and personal accountability. Yeah in bootcamp they break you down physically and mentaly and then they build you back up. They don't really brainwash you. You don't become a robot. You learn to call on an inner stregth that you didn't know existed. You learn to endure hardships that you CAN survive almost anything. You learn that others are more important than yourself. You learn that the most important thing in life is not satisfying your immediate wants. You learn to make personal sacrifices without sacrificing yourself.
It's not "god, country, Corps" as people think. It's doing what it takes, it's always doing the right thing. It's honor with integrity. It's never "the ends justifies the means"!
interesting