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“There’s something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion.” â€" Mother Teresa

The canonization of Mother Teresa prompted me to think about whether suffering is virtuous. Suffering is clearly valued in Christianity (see here https://bible.org/seriespage/20-doctrine-suffering ) but does suffering have merit in secular moral philosophies, philosophies which typical focus on avoiding or reducing harm and suffering? One distinction I was considering is that suffering is different than self-abnegation or asceticism. Inducing one’s one discomfort or denying one’s own pleasure for the purpose of achieving a goal is different from experiencing a painful situation under which one has no control or has no clear future benefit. Is there value or virtue in suffering?

Mother Teresa to a man in pain: “You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you.”
Infuriated man: “Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me!”

I think there is value in any negative, if you dig deep enough. But ideally suffering should only be a product of asceticism, and I don't think the knowledge you learn from suffering necessarily out-weighs the pain of enduring it.

That said, suffering is a part of life... so the best we can do is learn what we can from it. In that way I guess you could say I see it as a "virtue", but only because of the inavoidability of it. It's that, or let it be an inconvenience.

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2016, 07:58:16 PM
I think there is value in any negative ...

I would need some convincing on this part because I think there are some situations that just suck and there is nothing good about it.

I don't see suffering as a virtue at all.  The meme that suffering is a virtue was made up to make sufferers feel good about suffering.  This is handy propaganda that benefits the oppressors and other authoritarian institutions.  Suffering is just suffering, no matter how glorious a spin you put on it.  Suffering minor annoyances without whining too much might be a virtue, but that's a whole different dynamic.

This is a very deep theological question ... for me as well.  Theodicy.  But speaking secularly ... there are secular philosophy that is pro-pain, neutral, or anti-pain.  Sadism, Stoicism, and Hedonism.  So I can't say there is a single secular view on this.

The best I can suggest is the "make lemonade" solution.  Whatever you get handed, if it is sweet, enjoy it while it lasts.  If it is sour, turn it into as much good as you can, while it lasts.  But don't enjoy it ... overcome it.

I'm still processing this topic but one thought is that the suffering of someone creates the opportunity for others to empathize, do good actions and promote reciprocative prosocial behaviors. I'm rejecting the Christian ideas that suffering is a test of faith, has a purpose or makes one a better person, i.e. more like Christ. If someone can learn something from suffering, that is great, perhaps it makes people appreciate the times they are not suffering, but I can't see suffering as anything other than something to be avoided.

You know, I don't know. I find myself punishing myself for "stupid" shit. For instance, I remember once I absentmindedly simply dropped a hammer on my foot, it was very painful yet instead of screaming and writhing in pain, I forced myself to endure it and shut up as punishment for being so stupid, similar instances unfortunately abound in my history. Of course, much of that attitude comes from my fathers incredibly high tolerance of pain, really, it was quite legendary in our parts of the state…..then they termed it "carpal tunnel syndrome"….and the legend was gone…..and I started crying like a little girl……(nothing against little girls)

Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 06, 2016, 06:47:11 PM
I'm still processing this topic but one thought is that the suffering of someone creates the opportunity for others to empathize, do good actions and promote reciprocative prosocial behaviors. I'm rejecting the Christian ideas that suffering is a test of faith, has a purpose or makes one a better person, i.e. more like Christ. If someone can learn something from suffering, that is great, perhaps it makes people appreciate the times they are not suffering, but I can't see suffering as anything other than something to be avoided.

On the original Jesus faith ... it would be best for everyone to be crucified by the Romans, but only for the right reasons.  It is Jewish masochism at its best.  The martyr culture starts in semitic cultures ... including Jews and Arabs.  It is not OK to be martyred as a Zealot (ISIS) but OK to be martyred as an innocent passenger in a bombed Tel Aviv bus.

Suffering is only a virtue when someone else is doing it.

Well, there are good reasons to subject one's self to certain sorts of suffering.  I've been dieting since May, and it's driving me up a wall, but I'm sticking to it because I needed to lose (and still need to lose a bit more) weight.

Suffering for suffering's sake, and making a virtue of it, that's another matter entirely, and just another piece of the S&M puzzle that is the relationship between a church and its adherents.  If someone's suffering poverty because they're lazy, they've rather brought it upon themselves.  If someone's suffering poverty because of local social problems that make it impossible for citizens to improve their lot, that's not a virtue, that's a reason to change society, not celebrate it.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 05, 2016, 05:40:28 PM


Mother Teresa to a man in pain: “You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you.”
Infuriated man: “Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me!”

Christopher Hitchens dishes the shit on her in 'The Missionary Position'. It's a good read if you haven't already...  :-)

Only if the end goal is worth it.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 05, 2016, 05:40:28 PM
“There’s something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion.” â€" Mother Teresa

The canonization of Mother Teresa prompted me to think about whether suffering is virtuous. Suffering is clearly valued in Christianity (see here https://bible.org/seriespage/20-doctrine-suffering ) but does suffering have merit in secular moral philosophies, philosophies which typical focus on avoiding or reducing harm and suffering? One distinction I was considering is that suffering is different than self-abnegation or asceticism. Inducing one’s one discomfort or denying one’s own pleasure for the purpose of achieving a goal is different from experiencing a painful situation under which one has no control or has no clear future benefit. Is there value or virtue in suffering?

Mother Teresa to a man in pain: “You are suffering, that means Jesus is kissing you.”
Infuriated man: “Then tell your Jesus to stop kissing me!”

Calling something a virtue is inherently problematic, but regardless, I feel that the majority of people who say stuff like this don't suffer unjustly very frequently or for extended periods of time.

Quote from: Absurd Atheist on September 09, 2016, 11:06:01 AM
Calling something a virtue is inherently problematic, but regardless, I feel that the majority of people who say stuff like this don't suffer unjustly very frequently or for extended periods of time.

Exactly.  These are people who can generally end their self-imposed 'suffering' at will.  Which makes one question whether it's actually suffering at all.

It's a two edged sword. On the one hand you have people that for some reason (mostly religious) need to include suffering in their world view as a positive thing, in a way that vindicates that particular worldview. On the other hand there is the psychological need for those who have suffered or are still suffering to feel uplifted or even agrandised by the experience, for reasons of being comforted. These two things sometimes come together in a way satisfactory for both purposes. Reality remains of course that suffering is simply a byproduct of the natural and imperfect world we live in. And that is sucks.

Gerard

where's the virtue in suffering a heart attack? Where's the virtue in lupus, cancer or any of the other horrible illnesses that their good god made?

Even self inflicted suffering is not a virtue sorry but it's not at that point it's just a stupidity. There are many ways to learn lessons with out having to suffer. All though insight, and empathy created by suffering is a virtue perhaps. Is that a good reason for some one to suffer though? 

Quote from: doorknob on September 20, 2016, 08:50:32 PM
where's the virtue in suffering a heart attack?

It prevents you from accidentally saying Candlejack and letting him get

Quote from: Youssuf Ramadan on September 08, 2016, 06:26:31 AM
Christopher Hitchens dishes the shit on her in 'The Missionary Position'. It's a good read if you haven't already...  :-)

I liked the 'bullshit' episode of Penn and teller on Mother Theresa. Hitchens featured too.

This is a very important issue and apparently a very ancient one beyond organised religion. Last winter, while translating a study about early modern Europe, I had to read about the 'need for' suffering, pruitanism and it is relation to religion(s) and actually it is not as simple as it sounds.

There are also ideas that this is some sort of an attitude some people develop from childhood. Also about puritanism. Dr. Freud would have been thrilled I suppose, I am not.

So it could be that a couple of decades later, the common idea on this issue could be taken without the religious background.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 21, 2016, 12:12:26 PM
So it could be that a couple of decades later, the common idea on this issue could be taken without the religious background.

Like everything else, I think attitudes toward suffering are psychological concepts that have been incorporated into religions. One could argue that identity politics is a secular manifestation of this concept of suffering as a virtue, where the oppression translates into moral currency. Assigning meaning or virtue to suffering seems to be tangentially associated with empathy, but empathy alone doesn't explain it. It also seems associated with the human urge to make meaning from events: Why does suffering exist? Why is this horrible thing happening?

These are just ideas bouncing around in my head.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 21, 2016, 12:53:39 PM
Like everything else, I think attitudes toward suffering are psychological concepts that have been incorporated into religions. One could argue that identity politics is a secular manifestation of this concept of suffering as a virtue, where the oppression translates into moral currency. Assigning meaning or virtue to suffering seems to be tangentially associated with empathy, but empathy alone doesn't explain it. It also seems associated with the human urge to make meaning from events: Why does suffering exist? Why is this horrible thing happening?

These are just ideas bouncing around in my head.

Makes sense. It's very interesting though. I also wonder how many issues that could be explained by psyhcological concepts -also social psyhcology in a mass scale- are incorporated into religions.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 21, 2016, 12:59:25 PM
Makes sense. It's very interesting though. I also wonder how many issues that could be explained by psyhcological concepts -also social psyhcology in a mass scale- are incorporated into religions.

In the most simplistic terms I'm of the opinion that biological needs (e.g. I need food) create psychological constructs (e.g. fight or flight), which through interactions with other lead to social constructs (e.g. cooperation), which all are expressed through religion. Religions are the narratives that have evolved over countless generations to explain our subjective and objective experience of human existence. Religion is an amalgam of psychology, sociology, philosophy, art and history.

One can tell a lot about an individual based on what religion he or she believes and what parts of the religion they value. Mother Teresa is an interesting case study. My husband, who is Catholic, greatly admired Mother Teresa but admits, "I think she was kind of mentally ill."

Quote from: Mr.Obvious on September 21, 2016, 02:40:02 AM
I liked the 'bullshit' episode of Penn and teller on Mother Theresa. Hitchens featured too.

I've actually only just started watching that series -- I got a Hulu membership and it's on there.  So refreshing!

Quote from: trdsf on September 21, 2016, 01:48:40 PM
I've actually only just started watching that series -- I got a Hulu membership and it's on there.  So refreshing!

Thanks for saying it is on Hulu. I will check it out.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 21, 2016, 01:35:47 PM
In the most simplistic terms I'm of the opinion that biological needs (e.g. I need food) create psychological constructs (e.g. fight or flight), which through interactions with other lead to social constructs (e.g. cooperation), which all are expressed through religion. Religions are the narratives that have evolved over countless generations to explain our subjective and objective experience of human existence. Religion is an amalgam of psychology, sociology, philosophy, art and history.

Agreed. Nicely put.

QuoteOne can tell a lot about an individual based on what religion he or she believes and what parts of the religion they value. Mother Teresa is an interesting case study. My husband, who is Catholic, greatly admired Mother Teresa but admits, "I think she was kind of mentally ill."

There are also ideas about suffering and gender. That women are more likely to be affected by this, may be more open to it, prone to it -I don't know how to express- because of the imposed gender norm.

"If you hang long enough you become quite used to being hung."

Suffering sucks, it should never be forced on someone.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on September 21, 2016, 01:59:04 PM
Thanks for saying it is on Hulu. I will check it out.

Yeah, I got Netflix because it has House of Cards and because it's going to be the home of the new MST3K, and Hulu because it's the home of classic MST3K and Rifftrax -- Bullshit! turned out to be a bonus.  And I'd really prefer spending about $20 a month between Netflix and Hulu, than $50 a month for 600 cable channels, 595 of which I don't watch.

Well theists have to believe in sufferring in this world so that there is a hope of a better existence in the next world.  Otherwise, why try to do anything.Atheists generally think that making THIS world better is a smarter idea since it is the only one we have.

If it was up to the theists, we would all be living in caves up to our knees in mud and bones and praying that The Sky God didn't make the roof collapse on us...

Quote from: Cavebear on October 26, 2016, 09:44:57 AM
Well theists have to believe in sufferring in this world so that there is a hope of a better existence in the next world.  Otherwise, why try to do anything.Atheists generally think that making THIS world better is a smarter idea since it is the only one we have.

If it was up to the theists, we would all be living in caves up to our knees in mud and bones and praying that The Sky God didn't make the roof collapse on us...

We are living in high tech caves, up to our knees is excess stuff and praying that Trump of Hillary gets elected ;-)  Higher tech doesn't equal more advanced people, it just means the apes have gotten ahold of stuff they don't understand.

Well I think this is more of a failure of the English language because I think there is, secular, value in fasting, and doing some form of penance as well as meditation. For example, give twenty dollars to charity and then skip whatever outing or meal(s) that would have paid for while contemplating what more can be done besides giving money with the spare time. I also think that righting wrongs is important, and that is what penance ought to be. A petty example would be, say I go plant a few trees because I want to counter act my impact on pollution. Ultimately I can't have no carbon foot print but there is something in trying (and often failing) to help fix the problems I contribute to.
Meditation is just practical, pausing and reflecting, its calming and allows for perspective that can help with problem solving

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on October 27, 2016, 01:47:34 AM
Well I think this is more of a failure of the English language because I think there is, secular, value in fasting, and doing some form of penance as well as meditation. For example, give twenty dollars to charity and then skip whatever outing or meal(s) that would have paid for while contemplating what more can be done besides giving money with the spare time. I also think that righting wrongs is important, and that is what penance ought to be. A petty example would be, say I go plant a few trees because I want to counter act my impact on pollution. Ultimately I can't have no carbon foot print but there is something in trying (and often failing) to help fix the problems I contribute to.
Meditation is just practical, pausing and reflecting, its calming and allows for perspective that can help with problem solving

Muslims agree with you (Zakat).  The religion founders didn't expect people to stop being human, just moderate some of our more ape like tendencies.  But I think the OP wasn't about voluntary penance, but involuntary tragedy.

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on October 27, 2016, 01:47:34 AM
Well I think this is more of a failure of the English language because I think there is, secular, value in fasting, and doing some form of penance as well as meditation. For example, give twenty dollars to charity and then skip whatever outing or meal(s) that would have paid for while contemplating what more can be done besides giving money with the spare time. I also think that righting wrongs is important, and that is what penance ought to be. A petty example would be, say I go plant a few trees because I want to counter act my impact on pollution. Ultimately I can't have no carbon foot print but there is something in trying (and often failing) to help fix the problems I contribute to.
Meditation is just practical, pausing and reflecting, its calming and allows for perspective that can help with problem solving

These are acts of good intention, but I wouldn't describe them as suffering.

I agree

Unfortunately righting wrongs, and worse yet preventing wrongs ... requires the death of the human race.  Creating wrongs is what we do (except for the self-righteous who deserve the lower depths of Tartarus ... Hades is too good for them).

Youre right, even from a simple perspective, reducing the carbon foot print, I can only do that by not reproducing and dying. I will never undo what Ive done but that doesnt mean I am going to stop recycling and go buy a gas guzzler.
I think there is some worth in effort

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on October 27, 2016, 04:54:45 PM
Youre right, even from a simple perspective, reducing the carbon foot print, I can only do that by not reproducing and dying. I will never undo what Ive done but that doesnt mean I am going to stop recycling and go buy a gas guzzler.
I think there is some worth in effort

Sorry CP, I honestly don't dissagree with you.
But I'm just reminded of this, hearing you talk

https://youtu.be/vpOnqIuR5F4

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on October 27, 2016, 04:54:45 PM
Youre right, even from a simple perspective, reducing the carbon foot print, I can only do that by not reproducing and dying. I will never undo what Ive done but that doesnt mean I am going to stop recycling and go buy a gas guzzler.
I think there is some worth in effort

Close only counts in hand grenades and nukes.  Effort that doesn't produce, is a wasted life.

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on October 27, 2016, 01:47:34 AM
Well I think this is more of a failure of the English language because I think there is, secular, value in fasting, and doing some form of penance as well as meditation. For example, give twenty dollars to charity and then skip whatever outing or meal(s) that would have paid for while contemplating what more can be done besides giving money with the spare time. I also think that righting wrongs is important, and that is what penance ought to be. A petty example would be, say I go plant a few trees because I want to counter act my impact on pollution. Ultimately I can't have no carbon foot print but there is something in trying (and often failing) to help fix the problems I contribute to.
Meditation is just practical, pausing and reflecting, its calming and allows for perspective that can help with problem solving

What cause makes you feel "penitent"?  Existence? Life?  Knowledge?

I suppose that if Trumpster fire gets elected it's end times and we all get to go to heaven in a little row boat.
Look, there can be valuable lessons learned from suffering, but few people actually learn them . We've all heard the fables about the mothers who scrubbed floors so their kids could go to college and have a great life and in those scenarios the lesson is to let good old mom suffer so you get to live it up the rest of your life while good old mom dies with an arthritic back in a dingy flat while speaking broken English..

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on October 29, 2016, 02:52:33 AM
I suppose that if Trumpster fire gets elected it's end times and we all get to go to heaven in a little row boat.
Look, there can be valuable lessons learned from suffering, but few people actually learn them . We've all heard the fables about the mothers who scrubbed floors so their kids could go to college and have a great life and in those scenarios the lesson is to let good old mom suffer so you get to live it up the rest of your life while good old mom dies with an arthritic back in a dingy flat while speaking broken English..

I think sufferring is a bit over-rated.  We get one run through this world, and some are luckier than others. 

Yeah, my mom scrubbed floors.  In our house.  At around when I was 10, I did too.  We kids did a lot of work in the house.  It was a group effort as you got old enough to help.  And Dad taught us how to do basic fixes around the house.  We were expected to help and learn and it was a good lesson.  I know more about maintaining a house than most guys do Momwise and Dadwise. 

But it was never considering any sort of "moral sufferring".  It was just what was needed to keep the house working.  And good basic instruction for when we moved out on our own. 

Deliberate "moral sufferring" is just for those who think they are preparing themselves for some non-existent "after-life".

Learning to wash floors and replace light switches is just practical, not "moral".  And suffering deliberately is for fools.