is anyone here a part of any marxist groups in their area?
I'm curious.
I've seen more marxist groups popping up in the states, some are more libertarian forms of leninism, whilst others are just random forms of marxism
I'm personally a marxist and I'm just curious
Uhm, I know too little to comment about Marxism, but I am a technocrat. Basically, I think that only competent people should be able to be voted in ...
You never know. Anyone could be called a Marxist, Nazi, Fascist, Socialist, Communist, or some sort of 'phobe at any time, but to my knowledge, I have never been associated with a Marxist group.
Not a member of any such group but I've wiped a few out in my day.
Do you mean one of those philosophy debate groups that members actually know that Marxism is not some sort of a 'Russian' movement founded by a man called Karl Marx to impose 'a regime' called 'communism' OR you mean some sort of a social agitation club that full of men with side burns who think Bukowski is the best thing happened to the world literature drinking and cussing all day to everything in their 'high brand' vintage outfits from 60s?
I really don't see any other functional Marxist groups existing today. :lol:
Not me. Not fond of Commies, Nazis, or other political philosophies that oppose freedom and democracy.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 12, 2016, 08:29:20 AM
Do you mean one of those philosophy debate groups that members actually know that Marxism is not some sort of a 'Russian' movement founded by a man called Karl Marx to impose 'a regime' called 'communism' OR you mean some sort of a social agitation club that full of men with side burns who think Bukowski is the best thing happened to the world literature drinking and cussing all day to everything in their 'high brand' vintage outfits from 60s?
I really don't see any other functional Marxist groups existing today. :lol:
I mean groups that are actually talking about potential strategies to spreading communist viewpoints and eventually a marxist takeover of the government.
Quote from: Atheon on November 12, 2016, 08:33:19 AM
Not me. Not fond of Commies, Nazis, or other political philosophies that oppose freedom and democracy.
quite alot of communists are against authoritarianism, tankies are generally hated among the communists ive been around.
I like Rage Against the Machine. (Perfect time for a reunion, btw) Other than that, no.
Quote from: Sal1981 on November 12, 2016, 06:59:59 AM
Uhm, I know too little to comment about Marxism, but I am a technocrat. Basically, I think that only competent people should be able to be voted in ...
That is what Socrates is claimed by Plato to have said in The Republic ... and Socrates probably did say it. Basically if you are potter, do pottery ... if you are a doctor, do medicine ... the usual professional ethics, but for everyone, not just licensed professionals. Whatever you are good at, do that, and not try to do more than one thing, just the one thing you are good at. Since most people are evidently bad at voting, obviously most people should not vote. Socrates was part of an Athens that had pure democracy (for 6000 White male citizens only). Athenian juries had 300 - 600 people on them ... the more the merrier. Plato's ultimate conclusion (probably not Socrates) is that philosophers like him, should rule (not be elected). Both Marxism and Fascism trade on having read The Republic. It is monarchists who are opposed to it (hence small R republicanism is from Plato). Plato was an aristocrat, not a monarchist ... he thought like Jefferson, that talent can come from any family, should be identified early (as Pamela Harriman did with Bill Clinton) and nurtured. Monarchists on the other hand, believe their semen is magic invariably.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 12, 2016, 08:29:20 AM
Do you mean one of those philosophy debate groups that members actually know that Marxism is not some sort of a 'Russian' movement founded by a man called Karl Marx to impose 'a regime' called 'communism' OR you mean some sort of a social agitation club that full of men with side burns who think Bukowski is the best thing happened to the world literature drinking and cussing all day to everything in their 'high brand' vintage outfits from 60s?
I really don't see any other functional Marxist groups existing today. :lol:
I thought that all Frenchmen of the 50s, who weren't Existentialists ... were Communists (of the French sort) ;-) Russia used to say that France is the only country that got Marxism right.
I like the Marxist group that Groucho fronts for.
Quote from: Jannabear on November 12, 2016, 09:16:00 AM
I mean groups that are actually talking about potential strategies to spreading communist viewpoints and eventually a marxist takeover of the government.
They don't exist.
I would be happy to discuss the topic with you ... since I freely color outside the box ... and was well read on Marxism (as part of the Cold War) in my youth.
So you actually think that industrialization makes a phase change in human cultural/social/political evolution? What about the computer revolution. For technologists, revolution is so trite and commercialized. You read the Communist Manifesto ... it isn't very long. One thing in it I support is free public education (this should include college though). Is dialectical materialism a real thing for you?
They don't exist as groups however, just intellectuals. Slavoj Zizek is the leading European Marxist. Mr Varoufakis is a functioning Marxist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4vHSiotAFA ... he is always worth listening to, and he talks a lot like Shoe ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB4s5b9NL3I ... the only recent Marxist in public service ... in Greece ... and in office only 6 months.
Of course thinkers like this are mind blowing to Americans posting here. In this video, Varoufakis is quoting Yugoslavia under Tito.
Here is a good place to start ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3u4EFTwprM
Marxism is history based (even if Marx's historiography has been obsoleted) ... so I am down with that -) Also Marxism takes class difference and class struggle seriously, whereas America is fatally Middle Class (who ignores class and class struggle). There is no solidarity, when your class (the 99%) is divided into individuals (conveniently for the 1%).
“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.†― Warren Buffett
Americans are such gullible rubes, just ask the Trump or Hillary voters ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on November 12, 2016, 10:07:10 AM
So you actually think that industrialization makes a phase change in human cultural/social/political evolution?
If you don't then you need to make an explanation here. Did you discover something that can acually collapse modern socio-politics? And of course anything filed under the development in the last 200 years? :lol:
Quotehe is always worth listening to, and he talks a lot like Shoe ;-)
I completely agree with his dream, he is describing a widely known ultimate fantasy of America. I don't share his optimism and hope for the awekening. I find it naive.
Corporate democracy do not get to reboot itself because of an 8 years of Trump reign. Substructure ---> superstructure. Fascism gets along with capitalism very nicely. Conjoint twins.
Chomsky explains perfectly how the American dictatorship works, why it is a dictatorship and why we don't/can't see it as dictatorship at all. You don't need to go for populist, commercial intellectuals.
Quote from: Jannabear on November 12, 2016, 06:55:54 AM
is anyone here a part of any marxist groups in their area?
I'm curious.
I've seen more marxist groups popping up in the states, some are more libertarian forms of leninism, whilst others are just random forms of marxism
I'm personally a marxist and I'm just curious
What would a marxist group believe in? So, I'm asking--to you, what is a marxist and what ideals do they follow?
Quote from: drunkenshoe on November 12, 2016, 11:42:11 AM
If you don't then you need to make an explanation here. Did you discover something that can acually collapse modern socio-politics? And of course anything filed under the development in the last 200 years? :lol:
I completely agree with his dream, he is describing a widely known ultimate fantasy of America. I don't share his optimism and hope for the awekening. I find it naive.
Corporate democracy do not get to reboot itself because of an 8 years of Trump reign. Substructure ---> superstructure. Fascism gets along with capitalism very nicely. Conjoint twins.
Chomsky explains perfectly how the American dictatorship works, why it is a dictatorship and why we don't/can't see it as dictatorship at all. You don't need to go for populist, commercial intellectuals.
If we are talking Marxism .. not watered down Marxism (socialism) or watered down socialism (progressivism) ... and yes, Marx was an optimist ... just as Capitalists are ... only different. But Marxism/Capitalism both break on the elitist/populist divide. This is why Leninism isn't Marxism. There have been multiple industrial revolutions for 250 years now ... and progressives think this is good, and will continue (no end to history) ... and Marx saw an end to history. a return to Israel eschaton. I see an apocalypse, of negative proportions, hence I am not a progressive.
Some points ... Hegel created secularized Christian theology (and democratic socialism, with sociology profs as the revolutionary cadre). Marx took off on that, creating secularized rabbinic theology (with classic messianic pretensions), with the secularized rabbis as the revolutionary cadre. All messiahs are false ... even secular Jewish ones (see Israel).
Full automation is Marx's and Smith's wet dream. Except it won't make us all wealthy ... you can't do that in a still feudal structure (see Europe in particular). Ever read Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy ... that is the plain vanilla socialist dream that leads to Star Trek Next Generation. Star Trek Classic was classic American fascism.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 12, 2016, 12:07:49 PM
What would a marxist group believe in? So, I'm asking--to you, what is a marxist and what ideals do they follow?
That government should be used to transition society from capitalism to socialism to communism, sometimes between socialism and capitalism, social democracy.
Quote from: Jannabear on November 12, 2016, 05:57:44 PM
That government should be used to transition society from capitalism to socialism to communism, sometimes between socialism and capitalism, social democracy.
That is a theory of history. It presupposes a lot, basically Progressive-ism of one sort or another. 2000 years ago, Rome was the pinnacle of society (if you ignore most of the rest of the world). Aristotle said that the end pulls the past into the future (instead of the past pushing us forward ,,, but not clear if it is progress or regress). Before that Herodotus, the father of History (and Greek propaganda) based his massive history on the idea that the Greeks were the acme of civilization, that everyone else was a barbarian, who are curiosities like animals in a Greek zoo (examples of how not to be Greek). For Herodotus, history is driven by E-W conflict. For the Romans, history is driven by Roman manifest destiny and Roman virtue (the Greek destiny isn't as good, even if they do pottery and theater better, and the Greeks are corrupt, not virtuous).
So Marx had a theory like this, based on the Enlightenment and the industrial revolution, of which we are seeing the last flowering of it ... until the oil/gas aka cheap energy, runs out. Marx didn't understand energy production or global warming. But he did believe in a manifest destiny, that like the Roman is gotten to thru violent conflict ... but that since human development isn't random, and can't go on forever (once you reach perfection) there will be a final violent conflict, that ushers in a utopia. And politically, Marx was trying to midwife (see Socrates) this Earth Final Conflict (name of a scifi series) ... which is using aliens instead of teleology metaphysics. Even in modern times, Francis Fukuyama came up with The End Of History ... which is the Das Capital of neoliberalism.
Quote from: Jannabear on November 12, 2016, 05:57:44 PM
That government should be used to transition society from capitalism to socialism to communism, sometimes between socialism and capitalism, social democracy.
Communism won't work as long there are humans involved. I told this to the editor of the Marxist Review when I was at Purdue. He spluttered a bit.
Quote from: Jannabear on November 12, 2016, 05:57:44 PM
That government should be used to transition society from capitalism to socialism to communism, sometimes between socialism and capitalism, social democracy.
I would suggest that pure Marxism has never existed and never will. But then neither has pure democracy, pure capitalism, or pure anything. The systems that work best are those that draw from the best of all the 'ism's'.
I am no Marxist.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 12, 2016, 08:31:39 PM
I would suggest that pure Marxism has never existed and never will. But then neither has pure democracy, pure capitalism, or pure anything. The systems that work best are those that draw from the best of all the 'ism's'.
Only Puritans believe in purity anyway. So that seems like a straw man you put up, and then knocked down. Pragmatism we both agree on ... fanaticism is the opposite of pragmatism. The Lenin/Stalin/Mao regimes were fanatic .. just like the French Revolution they were emulating.