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Hey, my name is Will. Just awkwardly introducing myself....

Things about me:

*I love road cycling
*I'm in the process of changing my degree to an associates in Communications (originally Business Administration - Hr management)
*I've lived in the same house (in the country) for my whole life (19 years).
*I'm a Christian

I'm in the awkward stage in life where all my friends from high school are going to colleges in other states (sometimes even different countries) so in real life I don't really have anyone to talk to anymore. And I live in the country in the middle of nowhere so it's not like I can go out and readily meet new people. So I'd love to make some new friends here!

Welcome aboard. Aren't you going to a college somewhere yourself?

Yep, I'm going to a small community college about 19 miles away. The atmosphere isn't that friendly though.

You didn't want to go to a big college? You'd think that people would want to go to a college with a good atmosphere, if they could :)

I would love to, however, funds are not there. Tuition is only $1,500 or so per semester and I'm barely able to pay for that, as my parents aren't giving me financial support. I do have a job, but I'm also paying for car payments and whatnot. And I can't get a lone without a co-signer, and my parent's debt is so high that I got denied lones. So, unfortunately this is my only option. :p

Ah, sucks then :) Hope you can at least land a good job when you're done with college.

greetings.

Welcome aboard will power! Be prepared to be flamed, we even do it to atheist we don't agree with here.  :shock:  :rollin:  Solitary

Be sure to barbecue kittens, record the NFL without their permission and rip the tags off of your mattress.

[-X  Let's be nice until he starts to proselytize. He may be "sin"cere. Solitary

Welcome. I minored in Communications. What is your employment goal?

Quote from: "Solitary"Welcome aboard will power! Be prepared to be flamed, we even do it to atheist we don't agree with here.  :shock:  :rollin:  Solitary

Haha it's alright, people flame others in any community - Christian communities included. I'm used to it by now. :)

EDIT:

Quote from: "stromboli"Welcome. I minored in Communications. What is your employment goal?

Thanks! My employment goal is hopefully to be a Customer service representative. I can still go into HR management with an associates in communications if I changed my mind, although business admin would look better on a resume for hr. I chose Communications simply because I can't afford 4 years of business admin, and I personally would enjoy a communications degree better than business admin.

Even An Associates Degree looks good on a resume. I ended up working for the Defense Department, finally as an editor on technical publications.

About that communications degree

http://youtu.be/aDMKXFeBNVU (http://youtu.be/aDMKXFeBNVU)

Quote from: "Jmpty"About that communications degree

http://youtu.be/aDMKXFeBNVU (http://youtu.be/aDMKXFeBNVU)

Which is why I worked for the government, lol.

Welcome man.
Any special reason why you joined an atheist board as a christian ?

Quote from: "bada94"Welcome man.
Any special reason why you joined an atheist board as a christian ?

Same reason atheists join Christian boards, I would imagine. It's an endless source of entertainment.

Quote from: "Solitary"Welcome aboard will power! Be prepared to be flamed, we even do it to atheist we don't agree with here.  :shock:  :rollin:  Solitary

Nah, I wouldn't worry about being flamed unless you start blindly judging people like that last guy that came in. As long as you can hold an objective conversation you should be good. And at that point if you still get flamed... well... it's possible the other guy is an asshole.

Although, thinking objectively is what turned me atheist in the first place...

Anyway,

Welcome Will Power! :)
btw... Does that name have anything to do with the Indy driver? or just your personal drive?

Quote from: "PickelledEggs"Welcome Will Power! :)
btw... Does that name have anything to do with the Indy driver? or just your personal drive?

Nope, it's actually my nick name. My last name (which I'm obviously not sharing :p) sounds close to power if said fast which is how it came to be my nick name.

Quote from: "bada94"Welcome man.
Any special reason why you joined an atheist board as a christian ?

Thanks! Well, I wouldn't particularly place this as strictly an atheist forum, as the banner itself says "A community for freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and believers." However, I joined this forum to diversify my communication with other people with different cultures and beliefs. This isn't the only forum that I am a member of (I am a moderator and regular of a Christian forum, and visit other forums from time to time).

Welcome! If you want some good diversity in your life, I would highly recommend joining the military. I was able to get out of my little town at 19 and when I got out, I was able to get a 4-year degree on the G.I. Bill. Now I am 33, I have a great engineering job, and I have lived and traveled all over the world. I am only saying this because you sound like you don't really enjoy being trapped in your small town. Best of luck!  :)

Quote from: "Satt"Welcome! If you want some good diversity in your life, I would highly recommend joining the military. I was able to get out of my little town at 19 and when I got out, I was able to get a 4-year degree on the G.I. Bill. Now I am 33, I have a great engineering job, and I have lived and traveled all over the world. I am only saying this because you sound like you don't really enjoy being trapped in your small town. Best of luck!  :)

Thanks for the suggestion, Satt. It's definitely something I've researched in the past. I wouldn't mind researching it again, but I would have to gain major upper body strength before I attempt to enlist. What branch where you in, and which branch would you recommend?

Welcome to the piranha club, will! :-D

Welcome.  Hope as a Christian you survive here.  Warning - we can get a bit harsh.  (hint: But Not if you don't try to sell jesus to us)

cheers :-D

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Welcome.  Hope as a Christian you survive here.  Warning - we can get a bit harsh.  (hint: But Not if you don't try to sell jesus to us)

cheers :-D

This is good advice. Just blend in, and hang out.

Quote from: "_Xenu_"This is good advice. Just blend in.

yep, all you gotta do is blend in with this cast of characters.

 :-s






 :axe




 :butthead:





 :finga:






 :borg:




 8-)





 :twisted:






 :Hangman:





 :alien:



 [-(

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Welcome.  Hope as a Christian you survive here.  Warning - we can get a bit harsh.  (hint: But Not if you don't try to sell jesus to us)

cheers :-D

Open minded are we?

Hehe, just poking fun. Don't worry, I'm thick skinned. I need to be thick skinned for my line of work after all. So don't be surprised if someone is rude to me I dish it back.

:popcorn:

Quote from: "will power"

Quote from: "WitchSabrina"Welcome.  Hope as a Christian you survive here.  Warning - we can get a bit harsh.  (hint: But Not if you don't try to sell jesus to us)

cheers :-D

Open minded are we?

Hehe, just poking fun. Don't worry, I'm thick skinned. I need to be thick skinned for my line of work after all. So don't be surprised if someone is rude to me I dish it back.

The number one thing you need to get along with people here is to avoid any semblance of trying to convert us. People tend to get annoyed and sensitive to it after awhile, and even talking about religion will get on many nerves. You're much better off discussing non-religious topics for at least a month or so, then proceeding gently after that. WitchSabrina is a theist and a Unitarian minister, but she never seems to have any problems. Having said that, if you have any ulterior motive of gaining converts, you're  wasting time here. We've heard everything you could possibly say and we're not buying it.

The problem with being a freethinker in my mind is that religion defines your thought process. If your belief is essentially orthodox, then you are not by our measure a freethinker. Religion by its nature sets boundaries on your belief- you can't believe that Buddha is a deity if Jesus/Elohim is the only true god entity. You cannot believe there is no hell if your religion prescribes one. You are limited by your dogma and your orthodoxy.

simply to call yourself a Christian and have beliefs outside of Christian orthodoxy means you are something else, a deist, agnostic or whatever. You haven't defined your beliefs. Identifying as Christian in itself is a vague definition at best.

Are you a Young Earth Creationist?
Do you believe in evolution?
Is the Bible the inerrant word of God?
You came here to discuss, that is what forums are for. So discuss. And trust me that you won't be bringing anything we haven't already dealt with.

Bump. Don't want "yo" boy to feel left out.

Quote from: "will power"

Quote from: "Satt"Welcome! If you want some good diversity in your life, I would highly recommend joining the military. I was able to get out of my little town at 19 and when I got out, I was able to get a 4-year degree on the G.I. Bill. Now I am 33, I have a great engineering job, and I have lived and traveled all over the world. I am only saying this because you sound like you don't really enjoy being trapped in your small town. Best of luck!  :)

Thanks for the suggestion, Satt. It's definitely something I've researched in the past. I wouldn't mind researching it again, but I would have to gain major upper body strength before I attempt to enlist. What branch where you in, and which branch would you recommend?

You don't need to worry about your upper body strenth. They will take care of that in basic training. I was in the US Navy for six years. I would highly recommend the Navy IF you are single and plan to stay that way for a while. Otherwise, I would recommend the Air Force.

Yo yo

(//http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mrVcLDWXBGE/UKUDeWLE5_I/AAAAAAAAAGk/3rgh0_EWzQA/s320/yoyo.jpg)

Quote from: "will power"Hey, my name is Will. Just awkwardly introducing myself....

Things about me:

*I love road cycling
*I'm in the process of changing my degree to an associates in Communications (originally Business Administration - Hr management)
*I've lived in the same house (in the country) for my whole life (19 years).
*I'm a Christian

I'm in the awkward stage in life where all my friends from high school are going to colleges in other states (sometimes even different countries) so in real life I don't really have anyone to talk to anymore. And I live in the country in the middle of nowhere so it's not like I can go out and readily meet new people. So I'd love to make some new friends here!

So in your logical assessment you decide that the best way to make friends is, as a christian to join an Atheist website. Hmmm.....can't fault that logic.

Quote from: "stromboli"Are you a Young Earth Creationist?

I'm one of the few Christians who would say "I don't give a crap" about this aspect. It's not important to know how long ago the universe really was made or how long it took God to create it. What matters is if God did or did not create it. Arguing about this just becomes moaning and groaning over something pointless.

Quote from: "stromboli"Is the Bible the inerrant word of God?

I would say the original manuscripts would be the inerrant word of God. We don't necessarily have the first documents written by the original authors, however, we have New Testament documents dating back to the early hundreds (p[sup:121jmvje]64[/sup:121jmvje] which is located at Magdalen College, Oxford). A few of the oldest surviving copies of Paul's letters are dated back to 200 AD (p[sup:121jmvje]46[/sup:121jmvje] which is located at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor). And there are hundreds of more documents in the following cities: Allentown, Ann Arbor, Athos, Barcelona, Basel, Berkeley, Berlin, Cario, Cambridge (england), Cambridge (Massachusetts), Colonge, Cologny, Dallas, Dubulin, Florence, Gent, Glasgow, etc etc etc, you get the picture. The main idea I'm trying to tell you is that we have pretty accurate manuscripts that are practically originals. Now that I've said that, there are minor edits in our current day Bibles, which is why I believe the original documents are in fact the 100% true inerrant word of God. But what we have today is pretty close to the manuscripts we have today, just minor edits that don't take away from the meaning of the big picture.

QuoteDo you believe in evolution?

Same as first answer. Also, if you're an Atheist, I'm surprised by the wording of this question.

Quote from: "mykcob4"So in your logical assessment you decide that the best way to make friends is, as a christian to join an Atheist website. Hmmm.....can't fault that logic.

So what you're saying is that I'm confined to my Christian bubble to make friends. Can't fault that logic. :p Also, I never said it was the best way to make friends. As I said in an earlier post, I frequent a Christian forum that I also moderate, so I have plenty of acquaintances. I'm just expanding my online social circle. Your first post to me seems to be a straw man argument. *makes mental note*

QuoteI would say the original manuscripts would be the inerrant word of God.

That would be an example of a fallacy in logic called a Slothful Induction because the strong conclusion of your inductive argument is denied despite the evidence to the contrary. This would also hold true for every bible ever written, not just the original that actually leaves out a lot of the first manuscripts.

Examples of errors in the bible:


2 Samuel 23:8
These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in the seat, chief among the captains; the same was Adino the Eznite: he lift up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. (KJV)

These are the names of David's mighty men: Josheb-Basshebeth, a Tahkemonite, was chief of the Three; he raised his spear against eight hundred men, whom he killed in one encounter. (NIV)

These are the names of the mighty men whom David had: Josheb-basshe'beth a Tah-che'monite; he was chief of the three; he wielded his spear against eight hundred whom he slew at one time. (RSV)

1 Chronicles 11:11
And this is the number of the mighty men whom David had; Jashobeam, an Hachmonite, the chief of the captains: he lifted up his spear against three hundred slain by him at one time. (KJV)

this is the list of David's mighty men: Jashobeam, a Hacmonite, was chief of the officers; he raised his spear against three hundred men, whom he killed in one encounter. (NIV)

This is an account of David's mighty men: Jasho'be-am, a Hach'monite, was chief of the three; he wielded his spear against three hundred whom he slew at one time. (RSV)

Matthew 21:19-20
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

Mark 11:13-14, 20-21
And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. ... And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
Solitary

So... the original bible is the inerrant word of god, and in the original bible in the very first chapter god created the universe in the wrong order (by creating the plants before the sun, which would be logically impossible) and you say that bickering about whether the earth is 6000 or 4.500.000.000 years old is pointless (that's quite a margin of error there; a factor of about 750.000) and the same for evolution (creating everything whole or creating everything from micro-organisms over the course of billions of years is also quite a difference)

So clearly we can't take anything in it literally and most of the stuff that happens is down-right impossible or illogical. What reason do you have to claim that despite all that, it's inerrant? And how do you know which parts to follow as true and which parts to ignore? The bible seems to condone slavery, for example. Most people clearly don't. The bible also says to kill people who work on sunday. Not being allowed to work on sunday is even in the ten commandments, so apparently even those can't be taken literally. I guess it's a good thing we have actual, rational reasons not to kill and steal, otherwise everyone would probably ignore those as well.

I'd love to hear how you determine for yourself which parts of the bible to follow, which to change, and which to ignore. And whether or not that brings you closer to the original manuscripts (unlikely) or takes you even further away from them. And what makes you think you know better than god, whose "inerrant word" you are clearly ignoring when you do so.

Quote from: "Plu"So... the original bible is the inerrant word of god, and in the original bible in the very first chapter god created the universe in the wrong order (by creating the plants before the sun, which would be logically impossible) and you say that bickering about whether the earth is 6000 or 4.500.000.000 years old is pointless (that's quite a margin of error there; a factor of about 750.000) and the same for evolution (creating everything whole or creating everything from micro-organisms over the course of billions of years is also quite a difference)

So clearly we can't take anything in it literally and most of the stuff that happens is down-right impossible or illogical. What reason do you have to claim that despite all that, it's inerrant? And how do you know which parts to follow as true and which parts to ignore? The bible seems to condone slavery, for example. Most people clearly don't. The bible also says to kill people who work on sunday. Not being allowed to work on sunday is even in the ten commandments, so apparently even those can't be taken literally. I guess it's a good thing we have actual, rational reasons not to kill and steal, otherwise everyone would probably ignore those as well.

I'd love to hear how you determine for yourself which parts of the bible to follow, which to change, and which to ignore. And whether or not that brings you closer to the original manuscripts (unlikely) or takes you even further away from them. And what makes you think you know better than god, whose "inerrant word" you are clearly ignoring when you do so.

(//http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h321/SabrinaTheInkWitch/adc5f1f6.jpg)

Quote from: "Plu"So... the original bible is the inerrant word of god, and in the original bible in the very first chapter god created the universe in the wrong order (by creating the plants before the sun, which would be logically impossible) and you say that bickering about whether the earth is 6000 or 4.500.000.000 years old is pointless

It is pointless. Knowing the order of things made has no effect on your life. Does it feed the poor? Does knowledge of the order of the beginning of the universe help the homeless? Then why dwell on it if it's not beneficial? We can't truly know the order unless you were there. You have to have some faith while listening to scientists, too. They can formulate hypothesis and theories, (yes, I've heard it over and over that "A Scientific theory is different from an ignorant man's theory") but in the end they can't know for certainty. Also, as you've all heard before and reject time and time again, nothing is impossible with God (unless it contradicts his nature). So, the plant argument is nonsensical.

Quoteand the same for evolution (creating everything whole or creating everything from micro-organisms over the course of billions of years is also quite a difference)

Of course that's a big difference in years. However, I still fail to see your logic that it's beneficial to argue about.

QuoteSo clearly we can't take anything in it literally and most of the stuff that happens is down-right impossible or illogical.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD." Isaiah 55:8

QuoteWhat reason do you have to claim that despite all that, it's inerrant?

Those arguments are poor and overused, so I fail to see how you "disproved" its inerrantsy.

QuoteAnd how do you know which parts to follow as true and which parts to ignore?

Old testament = Old Covenant. Old = No longer followed. New testament = Our current covenant. We follow what was set before us to follow in today's world.

QuoteThe bible seems to condone slavery, for example.

Again, poor argument. And a little bit of a straw man. It doesn't condone slavery at all. It says how slaves should be treated, and it tells us if you can gain your freedom, do so (1 Corinthains 7:21) Plus you have to look at slavery in Biblical terms. Slaves in the Bible days weren't as the slaves in the United States while slavery was going on. This article explains it better than I can. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html)

QuoteThe bible also says to kill people who work on sunday.

Another poor argument. First off, The old testament was aimed at the holy city only (Israel). Second, the Sabbath isn't Sunday (surprised you didn't know that). The Sabbath is Saturday. We worship God on Sunday because that's the day when most Christians believe Christ was risen. Once again, "Old" means that it no longer has command over our lives, the New Testament does.

QuoteAnd what makes you think you know better than god, whose "inerrant word" you are clearly ignoring when you do so.

Straw man argument. Seems to be a common theme here so far in this forum. :p

Quote me where I say "I know better than God whose word is Inerrant".

Sorry, but I wouldn't classify this as the best post of the thread. Too many holes and easily explainable overused arguments.

Oh. My. Goodness.

 :shock:

QuoteDoes it feed the poor?

Uh... yes. Science accounts for probably 95% of the world's food production, and it's based entirely on knowing stuff. It's incredibly vital to know and understand the order of things. If we didn't do that, we'd still be living in caves.


EDIT: here's a simple test. Look around you. Find 1 object in your room that hasn't been made or improved somehow by people applying science.
(If you have one, you might end up at "this plant", and you'd still be wrong because pretty much all plants have been grown by humans to be prettier or smell better)

So yeah; "bickering" about the big questions of the universe is definately having an impact on your life. It's just that science simply works, so you don't have to understand how it's doing what it does for it to do what it does, which leads some people to believe that science matters less than it does.

Quote from: "mykcob4"So in your logical assessment you decide that the best way to make friends is, as a christian to join an Atheist website. Hmmm.....can't fault that logic.

So what you're saying is that I'm confined to my Christian bubble to make friends. Can't fault that logic. :p Also, I never said it was the best way to make friends. As I said in an earlier post, I frequent a Christian forum that I also moderate, so I have plenty of acquaintances. I'm just expanding my online social circle. Your first post to me seems to be a straw man argument. *makes mental note*[/quote]Straw man? Not really. I question christians that come on this forum and forums like this. They tend to spam a great deal. Then they tend to proslytize. At any rate they won't conform to logic, instead they quote scripture and deny facts. I am suspicious of that with all new posters, especially the christian ones whether they reveal their christian belief or not.
As far as being advised to join the military. I am a retired vet, and I would not recommend joining the military for purely monitary reasons. It's called the service for a reason. I joined because I felt the need to serve my nation. I wasn't ultra patriotic or extremely macho. I didn't join to be a hero or become macho. I heeded the call of President Kennedy to serve others and the best way for me to do that was to join the service. I found myself many times in situations that compromised my principles (Reagan, Bush I & II), but overall I was happy that I served this nation. I believe that college is the gateway to success. I wished I had finish college before I had joined but I was able to finish during and after I retired. My favorite pathway is to finish school get a worthwhile degree and join the Peace Corps. It is very difficult but having the Peace Corps on your resume is like graduating from an Ivy League school. Plus the experience is invaluable. Don't think you can achieve that with a communication degree. Your degree plan is suited for sales, maybe HR.
I have, believe it or not, a few christian friends. They understand that freedom of religion is an individual right not a community or social right. They understand the bible quote " render under Ceaser that which is Ceasers." They also hold the bible tenet Mathew 6:6, which explains that praying publicly god will not hear you, that prayer is a private conversation. Not to pray for things, but to pray for forgiveness and understanding. My favorite christians are my neighbors that graduated from Baylor. They seem to be well adjusted, well rounded, well grounded, well educated people. My SMU, OU, A&M, and TCU neighbors are flat out batshit crazy. Especially the OU crowd.
So if you think my OP was a strawman, sobeit. I can't help paranoia, or insecurity in your own belief.

BTW Yo just how have christians fed the poor and taken care of the homeless without charging them for it? There is always a cost and in the case of christianity it is usually your obedience, your freedom of thought, and sometimes the threat of death and or slavery.

Quote from: "will power"It is pointless. Knowing the order of things made has no effect on your life.

Best get rid of your computer, your television, your smartphone, the lock on your door... your door... see where I'm going with this?

Quote from: "will power"Does it feed the poor? Does knowledge of the order of the beginning of the universe help the homeless?

So runaway capitalism is stupid, and according to you this is somehow science's fault. Brilliant logic there.

Quote from: "will power"Then why dwell on it if it's not beneficial?

Because it is. You're just too blind to see that without science, being "poor and homeless" would be the state of all human beings on the planet. Science can't solve every problem on its own, but it's a damn sight better than living in caves!

Quote from: "will power"We can't truly know the order unless you were there. You have to have some faith while listening to scientists, too. They can formulate hypothesis and theories, (yes, I've heard it over and over that "A Scientific theory is different from an ignorant man's theory") but in the end they can't know for certainty.

You and I have very different definitions of faith:

faith  
/f?TH/
Noun
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Synonyms
belief - trust - confidence - credence - credit

I hold no degree beyond my AA currently, but I have enough faith in the scientific community to think that most scientists know what they're talking about, absolute certainty or no. It has also taught me that anyone claiming absolute certainty tends to know very little, if anything at all.

Quote from: "will power"Also, as you've all heard before and reject time and time again, nothing is impossible with God (unless it contradicts his nature). So, the plant argument is nonsensical.

lol. "Nothing is impossible with God, except when it is." Pure gold right there. Also, you have said absolutely nothing to contradict the plant argument.

Quote from: "will power"Of course that's a big difference in years. However, I still fail to see your logic that it's beneficial to argue about.

I once read a book about how to apply the theory of evolution to medical science. It really is amazing how much doctors try to fight the body instead of working with it, simply because many of them don't think to understand why the body has the systems it has (or in the US, because many of them were not educated in evolution theory at all).

Quote from: "will power""For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD." Isaiah 55:8

A supreme being would know how to make itself understood to us mere mortals, especially if it created us and presumably knows what makes us tick. The quote is therefore meaningless, and only helps to show that your religion is bullshit.

Quote from: "will power"Those arguments are poor and overused, so I fail to see how you "disproved" its inerrantsy.

Translation: I know it's bullshit and won't try to tell you otherwise, olololololololololololoolololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: "will power"Old testament = Old Covenant. Old = No longer followed. New testament = Our current covenant. We follow what was set before us to follow in today's world.

Funny how most of you can't even agree on that. As if I needed more evidence that this shit is made up.

Quote from: "will power"Again, poor argument. And a little bit of a straw man. It doesn't condone slavery at all. It says how slaves should be treated, and it tells us if you can gain your freedom, do so (1 Corinthains 7:21) Plus you have to look at slavery in Biblical terms. Slaves in the Bible days weren't as the slaves in the United States while slavery was going on. This article explains it better than I can. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html).

Which is to say: The Bible doesn't condemn slavery and in fact tells you how to manage them. Ergo, the Bible condones slavery. What part of this is unclear to you?

Quote from: "will power"Another poor argument. First off, The old testament was aimed at the holy city only (Israel). Second, the Sabbath isn't Sunday (surprised you didn't know that). The Sabbath is Saturday. We worship God on Sunday because that's the day when most Christians believe Christ was risen. Once again, "Old" means that it no longer has command over our lives, the New Testament does.

And once again, most of you can't even agree on that. You revile science for not having all the answers, yet you can't even get your own collective act together! And you wonder why we trust empirical evidence over bronze age myths.(!?)

Quote from: "will power"Straw man argument. Seems to be a common theme here so far in this forum. :p

A straw man argument is when someone sets up an inaccurate presentation of the opposing argument and attacks that presentation. Nothing said about your religion so far constitutes a straw man attack. You've made plenty yourself against science, though.

Quote from: "will power"Quote me where I say "I know better than God whose word is Inerrant".

He wasn't quoting you, he said this is what your argument boils down to. You deny that the Bible says something (like condoning slavery), when often those are the exact words of the text. Apparently, you know better than your own god if his printed word is somehow inaccurate.

Quote from: "will power"Sorry, but I wouldn't classify this as the best post of the thread. Too many holes and easily explainable overused arguments.

You didn't answer a single argument with anything approaching a satisfactory answer. You trotted out the same tired apologetic arguments that have been debunked again and again and again. You people just never learn, it seems. We're mulling over extra-solar planetary discoveries by the world's best astronomers and equipment, and you're still here trying to convince us of a book that states, in the opening passages, that the Earth is contained within an impenetrable celestial firmament that separates us from a flying ocean containing some glowing pixie dust called stars. Yet we're somehow the ones defending a ridiculous position. Unbelievable.

Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"

Quote from: "will power"It is pointless. Knowing the order of things made has no effect on your life.

Best get rid of your computer, your television, your smartphone, the lock on your door... your door... see where I'm going with this?

Quote from: "will power"Does it feed the poor? Does knowledge of the order of the beginning of the universe help the homeless?

So runaway capitalism is stupid, and according to you this is somehow science's fault. Brilliant logic there.

Quote from: "will power"Then why dwell on it if it's not beneficial?

Because it is. You're just too blind to see that without science, being "poor and homeless" would be the state of all human beings on the planet. Science can't solve every problem on its own, but it's a damn sight better than living in caves!

Quote from: "will power"We can't truly know the order unless you were there. You have to have some faith while listening to scientists, too. They can formulate hypothesis and theories, (yes, I've heard it over and over that "A Scientific theory is different from an ignorant man's theory") but in the end they can't know for certainty.

You and I have very different definitions of faith:

faith  
/f?TH/
Noun
1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Synonyms
belief - trust - confidence - credence - credit

I hold no degree beyond my AA currently, but I have enough faith in the scientific community to think that most scientists know what they're talking about, absolute certainty or no. It has also taught me that anyone claiming absolute certainty tends to know very little, if anything at all.

Quote from: "will power"Also, as you've all heard before and reject time and time again, nothing is impossible with God (unless it contradicts his nature). So, the plant argument is nonsensical.

lol. "Nothing is impossible with God, except when it is." Pure gold right there. Also, you have said absolutely nothing to contradict the plant argument.

Quote from: "will power"Of course that's a big difference in years. However, I still fail to see your logic that it's beneficial to argue about.

I once read a book about how to apply the theory of evolution to medical science. It really is amazing how much doctors try to fight the body instead of working with it, simply because many of them don't think to understand why the body has the systems it has (or in the US, because many of them were not educated in evolution theory at all).

Quote from: "will power""For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD." Isaiah 55:8

A supreme being would know how to make itself understood to us mere mortals, especially if it created us and presumably knows what makes us tick. The quote is therefore meaningless, and only helps to show that your religion is bullshit.

Quote from: "will power"Those arguments are poor and overused, so I fail to see how you "disproved" its inerrantsy.

Translation: I know it's bullshit and won't try to tell you otherwise, olololololololololololoolololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: "will power"Old testament = Old Covenant. Old = No longer followed. New testament = Our current covenant. We follow what was set before us to follow in today's world.

Funny how most of you can't even agree on that. As if I needed more evidence that this shit is made up.

Quote from: "will power"Again, poor argument. And a little bit of a straw man. It doesn't condone slavery at all. It says how slaves should be treated, and it tells us if you can gain your freedom, do so (1 Corinthains 7:21) Plus you have to look at slavery in Biblical terms. Slaves in the Bible days weren't as the slaves in the United States while slavery was going on. This article explains it better than I can. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html).

Which is to say: The Bible doesn't condemn slavery and in fact tells you how to manage them. Ergo, the Bible condones slavery. What part of this is unclear to you?

Quote from: "will power"Another poor argument. First off, The old testament was aimed at the holy city only (Israel). Second, the Sabbath isn't Sunday (surprised you didn't know that). The Sabbath is Saturday. We worship God on Sunday because that's the day when most Christians believe Christ was risen. Once again, "Old" means that it no longer has command over our lives, the New Testament does.

And once again, most of you can't even agree on that. You revile science for not having all the answers, yet you can't even get your own collective act together! And you wonder why we trust empirical evidence over bronze age myths.(!?)

Quote from: "will power"Straw man argument. Seems to be a common theme here so far in this forum. :p

A straw man argument is when someone sets up an inaccurate presentation of the opposing argument and attacks that presentation. Nothing said about your religion so far constitutes a straw man attack. You've made plenty yourself against science, though.

Quote from: "will power"Quote me where I say "I know better than God whose word is Inerrant".

He wasn't quoting you, he said this is what your argument boils down to. You deny that the Bible says something (like condoning slavery), when often those are the exact words of the text. Apparently, you know better than your own god if his printed word is somehow inaccurate.

Quote from: "will power"Sorry, but I wouldn't classify this as the best post of the thread. Too many holes and easily explainable overused arguments.

You didn't answer a single argument with anything approaching a satisfactory answer. You trotted out the same tired apologetic arguments that have been debunked again and again and again. You people just never learn, it seems. We're mulling over extra-solar planetary discoveries by the world's best astronomers and equipment, and you're still here trying to convince us of a book that states, in the opening passages, that the Earth is contained within an impenetrable celestial firmament that separates us from a flying ocean containing some glowing pixie dust called stars. Yet we're somehow the ones defending a ridiculous position. Unbelievable.

Damn.   Good.   Post !!!
Well done you!

OK Willpower, how do you make sense out of this?

Genesis  
1.God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5

2.God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8

3.Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

4. In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14

5."He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

6."And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17

7.God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth."  1:28

8."I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat."
 Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God's advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God. 1:29

9."He rested."
 Even God gets tired sometimes. 2:2

10."The tree of life ... and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
 God created two magic trees: the tree of life and the tree of knowledge. Eat from the first, and you live forever (3:22); eat from the second and you'll die the same day (2:17). (Or that's what God said, anyway. Adam ate from the tree of knowledge and lived for another 930 years or so (5:5). But he never got a chance to eat from the tree of life. God prevented him from eating from the tree of life before Adam could eat from the tree, become a god, and live forever.) 2:9

11.God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. (Although he was tempted to go for the sheep.) After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20

12.God's clever, talking serpent.  3:1

13.God walks and talks (to himself?) in the garden, and plays a little hide and seek with Adam and Eve. 3:8-11

14.God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14

15.God curses the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. 3:17-18

16.God kills some animals and makes some skin coats for Adam and Eve. 3:21

17."Behold, the man is become as one of us."
 God expels Adam and Eve from the garden before they get a chance to eat from that other tree -- the tree of life. God knows that if they do that, they well become "like one of us" and live forever. 3:22-24

18.Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, "Every one who finds me shall slay me." This is a strange concern since there were only two other humans alive at the time -- his parents! 4:14

19."And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD." 4:16

20. "And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where the hell did she come from? 4:17

21.Lamech kills a man and claims that since Cain's murderer would be punished sevenfold, whoever murders him will be punished seventy-seven fold. That sounds fair. 4:23-24

22."And to Seth ... was born a son." Where'd he find his wife? 4:26

23.God created a man and a woman, and he "called their name Adam." So the woman's name was Adam, too! 5:2

24.Adam finally dies -- 930 years after eating from the tree of knowledge, contrary to God's false prophecy that Adam would die the day that he ate the forbidden fruit (2:17). 5:5

25.Seth lived 912 years. 5:8

26.Enos lived 905 years. 5:11

27.Cainan lived 910 years. 5:14

28.Mahalaleel lived 895 years. 5:17

29.Jared lived 962 years. 5:20

30.Enoch doesn't die he just ascends into heaven. 5:21-24

31.Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken (alive?) by God. 5:23

32.When Lamech was born, nine generations were alive at once. Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech were all alive at the time of Lamech's birth. Adam lived to see his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson. 5:25

33.Methuselah lived 969 years. (World record holder.) 5:27

34. Lamech lived 777 years. 5:31

35.When Noah was 500 years old, he had three sons.
[Three sons in one year? Was that with one (nameless) wife or several?] 5:32

36."The sons of God came in unto the daughters of men."
 The "sons of God" had sex with the "daughters of men," and had sons who became "the mighty men of old, men of renown." 6:2-4

37."The LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh."
 God shortened the human lifespan to 120 years because humans are "flesh" and he was tired of fighting with them. 6:3

38."There were giants in the earth in those days." 6:4

39.God decides to kill all living things because the human imagination is evil. Later (8:21), after he kills everything, he promises never to do it again because the human imagination is evil. Go figure. 6:5

40.God repents. 6:6-7

41."Noah was a just man and perfect."
 Noah is called a "just man and perfect," but he didn't seem so perfect when he was drunk and naked in front of his sons (9:20-21). 6:9, 7:1

42."Behold, I will destroy them with the earth."
 God was angry because "the earth was filled with violence." So he killed every living thing to make the world less violent. 6:11-13

43.God tells Noah to make one small window (18 inches square) in the 450 foot ark for ventilation. 6:14-16

44."And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten ... for thee, and for them." 6:21

45."Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens."
 How did Noah know which animals were "clean" and "unclean" to God? (It wasn't defined until Leviticus was written.) 7:2

46.Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." 7:8

47.God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11

48.All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." 7:13-14

49."And God remembered Noah."
 Yeah. He probably said something like, "Isn't Noah the guy who built the ark?" 8:1

50."The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining. 8:2

51.Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11

52."And the Lord smelled a sweet savor."
 Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor." After this God "said in his heart" that he'd never do it again because "man's heart is evil from his youth." So God killed all living things (6:5) because humans are evil, and then promises not to do it again (8:21) because humans are evil. The mind of God is a frightening thing. 8:20-21

53.According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2

54."Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2

55."I do set my bow in the cloud."
 God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He makes a deal with the animals, promising never to drown them all again. He even puts the rainbow in the sky so that whenever he sees it, it will remind him of his promise so that he won't be tempted to do it again. (Every time God sees the rainbow he says to himself: "Oh, yeah.... That's right. I promised not to drown the animals again. I guess I'll have to find something else to do.").
But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:13

56.The "just and righteous" Noah (6:9, 7:1) plants a vineyard, gets drunk, and lies around naked in his tent. His son, Ham, happens to see his father in this condition. When Noah sobers up and hears "what his young son had done unto him" (what did he do besides look at him?), he curses not Ham, who "saw the nakedness of his father," but Ham's son, Canaan. "A servant of servants shall he [Canaan] be unto his brethren." This is a typical case of biblical justice, and is one of many Bible passages that have been used to justify slavery. 9:20-25

57."All the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years." 9:29

58.The entire tenth chapter is the first of many boring genealogies (see Genesis 11:10-32, 1 Chronicles 1-9, Matthew 1:1-17, Luke.3:23-28 for other examples) that we are told to avoid in 1 Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9 ("Avoid foolish questions and genealogies.") 10:1-32

59."Now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."
 God worries that the people will succeed in building a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven, and that by so doing they will become omnipotent. 11:4-6

60.God says, "Let us go down ..." Maybe he hasn't been talking to himself; maybe there is more than one of them up there. Well, however many there may be, they all decide to come down to confuse the builders by confounding human language and scattering them [humans] abroad. 11:7

61.Another boring genealogy that we are told to avoid in 1 Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9. ("Avoid foolish questions and genealogies.") Also note the ridiculously long lives of the patriarchs. 11:10-32

62. Shem lived 600 years. 11:12-13

63.Salah lived 433 years. 11:14-15

64.Eber lived 464 years. 11:16-17

65.Peleg lived 239 years. 11:18-19

66.Reu lived 239 years. 11:20-21

67.Serug lived 229 years. 11:22-23

68.Nahor lived 148 years. 11:24-25

69.And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years. 11:32

70."I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee."
 God will bless you if you bless Abraham and curse you if you curse Abraham. Fuck Abraham. 12:3

71.The Amalekites were smitten before Amalek (from whom they descended) was born. Amalek was the grandson of Esau (Genesis 36:12). 14:7

72."They speedily took down every man his sack to the ground, and opened every man his sack ... and the cup was found in Benjamin's sack. Then they rent their clothes." 14:12-13
 :roll:  This should get interesting, if he actually will answer what I posted already, and then this. Solitary

One concession I'll make about science is this: at the end of the day, it's just a tool.

If you want to find a way to solve world hunger, science is the best way to do it; and if you want to create a weapon of mass destruction, science is also the best way to do it. Religion could never have created the atomic bomb, but neither could it have given us crop rotation and fertilizer. If religion leads you to do good things with science, more power to you; just remember that it was science, not religion, that afforded you the capability in the first place.

And also remember that while religion can be replaced with a hundred reasons for allowing a person to do good with science, there is not a single known thing in the world that can replace science and yield the same results.

(And in the odd case that we do find something that works as well or better, you can believe that it'll be put to use immediately and with as little fuss as there can be.)

Quote from: "will power"Hey, my name is Will. Just awkwardly introducing myself....

Things about me:

*I love road cycling
*I'm in the process of changing my degree to an associates in Communications (originally Business Administration - Hr management)
*I've lived in the same house (in the country) for my whole life (19 years).
*I'm a Christian

I'm in the awkward stage in life where all my friends from high school are going to colleges in other states (sometimes even different countries) so in real life I don't really have anyone to talk to anymore. And I live in the country in the middle of nowhere so it's not like I can go out and readily meet new people. So I'd love to make some new friends here!

Two days late but nice to have you here. Sorry you got swarmed so much so fast, but it tends to happen here. Hope you stick around.

Guys I really think you're going too fast for him, I could see more than 60 questions on the previous page xD. You can't expect him to answer all of that. Whenever someone who is religious claims something irrational or supernatural, i just get to the fundamentals. So Will, if you could just answer this one question, that would be a great start : How do you know that a god exists ?

QuoteUh... yes. Science accounts for....

I'll stop you right there. Quote me where I said "science" when you were quoting me. Arguing about how long the universe was made =/= science in general feeding people. I'm not arguing that science doesn't help or feed people. Thanks for judging me.

QuoteIt's incredibly vital to know and understand the order of things. If we didn't do that, we'd still be living in caves.

Uh, what? I debated about even replying to this one. Knowing the order of the universe =/= building houses. That is just common sense.

QuoteEDIT: here's a simple test. Look around you. Find 1 object in your room that hasn't been made or improved somehow by people applying science.

Oh my...

1.) Thanks for stereotyping me as anti-science. 2.) Thanks for judging me

Just because I say "knowing the order of the universe is a stupid argument" doesn't mean I'm anti science. Come on, as Atheists I expected better arguments.

QuoteSo yeah; "bickering" about the big questions of the universe is definately having an impact on your life.

How? You didn't make that clear. Knowing the order of universe made =/= impacting my life. It really hasn't.

Quote from: "mykcob4"BTW Yo just how have christians fed the poor and taken care of the homeless without charging them for it?

Well if you want a credible source, research Peoria Rescue Ministries. Research any Christian homeless shelter. Research missions trips overseas and to our home country. A good sized group from my church just went over to equator to provide a clean water solution to a whole town by installing pipes that deliver clean drinking water. No cost to the town. Or like I mentioned earlier, the rescue ministries. Provides free shelter to homeless people (high rate where I live) and free food. No cost to the attendees.

QuoteBest get rid of your computer, your television, your smartphone, the lock on your door... your door... see where I'm going with this?

Nope. Knowing the order that the universe was made =/= knowing how to make technology. Bad logic with this scenario. Knowing the order of things made in the universe =/= knowledge how to build and construct using science.

QuoteSo runaway capitalism is stupid, and according to you this is somehow science's fault. Brilliant logic there.

Whoa. Biggest straw man fallacy on this thread yet. Care to expand using sources and quotes so I know you're not judging what I believe in? Not caring what order the universe was made in doesn't mean I'm anti-science. For the tenth time.

QuoteBecause it is. You're just too blind to see that without science, being "poor and homeless" would be the state of all human beings on the planet. Science can't solve every problem on its own, but it's a damn sight better than living in caves!

Whoa. Surprise. Another false judgement.

I'M NOT ANTI SCIENCE JUST BECAUSE I DON'T CARE WHAT ORDER THE UNIVERSE WAS MADE IN. Get it now? No? Not caring what order the universe was made in =/= no ability to make houses. This is just a poor fallacy.

Quotelol. "Nothing is impossible with God, except when it is."

Another straw man. It's not even worth it...I can only sit back and laugh. I hoped for better arguments here. Something that would actually make me think a little...

QuoteI once read a book about how to apply the theory of evolution to medical science. It really is amazing how much doctors try to fight the body instead of working with it, simply because many of them don't think to understand why the body has the systems it has (or in the US, because many of them were not educated in evolution theory at all).

And? Theory of evolution =/= the big bang (and the order that came from it), which I'm saying is pointless to argue about. I'm not anti science.

QuoteA supreme being would know how to make itself understood to us mere mortals, especially if it created us and presumably knows what makes us tick. The quote is therefore meaningless, and only helps to show that your religion is bullshit.

Wait, so just because he's saying God's ways are different from us means that the whole religion is undermined? Try again...

QuoteTranslation: I know it's bullshit and won't try to tell you otherwise, olololololololololololoolololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Um...  :rollin:

I got a pretty big chuckle out of that one. You still haven't proved it's not inerrant. Try again.

QuoteFunny how most of you can't even agree on that. As if I needed more evidence that this shit is made up.

Funny how scientists don't agree on everything either. Does that mean the world is messed up because scientists don't all agree? No. Christians don't agree on everything. Does that mean the religion itself is undermined because they have differing views? No. Poor logic. Nobody studies logic anymore, I understand, but you should still grasp the basics of it.

QuoteWhich is to say: The Bible doesn't condemn slavery and in fact tells you how to manage them. Ergo, the Bible condones slavery. What part of this is unclear to you?

This shows that you are ignorant of what the Bible is actually about (not meant as an insult).

"Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society."

QuoteAnd once again, most of you can't even agree on that.

Atheists don't agree on everything. They must be wrong in their beliefs! Or so according to this logic....

QuoteYou revile science for not having all the answers,

No. Just no. If you haven't read my comments in this post about science thus far, I have no longer need to debate you. Quote me one time where I've said this. No? Okay.

Quoteyet you can't even get your own collective act together

Ad hominem fallacy at its finest, boys! Show me evidence.

QuoteAnd you wonder why we trust empirical evidence over bronze age myths

You don't provide evidence for your arguments, attack my beliefs even though I wasn't going to share them in the first place until I was asked, use ad hominems and straw man fallacies, and you expect me to trust you? Think about that for a minute.

QuoteA straw man argument is when someone sets up an inaccurate presentation of the opposing argument and attacks that presentation.

Thanks for telling me something I already know. You used a straw man, therefore I called it out. Da ding!

QuoteYou've made plenty yourself against science, though.

*Shakes head* #-o

QuoteYou didn't answer a single argument with anything approaching a satisfactory answer.

Of course it wasn't a satisfactory answer, because it didn't agree with you. ;)

QuoteYou trotted out the same tired apologetic arguments that have been debunked again and again and again.

I don't think you've taken a debate class. You can't make claims like this and not back them up now... try again.

Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"One concession I'll make about science is this: at the end of the day, it's just a tool.

If you want to find a way to solve world hunger, science is the best way to do it; and if you want to create a weapon of mass destruction, science is also the best way to do it. Religion could never have created the atomic bomb, but neither could it have given us crop rotation and fertilizer. If religion leads you to do good things with science, more power to you; just remember that it was science, not religion, that afforded you the capability in the first place.

And I agree. Why are we talking about this again? When Atheists see the word "Christian" or "I don't care about the order of which things were made in" they all scream ANTI-SCIENCE. MURDER HIM! Um, yeah...and they say Christians are the judgmental ones. *whistle*

Quote from: "Plu"And also remember that while religion can be replaced with a hundred reasons for allowing a person to do good with science, there is not a single known thing in the world that can replace science and yield the same results.

(And in the odd case that we do find something that works as well or better, you can believe that it'll be put to use immediately and with as little fuss as there can be.)

*headdesk* I'm not anti science. I'm done typing that.

Quote from: "bada94"Guys I really think you're going too fast for him, I could see more than 60 questions on the previous page xD. You can't expect him to answer all of that. Whenever someone who is religious claims something irrational or supernatural, i just get to the fundamentals. So Will, if you could just answer this one question, that would be a great start : How do you know that a god exists ?

Thanks! I only have enough time to use the internet for one hour a day with my schedule, which is roughly making one long post a day. There's no way I'll be able to answer every single attack that I'm getting...haha.

I have faith that God exists. I don't know for certain. Faith =/= knowing 100%. However, I believe there's a God because of multiple reasons that I'm going to quickly cover, and that I know someone is going to attempt to pound. I mean, I'm the devil according to some atheists.

Order can't come from disorder. Nothing can't explode into something. Yes, people are going to pound this one because of the discovery of the "God Particle" and say that something can come from nothing. I disagree, because it's just common sense that when you have nothing, something can't come from nothing. There *has* to be something existing in order for something else to be made. An example would be babies. Something as complex as babies can't appear out of thin air (although I've had atheists in the past tell me that they could...I'm not bluffing...they straight up told me it's possible but not probable that babies and dogs can appear in thin air. Yeah I know, I'm scratching my head too). In order to have a baby, you have to have two humans do the deed to create another human. The universe is much more complex than a baby. Something outside of the universe has to be at work. Now people have said the expanding/collapsing universe theory, which states that the universe is in a constant cycle of expanding and collapsing forever. This is not possible for a few reasons, but I'm running short on time right now.

Another reason why I believe in the Christian God is all the extra-biblical resources that tell us and confirm of Jesus and his miracles. A few names to note down for extra-biblical Jesus references would be Cornelius Tacitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Thallus, Pliny the younger, Celsus, Lucian of Samosata, Mara bar-serapion, flavius Josephus, The babalonian talmud, clement of rome, ignatius of antioch, quadratus of athens, aristides the athenian, Justin Martyr, and Hegesippus.

Also, personal experiences through answered prayers and life experiences in general have shown to me that God is true and living.

I definitely don't have time to reply to everyone seeing that I have a 45 minute speech to write for Monday...but I'll get to them when or if I can. *if* meaning that I don't get bombarded, which I wouldn't put it past you guys xD.

Once more, unto the bullshit.

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteBest get rid of your computer, your television, your smartphone, the lock on your door... your door... see where I'm going with this?

Nope. Knowing the order that the universe was made =/= knowing how to make technology. Bad logic with this scenario. Knowing the order of things made in the universe =/= knowledge how to build and construct using science.

Science is the study of "the order of the universe" as you put it. Your statement basically means, "science =/= science." To which I can only say, "lol wut?"

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteSo runaway capitalism is stupid, and according to you this is somehow science's fault. Brilliant logic there.

Whoa. Biggest straw man fallacy on this thread yet. Care to expand using sources and quotes so I know you're not judging what I believe in? Not caring what order the universe was made in doesn't mean I'm anti-science. For the tenth time.

This is not a straw man for the reasons I mentioned above. I have not misrepresented your statements in any way. Whether or not you comprehend your own statements is also not my concern.

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteBecause it is. You're just too blind to see that without science, being "poor and homeless" would be the state of all human beings on the planet. Science can't solve every problem on its own, but it's a damn sight better than living in caves!

Whoa. Surprise. Another false judgement.

I'M NOT ANTI SCIENCE JUST BECAUSE I DON'T CARE WHAT ORDER THE UNIVERSE WAS MADE IN. Get it now? No? Not caring what order the universe was made in =/= no ability to make houses. This is just a poor fallacy.

Show that it is a false judgement. I'm not the one who needs to prove his case here. If you don't understand what your own words mean, you should re-evaluate your argument. There are no fallacious statements in my post.

Quote from: "will power"

Quotelol. "Nothing is impossible with God, except when it is."

Another straw man. It's not even worth it...I can only sit back and laugh. I hoped for better arguments here. Something that would actually make me think a little...

Yes, it's clear that thinking is not your strong suit. Particularly since you seem to think science is studying something other than the universe.

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteI once read a book about how to apply the theory of evolution to medical science. It really is amazing how much doctors try to fight the body instead of working with it, simply because many of them don't think to understand why the body has the systems it has (or in the US, because many of them were not educated in evolution theory at all).

And? Theory of evolution =/= the big bang (and the order that came from it), which I'm saying is pointless to argue about. I'm not anti science.

You think science is studying something other than the order of the universe. Your argument is invalid.

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteA supreme being would know how to make itself understood to us mere mortals, especially if it created us and presumably knows what makes us tick. The quote is therefore meaningless, and only helps to show that your religion is bullshit.

Wait, so just because he's saying God's ways are different from us means that the whole religion is undermined? Try again...

This is stupid on too many levels to count. It's saying that we should not question God because his ways are different. Yet God clearly should be able to get his point across given what he is. The better question is, "Why does God need an excuse for you not to question him?" The answer is obviously that this is not the wisdom of a supreme being and is, in fact, bullshit.

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteTranslation: I know it's bullshit and won't try to tell you otherwise, olololololololololololoolololololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Um...  :rollin:

I got a pretty big chuckle out of that one. You still haven't proved it's not inerrant. Try again.

Implying that I need to prove anything at all. If you think something is inerrant, you have to prove it's inerrant. I only have to show how full of shit your arguments are.

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteFunny how most of you can't even agree on that. As if I needed more evidence that this shit is made up.

Funny how scientists don't agree on everything either. Does that mean the world is messed up because scientists don't all agree? No. Christians don't agree on everything. Does that mean the religion itself is undermined because they have differing views? No. Poor logic. Nobody studies logic anymore, I understand, but you should still grasp the basics of it.

Scientists don't claim to possess revealed truth; Christians do. If scientists disagree, it only means they made different observations. If Christians disagree, it's because their so-called revealed truth is bullshit. Revealed truth should be the same across the board; multiple versions of the same belief cannot all be true!

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteWhich is to say: The Bible doesn't condemn slavery and in fact tells you how to manage them. Ergo, the Bible condones slavery. What part of this is unclear to you?

This shows that you are ignorant of what the Bible is actually about (not meant as an insult).

"Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society."

So apparently slavery is part of the path to salvation.

You walked right into that one, dude, don't get mad at me. :-D

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteAnd once again, most of you can't even agree on that.

Atheists don't agree on everything. They must be wrong in their beliefs! Or so according to this logic....

Atheists do not claim to possess revealed truth; Christians do. What part of this do you not understand?

Quote from: "will power"

QuoteYou revile science for not having all the answers,

No. Just no. If you haven't read my comments in this post about science thus far, I have no longer need to debate you. Quote me one time where I've said this. No? Okay.

I did. Many times. Every time you said learning the "order of the universe" was pointless, you reviled science. In your mind, science is somehow studying something other than the universe. (Even though the very definition of science is to study the universe.)

Quote from: "will power"

Quoteyet you can't even get your own collective act together

Ad hominem fallacy at its finest, boys! Show me evidence.

First of all, you don't know what ad hominem is. In fact, you seem to be painfully under-educated in the subject of logical fallacies in general. Secondly, I don't have to show you a damn thing. You're the one claiming the Bible is inerrant, and you're the one claiming your religion is correct. It is your job to prove this, and I find it rather curious that you have so far not attempted to do so. :-|

What the guy above said. Science is the pursuit of understanding the universe. You seem to severely misunderstand the basic idea of science. (Which, interestingly, is a common trait in the religious and the young earth creationists in specific)

Unfortunately, any kind of discussion is pointless with people who don't understand science, because everything people communicate and discuss requires a basic understanding of the workings of science and debate.

So all that is left to do is for me to say: go out and try to understand what it is that scientists are doing. Until you do that, nothing in the world will ever make sense to you, because science is the only thing we have that makes sense of the universe.

The fact that you think there's a difference between the science of astrophysics and "feeding people" shows you how strange your idea of science is. The study of the origin of the universe has created countless breakthroughs in modern science, in many fields. Especially the fields of energy production (understanding where energy came from and how it works in the first place will be the key to unlocking new sources of it) but also nano-technology (did you know scientists understand the universe so well that they've made a material called Graphene, which is so tough that a paper-thin sheet of it can balance an elephant? Imagine building houses out of that!) to the basic field of organic combustion (do you even know how human beings convert food to energy? It's an amazingly complex chemic system, and understanding it will help us feed them better)

I don't know what kind of college it is you're going to, but you'd do well to see if it has a science department and to ask them "what is science, and what does it do?". Well, unless it's a christian college, in that case you should really find a secular college first and then ask them, because it sounds like you've been taught the christian idea of science for quite a while now.


And really, when you say "I'm not anti-science" what you're really saying is "I'm not anti-technology", which is basically saying "I'll gladly use what science has come up with as long as I don't have to stop believing in my holy book."

Fortunately for you, science doesn't really care about your holy book because it doesn't produce any results, so you will never find any technology that disproves it. After all; there's nothing in there to work with. In that regard, christians have it easy: they can believe what they want, because technology works regardless of your beliefs. And religion doesn't do anything regardless of your beliefs, so it can't be disproven. All anyone can do is show you that there's nothing there; but people are very good at convincing themselves there is something there when there is nothing.

I actually posted a TED video on that very topic yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... z1R0o&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=b_6-iVz1R0o&NR=1)

I would actually advise you not to watch it, unless you are really interested in understanding the world, and understanding yourself. It's not a pretty place, but in the end it's the only thing that's real.

Quote from: "will power"Order can't come from disorder. Nothing can't explode into something. Yes, people are going to pound this one because of the discovery of the "God Particle" and say that something can come from nothing. I disagree, because it's just common sense that when you have nothing, something can't come from nothing. There *has* to be something existing in order for something else to be made. An example would be babies. Something as complex as babies can't appear out of thin air (although I've had atheists in the past tell me that they could...I'm not bluffing...they straight up told me it's possible but not probable that babies and dogs can appear in thin air. Yeah I know, I'm scratching my head too). In order to have a baby, you have to have two humans do the deed to create another human. The universe is much more complex than a baby. Something outside of the universe has to be at work. Now people have said the expanding/collapsing universe theory, which states that the universe is in a constant cycle of expanding and collapsing forever. This is not possible for a few reasons, but I'm running short on time right now.

Alright, so if you're talking about something like the kalam cosmological argument, I really suggest you should check my topic on it here :  //http://atheistforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1512. The argument contradicts itsself, and you can clearly see why.

Quote from: "will power"Another reason why I believe in the Christian God is all the extra-biblical resources that tell us and confirm of Jesus and his miracles. A few names to note down for extra-biblical Jesus references would be Cornelius Tacitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, Thallus, Pliny the younger, Celsus, Lucian of Samosata, Mara bar-serapion, flavius Josephus, The babalonian talmud, clement of rome, ignatius of antioch, quadratus of athens, aristides the athenian, Justin Martyr, and Hegesippus.

This is interesting because it looks like you're providing fiction to prove fiction (no offense). In India a lot of recources claim that krishna actually existed and fought shiva. So are you thinking about becoming a hindu now ? Of course not  :wink:

Quote from: "will power"Also, personal experiences through answered prayers and life experiences in general have shown to me that God is true and living.

I understand that you do not have a lot of time, but when you do, could you give some examples of this ?

QuoteAlso, personal experiences through answered prayers and life experiences in general have shown to me that God is true and living.

You should sign up for one of those researches where they try to measure the effect of prayer on someone's life.

(Hint: the effect of prayer on your life is always zero when observed objectively.)

*sigh* It's not worth responding to every single argument. I'll just make a short post and leave it at that, because obviously you guys are too hard hearted to have an open mind to other beliefs.

In a nutshell of what I believe:

I agree with science. I use science every day with my job. I'm not anti science. I don't care what order the universe was made in. Just because I don't care about one aspect of the universe, doesn't mean I don't care about science and we should all live like apes. I'm also not saying the Bible or scientists were wrong in their prediction of the order of the universe. And I'm not evangelizing my ideas from the street corners saying that nobody should believe in order. Horrible argument from you guys.

I'm aware of the "burden of proof" crap that you guys always bring up. But the thing is, atheists bring up claims too. "There is no God." Burden of proof. Prove that there is no God, because obviously you made a claim and you need to prove it, or at least provide credible evidence. If you don't believe in God, obviously you're making a claim that you have knowledge that there is an absolute value of no God. You need to back up that claim. It's a cop out to say "well I don't believe it, but I don't need to prove it. Everyone's just supposed to know my beliefs and serve me." If you didn't realize it, you guys are what evilbible.com and other sources call you...evangelical atheists. They're loud and evangelizing about their beliefs just as much as Christians and other religions do. Obviously you have to have a burden of proof if you're loud about how something doesn't exist. Now some will bring up the argument "Atheism means we lack belief in a God, not that we believe that there's no God. Thus the burden of proof is on you." It's the same thing! If you lack belief in a claim, you're making a claim yourself saying "I lack belief, therefore I don't believe."

Also, I am quite entertained that Atheists (well, my good friend who is an atheist anyways) claims that Atheists are one of the most tolerant groups out there. By this thread, I'd beg to differ. It's more along the lines of trolls. You ask for Christians to have meaningful debates, and yet you flame. You need to preach that to yourself before you preach that to me. And atheists call Christians hypocritical. xD

Quote from: "will power"*sigh* It's not worth responding to every single argument. I'll just make a short post and leave it at that, because obviously you guys are too hard hearted to have an open mind to other beliefs.

In a nutshell of what I believe:

I agree with science. I use science every day with my job. I'm not anti science. I don't care what order the universe was made in. Just because I don't care about one aspect of the universe, doesn't mean I don't care about science and we should all live like apes. I'm also not saying the Bible or scientists were wrong in their prediction of the order of the universe. And I'm not evangelizing my ideas from the street corners saying that nobody should believe in order. Horrible argument from you guys.

I'm aware of the "burden of proof" crap that you guys always bring up. But the thing is, atheists bring up claims too. "There is no God." Burden of proof. Prove that there is no God, because obviously you made a claim and you need to prove it, or at least provide credible evidence. If you don't believe in God, obviously you're making a claim that you have knowledge that there is an absolute value of no God. You need to back up that claim. It's a cop out to say "well I don't believe it, but I don't need to prove it. Everyone's just supposed to know my beliefs and serve me." If you didn't realize it, you guys are what evilbible.com and other sources call you...evangelical atheists. They're loud and evangelizing about their beliefs just as much as Christians and other religions do. Obviously you have to have a burden of proof if you're loud about how something doesn't exist. Now some will bring up the argument "Atheism means we lack belief in a God, not that we believe that there's no God. Thus the burden of proof is on you." It's the same thing! If you lack belief in a claim, you're making a claim yourself saying "I lack belief, therefore I don't believe."

Also, I am quite entertained that Atheists (well, my good friend who is an atheist anyways) claims that Atheists are one of the most tolerant groups out there. By this thread, I'd beg to differ. It's more along the lines of trolls. You ask for Christians to have meaningful debates, and yet you flame. You need to preach that to yourself before you preach that to me. And atheists call Christians hypocritical. xD

As usual another christian not providing one single logical argument to support their myth, and in the same breath denegrating the only thing in history (science) that has truly advanced mankind. Yes YOU and all christians are hypocrites by definition, and heres why.
Christians don't apply the same standard of proof to their own belief. In otherwords you want everyone to take your myth on faith and you want concrete emperical evidence when it comes to science. You even make stupid illogical statements like, "Do you see, where you there?"
So yes you are a hypocrite!

Wow, you just got schooled, Will. hahahah

Quote from: "will power"*sigh* It's not worth responding to every single argument. I'll just make a short post and leave it at that, because obviously you guys are too hard hearted to have an open mind to other beliefs.

Do not project your own unwillingness to listen onto people who have had this much patience to address your arguments thus far.

Quote from: "will power"I agree with science. I use science every day with my job. I'm not anti science. I don't care what order the universe was made in.

This is akin to saying, "I care, but I don't care." I cannot conceive of how you can be anything but anti-science if you don't care about the order of the universe: This is precisely what science is studying!

Quote from: "will power"Just because I don't care about one aspect of the universe, doesn't mean I don't care about science and we should all live like apes.

I swear, I am this close to breaking my "no ad hominem" rule with you, just for statements like this one. I'm trying to wrap my brain around how delinquent your education had to have been to think that science is studying something other than the universe.

Quote from: "will power"I'm also not saying the Bible or scientists were wrong in their prediction of the order of the universe. And I'm not evangelizing my ideas from the street corners saying that nobody should believe in order. Horrible argument from you guys.

(//http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JRMU8AzYrHc/UVMzsP9a57I/AAAAAAAAFeo/ZIN1KnRiZT0/s400/jackie+chan+my+brain+is+full+of+fuck+meme+blank+template+lol+wtf.jpg)

Quote from: "will power"I'm aware of the "burden of proof" crap that you guys always bring up.

Gee, I've never seen this argument coming up before... :roll:

Quote from: "will power"But the thing is, atheists bring up claims too. "There is no God." Burden of proof. Prove that there is no God, because obviously you made a claim and you need to prove it, or at least provide credible evidence.

Claiming a god doesn't exist requires that it was a proven concept in the first place. Your statement is akin to asking me to disprove the existence of flying pigs and the tooth fairy.

Quote from: "will power"If you don't believe in God, obviously you're making a claim that you have knowledge that there is an absolute value of no God. You need to back up that claim. It's a cop out to say "well I don't believe it, but I don't need to prove it. Everyone's just supposed to know my beliefs and serve me."

I don't see why I should be required to disprove the existence of a character appearing in a 2000-year-old storybook.

Quote from: "will power"If you didn't realize it, you guys are what evilbible.com and other sources call you...evangelical atheists. They're loud and evangelizing about their beliefs just as much as Christians and other religions do. Obviously you have to have a burden of proof if you're loud about how something doesn't exist.

What you are speaking of are anti-theists. We are not anti-theists. We are atheists. Get your terms straight.

Quote from: "will power"Now some will bring up the argument "Atheism means we lack belief in a God, not that we believe that there's no God. Thus the burden of proof is on you." It's the same thing! If you lack belief in a claim, you're making a claim yourself saying "I lack belief, therefore I don't believe."

(//http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/1290449/picard-facepalm-o.gif)

Quote from: "will power"Also, I am quite entertained that Atheists (well, my good friend who is an atheist anyways) claims that Atheists are one of the most tolerant groups out there. By this thread, I'd beg to differ. It's more along the lines of trolls. You ask for Christians to have meaningful debates, and yet you flame. You need to preach that to yourself before you preach that to me. And atheists call Christians hypocritical. xD

When you demonstrate zero knowledge on a subject, we correct you. When you continue to parade your own ignorance we get frustrated. The only person trolling anyone here is you. You have consistently demonstrated that you are anti-science, and the only reason you do not realize this yourself is because you don't even know the meaning of the word; this despite multiple corrections by myself and others. Normal people would have re-evaluated their arguments after my first response. You are an evangelical Christian, I have no doubt at this point, and your refusal to acknowledge the numerous holes in your argument speaks volumes of your lack of knowledge and skill in the areas of science, debate, and even philosophy I would say. If you continue this line of argument you have chosen to pursue then I kindly advise you quit while you're ahead.

Yo.

Quote from: "will power"Also, I am quite entertained that Atheists claims that Atheists are one of the most tolerant groups out there.

What idiot told you that?

Pretty sure Hijiri already said everything that needs to be said.

Also I doubt you use science for your job every day, because you don't even understand the fundamentals of what science is. So either you have to be rather bad or unremarkable at it, or you're not actually using it. I'm guessing the latter and what you're using is just technology.

Nothing about you gives me the idea you're an actual researcher.

Hello, Will.  :)