I don't consider myself an atheist or a theist. I'm just a lost wanderer in the wilderness trying to make some sense of the world around me. And so far without much success. And I need some atheist opinions here.
I recently posed to two different and unrelated theist discussion groups a question that has bugged me for lack of any answer for many years. To them it was posed as follows:
Assumptions: God exists, God knows everything that ever was, is now, and will be in the future. God can communicate with His human creations. And finally that I have free will to make decisions as I want, and to change my mind as to whether or not I will do some doable thing, now or in the future.
To these they all agree. Now the questions:
Does God know something I will do in the future, such as go to Heaven or Hell. They answer yes.
Could God write this knowledge down? Most say of course he could. A couple say yes but he wouldn't. A few even said God doesn't have hands!
Could I read what he has written down? Here they either become evasive or give me a thousand word essay on things they seem to have memorized in some religion class.
Then if I know where He says I will go, if He said Hell, could I not either immediately reform my life and attain Heaven? Or if he said Heaven, could I not become of my own free will a vicious mass murderer, then quickly commit suicide unrepentant and go to Hell.
I think this string of questions tends to show that either God does not know all future events, or I do not have free will
The best answer they seem to come up with is that although my logic may be correct, God is above and beyond logic, that He does not have to play according to the human laws of logic. Apparently he makes His own rules.
Any serious opinions? Thanks
You figured it out :) It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.
It's impossible to be the final arbiter over your own actions if somebody else knows what you're doing and has the power to stop you; everything you do is then by the grace of that person allowing it. And it's even more impossible to be able to decide for yourself if someone else already knows what's going to happen; that would require them to know what you're going to do before you do, which means you aren't freely deciding to do it anymore; you're doing something predestined.
(Omnipotence itself is also impossible, as demonstrated by the simple paradox: "Could god create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?".)
And obviously they will come up with "god is beyond logic", because that's their default answer to anyone pointing out a situation that is clearly logically impossible. It's a cop-out non-answer. Just remember whenever someone gives you an answer to a question: if that answer can be used on literally any question askable, it's not actually an answer at all. All answers must narrow down possibilities to have any kind of usefulness. As soon as someone refuses to give you an answer that narrows things down, it shows he doesn't know what he's talking about (and trying to hide that fact, or he'd just have said "I don't know").
God as we humans know it cannot exist. It defies all logic and is utterly impossible. Your question is a good one for Religious groups that pull answers frequently from their rectum's. Here though, most of us don't believe in God so it is quite hard for me at least to answer your questions that are about what he would do.
All this is resolved if you see God as a fictional character.
:twisted:
Quote from: "Plu"You figured it out :) It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.
It's impossible to be the final arbiter over your own actions if somebody else knows what you're doing and has the power to stop you; everything you do is then by the grace of that person allowing it. And it's even more impossible to be able to decide for yourself if someone else already knows what's going to happen; that would require them to know what you're going to do before you do, which means you aren't freely deciding to do it anymore; you're doing something predestined.
(Omnipotence itself is also impossible, as demonstrated by the simple paradox: "Could god create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?".)
And obviously they will come up with "god is beyond logic", because that's their default answer to anyone pointing out a situation that is clearly logically impossible. It's a cop-out non-answer. Just remember whenever someone gives you an answer to a question: if that answer can be used on literally any question askable, it's not actually an answer at all. All answers must narrow down possibilities to have any kind of usefulness. As soon as someone refuses to give you an answer that narrows things down, it shows he doesn't know what he's talking about (and trying to hide that fact, or he'd just have said "I don't know").
Agreed. And that paradox, I had told that to a few of my irl friends and they all just said "We humans can never understand the way God works." :roll:
A better question to ask is "What's a god?" They have no answer.
Ah you have finally stopped your aimless wandering and reached the impass that everyone should reach. A god cannot exist because there is absolutely no reason for it to exist. If we have free will then there is no need for a god. If we don't have free will then there is no need for us to exist. Since we exist there can be no god.
You have hit upon on of many tenants of religion (at least many religions) that makes no scene and the fact that the best answers anyone can give you is, in essence, tossing word-salad at you in the hope that something will stick betrays that the position is indefensible.
I've heard some real head-scratchers as explanations--but ones that appear satisfactory if you just accept what the pastor says and never bother to think or examine--god said it i believe it that settles it; just keep repeating it till you believe it :wink: . I was once told that god knows all your possible future choices, just not which one you will chose. When I asked, "So god doesn't know what I'm going to do in the future?" I was told "no, god knows what you will do, just not which what you'll choose". If you can make heads or tails out of that your a better philosopher than me.
Of course, if we accept (for the sake of argument) that the bible is an accurate description, god does not appear particularly concerned about free will. Pharaoh, Paul/Saul, Balaam, all the people is Sodom and Gomorrah, ect. I've had people try to explain that away by saying people forfeit their free will when they disobey god, which sounds to me like "you can have a car painted any colour you want, so long as it is black". If you are only allowed free will as long as you make 1 choice only, you don't actually have free will.
Now, predestination or some type of entirely non-interventionist god or a god with limited knowledge may (I do stress may) avoid this problem of free will and godly foreknowledge, but I'm not even convinced of that.
Quote from: "Plu"You figured it out :) It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.
Depends on how you look at it I guess. If I could see every possible future for you, but I intervened and showed you your actual future, you could see yourself move through that timeline with the knowledge I was giving you. You'd make every choice with free will, but your path and destination would be the same.
What'll really bake your noodle later is the question, would you have still taken that path if I hadn't shown you what was going to happen?
But if you intervene and show me my future, and I decide to take a different path? You'd have made the wrong prediction. You'd have to know I'd do something different from what I was shown. Which means you didn't predict the correct future. In fact, cannot predict the right future because I will take a different path just out of stubborness.
If I have free will, you can't tell me my future, because I can (and will) take a different path just to piss you off.
QuoteAssumptions: God exists, God knows everything that ever was, is now, and will be in the future. God can communicate with His human creations. And finally that I have free will to make decisions as I want, and to change my mind as to whether or not I will do some doable thing, now or in the future.
To start with, you are basing the argument on an unproven assumption. There is no evidence that supports this.
As to predetermination- yes. An all powerful all knowing god would know your future and your destiny. That being the case, any action you take is one already determined. God would know if you are bound for heaven or hell, which totally negates free will. So any action you take is known and predetermined. So if your penchant is to party on, have at it. :-D
In reality, assuming no God, true free will is questionable; we are all influenced by our genetic makeup, our environment, our history and so on. So to believe that there is true free will is problematic and an entire debate by itself.
From my standpoint, doing what I do amounts to free agency because I choose to, nothing more. With absence of any evidence to support your first assumption, I feel no obligation to adhere to any ethos simply out of fear of punishment. So, like I said, party on.
Quote from: "laocmo"Apparently he makes His own rules.
Most theists do that as well.
Omnipotence:
[youtube:3uxw60v2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEizq6iK_zA[/youtube:3uxw60v2]
Omniscience:
[youtube:3uxw60v2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vauFcJAnnTY[/youtube:3uxw60v2]
QuoteAssumptions: God exists,
correction; Many Gods exist........or none. You cannot find ample evidence for one or two or a hundred, yet you find evidence for none.
> It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.
Not true, provided the god lies. Since we know the god of the Bible lies (he lied to Adam - "You will surely die this day") it is entirely possible that this same god could know the future, but lie to a supplicant.
Frank
QuoteAny serious opinions? Thanks
Do you consider their gibberish to be "serious?"
Fictional writers give their creations whatever powers they can dream up. Superman is faster than a speeding bullet, you know.
Before I worry at all about what "god" can do one of those clowns would have to demonstrate by providing evidence that his god (or any god) actually exists.
Quote from: "FrankDK"> It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.
Not true, provided the god lies. Since we know the god of the Bible lies (he lied to Adam - "You will surely die this day") it is entirely possible that this same god could know the future, but lie to a supplicant.
Frank
But I still wouldn't be making the decisions if they're already decided for me. At best I'd have the illusion of free will.
Quote from: "Plu"But if you intervene and show me my future, and I decide to take a different path? You'd have made the wrong prediction. You'd have to know I'd do something different from what I was shown. Which means you didn't predict the correct future. In fact, cannot predict the right future because I will take a different path just out of stubborness.
If I intervened and showed you your future and you decided to take a different path, then that would be the future that I would show you. (possibly including having this meta-discussion while I was showing it to you).
Quote from: "Plu"If I have free will, you can't tell me my future, because I can (and will) take a different path just to piss you off.
If I can see all possible futures for you, then I can see the possible future where I show you your future where you try and take a different path to just piss me off. All of those future decisions that you will make (it doesn't matter that those decisions are now tainted by foreknowledge) will be of your own free will.
Of course, I could just lie and show you the possible future that leads you to make choices to live a better happier life. But then are the choices you'd make in that future any more or less free? Because you're going to make those choices anyway, even if it's just motivated by the desire to piss me off.
QuoteIf I intervened and showed you your future and you decided to take a different path, then that would be the future that I would show you.
This is logically impossible. If you tell me I'm going to do X at time Y, then when time Y comes, I'm going to do something other than X. If you'd have told me that I was going to do this new X, then I would've done yet another X. You can't tell me my future without locking in my actions to the shown path, otherwise what you tell me will be incorrect when I decide to do something different than what you told me. It's irrelevant what X is; if you make any specific claim, then there'll be a point where I can decide to do something else.
QuoteIf I can see all possible futures for you,
If you can see all possible futures, you know nothing special. It's far too much information to do anything useful with, and it doesn't help anyone. It also cannot be disproven, really. It's only a worthwhile talent if you can actually predict a specific future event, and that's only possible if the path is already locked in so it cannot change anymore.
(Although perhaps, before even getting into the whole "free will" and "predicting the future" thing, we should first figure out how time even works, and what the basic idea behind "free will", or even how "consciousness operates". It's all pretty meta now because we don't have really strong definitions.)
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteIf I intervened and showed you your future and you decided to take a different path, then that would be the future that I would show you.
This is logically impossible. If you tell me I'm going to do X at time Y, then when time Y comes, I'm going to do something other than X. If you'd have told me that I was going to do this new X, then I would've done yet another X. You can't tell me my future without locking in my actions to the shown path, otherwise what you tell me will be incorrect when I decide to do something different than what you told me. It's irrelevant what X is; if you make any specific claim, then there'll be a point where I can decide to do something else.
If I show you that you'll do X at time Y, and you decide to attempt to do something different, then wouldn't the future I'd shown you contain a you trying to do something different but ultimately having to resort to X anyway?
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteIf I can see all possible futures for you,
If you can see all possible futures, you know nothing special. It's far too much information to do anything useful with, and it doesn't help anyone. It also cannot be disproven, really. It's only a worthwhile talent if you can actually predict a specific future event, and that's only possible if the path is already locked in so it cannot change anymore.
(Although perhaps, before even getting into the whole "free will" and "predicting the future" thing, we should first figure out how time even works, and what the basic idea behind "free will", or even how "consciousness operates". It's all pretty meta now because we don't have really strong definitions.)
I guess impossible futures would cover the ones where you knew exactly what your future was going to be yet tried to prevent it from happening :D
QuoteIf I show you that you'll do X at time Y, and you decide to attempt to do something different, then wouldn't the future I'd shown you contain a you trying to do something different but ultimately having to resort to X anyway?
That's requiring the past to be rewritten when I do something different. Which, as far as we know, isn't possible. The action I'm taking at point X is directly related to having received certain information when you told me my future. If you change what was said back then; I automatically take a different action in the new future.
And if I'm forced to resort to doing what you told me in the past, then apparently I don't have a choice in it, because you know it was going to happen before I was even aware a choice existed. So I don't have free will to choose.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteIf I show you that you'll do X at time Y, and you decide to attempt to do something different, then wouldn't the future I'd shown you contain a you trying to do something different but ultimately having to resort to X anyway?
That's requiring the past to be rewritten when I do something different. Which, as far as we know, isn't possible. The action I'm taking at point X is directly related to having received certain information when you told me my future. If you change what was said back then; I automatically take a different action in the new future.
And if I'm forced to resort to doing what you told me in the past, then apparently I don't have a choice in it, because you know it was going to happen before I was even aware a choice existed. So I don't have free will to choose.
You had free will to choose what you had for breakfast this morning. But you can't change it. What makes you think that the future is any more malleable than the past?
Who says I even believe in free will? :P
I'm just saying free will isn't compatible with someone who knows everything. You cannot at the same time know everything that's going to happen and give other people the ability to choose what's going to happen.
The idea of religious free will is that I can pick my path in life. But how can I choose anything, if there's someone who already knows what's going to happen?
It's a bit like saying characters in a book have free will. The story is already written and nothing they do can change anything. They don't have free will. They just do what the great mind that knows all tells them to do. On the other hand, improvisational theater gives its characters free will, which is why nobody can predict how the show will go. But you can't have both.
Quote from: "Plu"Who says I even believe in free will? :P
I'm just saying free will isn't compatible with someone who knows everything. You cannot at the same time know everything that's going to happen and give other people the ability to choose what's going to happen.
The idea of religious free will is that I can pick my path in life. But how can I choose anything, if there's someone who already knows what's going to happen?
It's a bit like saying characters in a book have free will. The story is already written and nothing they do can change anything. They don't have free will. They just do what the great mind that knows all tells them to do. On the other hand, improvisational theater gives its characters free will, which is why nobody can predict how the show will go. But you can't have both.
I actually agree with you. I don't think that it's possible for someone to know everything. Thanks to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle we know that some knowledge about reality is mutually exclusive. Without that knowledge, someone wouldn't have a perfect view of the future, and so would be unable to predict it outside of the bounds of that certainty.
QuoteGod is above and beyond logic, that He does not have to play according to the human laws of logic.
That says it all. We understand logic from our experiences of reality. God is suppose to interfere with reality, in fact He made it. If this is so than He would have to obey his own laws and not have freewill, or He doesn't have the ability to interfere with reality, so it's the same as if He didn't exist.
If it is true He is beyond logic, then how could anyone know him unless they were being illogical? Any contradiction proves they both can't be true.
A square can't be a circle, A God can't be logical if He destroys His own Creations, for example. And if He isn't logical how could He decide logically who goes to heaven or hell? We all see how illogical believers can be with their actions and hypocrisies, and they hope there God will be illogical as they are so they can go to heaven even if they are sinners. Solitary
I wonder if the guy will come back to read all this, by the way :) It's a fun discussion but kinda futile if he doesn't show back up :P
I don't know who you mean by the "guy" to come back. But I'm the original poster and I've never left. The first several answers I liked, they made sense. I'm a little lost with the last few though. I wouldn't change anything in my OP after reading all the later posts. Reading things by people who appreciate and accept logic is very refreshing after some of the nonsense I read in answer to my post to the theist groups. How they can write a thousand word answer that is basically a lot of meaningless words no doubt memorized from some book is beyond me. And stating that God is beyond and above logic is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'd tell them that, but all that would result in is 1000 more meaningless words and maybe a prayer or two for my soul's salvation.
Quote from: "laocmo"I don't know who you mean by the "guy" to come back. But I'm the original poster and I've never left. The first several answers I liked, they made sense. I'm a little lost with the last few though. I wouldn't change anything in my OP after reading all the later posts. Reading things by people who appreciate and accept logic is very refreshing after some of the nonsense I read in answer to my post to the theist groups. How they can write a thousand word answer that is basically a lot of meaningless words no doubt memorized from some book is beyond me. And stating that God is beyond and above logic is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'd tell them that, but all that would result in is 1000 more meaningless words and maybe a prayer or two for my soul's salvation.
hahahahah, LMAO at the prayer thing,
they tend to do that a lot don't they xD
QuoteI don't know who you mean by the "guy" to come back.
I meant you, since I hadn't seen you post again I feared you might've left :) Good to hear you got some use out of our posts. And sorry if others are a bit complex, we do tend to get a little enthusiastic some times. If you want anything further elaborated, do tell.
Quote from: "Plu"And obviously they will come up with "god is beyond logic", because that's their default answer to anyone pointing out a situation that is clearly logically impossible. It's a cop-out non-answer.
Sure is. It's the "you just don't understand....omg....OMG you just don't 'get it'!" answer they always give and can't give any other reasonable answer after this is said.
Good luck in your quest. As to your question, it does tend to presuppose that God would let you see the answer. He, of course, wouldn't.
Another way of looking at omniscience would be to think of it as a casino owner. In a casino, the house knows that over time their slot machines will bring in say for instance eight percent return. You could call this omniscience if you were defining it broadly enough. They don't know how each person will do, or even how much they'll make in a given day. But they know they can set the machines up in such a way that over time they will receive $8 for each hundred that are put in their machines.
For my part I've found it impossible to believe in or even respect a god who would create us, pretend to love us, but send us to an eternal pit of hell for not choosing the right god to believe in. Not all Christians believe that, but many do. The god we end up accepting is so often the god of our family, friends and culture that it all seems ridiculous to me.
Quote from: "Plu"Who says I even believe in free will? :P
I'm just saying free will isn't compatible with someone who knows everything. You cannot at the same time know everything that's going to happen and give other people the ability to choose what's going to happen.
The idea of religious free will is that I can pick my path in life. But how can I choose anything, if there's someone who already knows what's going to happen?
It's a bit like saying characters in a book have free will. The story is already written and nothing they do can change anything. They don't have free will. They just do what the great mind that knows all tells them to do. On the other hand, improvisational theater gives its characters free will, which is why nobody can predict how the show will go. But you can't have both.
It's actually really simple. Though you have the choice to do something, given the information/experiences you have + emotional state, etc. you can really only do one thing in a certain situation. Even if you could play it back, unless you give yourself new input or new information you'll do the very same thing. So with the modern understanding of how "free will" works it is "possible" for someone to know everything you'll ever do without affecting your free will.
In most theistic religious dogma it's impossible however - as the deity is the creator/author and therefor wrote your path when creating you exactly the way it did. If there's also a hell and it creates you knowing you'll go there you can also question it's morality (though tons of gods have been shown to be evil, sadistic pricks even by their own doctrine). However, that aside, as long as you/your brain is what's selecting your choices you could have "free will", or perhaps better phrased "independent will" at the same time as someone/something could know everything you'd ever do.
Quotealthough my logic may be correct, God is above and beyond logic, that He does not have to play according to the human laws of logic. Apparently he makes His own rules.
This is the part where you say farewell and move on to more intellectually stimulating pursuits. No amount of philosophy or logic is sufficient to answer a question you might have when they can arbitrarily move the goalposts like that. I hate to say it, but I foresaw what their answer to your line of questioning was going to be. I've been there myself. Good luck sorting through your own thoughts and beliefs, Eric.
> But I still wouldn't be making the decisions if they're already decided for me. At best I'd have the illusion of free will.
There's a difference between decisions already being decided for you, and someone knowing what decisions you will make.
I believe we only have the illusion of free will, however. The brain is a deterministic mechanism, and it is what does our deciding for us. It gives us the illusion of making a conscious decision, but current neurophysiological evidence shows pretty clearly that the brain decides before we have the feeling of making up our minds.
Frank
QuoteThere's a difference between decisions already being decided for you, and someone knowing what decisions you will make.
Like what? (Again, I don't believe in biblical free will either, but if we assume that it's real)
How is there any option of being able to freely decide, if the choice you are going to make is already set in stone (which would be a requirement for someone to reliably determine what choice you're going to make)
I mean; sorta-kinda accurate predictions is one thing, but definately knowing would require that I cannot deviate from the path he knows of at any time, otherwise he couldn't be certain. And if there's only one path to take, I don't have any choices to make.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteThere's a difference between decisions already being decided for you, and someone knowing what decisions you will make.
Like what? (Again, I don't believe in biblical free will either, but if we assume that it's real)
How is there any option of being able to freely decide, if the choice you are going to make is already set in stone (which would be a requirement for someone to reliably determine what choice you're going to make)
I mean; sorta-kinda accurate predictions is one thing, but definately knowing would require that I cannot deviate from the path he knows of at any time, otherwise he couldn't be certain. And if there's only one path to take, I don't have any choices to make.
Because your wiring is set up in such a way that the question of wether "free will" exists is highly debateable. It's your brain, not your concious self that makes the choices. You are still making "choices", but "you" work in such a way that your logic, compassion, patience, temper, etc. will only produce one result based on the info you have and the mental state you are in. This would presumably be true regardless if your concious self was 100% in control of your choices. You are you, and what you like, feel and are like will decide what you do in any given situation.
In other words, you (if "you" includes your brain) makes the decisions/choices, and yes, you genuinly make them - but unless you had different info/was in a different mental state you'd have made the same decision in that scenario every time.
As long as whatever knows everything you will ever do did not contribute (in any way) to your thought process or situations your choices will be 100% independent of it - and therefor your own. Wether or not we'll describe this as free will is another question entirely.
QuoteThis is the part where you say farewell and move on to more intellectually stimulating pursuits. No amount of philosophy or logic is sufficient to answer a question you might have when they can arbitrarily move the goalposts like that...... Good luck sorting through your own thoughts and beliefs, Eric.
How right you are Eric! I was like that at one time way back before I became brave enough to question some of the things I was forced to memorize as a kid in religion class. Once I admitted to myself that some belief I had learned was dead wrong, and admitting that was the scariest thing I ever did,(expecting a bolt of lightening to take me at any minute), I found that it was refreshing to look at things rationally and not believe them just because I was told to. I can never go back. But to this day I feel a bit of trepidation because back then I was warned that my pride and arrogance in not blindly accepting all I had learned might someday lead to my damnation.
QuoteBut to this day I feel a bit of trepidation because back then I was warned that my pride and arrogance in not blindly accepting all I had learned might someday lead to my damnation.
The religious have had thousands of years to perfect the art of keeping people in line. They're really good at it. Expect it to occasionally sting.
Just remind yourself: 2500 years of searching, 0 evidence.
> Like what? (Again, I don't believe in biblical free will either, but if we assume that it's real)
How is there any option of being able to freely decide, if the choice you are going to make is already set in stone (which would be a requirement for someone to reliably determine what choice you're going to make)
> I mean; sorta-kinda accurate predictions is one thing, but definately knowing would require that I cannot deviate from the path he knows of at any time, otherwise he couldn't be certain. And if there's only one path to take, I don't have any choices to make.
If some creature or machine existed outside our space and time, and could look at the future, then it would know what decisions you were going to make. It isn't set in stone; you can make any decision you want. But the creature or machine would know what decision you are going to make.
The ability to see the future implies all kinds of seeming (and maybe real) paradoxes, and this is one of them. Suppose I had such a machine, and said that I could predict what you would order at a restaurant. I would turn on the machine, check on your choice, write it down, and put the note in an envelope. When we got there, and you made your choice, I could produce the envelope with the correct prediction inside. However, I couldn't tell you in advance, because then you would order something else.
The question that remains is, if I did tell you, and you changed your mind, would I have gotten the correct view the first time I used the machine, or would the future be changed? The only solution for this is if I never tell you what the machine indicated, or if I lie about it. Once you as the actor know what actions you are predicted to take, it would be easy to vary from that path.
Frank
Frank