Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on. However, the idea of an intelligent creator is simply ridiculous. I`ll go as far as too hear a lesson on kindness from the bible, but I can`t deal with the fact that some of us humans believe in magic. But does that mean we disregard the bible completely? Bill Gates forbid. We should look at the morals and ethics represented in Christianity, and actually USE it.
Feel free to discuss anything you disagree with, I`m up for discussion.
:-|
I think the bible is full of very good moral lessons as well as you do. Probably even more so.
That's why I have stoned my unruly children to death. Which is a problem because god just asked me to sacrifice my child to him to prove my faith and now I'm fucked.
I also created intelligent life, but failed to make them all believe that I'm their benevolent 'father'. Therefore I'm torturing them for all eternity. Except the ones that believe that I tortured my son to death to atone for my failure of course.
Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on.
You mean like if your children are disobedient, you should have them murdered?
You mean like if a woman is raped, she is a whore and should be murdered?
You mean slitting open the bellies of pregnant women and smashing small children's heads against rocks?
What morals and ethics are you talking about?
Quote from: "the_antithesis"Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on.
You mean like if your children are disobedient, you should have them murdered?
You mean like if a woman is raped, she is a whore and should be murdered?
You mean slitting open the bellies of pregnant women and smashing small children's heads against rocks?
What morals and ethics are you talking about?
Actually, what you have listed there is original ancient Jewish culture. And the morals and Ethics of CHRISTIANITY I am referring to is the way we should treat one another. I do see what you are saying though, there IS some outrageous shit in the bible. I`m just saying that we should govern ourselves on how Christians SHOULD act.
Quote from: "Pretentious"Quote from: "the_antithesis"Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on.
You mean like if your children are disobedient, you should have them murdered?
You mean like if a woman is raped, she is a whore and should be murdered?
You mean slitting open the bellies of pregnant women and smashing small children's heads against rocks?
What morals and ethics are you talking about?
Actually, what you have listed there is original ancient Jewish culture. And the morals and Ethics of CHRISTIANITY I am referring to is the way we should treat one another. I do see what you are saying though, there IS some outrageous shit in the bible. I`m just saying that we should govern ourselves on how Christians SHOULD act.
Great. Then you'll love answering the post I made.
Quote from: "Pretentious"Quote from: "the_antithesis"Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on.
You mean like if your children are disobedient, you should have them murdered?
You mean like if a woman is raped, she is a whore and should be murdered?
You mean slitting open the bellies of pregnant women and smashing small children's heads against rocks?
What morals and ethics are you talking about?
Actually, what you have listed there is original ancient Jewish culture. And the morals and Ethics of CHRISTIANITY I am referring to is the way we should treat one another. I do see what you are saying though, there IS some outrageous shit in the bible. I`m just saying that we should govern ourselves on how Christians SHOULD act.
Are you referring to the golden rule?
Welcome btw :)
If you mean these principles of morality I would agree. How many Christians actually go by this? And why would you have to be taught these principles that are just common sense, and with a God's approval. I mean how much brain power does it take to know what is right or wrong? And what good are moral rules if they aren't explained as to why they are wrong, instead of just saying they are a sin?
Ethics and morals are behavioral principles in humans that determine what is right and what is wrong. As per the belief of a common man, Christianity is a religion that is bound by a certain set of rules and regulations that have been imposed by the Almighty. A Christian is required to follow these principles that impose a sense of morality and a specific ethical behavior in the individual.
Ethical practices in Christianity evolved during the Roman era. This was the period when early Christians were a part of Roman Empire. Ethics in Christianity are primarily centered on grace, mercy and forgiveness. A Christian is expected to have thoughts and deeds that are respectable and honorable and must abstain from doing any sins. The three virtues indicated in Bible include faith, hope and love. However, another four cardinal virtues were adapted by Aquinas that includes justice, courage, temperament and prudence.
According to the New Testament, God is the supreme power who is autonomous, independent and is self-existent. Individuals should have complete belief and love towards God with unfettered heart, mind, strength and soul. The New Testament directs individuals to love neighbors as one would love oneself. Morality refers to good and evil. Religion of Christianity states that good exists only in God. There is no other form of legitimate, genuine and absolute "Good" except the God Himself. Think about that! A person can't be good without God?
It is God who reveals Himself and He can only define His character of goodness. One can have complete understanding and knowledge of goodness if they know God through Jesus Christ. Goodness is not a static structure. It is a dynamic state that constantly flows. When has He shown himself? Did I miss this? So the God of the Old Testament cleaned up His act now? This is like saying OJ knows he did wrong now so all is OK and forgiven and known for his goodness. :rolleyes: This is incoherent! :roll:
This means that in modern times, the question of ethics and morality in Christianity is being seriously debated. The people from the old school want to hold on to the preachings of the Bible while the more progressive ones want to change according to the times and situations.
Is it the word of God (ancient people) that changes, or the word of (modern people) that changes?
To sum it up, why in the world do you need religion, bible, or a God to be good when it is obvious it hasn't been true for thousands of years of recorded history? This is just pick and choose from an ambiguous book that one agrees with even if they are an atheist. :roll: Solitary
QuoteIs it the word of God (ancient people) that changes, or the word of (modern people) that changes?
Human language evolves over an extended period of time. Especially thousands of years. Even within a span of, say, 10 years, language changes albeit on a far smaller scale.
As language and it's use changes over the passage of time, so do the way we perceive certain text since language has a lot to do with how we perceive things. Language in many ways is synonymous with perception as it is one of the main ways humans use to interact with and perceive the world around them.
Also, even these days, people of certain tribes are dying out and the languages they knew that was specific to their tribe fades away because nobody else outside the tribe knew it and it was not possible in the time given to translate it to another known human language. The same can be applied to "biblical (ancient) times". Language changes quite often and thus different translations passed on through the ages can become muddled from the "original" document due to certain languages not having words another language might have, different dialects being used, human error, and so on and so forth.
Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on. However, the idea of an intelligent creator is simply ridiculous. I`ll go as far as too hear a lesson on kindness from the bible, but I can`t deal with the fact that some of us humans believe in magic. But does that mean we disregard the bible completely? Bill Gates forbid. We should look at the morals and ethics represented in Christianity, and actually USE it.
Feel free to discuss anything you disagree with, I`m up for discussion.
:-|
what parts of the bible should we take our morals from that a reasonable person doesn't already understand?
Also, if you are basing your morals on the bible because you think it will get you to heaven then you aren't moral.
Quote from: "Solitary"If you mean these principles of morality I would agree. How many Christians actually go by this? And why would you have to be taught these principles that are just common sense, and with a God's approval. I mean how much brain power does it take to know what is right or wrong? And what good are moral rules if they aren't explained as to why they are wrong, instead of just saying they are a sin?
Ethics and morals are behavioral principles in humans that determine what is right and what is wrong. As per the belief of a common man, Christianity is a religion that is bound by a certain set of rules and regulations that have been imposed by the Almighty. A Christian is required to follow these principles that impose a sense of morality and a specific ethical behavior in the individual.
Ethical practices in Christianity evolved during the Roman era. This was the period when early Christians were a part of Roman Empire. Ethics in Christianity are primarily centered on grace, mercy and forgiveness. A Christian is expected to have thoughts and deeds that are respectable and honorable and must abstain from doing any sins. The three virtues indicated in Bible include faith, hope and love. However, another four cardinal virtues were adapted by Aquinas that includes justice, courage, temperament and prudence.
You`re right. These acts of morals should be common sense, so why should you need a God to make it all complete? I`ve only been a part of this site for two hours or so, and I love it here!
Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on. However, the idea of an intelligent creator is simply ridiculous. I`ll go as far as too hear a lesson on kindness from the bible, but I can`t deal with the fact that some of us humans believe in magic. But does that mean we disregard the bible completely? Bill Gates forbid. We should look at the morals and ethics represented in Christianity, and actually USE it.
Feel free to discuss anything you disagree with, I`m up for discussion.
:-|
what parts of the bible should we take our morals from that a reasonable person doesn't already understand?
Such morals as self sacrifice for other`s benefit, humility, just generic ways of being respectful I guess. But you`re right, most life morals are common sense. And have you noticed that a Christian cannot technically be moral? Being respectful and generous for self benefit does not make you a godly person, it makes you insincere. I like you, you know what you`re talking about.
Quote from: "Pretentious"I like you, you know what you`re talking about.[/color]
good, send me front and back scans of all your credit cards please.
Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Pretentious"I like you, you know what you`re talking about.[/color]
good, send me front and back scans of all your credit cards please.
My credit card number is 4.
Welcome! :-D
That being said, could you explain why, or where we could find morals taught in the bible?
QuoteLeviticus 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
This moral obligation seems to suggest I, and every other atheist here should present ourselves to those who would stone us to death. Guess what? I ain't gonna do it. :twisted:
Aesop's fables are better moral guides than the bible is. In my humble opinion.
Still, welcome and hope we don't scare you away. I for one love to think about ideas which are different from mine.
Quote from: "Pretentious"Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Pretentious"I like you, you know what you`re talking about.[/color]
good, send me front and back scans of all your credit cards please.
My credit card number is 4.
this will take a lot of posts...
why is self sacrifice for other's benefit a moral? seems pretty nebulous.
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"This moral obligation seems to suggest I, and every other atheist here should present ourselves to those who would stone us to death. Guess what? I ain't gonna do it.
I understand you`re opinion. However, I`m not stating that we should follow the bible in its entirety. I`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD. Morals such as self-sacrifice for other`s gain and being respectful to everyone. Of course, doing these things don`t label you as a follower of christ. Just as a person that isn`t a religious hypocritical mess. You see, Christians try to do it for self gain, in which, counter acts the morality of God as insincerity. We atheists can do it just be actual moral people.
Quote from: "Pretentious"I understand you`re opinion. However, I`m not stating that we should follow the bible in its entirety. I`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD. Morals such as self-sacrifice for other`s gain and being respectful to everyone. Of course, doing these things don`t label you as a follower of christ. Just as a person that isn`t a religious hypocritical mess. You see, Christians try to do it for self gain, in which, counter acts the morality of God as insincerity. We atheists can do it just be actual moral people.
this post makes zero sense.
you are stating people should cherry pick parts of the bible? that already happens.
following morals that should be common sense without a god??? Atheists are already doing this.
Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Pretentious"I understand you`re opinion. However, I`m not stating that we should follow the bible in its entirety. I`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD. Morals such as self-sacrifice for other`s gain and being respectful to everyone. Of course, doing these things don`t label you as a follower of christ. Just as a person that isn`t a religious hypocritical mess. You see, Christians try to do it for self gain, in which, counter acts the morality of God as insincerity. We atheists can do it just be actual moral people.
this post makes zero sense.
you are stating people should cherry pick parts of the bible? that already happens.
following morals that should be common sense without a god??? Atheists are already doing this.
I`m not making this an announcement to smart Atheists like you, I`m stating this for the RADICAL atheists that mistake all morale acts as a label of the bible. YOU know the difference Surley. But believe me, there are Atheists like this that exist.
Quote from: "Pretentious"I`m not making this an announcement to smart Atheists like you, I`m stating this for the RADICAL atheists that mistake all morale acts as a label of the bible. YOU know the difference Surley. But believe me, there are Atheists like this that exist.
whaaaaa????
talk to me if i'm not that smart.
Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals,
Quote from: "Psalm 137:8 - 9"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Morals are somewhat relative.
Is the bible moral? I would say it was possibly more moral for the time and place it was written.... about 2000 years ago. Obviously less now than it was then.
Keep in mind when a religion is formed, it puts it's local culture in the mythology, that's partially why Christianity is so divided even within it's self. There is a countless amount of sub religions all with different morals.
Pretentious wrote in part:
QuoteI`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD.
Then why do we need the bible or any other holy book?
It also seems to me, that common sense isn't all that common. Just consider all of the logical fallacies we all fall into everyday. And yes, atheists are guilty of logical fallacies too.
Personally, I like Sam Harris's idea of having morals determined using scientific methods. While I am not entirely clear as to how he thinks this should be done, despite reading his book about it, I do have an idea of how it might be done.
Scientific method is hypothesis, test, test, test, draw a conclusion, publish, peer review. Simplified, but general idea. Say we wanted to define when killing is justified and just plain murder. The hypothesis would be killing another person is murder, except when the following conditions apply. We would then use history to determine when killing wasn't considered murder and the ramifications of when it was and wasn't considered murder. That is the testing portion. Studying as objectively as possible all of the outcomes of the various cases. Which by necessity would be limited. We would draw a conclusion, then publish for the world at large what we concluded. The world at large, would then study the same cases and tell us where they thought we were wrong or right. A consensus would then be what we as people would hold as being moral.
Makes more sense to me then cherry picky a two thousand year-old book, then relying on "common sense" to decide something's moral position. Or allowing the bought and payed for congress to decide.
Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"Pretentious wrote in part: QuoteI`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD.
Then why do we need the bible or any other holy book?
It also seems to me, that common sense isn't all that common. Just consider all of the logical fallacies we all fall into everyday. And yes, atheists are guilty of logical fallacies too.
Personally, I like Sam Harris's idea of having morals determined using scientific methods. While I am not entirely clear as to how he thinks this should be done, despite reading his book about it, I do have an idea of how it might be done.
Scientific method is hypothesis, test, test, test, draw a conclusion, publish, peer review. Simplified, but general idea. Say we wanted to define when killing is justified and just plain murder. The hypothesis would be killing another person is murder, except when the following conditions apply. We would then use history to determine when killing wasn't considered murder and the ramifications of when it was and wasn't considered murder. That is the testing portion. Studying as objective as possible all of the outcomes of the various cases. Which by necessity would be limited. We would draw a conclusion, then publish for the world at large what we concluded. The world at large, would then study the same cases and tell us where they thought we were wrong or right. A consensus would then be what we as people would hold as being moral.
Makes more sense to me then cherry picky a two thousand year-old book, then relying on "common sense" to decide something's moral position.
That is the point. We don't need them. Holy books (with an exception of "though shall not kill") aren't common sense. If you need a book to tell you that you shouldn't kill other people, I don't care if it's 6000 years, 2000 years, 2 years old.... you are an idiot and you are probably retarded or brainwashed (or a combination of the two). It's not common sense now to kill a bird and use it's blood to heal skin disease.
It's called supernatural because it's NOT natural.
I think you should start over, this is going downhill despite your backpedaling. Do not get discouraged, many here hang people before we ask where they are from.
Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on. However, the idea of an intelligent creator is simply ridiculous. I`ll go as far as too hear a lesson on kindness from the bible, but I can`t deal with the fact that some of us humans believe in magic. But does that mean we disregard the bible completely? Bill Gates forbid. We should look at the morals and ethics represented in Christianity, and actually USE it.
Feel free to discuss anything you disagree with, I`m up for discussion.
:-|
NOOOOOO WAAAAAAY! The bible for morals? Get real. Morals, ethics, morays all come from society, not the bible. Letting the theist hijack morals is like letting Hitler decide right and wrong. Oh sure Hitler did some good things, but we shouldn't accept those because you have to accept everything else as a consequence.
Quote from: "aitm"I think you should start over, this is going downhill despite your backpedaling. Do not get discouraged, many here hang people before we ask where they are from.
*Deep breaths*
How are you, Pretentious? :-D
note: I wasn't mad at you I got worked up from the topic..... plus the massive amount of caffeine I had today from black tea.
1) Please stop the rainbow. There's no reason to post in color (especially since at least one of the colors you chose is almost impossible for some people to see without highlighting it).
2) The NT is just as immoral as the OT. (Things like condoning slavery, condemning cripples.)
2) Not a single good moral in either part of the Bible started in the Bible - it's all restatement of earlier morals. The Golden Rule, for instance, (which is a terrible rule to follow, but good for its time) is at least as old as Hammurabi (1790 BCE), while organized religion itself goes back about 12,000 years (and maybe more).
So if we totally dismiss the Bible, both OT and NT (neither one is the oldest, the newest, the best - or anything of note), and just choose good morals, we'll do just fine.
Another question about morality: Who's morality do we follow? What society's or religious groups morality do we follow. There are primitive tribes that still enable any men of the tribe to deflower a girl when she becomes of age and don't have a problem with it. In the Middle East that have moral standards based on religious Scriptures that are anything but moral in my opinion. There are groups of Christian religious sects that think it is perfectly moral to marry 12 year old girls in our own country. And don't forget the abortion foes that like to bomb abortion clinics and kill legal abortionists based on the bible. Solitary
(//http://i.imgur.com/2LNBJ8C.jpg)
Quote from: "Pretentious"Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, But does that mean we disregard the bible completely? Bill Gates forbid. We should look at the morals and ethics represented in Christianity, and actually USE it.
Feel free to discuss anything you disagree with, I`m up for discussion.
:-|
Ok, well I feel a little bad, since it seems like we are picking on you a lot already, but here's my shekels worth :
First I have an issue with the idea of mining the bible for the good morality and ethics lessons. My issue is that those morals keep changing from place to place and time to time. For instance 1968 Virginia. A state supreme Court judge uses god to justify keeping interracial marriage illegal. He says god put us on different continents, so he must have meant for us not to mix (darn shame he wasn't around 400 or so years earlier, he could have explained that to those uneducated slave traders).
Today we have the same kind of argument going on about same sex marriage. People who are against it go right to the bible (both old and new testaments) and say "god don't roll that way". People in favor go to jesus and say "he all about we must love one another". In another 20 years most everybody under 70 will say "it's all good" and will find bible passages to confirm that.
In another thread someone posted a youtube video featuring an 11 year old girl who ran away from home because her mom wanted to marry her off. Ok, they were probably Muslim, but they could have been christian and still found justification in the bible. By the way, if you haven't seen it yet you should. This girl should be put straight into law school. Either she is the most articulate 11 year old I have ever seen, or the translator is taking a lot of liberties with the translation.
Anyway my ramblings are trying to convey the idea that the bible gives anybody that wants to enough ammunition to justify either side of way too many positions.
Welcome aboard by the way.
Welcome to the snake pit. I'll pray for your survival.
wait
I don't pray. :rollin:
Just kidding. As for your premise that we find Good stuff in the bible? erm....... ok.............. but why would we bother with that? If we're gonna have to cherry-pick from the bible's pages that which we Can follow and that which we cannot follow - well we're no further along with that book than anyone else. I'd rather read Huck Finn and garner some humanist skills from its pages myself.
Anywho - hope you hang around. As a general rule - if you can abide your first beating here and Not lose your sense of humor - you'll like it here fine.
I was burned at the stake my first couple of days here too. I gotz me no scars --- here ever since -- Cheers :-D
Potatoes.
(//http://24.media.tumblr.com/ce3ad07603c33e7a8e86c90089c2b3a4/tumblr_mnvgi9MGUH1stdmcbo1_400.gif)
Quote from: "Solitary"Another question about morality: Who's morality do we follow?
The same morality we'd follow if we cherry-picked the Bible. We just don't need the Bible to do it.
Or we can each go out and get a few slaves. (The Bible says that's just fine.)
Quote from: "Pretentious"Quote from: "surly74"Quote from: "Pretentious"I like you, you know what you`re talking about.[/color]
good, send me front and back scans of all your credit cards please.
My credit card number is 4.
Wow, you must be REALLY old! Welcome to the forum!
If we really cherry-picked the Bible...made a sort of Jefferson Bible that includes both the OT and NT, with only the most moral teachings...it would be a pretty short book, but a lot of what you had left would be in really beautiful language. I think at least one parable would survive intact, it was about a Samaritan and who is your neighbor.
Yeah.
I'm putting Rainbow Brite on ignore.
I don't need this shit.
I didn't know we had red font.
Awesome shit