I welcome all challenges to God's existence, benevolence.
The misquote is a joke?
Just to get a feel, i ask.
Religious, they can't spell English, leave alone Latin.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 20, 2024, 03:53:16 PMReligious, they can't spell English, leave alone Latin.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 20, 2024, 03:53:16 PMReligious, they can't spell English, leave alone Latin.
Ah, i see.
To OP. I don't necessarily oppose your god claim. But you should make it before i could 'challenge' it.
Define what your god is, before expecting a challenge to your claim.
What's a god?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 20, 2024, 03:14:51 PMI welcome all challenges to God's existence, benevolence.
Welcome to the server.
I'll challenge your god's existence once you're done disproving the existence of space aliens.
The famous Latin quote is past tense. I altered it to the present tense, meaning I conquer all challenges.
God exists and is benevolent.
"Knowledge" can have such potent force that in all self-honesty, you cannot deny it. Absolute certainty of a thing can be delivered to the soul by God. In order to distinguish such from other ideas which are not truly "known" requires a calm, clear mind, introspection, self-honesty.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 20, 2024, 05:09:33 PM"Knowledge" can have such potent force that in all self-honesty, you cannot deny it. Absolute certainty of a thing can be delivered to the soul by God. In order to distinguish such from other ideas which are not truly "known" requires a calm, clear mind, introspection, self-honesty.
So, basically, you are the sole decider of the divine truth? And anyone in disagreeance with you is wrong "because" you are the sole arbiter of divine truth?
Edit:
Thank god we have someone here whom we know to be right because they thought about it long and hard enough without changing their mind, so much so that they MUST absolutely, and without a doubt, be completely right about it.
Ah, the because I said so argument. KMA
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 20, 2024, 05:13:25 PMSo, basically, you are the sole decider of the divine truth? And anyone in disagreeance with you is wrong "because" you are the sole arbiter of divine truth?
Edit:
Thank god we have someone here whom we know to be right because they thought about it long and hard enough without changing their mind, so much so that they MUST absolutely, and without a doubt, be completely right about it.
Every individual has the ability to communicate with God. That eliminates the need for one person to trust another (an ugly fallacy, I agree).
Ecbarrowes, If you want to believe that a God exists and is benevolent, why should that concern any of us?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 20, 2024, 05:47:32 PMEvery individual has the ability to communicate with God. That eliminates the need for one person to trust another (an ugly fallacy, I agree).
Every individual has the equal ability to communicate with God. I.e., none.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 20, 2024, 06:06:14 PMEcbarrowes, If you want to believe that a God exists and is benevolent, why should that concern any of us?
Believers like to huddle. Mutually supportive delusions, it's a thing with religion.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 20, 2024, 04:47:51 PMGod exists and is benevolent.
What is a god? You must define your terms.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 20, 2024, 05:09:33 PM"Knowledge" can have such potent force that in all self-honesty, you cannot deny it. Absolute certainty of a thing can be delivered to the soul by God. In order to distinguish such from other ideas which are not truly "known" requires a calm, clear mind, introspection, self-honesty.
So you're one of those people who thinks atheists secretly believe in God, but just pretend they don't because we're mad at him or just want to sin. Do I understand you correctly?
I wasn't indoctrinated as a child. That allowed to grow up. And to grow up without ghosts and ghoulies and things that bump in the night.
Lots of people need to grow up.
Well guys, time to call our defeat.
Ecbarrowes is right, not because of supported arguments or logic or evidence or...
No, they are right because they say they are right. And nothing beats that.
We all know, back from our elementary school days that the kid who put their fingers in their ears and went 'nananana i can't hear you' was the smartest kid in school.
Ecbarrowes may not yet have put forth a single complete claim that they want challenged.
But the moment they do, we have obviously lost.
You're wrong and I can prove it.
It's pointless to try to educate the poster, it's mind was made up when the indoctrination started when it was a child. I was never indoctrinated, never a believer.
Quote from: the_antithesis on April 20, 2024, 04:12:45 PMWhat's a god?
Jesus said, Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. God expects us to grow up and be like him. Hence God is an advanced version of ourselves.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 20, 2024, 06:06:14 PMEcbarrowes, If you want to believe that a God exists and is benevolent, why should that concern any of us?
If a benevolent creator exists, then all prospects are good for anyone with genuine desires for happiness. Of course prospects would be bad for those intent on darkness.
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 20, 2024, 07:25:47 PMSo you're one of those people who thinks atheists secretly believe in God, but just pretend they don't because we're mad at him or just want to sin. Do I understand you correctly?
I would say that "athiests" are a motley crew, just as any categorization. Certainly, some fit the descriptors you mentioned.
I'm not right because I "say so." Truth has a way of enduring time and temperament trials. Christians, like all people, can be delusional at times. They can be right at times. The task, as I see it, is to determine what is true and filter for it, so that one's brain becomes a garden of truth, pleasant and joyous to inhabit.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 21, 2024, 12:27:55 PMThe task, as I see it, is to determine what is true and filter for it, so that one's brain becomes a garden of truth, pleasant and joyous to inhabit.
You're a human and therefore not good at that.
I don't believe God exists, and I don't believe that Jesus ever existed.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 21, 2024, 12:27:55 PMI'm not right because I "say so." Truth has a way of enduring time and temperament trials. Christians, like all people, can be delusional at times. They can be right at times. The task, as I see it, is to determine what is true and filter for it, so that one's brain becomes a garden of truth, pleasant and joyous to inhabit.
So; genuinely wanting to know: by which methods do you filter for the truth: in order to eliminate your own bias?
Pray, do tell.
If, for example, as you've claimed in this thread that, and i quote, "Absolute certainty of a thing can be delivered to the soul by God."
How do you distuingish between what is absolute, divine truth shot straight into your soul, and between what is basically a misfortunate "false" thought?
The only things I can be absolutely certain of is that I exist, and I perceive.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 21, 2024, 12:09:19 PMJesus said, Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. God expects us to grow up and be like him. Hence God is an advanced version of ourselves.
Side note: My opinion of you has dropped considerably because you appear to prefer to use the King James translation of the bible, which is in an outdated version of the English language that no one ever speaks unless they're trying to sound all fruity when quoting the bible. Go on with your bad self. Just know that you sound fruity when you do it.
Quote from: Matt 5:48 in plain, modern EnglishBe perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This really doesn't tell us much. It certainly doesn't answer my question. Saying that god is perfect is like saying god is blue. Lots of things are blue. What blue thing is god? Blueberries? Blueberries are actually purple, so that would make you a liar.
Perfection is a problematic concept in the first place. I'm something of a perfectionist, which often leads to frustration. I've learned to temper that with the realization that perfection is neither attainable nor desirable. Perfection has no use. I perfect being would not create because, being perfect, would have no need to create. Creating indicates a lack and a perfect being would have no lack and therefore would not. Perfection is inert... dead.
I recommend moving forward you abandon such childish and logically fraught concepts because they do nothing but weaken your case.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 21, 2024, 12:09:19 PMGod expects us to grow up and be like him. Hence God is an advanced version of ourselves.
You must be a mormon, then. The goal of everyone becoming perfect gods in their own right is a latter-days saints concept. If it turns out you are not a part of that sect, you might want to do some thinking on the matter.
But this gives us a bit more meat to the discussion because you imply god is just a human being that has achieved perfection, which as I have previously stated is a nonsense concept and should be discarded. Another way of putting it is god has gained some form of power over the rest of us... like Donald Fuckface Trump.
As you can see, this is not something limited to or unique to god, so it's not very helpful in understanding what it is you are even talking about.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 21, 2024, 12:22:46 PMI'm waiting...
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 21, 2024, 12:22:46 PMI'm waiting...
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 21, 2024, 12:22:46 PMI'm waiting...
That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Let me ask you a few questions.
1. Do you believe that God has all the omni qualities often attributed to them? Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence?
2. Do you believe that believers go to Heaven and that unbelievers go to Hell?
3. Do you believe that God wants everyone to God to Heaven, or to know him?
And while we're asking: Where did Noah's sons find wives? Are all the humans currently on the planet the offspring of two people, NOT Adam and Eve? (Well, yeah, A&E, but from the 7th Day until the Great Fraud Flood they managed to populate the planet. Took days and days for that to happen.)
Populating and then re-populating the planet, that's a lot of fucking.
If God is omniscient, then it is not free. If God is free, then it is not omniscient.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 21, 2024, 12:09:19 PMJesus said, Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. God expects us to grow up and be like him. Hence God is an advanced version of ourselves.
This is a non-answer. What is an advanced version of ourselves? Define your terms properly.
Hmm, no OP. I guess he showed us!
Yeah, he won the "debate" by using an argument by assertion.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 21, 2024, 02:01:15 AMEcbarrowes may not yet have put forth a single complete claim that they want challenged.
But the moment they do, we have obviously lost.
Can you rephrase this? The syntax has me lost.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on April 21, 2024, 12:32:13 PMYou're a human and therefore not good at that.
True that we are all flawed, but we can choose to better ourselves or wallow or worsen ourselves.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 21, 2024, 01:01:17 PMI don't believe God exists, and I don't believe that Jesus ever existed.
The cool thing about truth is that it is independent of our disposition towards it.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 22, 2024, 05:45:19 PMCan you rephrase this? The syntax has me lost.
You say you welcome challenges, and your title of the thread implies you'll 'conquer' all of those.
But without making your claims clear, without defining the supposed attributes of your deity; you can get no 'real' challenges.
The final sentence is tongue-in-cheek, because i pretend your reasoning so far, which seems circular to me for in as much as i have been able to see of it, is in fact so vastly superior that any argument against it would fail.
Yeesh, having to explain sarcasm just drains the fun right out of it.
In any case; how about you answering my question from that same post?
After all; i did answer yours, i think
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 21, 2024, 01:18:30 PMSo; genuinely wanting to know: by which methods do you filter for the truth: in order to eliminate your own bias?
Pray, do tell.
If, for example, as you've claimed in this thread that, and i quote, "Absolute certainty of a thing can be delivered to the soul by God."
How do you distuingish between what is absolute, divine truth shot straight into your soul, and between what is basically a misfortunate "false" thought?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 22, 2024, 05:53:21 PMThe cool thing about truth is that it is independent of our disposition towards it.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 21, 2024, 01:18:30 PMSo; genuinely wanting to know: by which methods do you filter for the truth: in order to eliminate your own bias?
Pray, do tell.
If, for example, as you've claimed in this thread that, and i quote, "Absolute certainty of a thing can be delivered to the soul by God."
How do you distuingish between what is absolute, divine truth shot straight into your soul, and between what is basically a misfortunate "false" thought?
Your question is exactly apropos. Being objective about our own proclivities is a masterclass that we are all trying to graduate from. It is so seductive to believe that we are right about a thing. It is so convenient to realize that we just happen to be "right" about a thing (too convenient). Joseph Smith said, "by contrariness is the truth made known." In order to know if a thing is true, we must give it a fair trial, which includes giving all views their proper "day in court." If we only allow our favorite view its day in court, and deny opposing views the same privilege, it is a sign that we are blind.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 21, 2024, 02:31:58 PMThe only things I can be absolutely certain of is that I exist, and I perceive.
These axioms must have corollaries. Since you do exist (granted), and you do perceive (granted), therefore you must have perceptions. What are they?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 22, 2024, 06:22:29 PMYour question is exactly apropos. Being objective about our own proclivities is a masterclass that we are all trying to graduate from. It is so seductive to believe that we are right about a thing. It is so convenient to realize that we just happen to be "right" about a thing (too convenient). Joseph Smith said, "by contrariness is the truth made known." In order to know if a thing is true, we must give it a fair trial, which includes giving all views their proper "day in court." If we only allow our favorite view its day in court, and deny opposing views the same privilege, it is a sign that we are blind.
That's not really an answer to what i asked, now is it though?
You and i may agree we shouldn't believe things just because they feel intuital to us, or because we 'want' them to be true or because soemthing inside us tells us they are true, whether we believe that something to be divinely inspired, or not.
I think most on this forum would agree that is not a good way to come to understand the nature of reality. And that a sense of 'absolute certainty' of a thing, without any room for doubt or scepticism, can be a dangerous thing. (For intellectual honesty, if for nothing else.)
However, most on this forum wouldn't claim that we can receive such 'absolute certainty' through divine bestowment.
You do.
So. Again. The question: how do you differentiate in which is which.
I'm not asking for you to tell me we should all keep an open mind on what we may feel certain of.
I'm asking how you specifically can, with intellectual honesty, override that fine quality of doubt to uphold the absolute certainty you claim you can have. And how you discern in which cases it is valid, due to the divine nature of the endowed knowledge.
Quote from: the_antithesis on April 21, 2024, 02:43:35 PMSide note: My opinion of you has dropped considerably because you appear to prefer to use the King James translation of the bible, which is in an outdated version of the English language that no one ever speaks unless they're trying to sound all fruity when quoting the bible. Go on with your bad self. Just know that you sound fruity when you do it.
This really doesn't tell us much. It certainly doesn't answer my question. Saying that god is perfect is like saying god is blue. Lots of things are blue. What blue thing is god? Blueberries? Blueberries are actually purple, so that would make you a liar.
Perfection is a problematic concept in the first place. I'm something of a perfectionist, which often leads to frustration. I've learned to temper that with the realization that perfection is neither attainable nor desirable. Perfection has no use. I perfect being would not create because, being perfect, would have no need to create. Creating indicates a lack and a perfect being would have no lack and therefore would not. Perfection is inert... dead.
I recommend moving forward you abandon such childish and logically fraught concepts because they do nothing but weaken your case.
You must be a mormon, then. The goal of everyone becoming perfect gods in their own right is a latter-days saints concept. If it turns out you are not a part of that sect, you might want to do some thinking on the matter.
But this gives us a bit more meat to the discussion because you imply god is just a human being that has achieved perfection, which as I have previously stated is a nonsense concept and should be discarded. Another way of putting it is god has gained some form of power over the rest of us... like Donald Fuckface Trump.
As you can see, this is not something limited to or unique to god, so it's not very helpful in understanding what it is you are even talking about.
Quote from: the_antithesis on April 21, 2024, 02:44:48 PMThat which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
If you read about an experiment in a scientific journal, that's just words on a page, until you decide to either believe it, or repeat the experiment. Arguing all day against it is vanity. If you're a serious investigator, you'll repeat the experiment.
It is thus: call out to 'the void,' "is any[God] there? If there is a God out there, please make yourself known to me." If you are sincere, you will be responded to.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 22, 2024, 05:51:31 PMTrue that we are all flawed, but we can choose to better ourselves or wallow or worsen ourselves.
Ah, so you can choose not to be an obnoxious god botherer. Why don't you option that choice?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 22, 2024, 06:26:30 PMThese axioms must have corollaries. Since you do exist (granted), and you do perceive (granted), therefore you must have perceptions. What are they?
Sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell, and consciousness.
Consciousness is parts of my brain perceiving other parts of my brain.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 22, 2024, 06:51:12 PMIt is thus: call out to 'the void,' "is any[God] there? If there is a God out there, please make yourself known to me." If you are sincere, you will be responded to.
Your god is the Great Pumpkin?
Why didn't you just say so?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 22, 2024, 06:51:12 PMIf you read about an experiment in a scientific journal, that's just words on a page, until you decide to either believe it, or repeat the experiment. Arguing all day against it is vanity. If you're a serious investigator, you'll repeat the experiment.
It is thus: call out to 'the void,' "is any[God] there? If there is a God out there, please make yourself known to me." If you are sincere, you will be responded to.
I specifically stopped believing BECAUSE God failed to respond to me. I was working hard to serve him. I was in multiple ministries, sacrificing time, money, and free labor. I chose my field of study in college based on how I thought I would best serve God with my "gifts." Yet I saw no results. No one was coming to Jesus because of me. My plan for college was derailed when I was denied enrollment in the therapy program, although they dragged me along by letting me take some therapy classes while enrolled in general psychology. My parents were forcing me to change churches constantly, despite my wishes as an adult, causing me (someone who was homeschooled from pre-K to 12th grade) to lose my entire non-familial social circle and have to start over. Multiple. Times. I was confused and frustrated, and I prayed to God for guidance. As always, I got nothing. I even made it clear that if I didn't hear back from him, I was going to leave and never come back, because I was done serving an absent father. I still got nothing but silence. Turns out when you call out to the void, that's all you find. If you think you hear anything else, you're not calling out to the void; you're yelling in a cave, and that's your own echo you're hearing.
Also, I'll repeat my three questions, in case you missed them:
1. Do you believe that God has all the omni qualities often attributed to them? Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence?
2. Do you believe that believers go to Heaven and that unbelievers go to Hell?
3. Do you believe that God wants everyone to go to Heaven, or to know him?
If you expect to get any answers from Ecbarrowes, I think you're going to be disappointed.
Drive by pretentiousness.
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 23, 2024, 12:57:37 PMIf you expect to get any answers from Ecbarrowes, I think you're going to be disappointed.
I try to give the benefit of the doubt to new people, as long as they don't give me reason to think they're a lost cause. I was like them once.
Congrats on making it to reality. I was never programmed so I'm a little less tolerant of utter bullshit than most.
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 23, 2024, 12:26:54 PMI specifically stopped believing BECAUSE God failed to respond to me. I was working hard to serve him. I was in multiple ministries, sacrificing time, money, and free labor. I chose my field of study in college based on how I thought I would best serve God with my "gifts." Yet I saw no results. No one was coming to Jesus because of me. My plan for college was derailed when I was denied enrollment in the therapy program, although they dragged me along by letting me take some therapy classes while enrolled in general psychology. My parents were forcing me to change churches constantly, despite my wishes as an adult, causing me (someone who was homeschooled from pre-K to 12th grade) to lose my entire non-familial social circle and have to start over. Multiple. Times. I was confused and frustrated, and I prayed to God for guidance. As always, I got nothing. I even made it clear that if I didn't hear back from him, I was going to leave and never come back, because I was done serving an absent father. I still got nothing but silence. Turns out when you call out to the void, that's all you find. If you think you hear anything else, you're not calling out to the void; you're yelling in a cave, and that's your own echo you're hearing.
Also, I'll repeat my three questions, in case you missed them:
1. Do you believe that God has all the omni qualities often attributed to them? Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence?
2. Do you believe that believers go to Heaven and that unbelievers go to Hell?
3. Do you believe that God wants everyone to go to Heaven, or to know him?
In communicating with God, it is very useful to find a quiet time and space to look over the thoughts and feelings inside you. Inside your head, or soul, one can observe thoughts, feelings, and determine their origin (self, friends, family, etc.). When you encounter one that you don't know any human origin of, it could be from God, or the devil. Stuff from God generally brings peace, clarity, resolution, agrees with other things you know to be right. Things from the devil generally bring discord, darkness, contention, confusion, et al. Further examination can be profitable in order to address any doubts. Efforts bring about results. "Seek me diligently with all your heart and you will find me." This maxim requires that you give everything you can to open communication with God, and you will connect. When we ask God a question, we need to put all options on the table. That is, we need to be ready to accept the answer he gives, whatever it may be, trusting his wisdom. You told him that you're going to leave "ministering" unless he tells you otherwise. Perhaps he wanted you to leave a version of ministering where all the shots are called by your family, instead of by Him.
1. Yes, within conceivability.
2. Yes, accountability exists and God takes everything into account.
3. Definitely. He wants all his children to accept his offer.
"In communicating with God, it is very useful to find a quiet time and space to look over the thoughts and feelings inside you." And then wonder why you're wasting your time on fairies and leprechauns.
In my readings of the bable, albeit several years ago. I don't remember once where the devil, with all his machinations and evil doing, was responsible for a single death of a human. Certainly cannot say that about your almighty omniscience god. Makes one wonder who is really who.
Quote from: aitm on April 25, 2024, 06:45:35 PMIn my readings of the bable, albeit several years ago. I don't remember once where the devil, with all his machinations and evil doing, was responsible for a single death of a human. Certainly cannot say that about your almighty omniscience god. Makes one wonder who is really who.
The Devil wants to punish people eternally, despite the obviously pending monotony of that shit. So he just lets them kill themselves and profits without risk of capital.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on April 20, 2024, 07:02:29 PMWhat is a god? You must define your terms.
I've noticed you haven't answered my question yet, Ecbarrowes. I can't say I'm surprised. Theists always cower away from the simple questions.
(https://d16qt3wv6xm098.cloudfront.net/7P0QDcUCTl2PoHjFwSgqZuKhRk_9mi4h/_.png)
If you need help, you should get it.
Will we be god if we succeed in creating self-aware AI?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 25, 2024, 05:28:32 PMIn communicating with God, it is very useful to find a quiet time and space to look over the thoughts and feelings inside you. Inside your head, or soul, one can observe thoughts, feelings, and determine their origin (self, friends, family, etc.). When you encounter one that you don't know any human origin of, it could be from God, or the devil. Stuff from God generally brings peace, clarity, resolution, agrees with other things you know to be right. Things from the devil generally bring discord, darkness, contention, confusion, et al. Further examination can be profitable in order to address any doubts. Efforts bring about results. "Seek me diligently with all your heart and you will find me." This maxim requires that you give everything you can to open communication with God, and you will connect. When we ask God a question, we need to put all options on the table. That is, we need to be ready to accept the answer he gives, whatever it may be, trusting his wisdom. You told him that you're going to leave "ministering" unless he tells you otherwise. Perhaps he wanted you to leave a version of ministering where all the shots are called by your family, instead of by Him.
I'm aware that prayer is supposed to be done in quiet places. At the time, I was alone in my car, in a church parking lot on a Wednesday evening. The problem wasn't that I couldn't decipher what was God vs Satan, but that I got literally nothing.
I didn't tell God that I was leaving ministry if he didn't answer. I told him was done with him. I was getting tired of the one-way relationship, where I give everything and he can't even be bothered to answer my calls.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 25, 2024, 05:28:32 PM1. Yes, within conceivability.
2. Yes, accountability exists and God takes everything into account.
3. Definitely. He wants all his children to accept his offer.
I'm not sure you understand. If you are agreeing that God's only (or primary) measure for who gets to escape Hell and go to Heaven is belief in the right religion, then accountability is the last thing in God's priorities. By being a Christian, you essentially get to escape all accountability. Meanwhile, by believing in the wrong religion or none at all, it doesn't matter how good or bad you were in life, you burn all the same. Either way, your actions count for nothing.
There was supposedly a "war in Heaven" and God cast Satan out. However, "the winner writes the history", so who ever was the winner declared itself "God" and named the loser "Satan".
We don't know who won this supposed "war in Heaven". Convenient, that.
If there can be war in Heaven, it must not be the wonderful place it's been claimed to be. 🤔
Quote from: Unbeliever on April 26, 2024, 03:16:45 PMIf there can be war in Heaven, it must not be the wonderful place it's been claimed to be. 🤔
Obligatory:
(https://i.imgur.com/FWQstucl.jpeg)
I swear I didn't plagiarize that line! 👀
Fine, fine, fine. Now put your hands behind your back.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 22, 2024, 06:42:58 PMThat's not really an answer to what i asked, now is it though?
You and i may agree we shouldn't believe things just because they feel intuital to us, or because we 'want' them to be true or because soemthing inside us tells us they are true, whether we believe that something to be divinely inspired, or not.
I think most on this forum would agree that is not a good way to come to understand the nature of reality. And that a sense of 'absolute certainty' of a thing, without any room for doubt or scepticism, can be a dangerous thing. (For intellectual honesty, if for nothing else.)
However, most on this forum wouldn't claim that we can receive such 'absolute certainty' through divine bestowment.
You do.
So. Again. The question: how do you differentiate in which is which.
I'm not asking for you to tell me we should all keep an open mind on what we may feel certain of.
I'm asking how you specifically can, with intellectual honesty, override that fine quality of doubt to uphold the absolute certainty you claim you can have. And how you discern in which cases it is valid, due to the divine nature of the endowed knowledge.
The voice of God comes in different incarnations, but all are truth. A flash of insight, putting your project over the top, a conglomeration of tests from every angle of your idea, or a bit of divine knowledge of something after having diligently inquired of him. Introspection allows one to distinguish the source of the thoughts in your head -- family, friends, enemies, God, the devil, et al.
So you hear voices. Not surprised.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 27, 2024, 03:51:35 PMThe voice of God comes in different incarnations, but all are truth. A flash of insight, putting your project over the top, a conglomeration of tests from every angle of your idea, or a bit of divine knowledge of something after having diligently inquired of him. Introspection allows one to distinguish the source of the thoughts in your head -- family, friends, enemies, God, the devil, et al.
I see.
In your post number 27 you say:
" I'm not right because I "say so.""
Gotta say, ecbarrowes, from where i am standing, it sure does seem like all you are doing is saying you are right because "you say so".
I fail to see how anything in that last post differs from that.
You, by all accounts a fallible person like any and all others yours truly included, sure do seem to decide what thoughts in your head must be true by virtue of being god's word, based on nothing but your own thoughts.
It would seem better to have a more objective framework to start from, no?
And if you say no, maybe you'll reconcider if i tell you that i had some long introspection about that idea, and I'm pretty darn sure the lord whispered it to me to say to you.
Pardon the tongue in cheek, buddy.
But either you are willfully making an exception for your own intellect, or you are unaware thet that is what you are doing. And in case of the latter, i sincerely hope you wake up and realize how absolutely flawed that line of reasoning is
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 27, 2024, 05:11:54 PMI see.
In your post number 27 you say:
" I'm not right because I "say so.""
Gotta say, ecbarrowes, from where i am standing, it sure does seem like all you are doing is saying you are right because "you say so".
I fail to see how anything in that last post differs from that.
You, by all accounts a fallible person like any and all others yours truly included, sure do seem to decide what thoughts in your head must be true by virtue of being god's word, based on nothing but your own thoughts.
It would seem better to have a more objective framework to start from, no?
And if you say no, maybe you'll reconcider if i tell you that i had some long introspection about that idea, and I'm pretty darn sure the lord whispered it to me to say to you.
Pardon the tongue in cheek, buddy.
But either you are willfully making an exception for your own intellect, or you are unaware thet that is what you are doing. And in case of the latter, i sincerely hope you wake up and realize how absolutely flawed that line of reasoning is
As I said previously, every person has the capacity to communicate with God. That means that if you tell me that God said such and such to you, you could be correct or in error, but your assertion is not my obligation to believe it because I can take it to God myself. If you speak erroneously, you are the main recipient and victim of your error. The constraints of the processes of communicating with God can only be self-imposed and enforced because you are the the one closest to the action. If you are duplicitous with yourself, it is self-delusion. Naturally, if others believe your falsehood they will be wounding themselves by not vetting your idea properly. Contrary wise, if you speak truth and others believe it, then it's a win-win.
"You talk to God", you're religious.
"God talks to you", you're crazy.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 27, 2024, 08:07:08 PMContrary wise, if you speak truth and others believe it, then it's a win-win.
That's a big if.
It is not our obligation to believe your assertion because it is entirely possible that whether there is a god or not, you're just a know nothing dummy-dumb. You can't use presupposition to prove your position. You do not get to do that with the actual bone of contention.
If all you have are weak arguments, you will never video.
Hey guys, I have psychic powers.
Proof? Well, there are two possibilities: I have psychic powers or I don't have psychic powers.
If we start with the assumption that I have psychic powers, then it makes sense that I move pencils with my mind and talk to space aliens. Those same space aliens also say that psychic powers are a real thing because they themselves have psychic powers. How do I know this? Because they told me telepathically.
Checkmate, atheists.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 27, 2024, 08:07:08 PMAs I said previously, every person has the capacity to communicate with God. That means that if you tell me that God said such and such to you, you could be correct or in error, but your assertion is not my obligation to believe it because I can take it to God myself. If you speak erroneously, you are the main recipient and victim of your error. The constraints of the processes of communicating with God can only be self-imposed and enforced because you are the the one closest to the action. If you are duplicitous with yourself, it is self-delusion. Naturally, if others believe your falsehood they will be wounding themselves by not vetting your idea properly. Contrary wise, if you speak truth and others believe it, then it's a win-win.
All i'm still hearing here is , " i want to be able to say i am right, solely because i hope and feel like i should be right".
Which, honestly, seems sad in and by itself.
I stopped believing around 17-18-19 years old, but i haven't reasoned like that since i was probably like 13.
But as pityfull and childish qs your notion may be... were it held like a private belief... then maybe? I mean: you can't 'choose' what convinces you. You can go out there and do research to expand your knowledge. But a belief is not a choice, so up to that point; believing you are right because you 'have to be' right might still be a fallacy but it at least can make sense to you.
But to come out to the world. To say you welcome all challenges to your god and to know that the only thing you can offer in response is : "Nu-huh! My God tells me you are wrong and I am right and therefor that is that! Nah! And you should believe me because i thought about it real hard. And you are dumb for not believing me. If you talk to god he will tell you the exact same thing, but you are just too dumb and too wrong and too sinful."
... yeah, sure dude. Gottem. Checkmate.
Except, i will say: my dad can beat up your dad.
So there, i win the argument.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on April 25, 2024, 07:53:33 PMI've noticed you haven't answered my question yet, Ecbarrowes. I can't say I'm surprised. Theists always cower away from the simple questions.
God is the perfected being that Jesus instructs us to attain to.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 28, 2024, 08:37:03 AMGod is the perfected being that Jesus instructs us to attain to.
Dead?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 28, 2024, 08:37:03 AMGod is the perfected being that Jesus instructs us to attain to.
Perfection is undesirable because perfection is useless.
Every time you say your god is perfect, you are saying your god is useless.
I want you to remember this so you will understand. It's because your talking points are poorly thought out and are not only unconvincing, but unappealing. This is why you fail.
Don't try to make him think, he's just here for the Heaven Points.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 28, 2024, 08:37:03 AMGod is the perfected being that Jesus instructs us to attain to.
This is a non-answer, and I will once again require that you define your terms. What is a perfect being? Why does Jesus' opinion of it matter? Assuming you mean the character in the Bible, who has four distinct and conflicting characterizations across the four gospels, do you have any evidence that he even existed? And if so, which of the four versions?
Quote from: Blackleaf on April 26, 2024, 08:32:37 AMI'm aware that prayer is supposed to be done in quiet places. At the time, I was alone in my car, in a church parking lot on a Wednesday evening. The problem wasn't that I couldn't decipher what was God vs Satan, but that I got literally nothing.
I didn't tell God that I was leaving ministry if he didn't answer. I told him was done with him. I was getting tired of the one-way relationship, where I give everything and he can't even be bothered to answer my calls.
I'm not sure you understand. If you are agreeing that God's only (or primary) measure for who gets to escape Hell and go to Heaven is belief in the right religion, then accountability is the last thing in God's priorities. By being a Christian, you essentially get to escape all accountability. Meanwhile, by believing in the wrong religion or none at all, it doesn't matter how good or bad you were in life, you burn all the same. Either way, your actions count for nothing.
You were tired of praying all your life as if to a stone wall, concluding that the God you were praying to was no more an intelligent, benevolent being than a rock with writing on it. It seems to me that you cast God in the image of parents who expected your obedience without discussion. God is not that way. He expects and requires your constant attention and is there to answer your every concern as the best kind of doting father, giving attention to the minutest of details and concerns. If you have a question, he wants you to have an answer to it, if you will allow it. You need to open your mind to the possibility of a God that can and wants to have a two way relationship.
My definition of "religion" is more enlightened than some. Mine defines it as the sum of what you do and are. If you call yourself a Christian and hate your neighbor, then you are clearly not following Christ. In the parable of the two sons, Jesus condemned lip service, praising those who actually do right after having said "no," a bit like your benevolent athiests. They are more Christian than posers. Your parents seem to be suffering from the lie that God ceased two way communication after the new testament was written.
You, sir, are full of shit.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on May 02, 2024, 09:26:18 AMYou were tired of praying all your life as if to a stone wall, concluding that the God you were praying to was no more an intelligent, benevolent being than a rock with writing on it. It seems to me that you cast God in the image of parents who expected your obedience without discussion. God is not that way. He expects and requires your constant attention and is there to answer your every concern as the best kind of doting father, giving attention to the minutest of details and concerns. If you have a question, he wants you to have an answer to it, if you will allow it. You need to open your mind to the possibility of a God that can and wants to have a two way relationship.
No. I expected two-way communication. I just didn't get it. I prayed alone before bed, basically doing what's known as "mindfulness meditation," but with the expectation that God would send me his thoughts as I quieted my own. I also prayed in the car before class in college, and throughout the day, but without the bowing my head and all that. Basically, I could be walking and praying, and no one could tell from just looking at me. I imagined it as if Jesus was standing right beside me. I was also reading the Bible in my own time; something most Christians never do. Even when my parents forced me to change churches, while I hated it, I figured God had something to teach me.
But after years and years of doing this, the delusion was starting to break. I would think God was telling me one thing, then it would turn out to be false. I'd pray for others' well-being, just to find out things got worse. There was literally nothing to suggest that God was communicating with me at all, much less listening. I don't have to convince myself that you are real, because that is self-evident. Why should God be held to different standards?
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on May 02, 2024, 09:26:18 AMMy definition of "religion" is more enlightened than some. Mine defines it as the sum of what you do and are. If you call yourself a Christian and hate your neighbor, then you are clearly not following Christ. In the parable of the two sons, Jesus condemned lip service, praising those who actually do right after having said "no," a bit like your benevolent athiests. They are more Christian than posers. Your parents seem to be suffering from the lie that God ceased two way communication after the new testament was written.
While Biblically inaccurate, this is a more palatable take. I prefer this to the more Biblically accurate, but more ridiculous belief that faith in the correct version of Christianity is required to be saved.
I also find it funny that people use "neighbor" as a synonym for "stranger," when Jesus made it clear that he only cared about the Jews. The story of the good Samaritan? Samaritans were Jews. He was telling Jews to look out for each other. When gentiles asked Jesus for help, he would ignore them. Like with the woman who had the "issue of blood." She was following Jesus around long enough for the disciples to get sick of her pleas and ask Jesus to shoo her off. Jesus compares her to a dog, telling her that he wouldn't waste his miracles on her, and he only changed his mind when she said that even dogs get the crumbs that fall off the table.
"He was just testing her."
For what? A lack of self-respect? Well, I guess she passed. Congratulations, lady, you need therapy!
Christianity was a Jewish sect until Paul decided to open it up to gentiles. It should be called Paulism, because he's the one who founded the religion people follow today. Jesus said anyone would be cursed if they removed a single letter from the law of the prophets, then Paul came along as was like, "Shellfish is cool. Pork? Eat it if you want. Circumcision? Optional. Don't worry about it."
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on May 02, 2024, 09:26:18 AM... God is not that way. He expects and requires your constant attention and is there to answer your every concern as the best kind of doting father, giving attention to the minutest of details and concerns. If you have a question, he wants you to have an answer to it, if you will allow it. You need to open your mind to the possibility of a God that can and wants to have a two way relationship.
So your god is not perfect. You just call it perfect despite the lacks it must fulfill. A perfect being requires nothing by definition. A perfect being would have no wants.
Is God both perfectly good and perfectly evil? Is God both perfectly beautiful and perfectly ugly? Is God both perfectly powerful and perfectly weak?
That word "perfect" doesn't really mean much of anything at all.
Humans are frequently full of perfect bullshit.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on May 02, 2024, 09:26:18 AMMy definition of "religion" is more enlightened than some.
He who must claim to be enlightened isn't.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on May 02, 2024, 06:02:32 PMHe who must claim to be enlightened isn't.
Fer shure, good budgie.
Quote from: aitm on April 28, 2024, 09:17:24 AMDead?
Jesus died, suffered for wrongdoers, in the hope that they would repent. I think that trumps the other (albeit very noble, and in the same vein as) dying example of yours.
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on May 02, 2024, 02:43:11 AMThis is a non-answer, and I will once again require that you define your terms. What is a perfect being? Why does Jesus' opinion of it matter? Assuming you mean the character in the Bible, who has four distinct and conflicting characterizations across the four gospels, do you have any evidence that he even existed? And if so, which of the four versions?
The variations in the four gospels tend to confirm Jesus's existence rather than conflict it because multiple witnesses always express a bit of conflicting information due to their different perspectives and personalities.
What is a perfect being? A very apropos question. Clearly, if there is a being such as a perfect God, who is far and away better than us in every way, then certainly we do not and cannot fully comprehend his full nature until we attain his degree of perfection. All I can really say is that in my experience and perception, he has "blown my mind" in every metric.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on May 07, 2024, 03:24:55 AMThe variations in the four gospels tend to confirm Jesus's existence rather than conflict it because multiple witnesses always express a bit of conflicting information due to their different perspectives and personalities.
Incorrect, and irrelevant to my question. Wildly different accounts of his life are not "a bit of conflicting information" and certainly aren't evidence the man existed. Try again.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on May 07, 2024, 03:24:55 AMWhat is a perfect being? A very apropos question. Clearly, if there is a being such as a perfect God, who is far and away better than us in every way, then certainly we do not and cannot fully comprehend his full nature until we attain his degree of perfection. All I can really say is that in my experience and perception, he has "blown my mind" in every metric.
It never ceases to amaze me how theists can use so many words to say absolutely nothing.
Answer my question properly or begone.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on May 07, 2024, 03:11:55 AMJesus died, suffered for wrongdoers, in the hope that they would repent. I think that trumps the other (albeit very noble, and in the same vein as) dying example of yours.
Going from wandering desert bum to a god is not a sacrifice. Hell of an upgrade. Beside, the reality of the absurdity of the whole scenario is it is pure fantasmic bullshit. If that was the best plan an all knowing god could come up with, one is not surprised at the rest of his lengthy failures.
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on May 07, 2024, 03:11:55 AMJesus died, suffered for wrongdoers, in the hope that they would repent. I think that trumps the other (albeit very noble, and in the same vein as) dying example of yours.
You really shouldn't be using the same methods as internet sexual predators.
Quote from: the_antithesis on May 07, 2024, 11:14:30 AMYou really shouldn't be using the same methods as internet sexual predators.
...and priests.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 07, 2024, 11:55:41 AM...and priests.
Don't confuse the man. He's already loopy.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on May 07, 2024, 11:55:41 AM...and priests.
(https://y.yarn.co/a282faf0-f59d-4def-88ac-5240dfdbd169_text.gif)
FYI, the Gospels are not eyewitness accounts. Experts agree that the Gospels were written well after Jesus' death by anonymous authors. The names were attached to the books way later. And they were not written independently, either. The authors were well aware of each other's work, with later books directly copying passages from earlier ones verbatim, and sometimes "correcting" each other based on their agenda. They disagree on important details like Jesus' lineage, his home town, how he got there, what his final words were, how many (if any) people saw him after his resurrection, etc.
Additionally, even if we were to grant the assumption that the authors of the Gospels were eyewitnesses, that doesn't help you much anyway. Eyewitness testimonies are among the weakest forms of evidence, because memory is highly unreliable. People can witness a murder up close and get basic information, like the color of the murderer's skin, completely wrong.
I'm not convinced that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. There were a lot of guys named Jesus in those days, but I don't think there was a place called Nazareth until the fourth century.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 07, 2024, 07:52:15 PMbut I don't think there was a place called Nazareth until the fourth century.
The town known as Nazareth today has probably been continiously occupied for the at least the last 10,000 years. It was certinally occupied during the late Hellenistic and early Roman periods, but the whole population was probably just a few family groups.
You can read an article here: https://www.timesofisrael.com/listen-what-do-we-know-about-nazareth-in-jesus-time-an-archaeologist-explains/
Or get into some of the nitty gritty here: https://web.archive.org/web/20200526102938/http://www.atiqot.org.il/download.ashx?id=1797
Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on May 07, 2024, 05:11:20 AMAnswer my question properly or begone.
Been two and a half weeks. I think it's safe to say our boy picked option 2.
(https://media1.tenor.com/m/hAmGeJ2fiHsAAAAC/godzilla-vs-kong-godzilla.gif)
Quote from: Ecbarrowes on April 20, 2024, 05:47:32 PMEvery individual has the ability to communicate with God. That eliminates the need for one person to trust another (an ugly fallacy, I agree).
I don't have the ability to communicate with God assuming you mean 2 way communication.
You know, it feels good to hear a theist say it for a change.
Every human being has the same ability to communicate with God as with Bugs Bunny.