I work in an office where most of my coworkers are black and all of them are Christian. I have never met a black atheist and asked my coworkers if any of them knew any black atheists. None of them did. One of my coworkers also conducts interviews for residential living centers and said the only people who identify as atheist are white. Curious to learn more about atheism and African-American culture I came across this article which states:
Blacks are now the most religious ethnic group in America, with 86 percent saying they're "very" to "moderately" religious compared to just 65 percent of whites. Even blacks who purport to have no involvement with any church, mosque, or synagogue whatsoever are generally unwilling to reject the concept of God entirely, making African-Americans also the least likely to call themselves atheist or agnostic.
I don't know where the author obtained these statistics but if they are correct there is a bigger discrepancy between race and atheism than I realized. The article is interesting: //http://gawker.com/5911224/our-fathers-not-in-heaven-the-new-black-atheism
given that religion appeals to the poor and oppressed, it would seem a natural marriage.
I knew one at my work that was an atheist, infidel guy that started this forum, I believe, was. I believe it is because most people, including blacks, are of Southern religions because of the grief you get from the funds"mental"ist being an atheist, especially if you are black. Better to join them than fight them, as least it's not as bad as being an atheist. Solitary
Here's a Web site with info on African Americans for Humanism:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.ph ... ection=aah (http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?page=about§ion=aah)
It is part of the Council for Secular Humanism. "Free Inquiry" has a black writer. He was part of the Washington Area Secular Humanists when I was a member, until he got a job in Amherst.
Frank
:-D It's really nice to know there are some real human beings left in the world. Solitary
There are 3 black atheists here at the VOA, ALL combat veterans.. Coincidence? Hardly, but tell that to the foxhole prophets..
Oh come on, we all know there are no atheists in fox holes. :-$ 8-[ :shock: :lol: Solitary
Quote from: "aitm"given that religion appeals to the poor and oppressed, it would seem a natural marriage.
This.
Neil Degrees Tyson, and Reginald V Finley "The Infidel Guy" and Ayaan Hersi Ali to name a few.
https://www.facebook.com/BlackAtheistsofAmerica (https://www.facebook.com/BlackAtheistsofAmerica)
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/fashi ... d=all&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/fashion/african-american-atheists.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)
I enjoy listening to Neil DeGrasse Tyson's insights on Big Think and other YouTube videos.
I am a black atheist, nearly 60 and have been a non-believer my whole life.
One of my brothers is also atheist, none of the rest of my family go to church of any kind.
We were born and raised in NYC. I am now in Norfolk, Va.
I've met a black atheist on youtube. A shame there aren't more, especially considering how they were "converted" to Christianity to begin with.
On more than one occassion I've heard Tyson say he knows atheists love to claim him, but he's really just agnostic.
It can be harder for an African American atheist, many black Christians identify so strongly with traditionally black churches that rejecting the church is viewed as a betrayal of not only the religion, but of race and culture as well. In the eyes of many African Americans, you aren't 'authentically black' if you don't believe in God.
Quote from: "OtterPop"On more than one occassion I've heard Tyson say he knows atheists love to claim him, but he's really just agnostic.
If true, I would say to his face "cop out".
You cannot simply be "agnostic". The word literally means "without knowledge". It does not say what you are "without knowledge" of.
It can only serve as a qualifying word in front of "theist" or "atheist".
An "agnostic theist", is one doesn't claim they have knowledge of a god, but thinks one exists or might exist.
An "agnostic atheist", is one who doesn't claim knowledge that a god does not exist, but holds no belief at all in one.
I myself am an agnostic atheist only in the "future" context sense in that I cant know the future, but currently hold no belief in a god or gods currently. I am however, an outright atheist as far as past and current claims.
Tyson may be missing "agnostic" as far as use in the context of past present and future.
I don't think someone should avoid the word "atheist" solely on the fact that we have not lived in the future yet.
why does it matter what he calls himself?
is tribalism really that big of a deal?
The other problem with "just agnostic" is that no matter how you act in life; you must act either taking the will of god into account or not taking it into account. There's no way to justify not taking his will into account if you believe in him, because no rational person would ignore the guy who decides whether eternity is pleasant or not for you.
By not acting in accordance to the will of god, he's basically already shown us that he doesn't believe in god. He can call himself "agnostic" all he wants, but on the topic of believing or not, he doesn't believe.
It's kinda like saying "well I'm undecided on the existance of gravity" but still using the ground floor door to exit buildings 100% of the time. You might claim you haven't decided, but you clearly do believe in it, otherwise you'd occasionaly (just once, really) leave through the window as well.
Quote from: "surly74"why does it matter what he calls himself?
is tribalism really that big of a deal?
Tribalism, no. Lying, yes. Especially for a scientist. He doesn't have to associate with other atheists, or call himself a member of the "atheist group" (whatever that is. I don't think it exists). But it's simply dishonest to claim you aren't an atheist when you don't believe in any gods.
Quote from: "Plu"Quote from: "surly74"why does it matter what he calls himself?
is tribalism really that big of a deal?
Tribalism, no. Lying, yes. Especially for a scientist. He doesn't have to associate with other atheists, or call himself a member of the "atheist group" (whatever that is. I don't think it exists). But it's simply dishonest to claim you aren't an atheist when you don't believe in any gods.
It's tribalism at its finest.
has he claimed to be anything else? does anything really think he's trying to be dishonest here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzSMC5rWvos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzSMC5rWvos)
I agree with everything he says, but that doesn't change the fact that there's a name for what he is, and it's "atheist". All the extra bagage attached, while a shame and unnecessary, doesn't really change that.
You'd probably hear how silly the whole argument is if you replace the word "religious" with "race" and the word "atheist" with "black". Just because you don't want the attached bagage, doesn't change the fact that you're still one.
And just because other people are ruining the word shouldn't mean that you should stop realising what you are. All you're really doing is making things unnessarily complicated.
Although it's probably primarily the huge amount of extra bagage attached to the word in the US. But really, what people should do is try to clear up the bagage, not make the word synonymous to something really bad and then try to distance themselves from it. You'll never get anywhere that way.
Quote from: "OtterPop"On more than one occassion I've heard Tyson say he knows atheists love to claim him, but he's really just agnostic.
I could sort of agree to that, been listening to a lot of Star Talk podcasts lately. He doesn't apply the same across the board logic to religion that he does to the cosmos. IMHO I think he would still fall into the category of atheist though.
Yesterday a black coworker said she knows a black atheist but that he is really strange. I asked how so and she said "He's into, like, witchcraft and stuff." I explained that an atheist would be the last person to believe in witchcraft. Upon further discussion it became clear she divided philosophical thought into two categories: 1) Christian and 2) everything else. I should add this woman has a MBA.
QuoteI explained that an atheist would be the last person to believe in witchcraft.
There's literally nothing that would indicate an atheist is less likely to believe in witchcraft than any other person. An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in god. There's plenty around here who believe in various sorts of sillyness like that.
Of course, the divide in two categories is still really dumb. But atheists are not inherently better or less likely to believe in nonsense than anyone else. It may only seem different when you come from a highly religious place, where only people with considerable smarts and strength of character are willing to come out as atheists. Once you travel to the more secular reaches of the earth, atheists become just as dumb as your local theists.
Quote from: "Plu"QuoteI explained that an atheist would be the last person to believe in witchcraft.
There's literally nothing that would indicate an atheist is less likely to believe in witchcraft than any other person. An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in god. There's plenty around here who believe in various sorts of sillyness like that.
Really? I have not been on this board very long and had no idea there were atheist witches. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain how that works.
I don't know any black atheists .
It's simple. You don't believe in any gods, but you do believe in magic. All atheism means is "does not believe in gods". It says nothing else about you. Any other things you think when you hear "atheist" is you assigning bagage that doesn't belong with the word.
(Is Sabrina still around? She can probably explain better :))
Quote from: "GSOgymrat"Quote from: "Plu"QuoteI explained that an atheist would be the last person to believe in witchcraft.
There's literally nothing that would indicate an atheist is less likely to believe in witchcraft than any other person. An atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in god. There's plenty around here who believe in various sorts of sillyness like that.
Really? I have not been on this board very long and had no idea there were atheist witches. Perhaps someone would be kind enough to explain how that works.
Well you've got your Buddhists, your Daoists, Scientologists, Jains, none of whom necessarily worship or acknowledge any deities, and believe in "magic" to varying degrees. Now I've never heard of atheist
witches, per se, but it's not a huge stretch from this list.
Quote from: "Plu"It's simple. You don't believe in any gods, but you do believe in magic. All atheism means is "does not believe in gods". It says nothing else about you. Any other things you think when you hear "atheist" is you assigning bagage that doesn't belong with the word.
(Is Sabrina still around? She can probably explain better :))
Thank goodness I can still believe in vampires, ancient aliens, the Long Island Medium and still keep my atheist card. I assume I can believe in ghosts as long as it is not the Holy Ghost.
I used to work with a black female atheist here in San Antonio. Nice person, she passed the bar exam and moved on to better things.
O.T isn't the only black atheist we've had here on the forum. There was one, as I recall, who was moving from somewhere in the southwest(?) to NY, I think, for college last year. And I seem to vaguely recall one or two others.
Quote from: "Colanth"O.T isn't the only black atheist we've had here on the forum. There was one, as I recall, who was moving from somewhere in the southwest(?) to NY, I think, for college last year. And I seem to vaguely recall one or two others.
Hello, I'm here. I haven't posted a lot because I've been busy this summer, so I don't blame you for not knowing me.
Quote from: "aitm"given that religion appeals to the poor and oppressed, it would seem a natural marriage.
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"It can be harder for an African American atheist, many black Christians identify so strongly with traditionally black churches that rejecting the church is viewed as a betrayal of not only the religion, but of race and culture as well. In the eyes of many African Americans, you aren't 'authentically black' if you don't believe in God.
Quoted for truth. The reason I am atheist has a lot to do with me being curious, questioning, and willing to change my mind on issues very fast when I see my arguments don't hold up. Looking back I was always skeptical and it was only a matter of time before I became and atheist. Why is this important? The reason there aren't many atheists in the world is because society is strong and not falling for society's tricks only makes it that much harder when you have traditionally been oppressed. Many people I know could be atheist, but due to the strong religious culture and identifying themselves with black culture, they stay in the camp of religion.
Let's not forget Christianity was forced down black peoples throats by whites. Christianity became big in Europe and didn't penetrate Africa for a long time. All blacks know this, but they suppress this fact SO MUCH they don't even want to hear brought up. I've seen it too many times, they act like the invented Christianity, LITERALLY. There is only one saying I know that addresses this is "They (whites) beat us and blah blah blah but if they wanted to keep us down they shouldn't have given us JESUS." I am forced to go to a black church every Sunday, I know they sort of factors that create this sad situation.
Quote from: "Triple Nine"I am forced to go to a black church every Sunday, I know they sort of factors that create this sad situation.
Why are you forced to go to a black church every Sunday?
I'm guessing due to the fact that he's black and his parents make him. Those seem to be the usual reasons for it.
Quote from: "Plu"I'm guessing due to the fact that he's black and his parents make him. Those seem to be the usual reasons for it.
Sorry, I thought he was an adult in college.
Quote from: "GSOgymrat"Quote from: "Plu"I'm guessing due to the fact that he's black and his parents make him. Those seem to be the usual reasons for it.
Sorry, I thought he was an adult in college.
I soon will be in college for a month so soon I'll be able to finally do my own thing. But yes, my parents force me too. There heads seem to almost explode if I so much as disagree with them on ANYTHING.
QuoteThey (whites) beat us and blah blah blah but if they wanted to keep us down they shouldn't have given us JESUS.
holy crap on a stick...I wonder if I can use that if I ever get accused of being racist. "now see here bubba,,we gave you jesus, so I can't be racist"...
Congrats, Triple Nine! You will love college, if for no other reason than getting some independence.
Quote from: "aitm"given that religion appeals to the poor and oppressed, it would seem a natural marriage.
As a black youth, I agree with this. It comes down to the fact that Christianity offers blacks a "judgement" where their skin color is not a factor. It's appealing in that way, and blacks that were forced to come to America were basically coerced into it regardless.
Quote from: "Savior2006"Quote from: "aitm"given that religion appeals to the poor and oppressed, it would seem a natural marriage.
As a black youth, I agree with this. It comes down to the fact that Christianity offers blacks a "judgement" where their skin color is not a factor.
Unless they were Mormons in the past. I'll never understand that one (how you can want to be a member of a group that considers you to be inferior due to what you are).
> They (whites) beat us and blah blah blah but if they wanted to keep us down they shouldn't have given us JESUS.
On the contrary, the white slave owners gave the black slaves Christianity expressly to keep them down.
"It's the will of God. You wouldn't be slaves if it weren't his will."
"God made man in his own image - white."
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters..." Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22
There's a reason the US has a Bible belt, and that it conforms exactly to the locations where slavery had its greatest impact. Christians made a concerted effort before the Civil War to have preachers bring the message of enslavement through Christianity to both the slaves and the masters.
The lie of Christianity is crueler than the iron manacles of slavery. Emancipation broke the manacles, but the descendents of slaves are still mentally enslaved by false promises of Heaven.
Frank
Quote from: "Triple Nine"Let's not forget Christianity was forced down black peoples throats by whites. Christianity became big in Europe and didn't penetrate Africa for a long time. All blacks know this, but they suppress this fact SO MUCH they don't even want to hear brought up. I've seen it too many times, they act like the invented Christianity, LITERALLY. There is only one saying I know that addresses this is "They (whites) beat us and blah blah blah but if they wanted to keep us down they shouldn't have given us JESUS." I am forced to go to a black church every Sunday, I know they sort of factors that create this sad situation.
See, this is so baffling to me. I can understand the first African slaves being FORCED to turn to Christianity as a matter of survival, because if they didn't, they'd be beaten, raped, have their babies taken away, even be killed. When the guy with the whip says to worship Jesus, you either do it or suffer the consequences. But surely this couldn't be the case for all blacks. Why would they want to worship the God of the very people who enslaved them? Some of them are the very people who, even now, trample their rights and treat them as lesser citizens because of the color of their skin. Jesus is the white man's god, the guy who gave them permission to enslave Africans even as Yahweh (Jesus' dad) gave the Israelites permission to take slaves from other nations. And that's right there in the Bible, so there is no way they can deny that the God they worship is in favor of slavery.
I often think the same thing of Native Americans who are Christians. Why would they want to adopt the religion of the same people who killed them by the thousands, stole their children to be raised in white boarding schools, and forced them to live on reservations in conditions sometimes indistinguishable from some Third World places? And all they have to do is read the Bible to find that God probably finds nothing wrong with this.
Quote from: "Colanth"Quote from: "Savior2006"Quote from: "aitm"given that religion appeals to the poor and oppressed, it would seem a natural marriage.
As a black youth, I agree with this. It comes down to the fact that Christianity offers blacks a "judgement" where their skin color is not a factor.
Unless they were Mormons in the past. I'll never understand that one (how you can want to be a member of a group that considers you to be inferior due to what you are).
Then again, one could say that to the Abrahamic faiths as a whole. The entire point of the religions is that human's inherently suck and there's not a single damn thing you can do about it. Except, of course, to follow my religion. :Hangman:
I'm sure that most Christian blacks credit Jesus with freeing their ancestors from slavery, and give little thought to the fact that white slave owners used the Bible to justify owning slaves in the first place.
The same goes for Jewish, Christian and Muslim women and Christian Native Americans.
If you're born into a religion and brainwashed well enough and early enough, you accept the tenets of that religion as normal, even if they oppress you. Voting for a candidate who aligns with your opinion on a single issue, even though he's for policies that make your life miserable, is another facet of the same stupidity. How can women vote for anti-woman candidates? But they do it in droves, justifying it with single issue alignment. (Most people can't keep more than one thought in their heads.)
I was hoping this was about some badass sinister shadowy breed of atheism. BLACK ATHEISM.
If fucky sucky racisism( erm I mean baptism) didn't exist it, could've been. :evil:
Quote from: "jansnyder"I encountered a strange mentality with the Green Party in Maine. I was sort of a new member, and I didnt know that they were all Christians! I never brought up religion and others didnt mention it overly, but I gradually sorted out that they were religious, and we argued about it, and one of them said "Martin Luther King was a Christian", and there was a black member of the party as well. I gradually realized that they were very pro-Christian and that atheism was considered almost a sort of racism toward black people and that if you went against Christians, Martin Luther King might be brought up in their defence, making Christianity not only about being black but about the civil rights movement. I left the Green Party after that, and I found another party by googling "atheist party". You can see it has a few black members. I immediately joined! I see atheism as being more equal with black people, like the two races have thrown aside the clouds of religion and can stand on equal ground as normal people.
http://www.usanap.org/ (http://www.usanap.org/)
Looks like a cool organization.
Quote from: "Solitary":-D It's really nice to know there are some real human beings left in the world. Solitary
This ^ :)
Quote from: "Triple Nine"Quote from: "jansnyder"I encountered a strange mentality with the Green Party in Maine. I was sort of a new member, and I didnt know that they were all Christians! I never brought up religion and others didnt mention it overly, but I gradually sorted out that they were religious, and we argued about it, and one of them said "Martin Luther King was a Christian", and there was a black member of the party as well. I gradually realized that they were very pro-Christian and that atheism was considered almost a sort of racism toward black people and that if you went against Christians, Martin Luther King might be brought up in their defence, making Christianity not only about being black but about the civil rights movement. I left the Green Party after that, and I found another party by googling "atheist party". You can see it has a few black members. I immediately joined! I see atheism as being more equal with black people, like the two races have thrown aside the clouds of religion and can stand on equal ground as normal people.
http://www.usanap.org/ (http://www.usanap.org/)
Looks like a cool organization.
Especially since they changed their name to SPA (Secular Party of America). I always had a problem with a party based on being an atheist rather than on a vision for America...just identity politics. And it would have been hard for me to say believers who agree with their platform being welcome. The new name is more inclusive, doesn't purport to represent all atheists, and is inclusive of secularists who aren't atheists.