Which regimes have killed more people: capitalistic or communistic regimes?
Have the ''mass killings'' by Communist countries been exaggerated by some people/authors/history books, etc? How many has Communism actually killed? Does Communism pose any real danger, etc.?
As you can see, there are several issues at hand...
Quote from: Susan on November 29, 2022, 07:09:14 PMWhich regimes have killed more people: capitalistic or communistic regimes?
Have the ''mass killings'' by Communist countries been exaggerated by some people/authors/history books, etc? How many has Communism actually killed? Does Communism pose any real danger, etc.?
As you can see, there are several issues at hand...
Not sure how to make any comparison that makes sense. Must define the two terms--capitalism and communism-- before a comparison can be made. For example, what is communism? Have there ever been a govt. based upon Marx's definition? I don't think so off the top of my head. I think each govt. that claims to be based upon communist teachings ends up being quite different. Same with capitalism. Do we have pure Adam Smith capitalism in this country? Have we ever had it? Seems we have a mixed bag of stuff we call capitalist which is mixed with socialism and corporationism.
It would take a book to sort this all out--something I'm not going to do.
Quote from: Susan on November 29, 2022, 07:09:14 PMWhich regimes have killed more people: capitalistic or communistic regimes?
Have the ''mass killings'' by Communist countries been exaggerated by some people/authors/history books, etc? How many has Communism actually killed? Does Communism pose any real danger, etc.?
As you can see, there are several issues at hand...
Without researching the numbers and going purely off the top of my head (i.e. - of zero worth)...
Capitalism has arguably killed and tortured more due to it being so intrinsically linked to imperialism (both "traditional" iron and shot as well as "soft" imperialism like corporate exploitation of the third world) and it's longer history, but given enough time and similar circumstances and communism likely would be equal.
Yes.
Who knows? Far too many for it to have any justification as a system, anyways.
Yes; any ideology that advocates for violence as a means to achieve it's goal inherently poses danger.
Quote from: Susan on November 29, 2022, 07:09:14 PMWhich regimes have killed more people: capitalistic or communistic regimes?
Have the ''mass killings'' by Communist countries been exaggerated by some people/authors/history books, etc? How many has Communism actually killed? Does Communism pose any real danger, etc.?
As you can see, there are several issues at hand...
That's a *LOT* of ground to cover, and quite the combustible material to work with.
And I'll echo the calls to define your terms, since communism is commonly used as an epithet for literally anything someone doesn't like ("communism" ranges from Dr Seuss books to vegan meat to any instance of government regulation or taxation whatsoever) and capitalism is similarly somewhat nebulous (mercantilism? laissez-faire? welfare? late-stage?)
But I will offer this: much is to be feared by the man of one book as well as a simplistic understanding of human nature and economics.
Yep, one's "just as bad as the other".
I am sorry that I am not keeping up with the thread, RL has been really tough this month or so. 😭
Quote from: Susan on November 29, 2022, 07:09:14 PMWhich regimes have killed more people: capitalistic or communistic regimes?
Have the ''mass killings'' by Communist countries been exaggerated by some people/authors/history books, etc? How many has Communism actually killed? Does Communism pose any real danger, etc.?
As you can see, there are several issues at hand...
My answer to the Argumentum ad Stalinum is to point out the genocidal dictators were also men, in every case, so the problem may be testosterone more than communism. Correlation is not causation.
I mean, I think we can reasonably conclude that authoritarian/dictatorial governments are undesirable and that command economies don't work very well. There's a reason why existing communist countries operate on a mixed market economy as do a lot of capitalist countries.
Quote from: Hydra009 on January 02, 2023, 03:07:22 PMauthoritarian/dictatorial governments
Not directly related to the questions made by me in the OP, but since I'm not American, I would like to ask you and/or the others: would it be correct to describe the Trump government (2017-2021) as "fascist"?
Quote from: Susan on January 17, 2023, 02:02:16 AMNot directly related to the questions made by me in the OP, but since I'm not American, I would like to ask you and/or the others: would it be correct to describe the Trump government (2017-2021) as "fascist"?
(https://slideplayer.com/slide/15079484/91/images/3/WHAT+IS+FASCISM+DEFINITION.jpg)(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbZKP3_UcAA_coP.jpg)
Yes. And this would have been super obvious if the redcaps had been able to install Trump as an unelected ruler by overriding the rule of law and democracy through violence on Jan 6th.
Thnaks for the explanation.
I think capitalism existed for about 3 maybe 4 years sometime about the late 1600's around New England area, but mostly restricted to beaver trappers......
I like beaver - oh, wait, you mean the animal... 🦫
What about Cuba? Is it a really bad country (as in, poor, etc)?
Two of my colleagues are going there for holiday next week, for holiday, for a while. I´ll have them check it out ;)
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 18, 2023, 01:11:38 AMTwo of my colleagues are going there for holiday next week, for holiday, for a while. I´ll have them check it out ;)
Countries known for their tourism tend not to be so great to live in. They exploit their own people, and their economy relies too much on foreign business.
Good point.
Che Guevara was really that bad?
I was at Gitmo years before it was turned into a daycare for bin Ladin's bad boys. Just another island. (We only left the base to have a gun battle with the Cuban Navy.)
Quote from: Susan on April 28, 2023, 06:15:54 AMChe Guevara was really that bad?
I would say so, yes; what did he fundamentally achieve & what did it cost?
I've killed a fair few Commies. Never bothered shooting at anybody going away from me.
Problem with communism is, its an idea not a system. And overall if you remove people you consider "upper class, threat" to that ideal system, then obviously that would mean the Communist party is the only party with no national elections or oppositions (you see the problem here right?). And another problem with Communism is, if nobody is getting paid or rewarded for something that requires more effort, then obviously people will just not see the point in working.
The closest to working is Social Democracy "Though i hate the Norwegian and Swedish model" i prefer Danish model, due to Centralized decentralized government + social democracy. Basically making work market more effecient. Whereas Norway and Sweden has Social Democracy part right, but its so centralized that its bureaucratic and depressing in comparison.
Quote from: Shiranu on April 28, 2023, 02:46:47 PMI would say so, yes; what did he fundamentally achieve & what did it cost?
I admire Che though. I mean yeah the system he set up wasnt good. But interms of certain corruption removal of Cuba i atleast admire him more than i do Soviet Union and Communist China. Since atleast Che fought for something outside just power alone.
'70-'72 I converted a fair few commies to more peaceful viewpoints.
Ain't nothin' more peaceful than a dead man.
Quote from: Kemba9 on June 03, 2023, 10:23:24 AMI admire Che though. I mean yeah the system he set up wasnt good. But interms of certain corruption removal of Cuba i atleast admire him more than i do Soviet Union and Communist China. Since atleast Che fought for something outside just power alone.
Sure, "something" - which would just lead to corruption and concentration of power.
At *best* he was an ignorant, blood-thirsty, misguided idealist... and I'm really stressing the "at best" part.
Quote from: Shiranu on June 03, 2023, 10:29:26 PMSure, "something" - which would just lead to corruption and concentration of power.
At *best* he was an ignorant, blood-thirsty, misguided idealist... and I'm really stressing the "at best" part.
Bloodthirsty? Whom exactly did he kill? Do you have at least one source to point out to?
https://youtu.be/nkBXFXwGuJE?si=6h12ZgU9M7j-lDeO
FDR didn't personally kill anyone I know of. Millions died in WW2.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on November 02, 2023, 07:15:46 AMFDR didn't personally kill anyone I know of. Millions died in WW2.
FDR?
Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on February 22, 2025, 07:50:11 AMFranklin Delano Roosevelt.
Ah, ok. I didn't know that that was his "shorthand".
Quote from: Susan on March 12, 2025, 05:41:35 AMAh, ok. I didn't know that that was his "shorthand".
EVERYBODY called him "FDR" back in the day. (Along with less polite epithets from the hard right.)
Quote from: Susan on March 12, 2025, 05:41:35 AMAh, ok. I didn't know that that was his "shorthand".
Are you from Yugoslavia or something? Americans all know him as FDR because we're too lazy to say the full name.
The obsession with communism is kind of ridiculous. We should be more concerned with fascism. Violent, corrupt regimes, like what Russia has. Because of the Right's obsession with Communism, they fail to recognize their own enemies, including the ones grabbing for absolute power in our own country.
Well, fascism is a political ideology and communism is an economic ideology. So they're adjacent but not the same or necessarily mutually exclusive.
All of this is moot since the USSR has collapsed decades ago and our president and his cronies are Russian assets.
There has never been a single more efficient system of governance for the wholesale extermination of humans and the destruction of the environment than communism - it is the bloody ideals of the 1700-1800 made manifest in their most brutish and rudimentary of form.
Quote from: Shiranu on March 12, 2025, 03:07:58 PMThere has never been a single more efficient system of governance for the wholesale extermination of humans and the destruction of the environment than communism - it is the bloody ideals of the 1700-1800 made manifest in their most brutish and rudimentary of form.
There has. It's called America. Nearly every violent dictator in existence was put in power as a puppet for American interests. It happens every single time a country tries to go socialist.
For example, who put Augusto Pinochet in power? Every single death under his regime is on America's hands.
As the Soviet Union withdrew from Manchuria in 1946 they left hundreds of captured Japanese tanks, airplanes, artillery pieces and hundreds of thousands of small arms and ammunition to be donated to the PLA; from 1945 to 1949 the Soviet Union would donate up to $4,000,000,000 in modern dollars to ensure Mao's success over the Kuomintang.
Cambodia's Communist parties were assisted by both the the Chinese and the Soviet Union - overthrowing the Khmer Republic established in 1970 with the communist Khmer Rouge after 30 years of conflict for control of the country.
Al Khomeini in Iran; Kim in North Korea; Al Asad in Syria, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, Julius Malema in South Africa, Mugabe in Zimbabwe...
Almost "every violent dictator in existence" is within the current sphere of the Marxist globe, not the West; and their death toll exceeds by magnitudes anything America instigated.
Take the 3 bloodiest communist regimes and you have more death than the 30 bloodiest dictatorships elsewhere.
Or in other words...
Compared to communist regimes, Pinochet looks like Jimmy Carter.
Never killed a fascist. If I did it wouldn't have been my first choice, Mom was used to having him around.
Perhaps it's a media amplification bias - that the "communists" in America seem more a problem than they are due to the media giving self-identified Marxists the mega-phone?
As of writing, there are currently 7 sitting members of the Democratic Socialists of America political organization in Congress; Greg Casar, Jamaal Bowman, Rashida Tlaib, Ocasio-Cortez, Cori Bush, Summer Lee, and Bernie Sanders.
Outside of the DSA but in a majority voting consensus with them, other major voices include Ilhan Omar (more on her in a bit,) Ayanna Pressley, Pramila Jayapal, Ro Khanna, Barbara Lee, Mark Pocan, Elizabeth Warren, and Ed Markey - several being very notable instigators and defenders of not just racist thought and racist violence but in also (at least offering) legal defenses for rioters.
We have watched communists march through the streets of Philly, Baltimore, Austin - we have watched billions of dollars in property damage done by leftist revolutionaries across the nation, watched as criminals have been given commuted sentences so that they can go murder and abuse someone else by progressive judges, listened to the dehumanizing language of leftists not just about us but of minority and vulnerable groups that don't vote as they were told to or have a complexion not to their liking.
I recently read a post by another individual who had escaped the radical left; and in it he said something I fear may be true - the only escape is through banishment, you cannot be reasoned out of the ideology. The reality is they wield weapon so awesome in power and scope that until it has been trained on you... you simply cannot understand the magnitude of the machine you have found yourself turned into a cog for nor can you even understand the purpose of it's horrible design.
Revolutionists dominate the media sphere; Revisionists dominate the academic world; and another certain R leads the political movement that grows in America and has dominated Europe into a sick joke of what it once was
That's if I had to give a short answer of why Americans are tired of "communists..."
(Also, forgot to get back to Ilhan Omar - long story short, her father was a colonel for the Marxist "Scientific Socialist" Siad Barre, a brutal dictator in Somalia overthrown in 1990 that lead to her family being expelled from the country.
Or we could mention Kamala Harris' father being a 3-decades and globally decorated Marxist professor, Jamie Raskin family being linked to the radical pedology and left-wing think tanks of the 1970s, the Democrats handing of the Middle East and Africa to communist and socialist regimes over the decades, etc.)
On the inner lip of my gun tub there was a handwritten comment: "I'm not a Communist but I used to kill them."
Wasn't personal.
Hi everyone, joined just up on recommendation from a member.
And primarily to give this thread my 2 cents.
Please indulge me.
I think in the OP, the terms "communist" and "capitalist" are being applied in a very arbitrary way. For starters, neither is a type of government; one is a way to profit from lending or investing private property, the other is the organization and sharing of work and profits on the level of a small enterprise.
Maybe it would make more sense to separate Democratic and Autocratic regimes.
If not, then there are a lot of countries that really shouldn't be considered Communist (as the economy and profits are controlled by a single leader or elite, not by the workers), and a lot of countries that should be considered Capitalist.
The entire Trans Atlantic Slave Trade was a Capitalist project. So was the extermination and enslavement of Middle and South America for the extraction of precious metals. The Dutch and British East India Companies were Capitalist companies with the power and possessions of countries. And the extraction of Rubber from the Congo by King Leopold II of Belgium was a Capitalist project run by the ruler of a country.
And, of course, depending on your definitions, Nazi Germany was Capitalist.
All these together have a toll of death and misery that can easily hold up to whatever atrocities one wants to attribute to "Communist Regimes", even when most of them are just Autocracies.
The "Opium war," when Britain forced China to trade their tea for the opium from India, was also a capitalist enterprise.
We get it, "capitalism am bad".
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on March 19, 2025, 08:42:42 AMWe get it, "capitalism am bad".
I thought the OP question was: is it better than Communism ?
There are humans involved, so nothing is "good".