My step-father has terminal small cell lung cancer and has chosen assisted suicide. Here in his home state, Oregon, it's legal but there is a bit of a waiting period. He told the doctor today that he wants to do it, which is the first step. From what the hospice folks say, it should take about 2-3 weeks, maybe a little bit longer for it to be approved.
I am opposed to suicide for both moral and religious reasons, I'm Catholic, but I feel I need to respect his autonomy. My brother has the same view, even though he's an atheist and a 2nd year ER resident. I think my biggest problem with it is that I think he's choosing this route for the wrong reasons. He's a bit vague about it, but he doesn't like that he has to go broke before Medicaid will kick in for full-time nursing care (another issue altogether), and he doesn't think it's right that I take care of him at his home, even though I told him I want to do so. He's to the point where he can't get from his bed to the bathroom without my help, even with a walker. It tears him up that I'm cleaning him up after accidents. He's in a lot of pain which is controlled by meds, but also make him nauseous and fuzzy headed, which he dislikes almost as much as the pain.
I've made my arguments and continue to gently try to get him to reconsider, but I don't think he will. There is no sense in alienating him when he needs someone by his side the most. In any event, it's his choice and I'll stay by his side until he dies, regardless of his decision. I'm hoping he'll choose to get well medicated and wait until the end. The Doctor says he's only got a month or two. He's 74 years old and led a pretty good life.
Well...he needs a bag of weed, alcohol, and tities!!
Go out with a bang!
Quote from: Draconic Aiur on September 09, 2016, 02:05:19 AM
Well...he needs a bag of weed, alcohol, and tities!!
Go out with a bang!
No argument here. I've suggested the weed, and before he went back into the hospital yesterday, I put some Irish Cream in his coffee every day and wheeled him out on the porch for a fat stogie.
If he's ready to go, it's probably time to let him go. I don't know if you're the "suffering is a virtue" type of Catholic, but I can say as a humanist that it is not. I'm normally against suicide, but in a situation where a disease is going to kill you anyway, I think you have the right to end your life while you still have some dignity left.
I have talked about it with my father as well. He is 87 and getting to the point where he is healthy enough but the mind is going and he does not like that. We both talked about the easiest, monoxide or the fastest 240 volts. Don't have a gun and might miss, and/or doesn't want that kind of a mess for someone to stumble into. Pills are iffy. Don't know what he has decided, but..someday I will tell you.
I never did see the point in hanging on for every possible second regardless the cost. If I'm to the point where I'm in constant pain which will only get worse as time goes on and can no longer take care of myself why the hell would I want the last few sucky months?
Look at it this way. You're at a theme park and you go on a roller coaster, which is great. But after the roller coaster there is a long, winding line which everyone expects you to walk through where freaky clowns will slap you and little dogs will bite your ankles. The line doesn't last as long as the ride did, but it seems like forever. What's more, all along the line clowns will be taking bills out of your pockets. The longer you stay in the line the more it's going to cost you until you're broke. Once that happens nobody takes any more money from you, but the line gets even shittier because you can no longer pay for the less-shitty experience. It's easy to just step out of the line and head straight for the exit. But everyone expects you to stay in the line to the end. Why? It's stupid. I don't care if the lady behind me is going to give me the stink eye for not doing what's expected of me. Clowns creep me out and little dogs piss me off. And I don't enjoy pain. The very notion that people expect me to stay in that line is stupid. I don't care if it's part of the intended ride. I'll ride the part I like and skip the shit at the end.
That is, essentially, my thoughts on end of life. You're going to die. It's going to happen. You can die now in a lot of pain and unable to do anything by yourself or you can live an extra two months for the low, low cost of everything you own so you have nothing to leave to your loved ones, a SHITLOAD more pain as it gets worse over time and your ability to do anything even with help so that you are left having someone else do everything for you. What is the purpose? What is the point? Why would I choose an extra couple months of suffering and indignation just to reach the SAME END I could get to right now? To me that just doesn't make any sense. If I get NEAR that point I'm going out before the "assisted" part is necessary. I may not leave my kids much, but I'm leaving them SOMETHING other than memories of wiping my ass for me.
I was under the impression that the Catholic Church teaches that suicide is an automatic sentence to Hell, but I just looked into it and it seems that I was mistaken. If there were a God, I really don't think he would punish someone in your father's position.
I'm glad to hear that you are respecting his autonomy, and I'm sorry you're having to go through this right now.
I had two friends dying from the Orange Crush. When they needed my help I had no problem giving it to them.
offer counseling or therapy. everyone can use end of life help in terms of our minds
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Quote from: randomvim on September 12, 2016, 10:36:43 AM
offer counseling or therapy. everyone can use end of life help in terms of our minds
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
Dad's beliefs are of a pantheist blend but he doesn't really want to discuss them with anyone. There's a "spiritual counselor" from the hospice group who's visited him a couple of times, but dad doesn't take him very seriously. I believe that he will be visited by a psychologist before he's approved by the state for the suicide. He's actually in pretty good spirits right now, the Doc has his meds dialed in pretty good and he's fairly comfortable.
I'm hoping he'll forego the suicide and enjoy the company he's getting every day. He's getting good care in the hospital, but the Medicare "comfort care" coverage is only for 3 weeks. He may last longer than that. After that we'll need to transfer him to a nursing home after that because he needs around the clock nursing care at this point. He doesn't want to do that and I think that's a big part of his decision for the suicide. If there is a good reason for assisted suicide, that's not it. He's also concerned that he won't be able to pass any of his assets on to his kids. We've argued this point ad nauseam. I don't want anything and neither does my brother, but that doesn't cut it for him. Frustrating.
Quote from: Jack89 on September 12, 2016, 10:57:24 AM
Dad's beliefs are of a pantheist blend but he doesn't really want to discuss them with anyone. There's a "spiritual counselor" from the hospice group who's visited him a couple of times, but dad doesn't take him very seriously. I believe that he will be visited by a psychologist before he's approved by the state for the suicide. He's actually in pretty good spirits right now, the Doc has his meds dialed in pretty good and he's fairly comfortable.
I'm hoping he'll forego the suicide and enjoy the company he's getting every day. He's getting good care in the hospital, but the Medicare "comfort care" coverage is only for 3 weeks. He may last longer than that. After that we'll need to transfer him to a nursing home after that because he needs around the clock nursing care at this point. He doesn't want to do that and I think that's a big part of his decision for the suicide. If there is a good reason for assisted suicide, that's not it. He's also concerned that he won't be able to pass any of his assets on to his kids. We've argued this point ad nauseam. I don't want anything and neither does my brother, but that doesn't cut it for him. Frustrating.
Others that are going through same thing might help. I am not sure of people who were in your position and had a councle present for their loved ones.
the situation is challenging.
unfortunately the law and medical is written the way it is on purpose.
That's a hard thing to have to deal with, and I'm sorry you are faced with such a difficult situation.
I support assisted suicide as a means of final treatment, because I think that quality of life is more important than length of life. It's sad that his reasons might be based on Medicaid and financial type stuff though. I get where you are coming from with not wanting him to do it for the wrong reasons.
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My mother just turned 90. I face the same issues as her primary care giver. People past 80 don't think too straight ... and they do decide things for the wrong reason. This is a constant painful worry and struggle. My best wishes to the care giver and the one being cared for. There is another wrong reason to be concerned ... if you are the primary care giver when crisis happens, you are responsible, not some institution that is experienced with that. You might not be prepared for that ... and possible legal complications with assisting any elderly or sickly in the legally wrong way. Not just acts of commission, but appearance of neglect.
One of my cousins got his son a Corvette as a reward for successfully passing his first driver's license exam.
Now that's assisted suicide.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on September 13, 2016, 07:28:22 AM
One of my cousins got his son a Corvette as a reward for successfully passing his first driver's license exam.
Now that's assisted suicide.
Unfortunately not funny. I know of an 18 year old man, who got a new pickup when his dad got out of the military. He rushed down the highway in it, right after he got the keys for the first time, and lost control on a soft shoulder, not more than a few miles from home. I know about it, because three friends of mine, a mother and two kids, were coming the other way, and T-boned into him just as he went 90 degrees to the traffic. The 18 year old died ... the other three were put in the hospital, but got out OK with just broken bones and a totaled car. She was taking the two kids to school, where my daughter also went. Both were friends of my daughter back then.
Sounded funny to me.
Ok, my step-dad was approved for the assisted suicide drugs and the powder is now at the Long-term care facility he's staying at. I've told him that I will be there for him until he dies, but that I would not be a part of his assisted suicide. He says he's ok with that.
I visit dad 3 times a day, around meal times, and stay for an hour or two each time. As I was leaving this morning, I bumped into a friend of dad's who was on her way to visit him and she had tears in her eyes. I ask her if everything was OK and she told me that dad asked her yesterday to help him mix the drugs to end his life, and she had agreed. She said she was up all night thinking about it and came to the conclusion that she just couldn't do it. She said that she voted for the "Death with Dignity" bill and wholeheartedly agreed with it, until last night. When faced with the immediacy of it, she had to look it square in the face and realized that not only is she now unwilling to help dad with his suicide, she is opposed to the idea of it.
She asked me to come into dad's room with her and be there when she told him she couldn't help him. She told him, and tried passionately to convince him that he shouldn't go through with it. Dad was understanding but I think ultimately unconvinced. He said he would hold off for a while longer but was keeping that card on the table.
When one of my brothers was told his brain tumor was back and little could be done, the other made a pact with him. Now the second teaches criminal forensic sciences and travels the world teaching police departments what to look for, so we were pretty much convinced he could do it without any "discovery". Unfortunately, the first's wife, heard him mumbling in an early delusion guarded him from my other brother. He died very slowly, but not so much in pain, well…we think not, who knows what goes on inside the mind when muscles go.
No need for you to read this Jack
[spoiler]But I can only think it was bad as the cancer grew out his eyes and ears months before he died. Very..very disturbing for the 4 daughters to look upon that face instead of remembering the one prior.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Jack89 on November 01, 2016, 03:00:08 PM
Ok, my step-dad was approved for the assisted suicide drugs and the powder is now at the Long-term care facility he's staying at. I've told him that I will be there for him until he dies, but that I would not be a part of his assisted suicide. He says he's ok with that.
I visit dad 3 times a day, around meal times, and stay for an hour or two each time. As I was leaving this morning, I bumped into a friend of dad's who was on her way to visit him and she had tears in her eyes. I ask her if everything was OK and she told me that dad asked her yesterday to help him mix the drugs to end his life, and she had agreed. She said she was up all night thinking about it and came to the conclusion that she just couldn't do it. She said that she voted for the "Death with Dignity" bill and wholeheartedly agreed with it, until last night. When faced with the immediacy of it, she had to look it square in the face and realized that not only is she now unwilling to help dad with his suicide, she is opposed to the idea of it.
She asked me to come into dad's room with her and be there when she told him she couldn't help him. She told him, and tried passionately to convince him that he shouldn't go through with it. Dad was understanding but I think ultimately unconvinced. He said he would hold off for a while longer but was keeping that card on the table.
I feel the opposite--totally and completely. My dad committed suicide because he was in the final stages of emphysema and nothing gave him relief. He was still at home, but was attached to an oxygen bottle on a long line. He ended up taping a long hose to the tailpipe of his car in the garage; taped the window shut and turned the car on. That's how mom found him. My only regret is that I could not have helped him end this life with more dignity and comfort. I find the govt. to be both unethical or moral in it's stance against assisted suicide. My mother almost committed suicide and would have in different situations. He had stage 4 ovarian cancer. That was a death sentence; only when was the question. As it happened she was lucky in that the end happen quickly and she passed quickly. You may feel it is immoral to commit suicide; then don't do it. But if I want to what business is it to you???? I detest those who expect me to live up to what they think is moral. It is none of their fucking business. I really feel for your dad---and the support he is getting from his 'family'.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 01, 2016, 09:10:16 PM
I feel the opposite--totally and completely. My dad committed suicide because he was in the final stages of emphysema and nothing gave him relief. He was still at home, but was attached to an oxygen bottle on a long line. He ended up taping a long hose to the tailpipe of his car in the garage; taped the window shut and turned the car on. That's how mom found him. My only regret is that I could not have helped him end this life with more dignity and comfort. I find the govt. to be both unethical or moral in it's stance against assisted suicide. My mother almost committed suicide and would have in different situations. He had stage 4 ovarian cancer. That was a death sentence; only when was the question. As it happened she was lucky in that the end happen quickly and she passed quickly. You may feel it is immoral to commit suicide; then don't do it. But if I want to what business is it to you???? I detest those who expect me to live up to what they think is moral. It is none of their fucking business. I really feel for your dad---and the support he is getting from his 'family'.
Sorry to hear about your parents' suffering.
Quote from: aitm on November 01, 2016, 06:40:10 PM
When one of my brothers was told his brain tumor was back and little could be done, the other made a pact with him. Now the second teaches criminal forensic sciences and travels the world teaching police departments what to look for, so we were pretty much convinced he could do it without any "discovery". Unfortunately, the first's wife, heard him mumbling in an early delusion guarded him from my other brother. He died very slowly, but not so much in pain, well…we think not, who knows what goes on inside the mind when muscles go.
No need for you to read this Jack
[spoiler]But I can only think it was bad as the cancer grew out his eyes and ears months before he died. Very..very disturbing for the 4 daughters to look upon that face instead of remembering the one prior.[/spoiler]
Sorry to hear about your brother and the pain it caused your family. While I don't agree with assisted suicide and will continue to try to convince my dad to die a natural death, I think legally preventing someone from choosing it may be the wrong approach. I often think my dad, a stubborn old bastard, just wants the option on the table. A semblance of control over his demise. I'm a fan of J.S. Mill's harm principle and feel that while some choices may be wrong, they still need to be choices. It's not freedom if there's no choice, and it's not morality if you're forced to comply. That's only if it doesn't directly harm others, of course.
Quote from: Jack89 on November 02, 2016, 12:30:07 AM
Sorry to hear about your brother and the pain it caused your family. While I don't agree with assisted suicide and will continue to try to convince my dad to die a natural death, I think legally preventing someone from choosing it may be the wrong approach. I often think my dad, a stubborn old bastard, just wants the option on the table. A semblance of control over his demise. I'm a fan of J.S. Mill's harm principle and feel that while some choices may be wrong, they still need to be choices. It's not freedom if there's no choice, and it's not morality if you're forced to comply. That's only if it doesn't directly harm others, of course.
Good answer. I only wish our lawmakers felt the same way.
I accept the idea of assisted suicide and will hope that it is legal when my time comes.
What bothers me about the arguments against it is that we seem to choose not to give OURSELVES the freedom from pain, suffering, and confusion that would be considered an abuse of our pets.
Not everyone has had an old pet. I have had several cats who grew old. At one point, I made them actually die naturally. It was not a kindness to them. I stopped that.
In early 2008, my best cat ever, Skeeter, my "heart" cat, began to suffer kidney failure. The vet said he wouldn't suffer until he was leaning against walls just to stand up. That day came, and I brought him to the vet. He wasn't really in this world anymore.
The vet game him a sedative shot, then a final one. I looked him in the eyes as he died. I suspect the sedative alone killed him.
I waited a month too long. He was miserable the last month. But we try to keep life going, fearing our own deaths.
Had I had it to do over, I would have demanded he be released from his difficult life the month earlier. *I* knew it was time, the vet refused.
I would not accept that for him again, I will not accept that for the loved cats currently with me, and I would not accept that for ME!
My mother died basically shaking and choking to death from various old age problems and begged for euthanasia. My dad died the same way in weeks of struggling to breath and fighting with doctors about breathing tubes he kept pulling out his throat in his last days.
I only learned about that afterwards. That is no way to die. And I don't plan to permit that myself. I will never again subject a loved pet to that, nor to myself.
I expect to arrange things so that one evening, I go to sleep and never wake up. I will not even know it happened.
While people who are miserable have my sympathy ... if you are currently ambulatory, the idea that you can choose when to go ... is arrogant. False sense of control over reality, a dictatorship of one.
First, life IS a "dictatorship of one". Unless you think we are property of someone or some organization, we are in control of ourselves. That is the very basis of our ability to think and act for ourselves.
I declare that The State does not own us. We collectively, own IT! That is the basis of democracy.
I declare that my fellow citizens do not own me. That is the refusal of slavery. I will not abide by even the suggestion.
I declare that my parents do not own me. When I became an adult I went my way in life. No adult is owned by another adult even if they created you biologically and raised you.
I declare that my created family, through marriage, partnership or cohabitation (if I had one such) do not own me. I remain an individual in control of my life barring accident or mayhem.
I will take a line from 'Invictus' by William Ernest Henley. I don't agree with all of it (not thanking "whatever gods may be'). But I do agree:
"I am the Master of my Fate,
I am the Captain of my Soul."
It isn't perfect, but it comes near enough in this religion-soaked language...
As I said, barring accidents and mayhem, *I* will decide when I leave this life and no one has the right to deny me that.
Quote from: Baruch on November 03, 2016, 04:43:27 AM
While people who are miserable have my sympathy ... if you are currently ambulatory, the idea that you an choose when to go ... is arrogant. False sense of control over reality, a dictatorship of one.
In that, Baruch, I think you are totally and completely wrong. YOU are the arrogant one for suggesting what you did.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 03, 2016, 09:19:57 AM
In that, Baruch, I think you are totally and completely wrong. YOU are the arrogant one for suggesting what you did.
My thoughts exactly. Just that I won't refer to "what's his name", LOL!...
Well, you can both move to Oregon ... but do get counseling before you arrogantly off yourselves ... second opinions are wise.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 03, 2016, 05:33:48 AM
First, life IS a "dictatorship of one". Unless you think we are property of someone or some organization, we are in control of ourselves. That is the very basis of our ability to think and act for ourselves.
I declare that The State does not own us. We collectively, own IT! That is the basis of democracy.
I declare that my fellow citizens do not own me. That is the refusal of slavery. I will not abide by even the suggestion.
I declare that my parents do not own me. When I became an adult I went my way in life. No adult is owned by another adult even if they created you biologically and raised you.
I declare that my created family, through marriage, partnership or cohabitation (if I had one such) do not own me. I remain an individual in control of my life barring accident or mayhem.
I will take a line from 'Invictus' by William Ernest Henley. I don't agree with all of it (not thanking "whatever gods may be'). But I do agree:
"I am the Master of my Fate,
I am the Captain of my Soul."
It isn't perfect, but it comes near enough in this religion-soaked language...
As I said, barring accidents and mayhem, *I* will decide when I leave this life and no one has the right to deny me that.
Seems pretty mono-maniac to me. Have you ever had mono ;-)
Quote from: Baruch on November 03, 2016, 11:31:19 AM
Well, you can both move to Oregon ... but do get counseling before you arrogantly off yourselves ... second opinions are wise.
My mom died in Oregon. She had ovarian cancer surgery in Portland. And I was in the room when the Dr. gave his spiel about the assisted suicide that he is required to make. So, I've actually heard it, Baruch. She was cleared to be on the list--then the Dr. 'cautioned' her that since she was taking insulin to be very careful not to give herself a large overdose of it--that would be fatal. Mom then halted the assisted suicide action; it is a bit complicated. But she never was without a large supply of insulin.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 03, 2016, 12:01:49 PM
My mom died in Oregon. She had ovarian cancer surgery in Portland. And I was in the room when the Dr. gave his spiel about the assisted suicide that he is required to make. So, I've actually heard it, Baruch. She was cleared to be on the list--then the Dr. 'cautioned' her that since she was taking insulin to be very careful not to give herself a large overdose of it--that would be fatal. Mom then halted the assisted suicide action; it is a bit complicated. But she never was without a large supply of insulin.
She had the choice and that is all that matters... The actual decision is irrelevent.
Quote from: Cavebear on November 03, 2016, 02:52:07 PM
She had the choice and that is all that matters... The actual decision is irrelevent.
Yes, you are so right. It was easy to tell that the Dr. was not opposed to giving her the knowledge of how to use the tools she had at her daily access. She did not need to go through the hoops of the sane but complicated law that was there to help her end it all if that was a clear choice. The choice was hers and that gave her a peace of mind she would not have had. And it gave me a huge peace of mind, as well.
While I am sympathetic to the situations your family members have been in ... you are not sympathetic to the different lessons I take from having one suicide and one attempted suicide in my own family. I am not without experience myself.
We all want our way; the law, the doctors and society be damned ... when push comes to shove. But I don't think that is ethical ... otherwise things a lot worse than your family situations can be justified by the family, the hospital or the government.
Quote from: Mike Cl on November 03, 2016, 05:30:03 PM
Yes, you are so right. It was easy to tell that the Dr. was not opposed to giving her the knowledge of how to use the tools she had at her daily access. She did not need to go through the hoops of the sane but complicated law that was there to help her end it all if that was a clear choice. The choice was hers and that gave her a peace of mind she would not have had. And it gave me a huge peace of mind, as well.
The doctor rule is "do no harm". But that can also mean that ending life professionally is not a harm. The doctors purpose is to ease life. In some specific cases that can mean helping to free a person from meaningless pain.
^This! I've felt that way most of my life.
I understand the sentiment, but at what point do you say, "ok, it's alright to kill this person now". My dad has good days and bad at this point, and on the good days he says he wants to ride it out until he dies naturally. On the bad days he says he wants to die, "right now". He asked me to help him kill himself yesterday, and I refused. This morning his spirits were up and we talked about how good Irish Creme tastes in morning coffee and joked about how his house keeper could kick his ass.
When we get to the point where we think a person is disposable, for any reason, we make room to expand on that reason.
The Netherlands have allowed assisted suicide for about 30 years now and we see what happen when it becomes socially permissible to kill another person out of "mercy". I just read an article about a woman who, in her 20s with "incurable" PTSD from rape, was euthanized - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sex-abuse-victim-with-incurable-ptst-allowed-to-die-by-lethal-injection_uk_57344013e4b0f0f53e35bf43. There has been a dramatic increase in the number of people euthanized in the Netherlands over the years, and I suspect it has a lot to do with loosening of criteria, the worth of a person's life.
In Oregon, there were 16 people who committed assisted suicide under the new law when it was introduced in 1998, and gradually increased to 132 assisted suicide deaths in 2015. What are the reasons for these suicides? My dad has said he wants to end it now for various reasons, and chronic pain is not the one he talks about the most. He says he want me to get on with my life and not spend so much time on him, or that he doesn't want to spend the money on his care, he would rather it go to me and my brother.
It's not hard to see there's room for abuse, how immoral family members could cash in on this. I also wonder how places that have had this in place for a while, like the Netherlands, will start to think of the worth of human life. They've started killing young, physically healthy people because of mental illness. What will it be next, the mentally ill homeless? What about children with survivable birth defects, or Down Syndrome kids? How about poor people who can't afford medical care? My dad's suicide drugs were about $700.00. His stay in the long term care facility will cost him over $10,000 a month starting in December. He's actually commented on this and thinks he should die by the end of the month because of it.
Should a person be able to make the choice to take their own life? While I think the choice should be legally allowed, I don't it should be socially acceptable. I think this is one of those things in which we should rely on informal social controls rather than formal ones. But is that even possible nowadays?
I think it is OK for the Dutch to have medically assisted suicide ... but not Americans. The Dutch are sane, the Americans are not.
My brothers father in law was a wonderful man who adored his wife but when Alzheimer's stole his memory his wife would lock her bedroom door because he would wake up and not know where he was and think she was evil and grab a knife and chase her around while she screamed. Luckily, or not so, the police intervened one day……now SHE has to live with that memory as well. I am all for any assistance, let them go when they still have that choice, because once they don't have it any more…well……shit happens….and it always seems worse
True ... old age sucks, and it is coming for both of us shortly. Remember if you chase women around the room ... don't use a knife, use your Johnson ;-)
Quote from: Jack89 on November 06, 2016, 03:13:16 PM
I understand the sentiment, but at what point do you say, "ok, it's alright to kill this person now". My dad has good days and bad at this point, and on the good days he says he wants to ride it out until he dies naturally. On the bad days he says he wants to die, "right now". He asked me to help him kill himself yesterday, and I refused. This morning his spirits were up and we talked about how good Irish Creme tastes in morning coffee and joked about how his house keeper could kick his ass.
When we get to the point where we think a person is disposable, for any reason, we make room to expand on that reason.
The Netherlands have allowed assisted suicide for about 30 years now and we see what happen when it becomes socially permissible to kill another person out of "mercy". I just read an article about a woman who, in her 20s with "incurable" PTSD from rape, was euthanized - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sex-abuse-victim-with-incurable-ptst-allowed-to-die-by-lethal-injection_uk_57344013e4b0f0f53e35bf43. There has been a dramatic increase in the number of people euthanized in the Netherlands over the years, and I suspect it has a lot to do with loosening of criteria, the worth of a person's life.
In Oregon, there were 16 people who committed assisted suicide under the new law when it was introduced in 1998, and gradually increased to 132 assisted suicide deaths in 2015. What are the reasons for these suicides? My dad has said he wants to end it now for various reasons, and chronic pain is not the one he talks about the most. He says he want me to get on with my life and not spend so much time on him, or that he doesn't want to spend the money on his care, he would rather it go to me and my brother.
It's not hard to see there's room for abuse, how immoral family members could cash in on this. I also wonder how places that have had this in place for a while, like the Netherlands, will start to think of the worth of human life. They've started killing young, physically healthy people because of mental illness. What will it be next, the mentally ill homeless? What about children with survivable birth defects, or Down Syndrome kids? How about poor people who can't afford medical care? My dad's suicide drugs were about $700.00. His stay in the long term care facility will cost him over $10,000 a month starting in December. He's actually commented on this and thinks he should die by the end of the month because of it.
Should a person be able to make the choice to take their own life? While I think the choice should be legally allowed, I don't it should be socially acceptable. I think this is one of those things in which we should rely on informal social controls rather than formal ones. But is that even possible nowadays?
Helping a person to die is not a "harm".
My dad is in pretty much the same boat, 87 and thinks he's going to die any time now. He's talked about suicide a few times and has the means with pain medication, both pills and fentynol patches, but he still has a wife to take care of and he would never leave her alone intentionally. He constantly tells us he doesn't want to be a burden and yet sometimes goes out of his way to be one. I never thought I would be his caregiver until a few years ago, but now I am.
Part of me wants him to stay alive for years to come and part of me hopes he'll die soon and painlessly in his sleep. It's very difficult to watch your family member shrivel up and slowly die and if my dad decided he wanted to die I would do whatever I can to make sure he could. Problem with pills are the risks of puking them right back up, but I know how to do it. For obvious reasons I can't and won't say how, but I have the means and knowledge.
Quote from: Baruch on November 06, 2016, 07:01:48 PM
I think it is OK for the Dutch to have medically assisted suicide ... but not Americans. The Dutch are sane, the Americans are not.
We as a nation just elected the Trumpster fire. It's painfully obvious we're not sane.
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on November 09, 2016, 02:15:26 PM
We as a nation just elected the Trumpster fire. It's painfully obvious we're not sane.
We will have to see where Trump takes us. I think the decision was insane, but that is what democracy IS. You get what you deserve, good or bad.
Dad decided to take his suicide drugs yesterday and died around noon. He was back and forth on taking them, but I think it was getting too hard for him to ride out the bad days. He also thought he was being a burden, and that weighed into his decision, even though we did everything to convince him otherwise. That part bothers me. Anyway, he went peacefully.
My sympathies Jack, I throw a wish your direction, that in its own little way, it may be of comfort knowing that your father died as he wanted to live...by his own hand. I am not so arrogant to suggest you be comforted by that, but rather you seek comfort knowing that it was not by the hand of another.
Quote from: Jack89 on November 11, 2016, 06:47:09 PM
Dad decided to take his suicide drugs yesterday and died around noon. He was back and forth on taking them, but I think it was getting too hard for him to ride out the bad days. He also thought he was being a burden, and that weighed into his decision, even though we did everything to convince him otherwise. That part bothers me. Anyway, he went peacefully.
My sympathies. But I don't think it is wrong to decide when you aren't getting value out of life anymore. I don't encourage suicide, but I will not shame anyone for it either. That doesn't mean you don't feel the loss. But it was his decision.