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Wrong!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVy-eN-v7WE

But.... but... By saying you care about all lives, it means you don't care about black lives... in some way.... because black people... and slavery.... and don't pay attention to black on black crime and how that's the biggest cause of black people's deaths.... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you're racist for not blindly supporting my agenda!!!! *sarcasm*
:rolleyes:

(http://chainsawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141204-patreon.png)

QuoteImagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment â€" indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!
The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 14, 2016, 02:19:09 AM
(http://chainsawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141204-patreon.png)

That meme perfectly communicates why the black lives matter movement has so much momentum. They actually think that it means "ignore people that need help". It's a misrepresentation of what people saying all lives matter are saying. and that is putting it lightly.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 14, 2016, 02:31:11 AM
That meme perfectly communicates why the black lives matter movement has so much momentum. They actually think that it means "ignore people that need help". It's a misrepresentation of what people saying all lives matter are saying. and that is putting it lightly.

One coin, two faces.

Perhaps thats how you see the "ALM" response, but it's rarely what people ever seem to mean, at least when responding to BLM. There are not people marching with "ALM" attire and doing civil service. Before "BLM", no one ever chanted "ALM". No one ever stopped you in the middle of a sentence to say, "Woah, woah, woah... it's cool you care about this cause, but remember... ALL causes matter!".

That was never a thing, and when people say "All Lives Matter" it's the exact same two-faced statement as "Pro-Gun" or "Pro-Life"... you're not pro-gun, you're anti-regulation... you're not pro-life, you're anti-abortion... and your not pro-all-lives, your anti-"BLM".


Edit: Also, holy fuck having to type BLM and ALM is obnoxious... I wish they had more than one abbreviation.

No. Blue lives matter is the other side of the black lives matter coin. All lives matter is a recognition that that black lives matter/blue lives matter is a bunch of duality, non-inclusive bullshit.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 14, 2016, 02:45:19 AM
No. Blue lives matter is the other side of the black lives matter coin. All lives matter is a recognition that that black lives matter/blue lives matter is a bunch of duality, non-inclusive bullshit.

https://thinkprogress.org/obama-explains-the-problem-with-all-lives-matter-780912d54888#.8gft16kk9 (https://thinkprogress.org/obama-explains-the-problem-with-all-lives-matter-780912d54888#.8gft16kk9)

Quote“I think the reason that the organizers used the phrase “black lives matter” was not because they were suggesting nobody else’s lives matter,” he said. “What they were suggesting was, there is a specific problem that is happening in the African-American community that’s not happening in other communities. And that is a legitimate issue that we’ve got to address.”
But the meaning of the phrase has been perverted by media pundits and some members of law enforcement, who argue that it is inflammatory rhetoric. The phrases “all lives matter” and “blue lives matter” sprang up in direct response to activists who have mobilized against police brutality and attacks on black lives.
“It started being lifted up as ‘these folks are opposed to police, and they’re opposed to cops, and all lives matter.’ So the notion was somehow saying black lives matter was reverse racism, or suggesting other people’s lives didn’t matter or police officers’ lives didn’t matter,” he said.
Obama then pointed out that saying “black lives matter” is not about reducing the importance of other groups.
“I think everybody understands all lives matter. Everybody wants strong, effective law enforcement. Everybody wants their kids to be safe when they’re walking to school. Nobody wants to see police officers, who are doing their jobs fairly, hurt,” he continued.

Frankly, I am more open to agreeing with Obama (A - Because he agrees with me in a more logical way, B - because he is African American, the president and just man well regarded for his intelligence) than some random white person on the internet who badmouths basically any movement. That, and the ALM spokesmen (edit: I should say cheerleaders, since ALM is not an actual movement) tend to disagree with you...

But all that aside, again if you are using ALM as a truly inclusive phrase, more power to you... but your remarks about BLM (both of them) show that you really don't understand the situation at all and are chipping on a subject you think is stupid and don't care to learn about. You use ALM as a response to Black Lives Matter, and I have seen you time and time and time again attack it for issues it does not have, or because you simply do not understand what it is about.

Does black lives matter include the cops murdered by the people involved in their movement? Or the white people that get killed by black gang members after getting lost while driving and ending up in the wrong neighborhood? No? Ok, then I guess all lives matter, it is

Sent from your mom.

QuoteDoes black lives matter include the cops murdered by the people involved in their movement?

Yeah, I would say so, since the BLM movement as a whole sent it's support to the cops injured in some protests and the cops killed in Dallas instead of saying, "Haha, serves you right!".

QuoteOr the white people that get killed by black gang members after getting lost while driving and ending up in the wrong neighborhood?

Irrelevant to their movement. Does the local food bank provide for starving kids in Africa? No? Well no need to support them then! Did the civil right's movement include improving living conditions for low-income whites? No? Well no need to support it then! Did the Women's suffrage movement include... I think you get the point... I hope...

QuoteOk, then I guess all lives matter, it is.

So you're saying it's not a response to BLM, then say you support ALM because of perceived" flaws of BLM and your own ignorance of what movements are about.

We're not talking about Africa. We're talking about our own local neighborhoods in the here and now. Not black lives when they couldn't drink from the same water fountains.  Not women when they couldn't vote.
If black lives matter only focuses on one demographic, it automatically starts the ideology that black lives are more important than everyone else.

All lives matter is all-inclusive. and when you're all-inclusive, all demographics are treated more equally.

Remember. The blue lives matter is a direct response to the black lives matter movement calling for dead cops and actually acting on  it.

Sent from your mom.

I don't like identity politics, probably because empathy is valued more than reason and groups are more important than individuals. It is an inherently divisive ideology.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 14, 2016, 03:26:46 AM
I don't like identity politics, probably because empathy is valued more than reason and groups are more important than individuals. It is an inherently divisive ideology.

(http://www.infobro.com/RichPage/YuYuHakusho_files/botan10_02.jpg)
Bingo

Quote...probably because empathy is valued more than reason...

That... is a bad thing?


Empathy has done the world far more good than pure reason ever has.

TBH, I posted this for our resident SJW snowflake.

Trigger Warning! Trigger Warning!

Quote from: pr126 on August 14, 2016, 03:42:47 AM
TBH, I posted this for our resident SJW snowflake.

Trigger Warning! Trigger Warning!

Spoiler alert; Tl;dr (or watch, as the case may be)

Quote from: pr126 on August 14, 2016, 03:42:47 AM
TBH, I posted this for our resident SJW snowflake.

Trigger Warning! Trigger Warning!

Careful, buddy. You're gonna get our snowflake all heated and he's gonna melt! Lol

Sent from your mom.

Whatever the intentions of BLM, its main effect in the current political situation has been to strengthen Trump and the far right. Its essentially a white supremacist's wet dream- an incredibly powerful tool for recruiting disadvantaged whites, of whom there are a lot.

I don't like identity politics at all anyway, but regardless of what you think of the underlying issues, in terms of political impact BLM is a train wreck.

And yes, when empathy is more important than reason, it is a bad thing. A person can be both empathetic and reasonable, but some people let their empathy lead them blindly

Sent from your mom.

SJW snowflakes.
You can't argue with them. Just ridicule them.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 14, 2016, 03:38:40 AM
That... is a bad thing?


Empathy has done the world far more good than pure reason ever has.

Empathy and reason are not dichotomous, both are essential, but in my experience as a mental health counselor reason is more effective for solving problems. For example, when helping someone with symptoms of depression I can empathize with that person, provide unconditional positive regard and make them feel a little better but what is more effective is teaching that person CBT techniques, which are based on reason, reality testing and treating thoughts, emotions and behavior in an objective manner. Similarly I can empathize with people who experience racial inequality but reason is going to identify the barriers to inequality and formulate effective strategies. When combating racial inequality I find it less effective to focus on identity and racial differences than to recognize commonalities, such as we are scientifically all one race, members of the same society, committed to ideals of individual liberty, and that treating one another differently because of skin pigmentation irrational. A person's behavior is important, not their identity. The goal should be to have all Americans identify, through empathy, the common humanity in each individual and commit to treating everyone similarly with fairness and respect under rule of law, laws based on reason.

"All lives matter" is dumb as shit, but of course it shouldn't get anyone in trouble. "Black lives matter" is saying that all lives should matter, but right now they don't. All lives matter is spat out by people who seem to not understand what was meant by "black lives matter". Yes, plenty of the BLM people are anti-white racists, but the phrase black lives matter was never about saying that only blacks matter. Are people justified in having problems with the BLM movement? Sure they are. They only shoot themselves in the foot when they make people like Mike Brown the face of their movement and when many of them refuse to have white allies, but that's why it's so easy to divide and conquer the people. If blacks will literally support a guy like OJ Simpson, and burn down the city for a guy who assaulted police and put multiple people's lives at risk, then it wasn't going to be too hard to make BLM look bad, but that doesn't change the reality that they do have a point when they talk about what blacks have to deal with when it comes to the police.

If you watched that first story about the girl tweeting #Alllivesmatter, and your first reaction was not to be revolted by what was being done to her, then you are a far worse enemy to this nation than any outside terrorist could ever be.

Why? Because as a citizen you could actually band together and get things changed the way a terrorist never could. Terrible, horrifying things that stand in direct opposition to the concept of a free society. That girl is being subjected to trial by the thought police, and the fact that she cant end up in jail is no consolation at all. They're doing everything they can to her short of it. If they could get away with executing her I'm honestly am not entirely sure if they would pass on the option.

Just another example of someone losing everything for having the wrong opinion, in this country where the ability to express your opinion is supposedly cherished. SJW's are a virulent cancer.

The Black Lives Matter movement has inspired too much violence. While many proponents of it mean well, that doesn't mean we should ignore the fruits of their labor. What have they accomplished so far? Businesses robbed and burned to the ground, entire cities thrown into chaos as police try to get them back in order, innocent police officers shot.

"They do not represent us," they claim, but I call bullshit. From the very start, this is exactly what the movement was about. From Trayvon Martin's father inciting a mob to violence, to crowds of people chanting for the deaths of police officers.

I'm sure that what the more rational of supporters say is worth listening to, but I cannot support a group that very clearly is a leech on our society. If they really believe that all lives matter and just want to be treated fairly, they should start acting like it. Once they stop being so hypocritical, then maybe I can get behind them.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on August 14, 2016, 09:11:58 AM
"All lives matter" is dumb as shit, but of course it shouldn't get anyone in trouble. "Black lives matter" is saying that all lives should matter, but right now they don't. All lives matter is spat out by people who seem to not understand what was meant by "black lives matter". Yes, plenty of the BLM people are anti-white racists, but the phrase black lives matter was never about saying that only blacks matter. Are people justified in having problems with the BLM movement? Sure they are. They only shoot themselves in the foot when they make people like Mike Brown the face of their movement and when many of them refuse to have white allies, but that's why it's so easy to divide and conquer the people. If blacks will literally support a guy like OJ Simpson, and burn down the city for a guy who assaulted police and put multiple people's lives at risk, then it wasn't going to be too hard to make BLM look bad, but that doesn't change the reality that they do have a point when they talk about what blacks have to deal with when it comes to the police.

The fact that people have to continually reinforce that "black lives matter" does not mean black lives matter the most, or that only black lives matter, is proof enough that the slogan is poor communication of the goal.

Similarly with art, or a joke, if you have to keep explaining to people what you meant and the work it'self doesn't do it's job on it's own, you did a bad job writing the joke or painting the picture. The people that came up with "black lives matter" did a bad job in coming up with a slogan. Simple as that.

Here is a better alternative.
"black lives too"

It automatically suggests there are other people. Its also is less letters and can fit more places.

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160814/e42615e0026df7df5144ed5560d5a165.jpg)

Sent from your mom.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 14, 2016, 11:34:11 AM
The fact that people have to continually reinforce that "black lives matter" does not mean black lives matter the most, or that only black lives matter, is proof enough that the slogan is poor communication of the goal.

Similarly with art, or a joke, if you have to keep explaining to people what you meant and the work it'self doesn't do it's job on it's own, you did a bad job writing the joke or painting the picture. The people that came up with "black lives matter" did a bad job in coming up with a slogan. Simple as that.

I personally think "black lives matter" is very clear, and it's a fine name/ message that most people understand just fine. Where do I think the "All lives matter" phrase came from? I think it was a reaction to there being so much anti-white racism among people in the BLM movement. A lot of them were saying "fuck all white people", so that's where I think "all lives matter" came from.

You don't necessarily have to support BLM the group to support the sentiment that, yes, black lives should matter. No matter what fucked up stuff the people in the group do or say, blacks have a legitimate reason to be angry. Some are a bit extreme and want, right now, for the average black person to be just as unlikely to be shot and killed by police as the average white person, but at this moment in time, that's just not being reasonable or realistic. Blacks on average are more likely than whites on average to kill a police officer, so obviously blacks are going to be more likely to be shot by police. Still, some of them are shot in the back running away, and you have your Eric Garner type situations. No black person should have their record ruined over marijuana, which can prevent them from getting work. The government doesn't really give a shit about blacks and won't fix the schools. The police usually get away without suffering much in terms of consequences when they do fucked up shit, so yeah, blacks have plenty to justifiably be upset about.

These BLM guys would have been infinitely better served, and they would have shown admirable integrity, by first acknowledging it matters just as much when a black person takes a life of another black person, and not just when a cop or white person does it.

That is unless it meant their desire for a pound of flesh would have resulted in BLM arbitrary murdering black people, which I'm not sure I could put past them, given how incredibly stupid, hypocritical and destructive their behaviour has been to date.

QuoteThese BLM guys would have been infinitely better served by first acknowledging it matters just as much when a black person takes a life of another black person, and not just when a cop or white person does it.

...I just don't even anymore.

FYI, regarding the story in the video of the University of Houston student who was suspended and required to go to diversity training, she has taken a voluntary leave of absence from the student government organization even though all sanctions were dropped. When I watched the video I mistakenly understood that she was being suspended from school for posting "Forget #BlackLivesMatter, #AllLivesMatter" on Facebook. I researched the story because I thought it couldn't possibly be accurate and learned she was suspended from the student government organization and the sanctions had nothing to do with her status as a student.

http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2016/08/08/163378/with-sanctions-removed-uh-student-leader-takes-voluntary-leave-of-absence-from-office-for-forget-blacklivesmatter-post/

Quote from: Shiranu on August 14, 2016, 07:55:41 PM
...I just don't even anymore.

Because the lion's share of black people who are murdered are murdered by other black people.

If they had a different approach in which cases of black on black murder resonated in the same way as when a cop does it, that might be more constructive.

QuoteBecause the lion's share of black people who are murdered are murdered by other black people.

Okay?

QuoteIf they had a different approach in which cases of black on black murder resonated in the same way as when a cop does it, that might be more constructive.

"You cant address an issue unless you address EVERY issue!"

That's not how it works. BLM is approaching a specific issue; police brutality (and that includes towards white and hispanic victims, who they have stood up for) and the racism that remains in how society views African Americans. It's like saying the LGBT movement is wrong because it only focuses on LGBT issues of marriage and not domestic abuse within relationships... it's two completely independent causes.

I can't judge if it is time for person X to die, naturally or by violence.  But that doesn't mean I think that all people deserve my empathy.  Until I know you, I will give you generic empathy, and if I like you, I will increase my empathy to your life problems.  But if I don't like you ... then I will have less empathy.  In extreme cases it would be right for me to take your life.

So stop all this PC shit, be honest humans, not dishonest angels.  PC is a political thing, not an ethical thing.  That would be EC ;-)

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 14, 2016, 08:19:15 PM
FYI, regarding the story in the video of the University of Houston student who was suspended and required to go to diversity training, she has taken a voluntary leave of absence from the student government organization even though all sanctions were dropped. When I watched the video I mistakenly understood that she was being suspended from school for posting "Forget #BlackLivesMatter, #AllLivesMatter" on Facebook. I researched the story because I thought it couldn't possibly be accurate and learned she was suspended from the student government organization and the sanctions had nothing to do with her status as a student.

http://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/2016/08/08/163378/with-sanctions-removed-uh-student-leader-takes-voluntary-leave-of-absence-from-office-for-forget-blacklivesmatter-post/

It's still bullshit and a blantant act of censorship of opinions.

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 14, 2016, 10:38:59 PM
It's still bullshit and a blantant act of censorship of opinions.

Bullshit, yes but is it really censorship? I would call it coercion and groupthink.

Groupthink occurs when a group values harmony and coherance over accurate analysis and critical evaluation. It causes individual members of the group to unquestioningly follow the word of the leader and it strongly discourages any disagreement with the concensus.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 15, 2016, 12:13:21 AM
Bullshit, yes but is it really censorship? I would call it coercion and groupthink.

Groupthink occurs when a group values harmony and coherance over accurate analysis and critical evaluation. It causes individual members of the group to unquestioningly follow the word of the leader and it strongly discourages any disagreement with the concensus.

Censorship is the result of this particular instance of groupthink.

Groupthink.
This is what taught at uni campuses.
Creating SJWs, snowflakes, safe places, men in women's restrooms, etc.

Interested to know if any females feel the need to visit the men's rooms?

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 15, 2016, 12:13:21 AM
Bullshit, yes but is it really censorship? I would call it coercion and groupthink.

Groupthink occurs when a group values harmony and coherance over accurate analysis and critical evaluation. It causes individual members of the group to unquestioningly follow the word of the leader and it strongly discourages any disagreement with the concensus.

Groupthink is even worse. Holy shit. I thought colleges were supposed to encourage people to use critical thinking.

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 15, 2016, 02:13:50 AM
Groupthink is even worse. Holy shit. I thought colleges were supposed to encourage people to use critical thinking.

Not in the brave new world.

Cultural Marxist indoctrination, and look at the new useless "studies" sections, which are certainly not employable subjects, unless one is becoming a uni "teacher" to promote  the cause for future students.
Women Studies, gender studies, sexuality studies, liberal (?) art studies, etc.
Can get you a job in KFC perhaps?

Quote from: pr126 on August 15, 2016, 02:27:25 AM
Cultural Marxist indoctrination, and look at the new useless "studies" sections, which are certainly not employable subjects, unless one is becoming a uni "teacher" to promote  the cause for future students.
Women Studies, gender studies, sexuality studies, liberal (?) art studies, etc.

Honestly I took all those courses but apparently the atmosphere at some universities has changed. I attended the University of North Carolina at Asheville, which is the liberal arts campus of the UNC system. The philosophy was "we don't teach what to think but how to think." They also made no apologies for education for the sake of knowledge, not just to prepare for a job. The instructors had no compunction about challenging student sensibilities. I remember one instructor announced in class most of the stories in the Bible were bastardized from older religions. A student said he was a Christian and that wasn't true. The instructor said, "Excellent! Prove me wrong." We had intense debates both in and out of class. Back in 1990 for National Coming Out Day, before being gay was socially acceptable, I wore a shirt that said "Nobody knows I'm gay" in big letters. The next day some students plastered the campus with fliers "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve." Was it sometimes scary? Yep! Were feelings hurt? Yep! Yet, no one complained to administration. No speech codes were enacted. No jobs were threatened. No apologies were made. No one retreated to their safe space.

Quote from: pr126 on August 15, 2016, 02:27:25 AM
Not in the brave new world.

Cultural Marxist indoctrination, and look at the new useless "studies" sections, which are certainly not employable subjects, unless one is becoming a uni "teacher" to promote  the cause for future students.
Women Studies, gender studies, sexuality studies, liberal (?) art studies, etc.
Can get you a job in KFC perhaps?

Everything you love and want to protect about Western society; its collective, individual, social development you see superior to other cultures and fear that is under threat is a result of Cultural Marxism. It's one of the eventual results of an accumulation of knowledge and development of human culture started thousands of years ago. Nor it is limited to some sort of selective topics you think is the cause of all problems.

Cultural Marxism is not some conspiracy theory that started several decades ago. Modern West without Cultural Marxism is an anachronism; doesn't exist. A fantasy, home cooked by right wing ignorant morons who don't know their ass from their mouth and wouldn't be able to count any fundamental changes occured in their socities in the last 50 year out of social media vlogs.

And it is not going anywhere because Western civilisation screwed up with its policies and a certain group gets off on blaming everything goes wrong in their culture on some crude understanding of the biggest philosophy of criticism humanity managed to construct so far. Stomp your foot all you want.

If you had a tiny bit of historical perspective or scratch that just a little idea about the scope of what you are talking about when you type those words, you'd get there is no way around this cultural marxism 'thing'.


Cultural Marxism is the only criticism constructed against all authoritative systems from fascism, capitalism to communism, you moron. THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 14, 2016, 08:26:59 PM
"You cant address an issue unless you address EVERY issue!"

That's not how it works. BLM is approaching a specific issue; police brutality (and that includes towards white and hispanic victims, who they have stood up for) and the racism that remains in how society views African Americans. It's like saying the LGBT movement is wrong because it only focuses on LGBT issues of marriage and not domestic abuse within relationships... it's two completely independent causes.

BLM have not helped anyone, black people in particular, by (for example) responding to this injustice by first demanding, and then killing cops arbitrarily. A cop's job is extremely dangerous and under appreciated to begin with.

This is just one item on a very long list of stupid actions/demands by BLM that has created a lot of antipathy for whatever the fuck it is they think their goal is supposed to be.

Listening to black people themselves, from whom I have heard some of the harshest criticism levelled at BLM, has really helped me get a better understanding of what they are doing wrong.

Some Black Guy (you tuber) goes over the completely unrealistic demands of BLM and provides commentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xcB6fNZBeM

Or BLM is just another tool in the box to further destabilize society?

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 15, 2016, 06:09:13 AM
Everything you love and want to protect about Western society; its collective, individual, social development you see superior to other cultures and fear that is under threat is a result of Cultural Marxism. It's one of the eventual results of an accumulation of knowledge and development of human culture started thousands of years ago. Nor it is limited to some sort of selective topics you think is the cause of all problems.

Cultural Marxism is not some conspiracy theory that started several decades ago. Modern West without Cultural Marxism is an anachronism; doesn't exist. A fantasy, home cooked by right wing ignorant morons who don't know their ass from their mouth and wouldn't be able to count any fundamental changes occured in their socities in the last 50 year out of social media vlogs.

And it is not going anywhere because Western civilisation screwed up with its policies and a certain group gets off on blaming everything goes wrong in their culture on some crude understanding of the biggest philosophy of criticism humanity managed to construct so far. Stomp your foot all you want.

If you had a tiny bit of historical perspective or scratch that just a little idea about the scope of what you are talking about when you type those words, you'd get there is no way around this cultural marxism 'thing'.


Cultural Marxism is the only criticism constructed against all authoritative systems from fascism, capitalism to communism, you moron. THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE.

Try making your point whitout  personal attacks. I know it is difficult for you, but try.
People will respect your posts more if you do.
The aim is to exchange ideas, not insults. Behave!

QuoteTry making your point whitout  personal attacks. I know it is difficult for you, but try.
People will respect your posts more if you do.
The aim is to exchange ideas, not insults. Behave!

QuoteGroupthink.
This is what taught at uni campuses.
Creating SJWs, snowflakes, safe places, men in women's restrooms, etc.

QuoteTBH, I posted this for our resident SJW snowflake.

Trigger Warning! Trigger Warning!

QuoteCareful, buddy. You're gonna get our snowflake all heated and he's gonna melt! Lol

Sent from your mom.

QuoteSJW snowflakes.
You can't argue with them. Just ridicule them.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e1/96/e8/e196e8dbaeed72c362b691a43ddd2700.jpg)

Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2016, 09:37:19 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e1/96/e8/e196e8dbaeed72c362b691a43ddd2700.jpg)

Some ideas demand ridicule, particularly when they come from people who will never change their minds, but he is not wrong. drunkenshoe's insults frequently turn me off from his arguments to the point that I can't be bothered to respond. For everything, one must find balance.

Quote from: pr126 on August 15, 2016, 08:47:14 AM
Or BLM is just another tool in the box to further destabilize society?

A tool? Not an intentional one. It is dividing people more than they think. It's kind of like how this third-wave feminism trend is an attempt for handouts and to become a protected and immune class, but branded for african americans.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2016, 09:37:19 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e1/96/e8/e196e8dbaeed72c362b691a43ddd2700.jpg)

You're not very good at forming your own thoughts, are you? You tend to just spit out everything you eat up from the internet... and then you post memes, when you can't think of text to copy and paste.

Quote from: pr126 on August 15, 2016, 09:03:39 AM
Try making your point whitout  personal attacks. I know it is difficult for you, but try.
People will respect your posts more if you do.
The aim is to exchange ideas, not insults. Behave!

Ah if it is your aim to exchange ideas, FIRST you NEED TO LEARN THOSE IDEAS you are refering to before promoting political social media bullshit on them.

Yes, it is very difficult for me to tolerate bullshit sometimes. When I offer some opinion, I actually have a good idea what I am talking about.

Respect? Please, pr. Popularity has nothing to do with reality and your only chance here in this forum is to appeal to certain 'emotions' and mainstream bullshit so someone would actually post to your thread.

And please don't insult me by your personal concept of 'respect'.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 15, 2016, 12:45:12 PM
You're not very good at forming your own thoughts, are you? You tend to just spit out everything you eat up from the internet... and then you post memes, when you can't think of text to copy and paste.

Well, I haven't see you forming any thoughts either, Pickel. What you are doing -and a few others- is just squabbling with a specific poster thread by thread based on his general stance just because you don't like it. It's not like you have some reasonable explanation, but rather a simple reaction to something you don't like.

What is your argument exactly? Drop sarcasm and make a point. No, you haven't made any points in other threads, you have just come up with ready commercial lines we all have heard before. Draw me a picture, explain what you think and why on what issue and what has been happening about this issue as a whole, so I could understand this point of yours and others' that you like to act as if you got to the bottom of it. *Snort

You just look like a bunch of dumb, polite, right wing assholes spitting -from a distance- at a kid who doesn't agree with you.


So what's up, boys? What is it that you actually don't agree or agree here? What is the fucking argument?

I made my point many times. In this and other threads. The Black Lives Matter movement has constructed a toxic community and divides more than it thinks it unites. It only creates more hostility. It's a shitty movement and the slogan "black lives matter" is a shit slogan that is unclear to what it's intentions are.

I agree with some of it's points, but it's severely mislead in many of it's goals and their approach to their goals. My gripes with the BLM movement are very similar to the third wave feminism movement.

Sorry you can't understand that though.

I've stated the issues with this movement in this thread, as did a few other people. Please try and read before you knee-jerk. ;)

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 15, 2016, 02:44:06 PM
So what's up, boys? What is it that you actually don't agree or agree here? What is the fucking argument?

Are you asking me to clarify what I have written?

I find it interesting that just because we're not taking an extreme far-left stance on this, we seem like we're far right. I guess everything loser to being centrist would seem far right to an extreme left stance.

Another thing that is a good indicator that this BLM movement is shit, is it's absolute refusal to own up to it's flaws. Black on black crime? Ignore it. Battle cry for dead cops in parade form? Ignore it.


It's a toxic ideology that needs criticism.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 15, 2016, 02:49:12 PM
I made my point many times. In this and other threads. The Black Lives Matter movement has constructed a toxic community and divides more than it thinks it unites. It only creates more hostility. It's a shitty movement and the slogan "black lives matter" is a shit slogan that is unclear to what it's intentions are.

I agree with some of it's points, but it's severely mislead in many of it's goals and their approach to their goals. My gripes with the BLM movement are very similar to the third wave feminism movement.

Sorry you can't understand that though.

I can't understand? Get your head out of your ass. If you can't, remember that you don't need to respond everything that has your name on it. After all, if you are criticising the reactions of the protests of a minority group, at least check your reactions to the simple little remark in an internet forum while you are constantly pitching your annoyance to some real life people. You get pissed off by videos made for 15 year old girls, kiddo. Get real.

No, you haven't put anything on here. None of you have. All you do is whining about something perfectly 'normal' that has been going for thousands of years.

See, "This movement is toxic, it is hostile, but I agree with some of its points, but I don't like it" is not enough. Neither is it a response. All you are reacting is the FEAR. The uncomformism of it. There is an issue. A very serious domestic issue of races that has been going through for a loooooong time. None of you -or me- is living nor has lived the consequences of this issue(s). But what you have been doing though is sitting down in front of your computers and throwing about how fucking wrong a group of black people are reacting to this issue. That is it. Your personal emotions and your personal experiences.


Could you please tell me,

-How should they react?

-How should they protest?

-How should they talk, advertise, appeal...etc.

-How should they behave in or out of protest?

-What kind of a group they should build that wouldn't get affected from any kind of politcial bullshit?

-Is that possible? Has it ever been possible?


What is your argument? How should Black Lives Matter be/do/behave...etc...what is your dream about their protest as a white fucking citizen who gets annoyed by 'why feminism isn't about compliments or catcalls' videos or a series of posts one poster made around a general stance which you hate; in his case being a Social Justice Worker?

"I hate it, I don't want them to act this way" is NOT criticism. That's your point. You are not producing some sort of an explanation or an argument about the issue, Pickel. You are coming from your general, SJW hatred knee jerk reaction or whatever groups you kids get angry to these days, I can't keep track, sorry.

You don't thave a personal opinion or some point of view. All your interest about this issue because it is in the fucking social media. You have never been in a group like this; you have never been in a position, condition, situation to desire to join a group of the sort. Never. You have never had the issues they had that most of you believe don't even exist. All you do is getting scared and telling each other how wrong all this is because you don't like it and how that might threaten your safe space. SAFE SPACE. Your SAFE SPACE. That is the problem.

A reminder: You are saying the same thing for ALL the groups which are completely different from each other. And you are one group. Repeating the same thing over again. 

:arrow: Surprise for westen kiddos, there is no other way of any group to protest to be taken seriously. None. Frankly, if you are not angry, you are not going to be there. From French Revolution to any other countless domestic revolution you are not even aware your society/culture went through happened the same way. Violence. Actually genocide. There is NO change without violence. VIOLENCE. Do I like it? I hate it. However, my personal feelings have nothing to do with it.

But while you are supposedly criticising 'safe spaces', 'political correctness' and what not, you are completely living in the very politically correct safe spaces without recognising what the fucking is going on.

This is not something I agree, nor I defend it. All my point is that this is how this shit goes down; has alwyas has gone down and always will do. You are acting like a cat that has seen it ass hole for the fist time and thinks that it is fucking cancer.

There is NO other way. STOP WHINING about it. Offer something real, if you can. You are not going to write human culture over again. There WON'T be any peaceful groups that will take any rights or status they desire by playing guitars, giving away flowers or making funny, witty videos. Rights and status are not given, they are taken. And they will take it. What I feel about it, what you feel about it have no importance at all.

All these groups are threatening and violent to you though they are all completely different; they are alien, dangerous, because you are out of that world. Because you are living in another. Doesn't matter how hard you stomp your foot down, how many videos you post, how deep you whine you are a heterosexual white male. Get jakced up all you want and embrace your adopted victimhood. That's the fucking reality. Do you know any white male groups any other than the sub reactive of the feminist in general? No, you don't. Guess why. Or get angry about it.

Yes GSO is not a het. But he is white. And again doesn't matter what you believe, this is how this groups and movements develop. And if you do not have a million choices you can offer to a group like Black Lives Matter, just stop looking down on them. See, I want to see criticism. But that's not criticism.

We are not in some political climate to defend a passifist angle either. Just alone Trump is enough to get people radicalised to go out with guns and kill. Are you aware of that? Why not? Could that be because even if Trump was to be president you wouldn't get any shit on your way? Hmm. You wouldn't. But guess what? For a lot of people this aint the case. Not to mention what was life before even in the best case.

Could you please tell me, how stupid you need to be to expect people to act like hippies, NOW, when everything is so worked up deliberately? What do you think they would do?

You are living in fantasy. GET DOWN TO EARTH.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 15, 2016, 02:57:14 PM
Are you asking me to clarify what I have written?

No. I am saying 'This is how this shit goes down, bro. Stop whining about it, because under these circumstabces it is not criticism, but just blah blah blah.' Frankly, it is bullshit. 

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 15, 2016, 02:13:50 AM
Groupthink is even worse. Holy shit. I thought colleges were supposed to encourage people to use critical thinking.

You are misinformed.  College is paid for by government.  Government wants good citizens who follow the current propaganda.  That is why one political wing wants to burn the colleges down, if they can't control the policy.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 15, 2016, 12:40:31 PM
A tool? Not an intentional one. It is dividing people more than they think. It's kind of like how this third-wave feminism trend is an attempt for handouts and to become a protected and immune class, but branded for african americans.

But you say that Democrats are the only one's to save us from this ... they feed on it.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 15, 2016, 05:11:20 PM
No. I am saying 'This is how this shit goes down, bro. Stop whining about it, because under these circumstabces it is not criticism, but just blah blah blah.' Frankly, it is bullshit. 

QuoteYes GSO is not a het. But he is white. And again doesn't matter what you believe, this is how this groups and movements develop. And if you do not have a million choices you can offer to a group like Black Lives Matter, just stop looking down on them. See, I want to see criticism. But that's not criticism.

What I'm hearing you say is "You're white, you can't understand the lives of black people, this is the way social change happens, you are not offering a solution, shut up." So apparently I can't understand the lives of black people. Most of them probably can't understand me. You certainly don't. How can you possibly understand what it was like growing up gay in the South in the 70's and 80's, when gays were arrested for "crimes against nature" and had their names listed in the local paper just for asking a guy out? Black people's families are black and share their experience as a black person, where gay people's families are not typically gay and often do not support you-- they sometimes disown you or send you to a psychiatrist so you can be "fixed." How can you understand what it is like being diagnosed with AIDS back before their was effective treatment, seeing your twenty-something year old friends die, knowing you're next, or your partner who gave you the virus is next, obsessing over every cough, every little purple bump, knowing people believe you and your friends deserve this, knowing the government is ignoring the problem? Black people get looked with suspicion, where I've had healthcare workers not want to touch me, much less regular people. I've participated in ACT UP, fought pharmaceutical companies, marched, protested, written letters to congress. I've been down the road of social activism. You don't know me. People like you don't get to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

You are correct that BLM is following the life cycle of similar social movements. There is a place for marching, a place for outrage, a place for challenging the status quo. There is also thinking strategically, going beyond raising awareness, setting concrete goals, winning hearts and minds, pointing out commonality rather difference, demonstrating that we are all in this together. To do the later you have to be willing to release your grip on some of the labels, expand your group, change how you see yourself so other people can see you differently. Identity politics is one way to look at a situation but not the only way and I criticize people who are so committed to that ideology they cannot see alternatives. Identity politics can only take you so far and it has the real problem of doing exactly what I did in the first paragraph-- constantly dividing people into ever narrowing groups of identity, where the individuals who have suffered the most are deemed the most virtuous, and so cling to that suffering. I know this because I've lived it.

QuoteAnother thing that is a good indicator that this BLM movement is shit, is it's absolute refusal to own up to it's flaws. Black on black crime? Ignore it.

"Another good indicator that the ALS cure movement is shit, is it's absolute refusal to own up to it's flaws. Cancer and age killing people? Ignore it."

"Another good indicator that the LGBT movement is shit, is it's absolute refusal to own up to it's flaws. Infidelity amongst homosexuals? Ignore it."

"Another good indicator that Bernie Sander's movement is shit, is it's absolute refusal to own up to it's flaws. Bernie Sander's supporters causing chaos just to be dicks? Ignore it."

The reason BLM "ignores" black on black crime (pro-tip; most of the people who support BLM also support fixing issues that cause that; cultural changes, education changes, etc.)... they "ignore" it because it is not their objective to change that. Their objective is to change the way that American society views black lives as less important, and how the police view civilian lives (and that includes whites that the cause has stood up for who were victims of police brutality) and change that.

You just repeat the same thing, over and over and over and over again, and it doesn't make any more sense through repetition. It is you who does not grasp the concept of what the movement is about, and so you lambaste and lament that the cause is without any merit and just out to ruin your perfect little society.

QuoteBattle cry for dead cops in parade form? Ignore it.

Again, only if you close your ears and shut your eyes and only choose to hear and see what you want to. If you want to actually join us in reality...

http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-shooting-in-baton-rouge/black-lives-matter-leader-calls-for-peace/ (http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-shooting-in-baton-rouge/black-lives-matter-leader-calls-for-peace/)

http://blacklivesmatter.com/the-black-lives-matter-network-advocates-for-dignity-justice-and-respect/ (http://blacklivesmatter.com/the-black-lives-matter-network-advocates-for-dignity-justice-and-respect/)

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/08/see-how-black-lives-matter-protesters-respond-to-sign-reportedly-advocating-violence-against-police/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/08/see-how-black-lives-matter-protesters-respond-to-sign-reportedly-advocating-violence-against-police/)

http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/ (http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dallas-shooting-black-lives-matter-leaders-respond/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dallas-shooting-black-lives-matter-leaders-respond/)

Seriously, you are in your own little bubble, echo chamber, if people just repeating the same mantra... "Sjw are coming to destroy us! Sjw are coming to destroy us! SJW ARE COMING TO DESTROY US!" and have no actual recognition of reality around you. I mean... when you are using pr and Glenn Becks arguments to justify your position, you have reached the bottom of the barrel.

And that is what gets so fucking infuriating listening to you speak, is you stand ontop of your high horse and repeat the exact same bullshit from some stupid ass video by some hateful idiot who's only "argument" is, "You gotta fear SJWS! You gotta fear BLM! You gotta fear EVERYONE!" and then preach how rational, how non-emotional, you are. All the while you like and egg on people throwing nothing more than personal attacks while sitting back and keeping your hands clean when you can.

It's hardly a shining beacon of rationality.

We ARE white, and thus we DON'T have a clue of the situation; that is the simple reality. Yes, we can grasp it, we can conceptualize it, but we can no more "know" it then knowing what it is like to be a woman, or a transgender, or a dolphin. And frankly if someone was murdering whites or biracial people like myself at such an alarming rate, and if society as a whole was constantly telling me who I was suppose to be (and that is either a sports player or a drug dealer), etc. etc. ... you know what? I might just be pissed off too. I'm pissed off that they are going through it, so I can only imagine what it is like to live it.

Quote from: Baruch on August 15, 2016, 06:52:43 PM
But you say that Democrats are the only one's to save us from this ... they feed on it.

I've actually never said that. If anything, I've only said they're not as bad as Republicans.

Democrats feed on this stuff and Republicans fuel it.

Sent from your mom.

I was going to edit it in, but I'll just make it a second post...

I have been saying that for months now, that this forum is unfortunately becoming a mini Reddit or wherever "anti-SJW" like to congregate, an echo box, and if you don't share that opinion then you are emotional and ostracized.

Several valuable posters have been ran off because of that atmosphere, or at least hardly post anymore because, unless you agree with the majority, you are going to receive personal attacks for daring to have a different opinion.

It seems like that is the environment the majority desires since it has been brought up several tones and nothing has changed, and that sucks because this forum at least use to have some variety of thought.

Now it's just an echo chamber and quite frankly drunkem was right, a safe space. And when someone violates that safe place, all that projection you do reaches its fever pitch as you cry harder about it than any "sjw" I have ever seen.

Bring up a good point and most of us on here will take it as a good point. No one is blockiing you from stating your positions, it just so happens that a bunch of your positions, the BLM movement.... your odd love for the third wave feminism movement.... to the point where you seem like you hate that you were born white and you hate that you were born male.... it just so happens that those positions have a lot of flaws in them. They have good points, which I can speak for myself that I agree with some of the points in both of those movements.... a small handful, at least... a VERY small handful, but they are riddled with flaws, double standards, and unreasonable demands.

What I feel is the real issue here... with you, with people in general that take issue with these criticisms, is that they think an attack on a flaw, is an attack on every aspect of the position. When they identify with it so whole-heatedly, they take it as a personal attack. i.e.: you. Like how you took many of our criticisms of your position as an attack on your character.

If you are going out of your way to take criticism of something like BLM or Feminsim as a personal attack, maybe there are some other issues going on with you. It could be stress in general, it could be something completely different. My suggestion is take a breather and return to the subject with a level head, instead of emotionally kneejerking your responses. Shoe too. I know shoe is going through a lot of shit where she lives, so I try to cut her some slack. I try to cut you some slack too because I know you said recently you've been stressed and not feeling 100%.


Do me a favor, @Shiranu. Try to name a few things that are flaws in the Black Lives Matter  movement. What are some negative outcomes because this movement came about? What was the recoil? What are some negative values of the movement? Because I know you can't possibly think this movement is flawless.

And how's this. I'll start off and meet you half way. I'll name a few good points.

1-racism does unfortunately exist and black people are discriminated against, probably the most in this country, although if someone looks like a muslim, it's probably a tie or something... give or take.
2-there are a few bad cops. A position of power tends to attract the abusive type and there are a handful of cops that abuse their power, sometimes out of racism
3-black people do tend to be more harshly convicted/arrested for the same thing a white person would. While I may or may not agree on WHY that is, I do acknowledge that it does in fact happen.

Ok. Now you :)

Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2016, 09:04:19 PM
"Another good indicator that the ALS cure movement is shit, is it's absolute refusal to own up to it's flaws. Cancer and age killing people? Ignore it."

"Another good indicator that the LGBT movement is shit, is it's absolute refusal to own up to it's flaws. Infidelity amongst homosexuals? Ignore it."

"Another good indicator that Bernie Sander's movement is shit, is it's absolute refusal to own up to it's flaws. Bernie Sander's supporters causing chaos just to be dicks? Ignore it."

The reason BLM "ignores" black on black crime (pro-tip; most of the people who support BLM also support fixing issues that cause that; cultural changes, education changes, etc.)... they "ignore" it because it is not their objective to change that. Their objective is to change the way that American society views black lives as less important, and how the police view civilian lives (and that includes whites that the cause has stood up for who were victims of police brutality) and change that.

You just repeat the same thing, over and over and over and over again, and it doesn't make any more sense through repetition. It is you who does not grasp the concept of what the movement is about, and so you lambaste and lament that the cause is without any merit and just out to ruin your perfect little society.

Again, only if you close your ears and shut your eyes and only choose to hear and see what you want to. If you want to actually join us in reality...

http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-shooting-in-baton-rouge/black-lives-matter-leader-calls-for-peace/ (http://www.nytimes.com/live/police-shooting-in-baton-rouge/black-lives-matter-leader-calls-for-peace/)

http://blacklivesmatter.com/the-black-lives-matter-network-advocates-for-dignity-justice-and-respect/ (http://blacklivesmatter.com/the-black-lives-matter-network-advocates-for-dignity-justice-and-respect/)

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/08/see-how-black-lives-matter-protesters-respond-to-sign-reportedly-advocating-violence-against-police/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/08/see-how-black-lives-matter-protesters-respond-to-sign-reportedly-advocating-violence-against-police/)

http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/ (http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dallas-shooting-black-lives-matter-leaders-respond/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dallas-shooting-black-lives-matter-leaders-respond/)

Seriously, you are in your own little bubble, echo chamber, if people just repeating the same mantra... "Sjw are coming to destroy us! Sjw are coming to destroy us! SJW ARE COMING TO DESTROY US!" and have no actual recognition of reality around you. I mean... when you are using pr and Glenn Becks arguments to justify your position, you have reached the bottom of the barrel.

And that is what gets so fucking infuriating listening to you speak, is you stand ontop of your high horse and repeat the exact same bullshit from some stupid ass video by some hateful idiot who's only "argument" is, "You gotta fear SJWS! You gotta fear BLM! You gotta fear EVERYONE!" and then preach how rational, how non-emotional, you are. All the while you like and egg on people throwing nothing more than personal attacks while sitting back and keeping your hands clean when you can.

It's hardly a shining beacon of rationality.

We ARE white, and thus we DON'T have a clue of the situation; that is the simple reality. Yes, we can grasp it, we can conceptualize it, but we can no more "know" it then knowing what it is like to be a woman, or a transgender, or a dolphin. And frankly if someone was murdering whites or biracial people like myself at such an alarming rate, and if society as a whole was constantly telling me who I was suppose to be (and that is either a sports player or a drug dealer), etc. etc. ... you know what? I might just be pissed off too. I'm pissed off that they are going through it, so I can only imagine what it is like to live it.

I didn't even see this post until just now. Never mind. I'm not talking to a reasonable person. If you're actually are going to use cancer and age against the search for the cure to ALS... you're flat out being unreasonable and irrational.

The infidelity in the lgbt community?

Really? These are your responses to that statement? I mean... really?

Are you ok, Shiranu? Like seriously... are you having another manic/depression episode or something? I'm seriously concerned for you at this point. Your responses are beyond irrational at this point. Those are really far reaches.

(https://scontent.fhou1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14045885_830861583681416_1618832462927932052_n.jpg?oh=561fe628fe393d9dc7c3c8666f2b4d28&oe=584FAC73)

Btw. Did I mention that this is the part of the thread where Shiranu regurgitates every bit of even slightly related rhetoric in order to defend his biases?

Oh wait. I did, but that was the other thread. Close enough.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 15, 2016, 01:19:15 AM
This is the point of the thread where Shiranu regurgitates all of the semi-related sjw rhetoric he can in order to feel like he's successfully defending his biases.

Predictable.

I think I try so hard to have a conversation and discussion with Shiranu, is because I know he has good intentions and the potential for being a logical human being, but it sometimes doesn't work out and he lets his emotions take over...

Yes, blackleaf is my alter ego that comes out at night, fighting crime with kittens, dabs and planking.

Might want to calm your emotions down there, good boy.

Also, your response was truly riveting...

"Uh...uh... lol your stupid and insane!"

Yeah, great one. So, back on topic, why do you expect causes to address issues that are irrelevant to their movement, like cancer to to ALS or infidelity to the LGBT movement?

You realise the reason I am using ridiculous examples is to show how ridiculous your position is, right? It's not that I actually believe they should be held to that standard.

Likewise, great side step of admitting the BLM addressed the issue you raised, as they have with several "issues" you have mentioned.

You live in a precious little bubble, and it's one easily popped by reality. I know that's scary, but your lashing out like a child is not going to change a thing.

And not an inch of remorse for being one of the biggest instigators of turning this forum into a one- sided circle jerk...

Well, I didn't even get to chime in before this thread went to shit.

The name "Black Lives Matter" comes from the perception a lot of black people (right or wrong) have of being treated as though their lives don't matter. It's basically crying out, "Um, hey, could you at least acknowledge us as human beings?"

The actual BLM movement hasn't done itself many favors this past year or so, though.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on August 15, 2016, 11:47:59 PM
Well, I didn't even get to chime in before this thread went to shit.

The name "Black Lives Matter" comes from the perception a lot of black people (right or wrong) have of being treated as though their lives don't matter. It's basically crying out, "Um, hey, could you at least acknowledge us as human beings?"

The actual BLM movement hasn't done itself many favors this past year or so, though.

I agree that the movement hasn't done itself favours, but I would also argue having the entire mainstream media and society picking it apart for any and every flaw was not something that was overly helpful either. I think nearly any movement, good or bad, would be disliked if there were so many people looking to dislike it from the very beginning.

BLM, in the city I am in, has done charity work, peaceful protests, interacts perfectly fine with police, and so on. No one ever mentions that huge majority that is working just as it should be though, the only attention are on the few bad seeds who then ruin the image of the entire movement. Which has it's ironic hypocrisy cranked to 10, when you consider certain posters say you cant judge all cops because a few are "bad seeds", but apparently judging the entire BLM movement for it's bad seeds is perfectly acceptable.


If people would at least own up to their hypocrisy, I would at least respect them for that. Not even saying heyt have to change their hypocritical stance, just own it rather than acting high and mighty.


(end response to quote)

----

As for the thread, apparently any thread I disagree with the norm is just going to turn into a shit-fest. I am waiting to see if PE choses to acknowledge he was wrong, or continue to scream and pout, before I decide if I want to bother with serious responses from here on out or just accept you have no intention of ever admitting you are just a parrot and let you go about you merry way. I really want to believe you are not as much of an emotional idiot as you are acting, but there are only so many personal insults I can take before I have to accept the truth that you might just be an incurable douche who just wants to fit in with the interwebs at the expense of having no sense of reality...

So maybe instead of getting mad at us for pointing out the flaws of the BLM movement, maybe help them improve their movement to have less flaws?

Or you can just be a meme-slinging keyboard warrior.

Acknowledge I'm wrong about what? I've acknowledged there are good qualities about the black lives matter movement from the start and still do. You seem to have issue with my criticism of it's toxic nature, it's negative effect on society, especially for the black community, and the rest of the flaws I point out. Just because someone points out the flaws in something, doesn't mean they disagree with every aspect of it. I disagree with the bible as a whole, but "love thy neighbor" is a good virtue.

I also named a few of the good qualities and met you half way with my request for you to point out some of the flaws. It's a flawed thought process. Are you denying that the black lives matter movement has flaws?

It's really telling that you keep saying that I'm "screaming" and "emotional" about this, when you're the one with the irrational, off topic kneejerk responses. I'll ask it again, are you sure you're not projecting?

QuoteBattle cry for dead cops in parade form? Ignore it.

Quotehttp://www.nytimes.com/live/police-shooting-in-baton-rouge/black-lives-matter-leader-calls-for-peace/

http://blacklivesmatter.com/the-black-lives-matter-network-advocates-for-dignity-justice-and-respect/ (http://blacklivesmatter.com/the-black-lives-matter-network-advocates-for-dignity-justice-and-respect/)

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/08/see-how-black-lives-matter-protesters-respond-to-sign-reportedly-advocating-violence-against-police/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/07/08/see-how-black-lives-matter-protesters-respond-to-sign-reportedly-advocating-violence-against-police/)

http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/ (http://time.com/4400330/st-paul-protests-philando-castile-black-lives-matter/)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dallas-shooting-black-lives-matter-leaders-respond/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dallas-shooting-black-lives-matter-leaders-respond/)

QuoteYou seem to have issue with my criticism of it's toxic nature, it's negative effect on society, especially for the black community, and the rest of the flaws I point out.

Again, I only have an issue with this because you are holding BLM to a standard you criticize people for holding cops to... you want your cake and to eat it too (which to be fair, that phrase never made sense to me... why would you want a cake you cant eat?). You judge the entire BLM movement for it's bad seeds and, even worse, for how people perceive it (instead of what it actually does) while condemning people who believe the police are not a force for good and judge the forces as a whole for the actions of it's bad seeds (which unlike BLM, the higher up's protect).

Yes. I know. There are good people in the black lives matter community that want peace across the board.

Is this you denying that there are any flaws in the black lives matter community?

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 16, 2016, 12:46:58 AM
Yes. I know. There are good people in the black lives matter community that want peace across the board.

Is this you denying that there are any flaws in the black lives matter community?

Only if you are denying there are flaws in the police community. Otherwise, no.

The biggest difference is that the leaders of BLM address the actual flaws (obviously they don't address the black on black crime [as representatives of BLM anyways, though plenty of black right's activists do) since it is irrelevant to BLM) whereas many police forces cover up their crimes or give them paid leave. Or, in the case of so many of the cities around LA post Rodney King/LA riots, promote them to positions of power.


I will repeat this one more time, in hopefully a way that will make more sense...


-BLM does not address black on black crime as an organization because it is not their core focus. That said, members of the BLM have and do address these issues in more appropriate settings, such as with the AAPC, NAACP, the National Black MBA Association, and so on.
-The ALS Association does not address cancer or pneumonia as an organization because it is not their core focus. That said, members of the ALS Association do address these issues in more appropriate settings, such as... (insert cancer research organizations here).

This is why I kept on using that example; you are asking why organization x does not address issues outside of their cause and saying that as a criticism of them, when that is simply how any organization works.

I've never denied there are flaws in the police. I've even said it in this exact thread there are flaws in the police. If you read my post where I said 3 things that are good points about BLM, you would know that.

So again. Now your turn. What are some flaws in the BLM movement? I know we can come to some common ground here

Couldn't get the edit in in time. Ah well.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 16, 2016, 12:54:29 AM
I've never denied there are flaws in the police. I've even said it in this exact thread there are flaws in the police. If you read my post where I said 3 things that are good points about BLM, you would know that.

So again. Now your turn. What are some flaws in the BLM movement? I know we can come to some common ground here

Didn't think you do believe that, wasn't the point I was trying to make.

As a whole, I would say a stronger core message and mission statement would be helpful, or at least pushing that statement harder than they have. A more concentrated media effort would also have gone a long way at the beginning, though I feel at this point it is getting too late as people have already made their mind up.

One criticism I have as a "white" male (who has never been accepted as one amongst whites because of my quarter non-white blood and foreign name) is that the BLM members online will often spit in your face (figuratively) for showing support for the movement, implying that you are just doing it because of white guilt or to look like you care. Thankfully I have never had this type of reaction in the real world, so I think that is more of a keyboard warrior thing, but keyboard warriors are unfortunately more-or-less the most visible aspect of the movement. More statements from the leaders showing that everyone is welcome would be appreciated, but if it's like alot of their messages it probably would never make the media anyways.

QuoteOne criticism I have as a "white" male (who has never been accepted as one amongst whites because of my quarter non-white blood and foreign name) is that the BLM members online will often spit in your face (figuratively) for showing support for the movement, implying that you are just doing it because of white guilt or to look like you care.

Like I said. It's a non-inclusive ideology. Would you or would you not say there are double standards in the black lives movement? And why/why not?

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 16, 2016, 03:15:52 AM
Like I said. It's a non-inclusive ideology. Would you or would you not say there are double standards in the black lives movement? And why/why not?

It's really not though, no more than gays who tell me I have no right to be involved in their struggle ( and I have met just as many online as I have BLM who sat that). That doesn't mean the LGBT movement is non- inclusive for heterosexuals, it just means there are segments that feel so marginalized they don't want outsiders to help.

Edit: same with feminists, I have met one or two that feel that way. Otherwise every woman I have known is either indifferent that you are a decent human being, or finds it cool for a guy to identify with and support the movement.

I don't see any double standards, so I wouldn't say that, no.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2016, 11:56:39 PM
I agree that the movement hasn't done itself favours, but I would also argue having the entire mainstream media and society picking it apart for any and every flaw was not something that was overly helpful either. I think nearly any movement, good or bad, would be disliked if there were so many people looking to dislike it from the very beginning.

This is probably true. The Civil Rights movement seems to have had the same problems in many ways.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2016, 11:56:39 PMBLM, in the city I am in, has done charity work, peaceful protests, interacts perfectly fine with police, and so on.

Not good enough, dammit, not good enough! They can't be seen as paragons of virtue until they all become superheroes like Phoenix Jones!

(https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/xZzHiiKQHq0DzgoxOOzOvEjhT84=/0x102:1024x678/1600x900/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/45997178/Phoenix-Jones.0.0.jpg)

Quote from: Shiranu on August 15, 2016, 11:56:39 PMNo one ever mentions that huge majority that is working just as it should be though, the only attention are on the few bad seeds who then ruin the image of the entire movement. Which has it's ironic hypocrisy cranked to 10, when you consider certain posters say you cant judge all cops because a few are "bad seeds", but apparently judging the entire BLM movement for it's bad seeds is perfectly acceptable.

I've never been a fan of the "bad seeds" argument, and this goes for everyone on the forum that uses it. If the bad seeds are causing enough problems that they can hog all the attention, it's time to remove them from the ranks.

Entire cities have gone up in flames over this movement. How in the Hell do you dismiss these people as "a few bad seeds?" Would you give Christians the same level of forgiveness if they torched up small businesses and homes every time they were "persecuted?" Oh, it's okay. Christians have built wells to provide clean water in Africa, so what if they have a few violent angry mobs a couple times a year?

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 15, 2016, 07:03:14 PM


What I'm hearing you say is "You're white, you can't understand the lives of black people, this is the way social change happens, you are not offering a solution, shut up."

NO, I didn't say you can't understand black people. I didn't tell you to shut up, I apologise and I know it sounded that way because I am pissed off about the general perception on this subject.

But yes this is how social change happens. It's NOT my idea, I hate it.

QuoteSo apparently I can't understand the lives of black people. Most of them probably can't understand me. You certainly don't. How can you possibly understand what it was like growing up gay in the South in the 70's and 80's, when gays were arrested for "crimes against nature" and had their names listed in the local paper just for asking a guy out? Black people's families are black and share their experience as a black person, where gay people's families are not typically gay and often do not support you-- they sometimes disown you or send you to a psychiatrist so you can be "fixed." How can you understand what it is like being diagnosed with AIDS back before their was effective treatment, seeing your twenty-something year old friends die, knowing you're next, or your partner who gave you the virus is next, obsessing over every cough, every little purple bump, knowing people believe you and your friends deserve this, knowing the government is ignoring the problem? Black people get looked with suspicion, where I've had healthcare workers not want to touch me, much less regular people. I've participated in ACT UP, fought pharmaceutical companies, marched, protested, written letters to congress. I've been down the road of social activism. You don't know me. People like you don't get to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

Yes, I get it. You also mentioned about activism before. There is a big difference between your and their situation though. Please pay attention to me because I believe this is very important and makes all the difference. I also believe considering your field this is something you'd understand best.

-Black people born into a certain culture and big portion of that culture is about the history of a systematic atrocites commited to their people. And these actions have been regarded as LEGAL and DESERVED by tradition, RIGHT of white people law and supported by religious belief for hundreds of years.

They grow up learning -consciously and unconsciously- in that culture that a short time ago their people were sold, bought like cattle and even use like meat.  While there are other minorities that lived through similar histories, they are the only minority with this level of official stigma. There is no other.

This is a crippled identity from the beginning. This is pretty similar to the identities of the descendants of genocide survivors. GSO this is NOT something we can fully understand. What LGBT people face everywhere around the world is disgusting and this is not a contest of who is oppressed and struggled the most.

But most importantly, they are a whole independent people with their own culture. they live together and share this hatred, anger and history, the sense of other together in huge numbers and they are associated with everything negative as a reslt of strong bias.

But being gay and being black in this context have their differences.

-LGBT minority is NOT a community lgbt people born into. They choose to be a part of that community.
-They do not grow up with shared sense of history of anger and hatred until they realise their identity and enbrace it.
-Their realisation of their identity has countless various ways as many as the individuals in that community.
-They are not one community living somewhere as families and natural nuclear units.
-A white lgbt individual is not carrying his identity physically everywhere he goes at ever second. He has a chance to protect herself/himself; he can hide himself. (which is obvioulsy disgusting, I mean in some region or place he can cover by act) Someone with black skin colour does not have that option.

Add that the whole black culture and crime 'assocation' they are stigmatised with this only gets worse and worse.

No vigilante shoots a lgbt individual at sight because he might be dangerous. Because the negtaive assocations with these groups are different. Black people are undesrtood and accepted as the sole strong cause for crime in the USA.

So what happens? These people's collective background, their sense of community, culture; unity is completely different than other minorities. This is a fact. The collective pyschology and the collective identity of black people in this matter has no equal. Not in lgbt, but in other national minorities that survived genocide.

I know people are tired of hearing this, but this is the truth.

QuoteYou are correct that BLM is following the life cycle of similar social movements. There is a place for marching, a place for outrage, a place for challenging the status quo. There is also thinking strategically, going beyond raising awareness, setting concrete goals, winning hearts and minds, pointing out commonality rather difference, demonstrating that we are all in this together. To do the later you have to be willing to release your grip on some of the labels, expand your group, change how you see yourself so other people can see you differently. Identity politics is one way to look at a situation but not the only way and I criticize people who are so committed to that ideology they cannot see alternatives. Identity politics can only take you so far and it has the real problem of doing exactly what I did in the first paragraph-- constantly dividing people into ever narrowing groups of identity, where the individuals who have suffered the most are deemed the most virtuous, and so cling to that suffering. I know this because I've lived it.

This^ is good. But that is all that it is. It's good, it is beautiful. But unfortunately, you are just describing an ideal, my friend. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, people don't work that way. Reality doesn't work that way. It never did.

My problem is this. Before ideologies, deliberate movements there are other causes and reasons feeding the violent reactions of such groups and this never gets the attention enough. From socio-economic profiles to bias and other reasons brought up in other threads. For example what Pops formulated. Probably it was the only sesnible thing addressed in this issue in the forum. But what people goes on and on with is just bulllshit based on their personal perspective in their safe space.

What pisses me off that while white people 'criticising' the angry outrage of certain groups, they almost never consider their own place in the society they live in. What is that?

In an America, Trump gets his way -or in another country with another Trump; take it as a symbol- WHITE PEOPEL'S LIFE WILL NOT CHANGE. Among white people, in this forum, there is always this reaction and perspective made from a SAFE PLACE. 'Shaking finger' at the anger and outrage keep saying how some ideology is wrong and describe what should be the ideal. Nothing about the reality.

Everybody makes fun of the concept of empathy. However if a black or a non white presidential candidate made hostile politics against white people it WOULDN'T BE that way. Suddenly, the safe place would shatter and there would be the same outrage and anger.

This is what I mean by sitting in front of a computer and pitching "Myeh I don't like it...this is hostile, angry...etc.". Why? Because the individual is not in any potential danger and he is watching what's happening as he is watching a freaking movie.

I know all about this from the country live in. This is not something unique to black and white mess. The 'first class' citizens never ever get the other side and they sit on their ass and whine and complain about how so wrong is all that is happening. How do you think IRA started to bomb. Or PKK in Turkey. Or other places.

This is also why I am so pessimist in general. Nobody hears minorities of any kind or take them seriously until the get into some threatening position. Which means violence. This is the ugly fucking truth. Nothing is given, but taken. Because nothing actually ever changes and they know this.

I don't think I need to repeat that this is not something I support or defend.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 15, 2016, 10:19:19 PM
Bring up a good point and most of us on here will take it as a good point. No one is blockiing you from stating your positions, it just so happens that a bunch of your positions, the BLM movement.... your odd love for the third wave feminism movement.... to the point where you seem like you hate that you were born white and you hate that you were born male....

Oy vey...

This is probably the dumbest statement you have ever made in this forum. The bullshit you put up there is exactly the same with a religious freaking bigot coming back to someone supporting LGBT rights as 'Are you gay?! Why are you supporting this shit?' Or the same thing with 'blaming' an atheist supporting religous freedom with being a member of any religious group. Blaming me and Shiranu for 'defending' Islam. LOL

If you had a tiny bit of perspective, you could easily observe that in our little community ANYTHING out of a certain mainstream politics and set of opinions on gender issues or social issues is collectively suppressed.

This is what Shiranu is reacting all along, all this time. While you whine about tumblr and safe spaces, you and a several other members in the forum acts as if this is their own tumblr. You personally do a good job about this. You created a safe place.

Surprise, there is a huge amount of people that doesn't agree with you on those movements or some other issues and simply put, you can't put up with any different or opposing idea.


PS I really have no idea what happened to you in the last year, but you have completely changed. You are talking like those dumb people seeing the world in black and white, you used to get back with good responses. Considering you are in the process of becoming an individual, may be this is you. I don't know. I think it is just personal to me to see it. And no this is never about us agreeing on any topic.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 16, 2016, 11:51:03 AMYou created a safe place.

And that's why anyone who violates the sanctity of our safe space is banned on sight.

*snaps fingers*

Mods! Get to it! :lol:

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 16, 2016, 11:27:42 AM
NO, I didn't say you can't understand black people. I didn't tell you to shut up, I apologise and I know it sounded that way because I am pissed off about the general perception on this subject.

But yes this is how social change happens. It's NOT my idea, I hate it.


Yes, I get it. You also mentioned about activism before. There is a big difference between your and their situation though. Please pay attention to me because I believe this is very important and makes all the difference. I also believe considering your field this is something you'd understand best.

-Black people born into a certain culture and big portion of that culture is about the history of a systematic atrocites commited to their people. And these actions have been regarded as LEGAL and DESERVED by tradition, RIGHT of white people law and supported by religious belief for hundreds of years.

They grow up learning -consciously and unconsciously- in that culture that a short time ago their people were sold, bought like cattle and even use like meat.  While there are other minorities that lived through similar histories, they are the only minority with this level of official stigma. There is no other.

This is a crippled identity from the beginning. This is pretty similar to the identities of the descendants of genocide survivors. GSO this is NOT something we can fully understand. What LGBT people face everywhere around the world is disgusting and this is not a contest of who is oppressed and struggled the most.

But most importantly, they are a whole independent people with their own culture. they live together and share this hatred, anger and history, the sense of other together in huge numbers and they are associated with everything negative as a reslt of strong bias.

But being gay and being black in this context have their differences.

-LGBT minority is NOT a community lgbt people born into. They choose to be a part of that community.
-They do not grow up with shared sense of history of anger and hatred until they realise their identity and enbrace it.
-Their realisation of their identity has countless various ways as many as the individuals in that community.
-They are not one community living somewhere as families and natural nuclear units.
-A white lgbt individual is not carrying his identity physically everywhere he goes at ever second. He has a chance to protect herself/himself; he can hide himself. (which is obvioulsy disgusting, I mean in some region or place he can cover by act) Someone with black skin colour does not have that option.

Add that the whole black culture and crime 'assocation' they are stigmatised with this only gets worse and worse.

No vigilante shoots a lgbt individual at sight because he might be dangerous. Because the negtaive assocations with these groups are different. Black people are undesrtood and accepted as the sole strong cause for crime in the USA.

So what happens? These people's collective background, their sense of community, culture; unity is completely different than other minorities. This is a fact. The collective pyschology and the collective identity of black people in this matter has no equal. Not in lgbt, but in other national minorities that survived genocide.

I know people are tired of hearing this, but this is the truth.

Drunkenshoe, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I agree with what you wrote here. I accept that my understanding of the experience of black people in America is limited and I am working on it. I get BLM and I consider their cause righteous and their methods typical of other similar social movements. It's never perfect. For me though, while violence is to be expected, it isn't okay. I'm not ever going to give violence a pass simply because it is human nature. I also believe just because a group is oppressed doesn't mean their actions can't be criticized. To avoid doing so is patronizing.

I feel like because of my comment about empathy and my problem with identity politics people incorrectly think I've adopted others positions that I haven't. You are correct when you said what I'm talking about is an ideal, but I often operate from a place of idealism, a world of possibilities. I see the world in terms of ideas and no idea is beyond questioning, even if it hurts people's feelings, which I bend over backwards to avoid doing most of the time. I value empathy, I see the value of identity politics but I become frustrated when people only operate from that vantage point. I sincerely believe there is a problem in some areas of society, on the Left and Right, with groupthink, where you follow the narrative or you will be punished. That is my real beef.

QuoteWhat pisses me off that while white people 'criticising' the angry outrage of certain groups, they almost never consider their own place in the society they live in. What is that?

You know why. It's often difficult for people to view a situation from a vantage point other than their own when everything their experience is designed to support their current worldview. Why can't religious people just see a world with no god? It's not that easy. Add to that the fact black people are essentially telling white people, "You created this situation, you have privilege, you have the power in this society and therefore you have to change it." It isn't always easy accept.

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 16, 2016, 11:14:59 AM
Entire cities have gone up in flames over this movement. How in the Hell do you dismiss these people as "a few bad seeds?" Would you give Christians the same level of forgiveness if they torched up small businesses and homes every time they were "persecuted?" Oh, it's okay. Christians have built wells to provide clean water in Africa, so what if they have a few violent angry mobs a couple times a year?

Yeah, I really don't like the "few bad seeds" argument either. Several people, here on this very forum have actually argued that blacks can not be racist by definition. It's impossible for black people to be racist. The reality is, blacks are actually the most racist people in all of the US, but you can't bring that reality up or people get really offended. BLM and their supporters by their own actions, are far worse than the modern day KKK, or the people flying Confederate flags that people here get so butthurt over. The level of racism in the black community is to be expected though, and there are good reasons why things are this way. Their racism is more understandable due to what they've been through as a people, so they often get a pass for their racism, and even I'll give them a pass and not just say fuck them because they are racists. When people just ignore things like those blacks in Milwaukee targeting random white people driving by to fuck up, and try to say that black people can't be racist, that's just stupid, and you're only shooting yourself in the foot and making it look like you are cool with black racism by acting like it doesn't exist.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 16, 2016, 11:51:03 AM
Oy vey...

This is probably the dumbest statement you have ever made in this forum. The bullshit you put up there is exactly the same with a religious freaking bigot coming back to someone supporting LGBT rights as 'Are you gay?! Why are you supporting this shit?' Or the same thing with 'blaming' an atheist supporting religous freedom with being a member of any religious group. Blaming me and Shiranu for 'defending' Islam. LOL

If you had a tiny bit of perspective, you could easily observe that in our little community ANYTHING out of a certain mainstream politics and set of opinions on gender issues or social issues is collectively suppressed.

This is what Shiranu is reacting all along, all this time. While you whine about tumblr and safe spaces, you and a several other members in the forum acts as if this is their own tumblr. You personally do a good job about this. You created a safe place.

Surprise, there is a huge amount of people that doesn't agree with you on those movements or some other issues and simply put, you can't put up with any different or opposing idea.


PS I really have no idea what happened to you in the last year, but you have completely changed. You are talking like those dumb people seeing the world in black and white, you used to get back with good responses. Considering you are in the process of becoming an individual, may be this is you. I don't know. I think it is just personal to me to see it. And no this is never about us agreeing on any topic.

Can you explain to me what you think my position is on this? You give me the impression that you have zero clue.

And what happened to me is that I stopped blindly jumping in to movements because people's feelings are hurt and instead look at the issue more objectively and piece by piece.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 16, 2016, 03:29:21 AM
It's really not though, no more than gays who tell me I have no right to be involved in their struggle ( and I have met just as many online as I have BLM who sat that). That doesn't mean the LGBT movement is non- inclusive for heterosexuals, it just means there are segments that feel so marginalized they don't want outsiders to help.

Edit: same with feminists, I have met one or two that feel that way. Otherwise every woman I have known is either indifferent that you are a decent human being, or finds it cool for a guy to identify with and support the movement.

I don't see any double standards, so I wouldn't say that, no.

So if a BLM community member calls for dead cops, it's not a double standard to their "lives matter" part of their "black lives matter" slogan? I just want to make sure if this is or isn't what you're saying. Because to me, as someone that understands and even agrees with some of the points of the BLM movement, it seems a little hypocritical to say "black lives matter" followed up with a variation of "kill the cop".

I posted this in a different thread, but: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Eric-Garner-Manhattan-Dead-Cops-Video-Millions-March-Protest-285805731.html

If ^ that and things like that (riots, general hostility, etc) is not the representation of BLM, which I would say it isn't, they need to be more clear that they are distancing themselves from those violent bad apples. Because when there bad apples and the movement doesn't do what it can to distance it from them, the movement becomes what the bad apples are. This is already true with BLM and Feminsim. While I agree that black lives matter too and need to be given a more equal playing field, the movement has quickly become toxic because of these bad apples that the BLM community does not distance themselves from. Same thing with Feminism. While I agree that women should be treated with a more equal playing field, the toxic front-runners have morphed the movement in to a shit show. Both have become a completely different and very hostile moment from their more virtuous beginnings.

The LGBT community, as far as I'm aware, doesn't call for dead priests and doesn't start violent riots. It's pretty hard to compare those two for that reason.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 16, 2016, 12:46:07 PM
I get BLM and I consider their cause righteous and their methods typical of other similar social movements. It's never perfect. For me though, while violence is to be expected, it isn't okay. I'm not ever going to give violence a pass simply because it is human nature. I also believe just because a group is oppressed doesn't mean their actions can't be criticized. To avoid doing so is patronizing.

Agreed. It's just the common lack of perspective feels like a thorn in my thumb at most times. I really don't look at this from just one angle. [For example, I have a close friend couple living in South Africa and this issue is very different there from their perspective. (White couple)]

QuoteI feel like because of my comment about empathy and my problem with identity politics people incorrectly think I've adopted others positions that I haven't.

I get that. It happens to me a lot here.

QuoteYou are correct when you said what I'm talking about is an ideal, but I often operate from a place of idealism, a world of possibilities. I see the world in terms of ideas and no idea is beyond questioning, even if it hurts people's feelings, which I bend over backwards to avoid doing most of the time. I value empathy, I see the value of identity politics but I become frustrated when people only operate from that vantage point. I sincerely believe there is a problem in some areas of society, on the Left and Right, with groupthink, where you follow the narrative or you will be punished. That is my real beef.

This is what I have been trying to point out in this forum on many various topics. But unfortunately, the really big problem you describe above is a subject of a field which most Western people seem to believe is a subject of a made up field for political purposes.

What sparked my ire reading pr's posts about cultural marxism. What was the massive topic of social sicences until a few decades ago, now is a series of vlogs limited to 'liberal arts and gender issues' and how SJW groups is a threat to humanity: 'Regressive Left' :lol: 

This level of dumbing down and propaganda turns over my stomach, GSO. Common Western opinion/vision is having a brain hemorrhage. I'm very fond of it and it makes me angry. I'm serious about this. And I don't think I'm smarter or more intelligent than anyone...naaah not even close. But these are basic, best qualities of the culture in question and watching this specific bullshit is painful than any other. It almost seems to me that most Westerners don2t know much about their own culture and they don't respect it a bit either.

Breaking the narrative, creating new ones by theory and practice is a western invention. Too many people died for it, too many struggles went down. It's a very long process. So this going back to general right wing regressive, conservative mainstream of personal point of views bullshit in human right issues and home cooked "this is wroooong" has no orginality for me, because it is the freaking most ancient narrative itself. Well, I mean in the sense of creating vicitmhoods and imaginary problems that has nothing to do with reality; taking events with face value. Criticism is not 'this has flaaaaaws'. No shit, everyhing has flaws. t's the first condition of existance. If you are looking for something flawless or anything close to that you are living in delusion.

Go around the net and peek about what people talk about this subject generally. Race, gender..etc issues. You'll see nothing but a huge certain group 'discussing' these issues without any point but just under 'god ow I hate SJWs and regressive left'. This is the narrative that needs to be broken.

And yes very overwhelmingly they are white, male and heterosexual. And this is the new victimhood sold to millions of young people, they buy it and then they sell it over and over again to themselves and others. Everything is against them, yet they are the only group whose life won't change even if the worst happen to their society.

There is litreally a mass of people out there who are pissed of about things they have never lived in their lives, never experienced anything close that they make vlogs about them because they are annoyed by people who actually did and yelling out loud angry.

And saying all these things out loud makes you an extremist, someone who hates being male and white or obviously the white het male. How fucking dumb is that? 

QuoteYou know why. It's often difficult for people to view a situation from a vantage point other than their own when everything their experience is designed to support their current worldview. Why can't religious people just see a world with no god? It's not that easy. Add to that the fact black people are essentially telling white people, "You created this situation, you have privilege, you have the power in this society and therefore you have to change it." It isn't always easy accept.

You know what, I lately realised how much I actually expect from the members of this forum also from people generally. About this forum, I have no idea why, probably because somehow I got attached to it and its regulars. I get angry at them for not really looking into something from many levels about their own opinions, doesn't matter if I agree with it or not. That part really doesn't matter. Sometimes I really don't even care about the issue but how people evalaute it. It's weird. Oddly personal.

About idealism...Causes me nothing but pain, lol. Literally screwed my life up. I left my childhood dream job and the city I grew up in. And I won't be able to get out of it. It's also an occupational hazard. But I started to learn to get out of it when it is necessary while try to figure something out. Otherwise, I am with you on ideals all the way, but one needs to stomp on it when thinking about real life. After all, we are just animals.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 16, 2016, 01:37:02 PM
Can you explain to me what you think my position is on this? You give me the impression that you have zero clue.

I do have a clue, Steve. I read your posts. My reaction is to your response to some poster on supporting certain movements and your supposed way of 'criticism' of his stance. 

QuoteAnd what happened to me is that I stopped blindly jumping in to movements because people's feelings are hurt and instead look at the issue more objectively and piece by piece.

You haven't jumped on movements before. As far as I know you were always aware of the mutual bullshit going on. You also used to give good reactions to that bullshit.


Now you sound like you are in some 'team' and keeping track on who is in which one.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 16, 2016, 02:17:31 PM
I do have a clue, Steve. I read your posts. My reaction is to your response to some poster on supporting certain movements and your supposed way of 'criticism' of his stance. 

You haven't jumped on movements before. As far as I know you were always aware of the mutual bullshit going on. You also used to give good reactions to that bullshit.


Now you sound like you are in some 'team' and keeping track on who is in which one.

So before I respond to anything else you post in this thread, explain what you think my stance is. "I do understand" doesn't tell me anything. You seem to be severely misinterpreting my position.

Sent from your mom.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on August 16, 2016, 01:32:25 PM
Several people, here on this very forum have actually argued that blacks can not be racist by definition. It's impossible for black people to be racist. The reality is, blacks are actually the most racist people in all of the US, but you can't bring that reality up or people get really offended.

I just want to point out that "racism" has more than one definition, which can cause confusion. Some say blacks in American can't be racist because they lack the institutional power to affect the lives of white people. Similarly whites living in China can't be racist against Chinese people because whites are the minority. I prefer to say blacks can be prejudiced or bigoted because when talking about individuals that is often what people mean. Same thing with homophobic, which is a term I don't like because not every prejudice against homosexuals is based on fear. I prefer "He's bigoted against gay people" or "Tina is black and prejudiced against white people." I think it is more precise.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 16, 2016, 02:20:35 PM
So before I respond to anything else you post in this thread, explain what you think my stance is. "I do understand" doesn't tell me anything. You seem to be severely misinterpreting my position.

Sent from your mom.

I didn't even say anything about your position, but about how you respond to a specific poster in several threads about his general stance in the post above. And this is related to your general attitude to connected issues. 

There is a group founded for a specific casue. It's a messed up issue on racism between specifically black and white races in a certain country. And concerning this thread, your stance is about why black lives matter is about black lives matter, because they obviously about black lives. You have the same stance about feminism in your terms 'the' SJW. Why it is about women but not also men. Somehow you take it as some deliberate divisive action. No, it is the nature of all protest groups.

And after all that we talked about black crime and generally reached a consensus on black crime rate and started to discuss about its causes that there is also big bias in the juicidal system against these people -hint there is a big difference between black lives and white lives unfortunately- you are posting sarcastic few liners as if someone can't support BLM and also be aware of black crime rate along with their hostile reactions. Or as if someone can't be a feminist out of SJW groups. Reminder, these two groups are just several years old.

I don't know if you read the posts I wrote to GSO, but you are in the group that gets critcised there. Basically, all your critcism is based on why the specific group of blah blah is about blah blah but doesn't include the other blah blah and how this is a dangerous ideology, while you haven't lived any of the real life issues yourself.

(Please don't come back to me as 'bu you don't know my life and what I go through'. I know that -like me- your skin colour or sexual orientation has never been an issue to change your life for the worse. This goes for most of us here in this forum and this is crucial in reacting to these specific issues. Yeah the ugly truth. If it was you'd be reacting to these groups differently even not agreeing on a lot of things about them)

You are posting videos made for teenagers designed to elicit emotional reactions. They obviously get to you. It's basically childish stuff.

You are not offering a criticism or an explanation, but pitching a common place mainstream idea of a specific goup overwhemingly dominated by white heterosexual males and repeating a made up politcial propaganda that has been going around for the last few years. Regressive left bullshit.

For fuck's sake, Pickel. You have just told Shiranu that 'he sounds as if hates being white and male'. WTF? Does that sound like a healthy reaction to you? It's normal for a freaking religious nutjob to come here to throw that shit around on us. You are aware that you are personally offended that a white het male is supporting SJW groups? Because you are.

And as the last thing, you have this impatient fed up annoyance in your posts as if the existence of SJW groups is some deliberate injustice done to you personally. Like almost some sort of a conspiracy is going on.

None of these^are real. Fear. Frustration. Expectation. Not being able to see what the future will bring. Social media bullshit. Propaganda. They are all colliding together.

You are living in an era of your culture where certain identities are challenged -in a good or bad way- also a time of a great change in your country and the world. I am hoping Trump will lose and things will get calm down and I know this will make a difference on all Americans here, because it will make a difference on the general climate. You'll see how much of this bullshit is happening because of this weird, hostile election season afterwards.

American people are scared -rightfully- stressed out about certain issues more than the usual. Everyone feels like they need to pick a side. About anything. But this is not correct. This is just a strong need right now.

I know that fear. Very well. It's not a sudden thing but something that becomes a part of you and your life without you even notice it and affect all your judgement, vision and how you see yourself and your environment. World gets smaller, colours lose shades and you don't even get what has actually changed.

This is what I think and feel about you and your opinions on the subject. Personally, I see/feel a sharp change. Frankly, I don't think you are racist or sexist but just reacting to a bombardment of several propaganda from all corners that has been going on for some time. While you see yourself as staying away from movements and groups, you are acually embracing the biggest one in my opinion. The common narrative. Mainstream bullshit. I don't like it. But then who am I? This is just my personal reaction to you. You can consider as it is sincere or say fuck you and ignore it all, needlessly to say.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 16, 2016, 05:10:41 PM
This is what I think and feel about you and your opinions on the subject. Personally, I see/feel a sharp change. Frankly, I don't think you are racist or sexist but just reacting to a bombardment of several propaganda from all corners that has been going on for some time. While you see yourself as staying away from movements and groups, you are acually embracing the biggest one in my opinion. The common narrative. Mainstream bullshit. I don't like it. But then who am I? This is just my personal reaction to you. You can consider as it is sincere or say fuck you and ignore it all, needlessly to say.

That is not a representation of my position on this subject. That is your reasoning of why I have the position.

What are you assuming my position is?

Once I know if you understand what my specific view on all of this is, I can discuss this with you. It's a waste of my time and energy to discuss something with someone that that is arguing with me about something they misinterpreted.
I don't want a "why" I have whatever position you think it is. If you want to discuss the "why" after we clear up the other thing, fine. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

As for the comment I made about Shiranu hating being a white male, it's an observation I made that reminds me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilCmywMin8I

(it kind of loops too much for my taste, but you get the point)

I haven't really weighed in here, and that's because I honestly didn't know much about BLM beyond what I had heard in the media and various other biased sources.

So I decided to go right to the horse's mouth, the BLM website which is strangely enough a .com instead of a .org. Not sure if that is significant or not.

I took a trip over to the guiding principles section.

QuoteBlack Lives Matter is an ideological and political intervention in a world where Black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise.  It is an affirmation of Black folks’ contributions to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.

Alright, good enough. Maybe a little dramatic, but people who feel oppressed tend to do that when describing the nature of their oppression.

First Section titled: Diversity

QuoteWe are committed to acknowledging, respecting and celebrating difference(s) and commonalities.

Great. Nothing inherently wrong here. Sounds fine.

Second Section title: Restorative Justice

QuoteWe are committed to collectively, lovingly and courageously working vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension all people. As we forge our path, we intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

Okay, community building is fine. Not really sure what they mean by restorative instead of depleting. Those words don't seem like they fit into the concept they are trying to convey. It would be nice if I could click on these sections for more detailed thoughts but that doesn't seem to be an option.

Third Section title: Unapolagetically Black

QuoteWe are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a necessary prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

I don't really know what it means to be "black" in your positioning. That doesn't make sense to me at all, and a cynical part of me suspects that the person who wrote it doesn't have a coherent idea of what it means either. Sounds like something that was added to the site because it sounded good. The rest is fine. Of course such a simple statement of demand for equality does not need to be qualified, when considered on its own.

Fourth Section title: Globalism

QuoteWe see ourselves as part of the global Black family and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black folk who exist in different parts of the world

Uh I guess my strongest reaction to this statement is "why?". What do African Americans have in common with black people in any other part of the world other than the tone of their skin and a common genetic ancestry (which by the way every human on Earth actually shares at some point in the tree).

Fifth Section title: Black Women

QuoteWe are committed to building a Black women affirming space free from sexism, misogyny, and male‐centeredness.

Well, it was smooth sailing until now. Although this section is titled "Black Women" it doesn't really have anything to do with being black. This is new age feminism infecting a movement that doesn't really have anything inherently to do with it.

Sixth Section title: Collective Value

QuoteWe are guided by the fact all Black lives, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status or location

Oh my goodness, and the kitchen sink too. Its nice that this movement is so inclusive. Unless, you know, you're a CIS white male. In that case you're on your own. Not invited to this wonderful new world of equality BLM is going to summon through sheer force of righteousness.

Seventh Section title: Transgender Affirming

QuoteWe are committed to embracing and making space for trans brothers and sisters to participate and lead. We are committed to being self-reflexive and doing the work required to dismantle cis-gender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

Yee haw gentlemen start your engines. Sorry, sorry. I mean gentlepersons. The Black Women section was pretty bad about having nothing to do with racial injustice, but this one basically comes right out and declares that BLM is either being hijacked by SJW's or has been completely hijacked by SJW's. Anyone remember when this movement was about cops shooting black people unnecessarily? I guess those days are long gone. I wonder if black people who think of themselves as part of BLM are even aware of how many other non-black groups the movement is presently trying to cram into its agenda.

Eighth Section title: Black Villages

QuoteWe are committed to disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, and especially “our” children to the degree that mothers, parents and children are comfortable.

This section baffles me because I am unable to figure out who it is supposed to appeal to.

Ninth Section title: Empathy

QuoteWe are committed to practicing empathy; we engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

Unless you're a CIS white male i guess.

Tenth Section title: Black Families

QuoteWe are committed to making our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We are committed to dismantling the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” that require them to mother in private even as they participate in justice work.

More SJW/modern feminism stuff. The boogeyman patriarchy lives here. Doesn't really have anything to do with racial issues. Also curious about what they mean by "justice work".

Eleventh Section title: Loving Engagement

QuoteWe are committed to embodying and practicing justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.

Great. Hard to argue with that, though that's probably because the statement is so simplistic that there's literally nothing to discuss.

Twelfth Section title: Queer Affirming

QuoteWe are committed to fostering a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking or, rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual unless s/he or they disclose otherwise.

I can almost smell the overwieght purple haired white girl that wrote all these SJW sections. Again I am forced to ask, what does this have to do with racial issues?

Thirteenth Section title: Intergenerational

QuoteWe are committed to fostering an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, shows up with capacity to lead and learn.

LOL even ageism is included. I guess it is literally the case that everyone is invited to this movement except heterosexual white men under the age of 60.

It appears that the BLM movement has swallowed the poison pill that is the SJW community. What started as a movement born from an outcry against racial oppresseion has now become something that, according to these principles, has only a passing relationship to black people and racial issues. SJW's have burrowed beneath the skin of this movement and consumed it from within and now it is nothing more than a puppet, animated to promote an agenda not its own.

Occupy and Tea Party were taken over by agents of The Man ... just like in the bad old 1960s.  There are no social movements, that aren't coopted by the authorities.  They can't afford to not control everything, or they end up in the Plac du Concorde.

I was gone all day, and man do I have alot of text to shift through now :|...

QuoteWould you give Christians the same level of forgiveness if they torched up small businesses and homes every time they were "persecuted?"

If we are going to be calling out illogical comparisons, then I think comparing the way Christians are treated and the way African Americans are treated by society is hands down the most illogical comparison to have been posted these last few days.

Quote...to the point where you seem like you hate that you were born white and you hate that you were born male....

As I have said before, I don't hate being "born white" because I was never been identified as white until I removed my mom's last name and moved out of a very bigoted part of the United States (when I was 20). I would love to be considered white, I think that would be wonderful. But as it stands, people see a "foreign" first name, a Latin last name (and before that a Latin-Middle Eastern hyphenated last name), olive skin and black hair, beard and eyes and insisted that I was not white.

I am "3/4ths" white, I was raised by white grand parents, I went to a Lutheran church, etc. ... I am in every way culturally white but was never allowed to be part of the white culture because I was mixed. Likewise I was always a bit of an oddity when I hung out with the Latinos, because I wasn't brown and I didn't speak Spanish, nor could I understand the struggles they went through at home or the nuances of their culture.

If there is anything I would "hate" being, it's that I would hate being born to my mother's family who's father was Middle Eastern and who's mother was Irish/Italian. I would "hate" being born to an French/Irish father who had a Latin last name because of his Roman Catholic heritage and not because he was Latino.

But frankly... I am proud of all my heritage, particularly my Irish... and that is about as white as it gets.

As for hating being male; I'll confess, I do think the female gender probably fits me better, and in another life I might consider myself transgender. But after 26 years of being a male I am comfortable with having a penis and frankly thankful for the biological and social privileges that gives me. And even if I did considered myself transgendered that would have nothing to do with the feminist movement because I don't feel you can ever "truly" be a woman if you were originally a man.

If we are going to accuse people of not understanding where the other's are coming from, I just thought I would clear that up.

QuoteSo if a BLM community member calls for dead cops, it's not a double standard to their "lives matter" part of their "black lives matter" slogan? I just want to make sure if this is or isn't what you're saying. Because to me, as someone that understands and even agrees with some of the points of the BLM movement, it seems a little hypocritical to say "black lives matter" followed up with a variation of "kill the cop".

And if the leaders and the movement itself agreed with it, or even stayed silent about it, then you would have a point. The BLM is NOT about that, and it has made that expressively clear plenty of times.

Quote... they need to be more clear that they are distancing themselves from those violent bad apples.

And herein lies the problem, and it expands to feminism as you mentioned as well; these movements DO distance themselves, clearly, from these actions. The major issue is that this distancing is ignored. You can say something as clearly as you want, but if the media refuses to report it and only continues to print, "If it bleeds (or screams) it leads.", then it is not a failing of the movement but of a society that chooses to ignore what they are actually saying and instead continues to only listen to their one side of the argument.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 17, 2016, 12:54:13 AMIf we are going to be calling out illogical comparisons, then I think comparing the way Christians are treated and the way African Americans are treated by society is hands down the most illogical comparison to have been posted these last few days.

If I were comparing the kind of persecution that each group had to deal with, yes, it would be illogical. However, that was not the point of the comparison, and you're evading. The point is that the good acts of some members of a group do not justify the violence of others in the same group. I don't care if BLM activists collect money for charity when they're burning down neighborhoods over the deaths of criminals.

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 17, 2016, 02:01:48 AM
The point is that the good acts of some members of a group do not justify the violence of others in the same group.

Yes^

If the violent members do not represent the BLM movement, the BLM movement needs to separate them from their identity. If you don't prune dead branches off your rose bush, the whole plant gets sick. And this is what happened to the BLM movement.

Quote from: Blackleaf on August 17, 2016, 02:01:48 AM
If I were comparing the kind of persecution that each group had to deal with, yes, it would be illogical. However, that was not the point of the comparison, and you're evading. The point is that the good acts of some members of a group do not justify the violence of others in the same group. I don't care if BLM activists collect money for charity when they're burning down neighborhoods over the deaths of criminals.

Then all atheists should be held responsible for the acts of Pol Pot and his regime? After all, the good of some does not justify the evils of others.

You can use that argument against any group to make them look bad; BLM, the police, communists, liberals, republicans, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims... You get the idea.

The problem is you can't say don't hold one side to that standard when you hold another to the same. The bad acts of BLM reflect the small percentage of bad seeds, just as the bad acts of cops reflect the small percentage of bad cops... the major difference being that too many bad seeds hold positions of power in the police force and the PDs are suppose to be held to a higher standard.

Also you show severe lack of understanding of why rioting happens and casually imply that they were criminals and therefore you shouldn't be as upset, as if criminals have less right to be treated like humans. That is a painfully American world view in several ways....

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 17, 2016, 02:08:12 AM
Yes^

If the violent members do not represent the BLM movement, the BLM movement needs to separate them from their identity. If you don't prune dead branches off your rose bush, the whole plant gets sick. And this is what happened to the BLM movement.

And again, they do. Just because the anti-BLM ignore it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And you are seriously doing the exact thing you have criticised people for doing towards police, as well as what you just liked Black for criticising!

I really cannot believe you want to talk about double standards when you have done this thread after thread.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 17, 2016, 02:16:50 AM
And again, they do.

Link me, buddy.

QuoteAnd you are seriously doing the exact thing you have criticised people for doing towards police!

Correct. It's both shit. BLM people that start hate/violence towards police and white people AND Blue Lives matter people that start hate/violence towards black people.

Is that difficult for you to understand? I did say that those two are the two different sides of the same shit-coin... or do you not remember that?

Quote from: Nonsensei on August 16, 2016, 06:40:28 PM[spoiler]
Third Section title: Unapolagetically Black
I don't really know what it means to be "black" in your positioning. That doesn't make sense to me at all, and a cynical part of me suspects that the person who wrote it doesn't have a coherent idea of what it means either. Sounds like something that was added to the site because it sounded good. The rest is fine. Of course such a simple statement of demand for equality does not need to be qualified, when considered on its own.

Fourth Section title: Globalism
Uh I guess my strongest reaction to this statement is "why?". What do African Americans have in common with black people in any other part of the world other than the tone of their skin and a common genetic ancestry (which by the way every human on Earth actually shares at some point in the tree).

Fifth Section title: Black Women
Well, it was smooth sailing until now. Although this section is titled "Black Women" it doesn't really have anything to do with being black. This is new age feminism infecting a movement that doesn't really have anything inherently to do with it.

Sixth Section title: Collective Value
Oh my goodness, and the kitchen sink too. Its nice that this movement is so inclusive. Unless, you know, you're a CIS white male. In that case you're on your own. Not invited to this wonderful new world of equality BLM is going to summon through sheer force of righteousness.

Seventh Section title: Transgender Affirming
Yee haw gentlemen start your engines. Sorry, sorry. I mean gentlepersons. The Black Women section was pretty bad about having nothing to do with racial injustice, but this one basically comes right out and declares that BLM is either being hijacked by SJW's or has been completely hijacked by SJW's. Anyone remember when this movement was about cops shooting black people unnecessarily? I guess those days are long gone. I wonder if black people who think of themselves as part of BLM are even aware of how many other non-black groups the movement is presently trying to cram into its agenda.

Eighth Section title: Black Villages
This section baffles me because I am unable to figure out who it is supposed to appeal to.

Ninth Section title: Empathy
Unless you're a CIS white male i guess.

Tenth Section title: Black Families
More SJW/modern feminism stuff. The boogeyman patriarchy lives here. Doesn't really have anything to do with racial issues. Also curious about what they mean by "justice work".

Eleventh Section title: Loving Engagement
Great. Hard to argue with that, though that's probably because the statement is so simplistic that there's literally nothing to discuss.

Twelfth Section title: Queer Affirming
I can almost smell the overwieght purple haired white girl that wrote all these SJW sections. Again I am forced to ask, what does this have to do with racial issues?

Thirteenth Section title: Intergenerational
LOL even ageism is included. I guess it is literally the case that everyone is invited to this movement except heterosexual white men under the age of 60.

It appears that the BLM movement has swallowed the poison pill that is the SJW community. What started as a movement born from an outcry against racial oppresseion has now become something that, according to these principles, has only a passing relationship to black people and racial issues. SJW's have burrowed beneath the skin of this movement and consumed it from within and now it is nothing more than a puppet, animated to promote an agenda not its own.

Scratch...delete.

First I started to write a long post to you and then realised that while you won't read any of it, you'll come back to me with a series of obnoxious insults and in the end it is just my time and energy is wasted.

All you are saying up there can be summarised thus:

"I don't see or believe these groups have the issues they claim they do. So they are harmful."

You are trying to put round holes in square pegs and keep complaining 'I don't get why don't these fit'.

I practically cried out at this point:

QuoteFifth Section title: Black Women
Well, it was smooth sailing until now. Although this section is titled "Black Women" it doesn't really have anything to do with being black. This is new age feminism infecting a movement that doesn't really have anything inherently to do with it.

Sixth Section title: Collective Value
Oh my goodness, and the kitchen sink too. Its nice that this movement is so inclusive. Unless, you know, you're a CIS white male. In that case you're on your own. Not invited to this wonderful new world of equality BLM is going to summon through sheer force of righteousness.

Seventh Section title: Transgender Affirming
Yee haw gentlemen start your engines. Sorry, sorry. I mean gentlepersons. The Black Women section was pretty bad about having nothing to do with racial injustice, but this one basically comes right out and declares that BLM is either being hijacked by SJW's or has been completely hijacked by SJW's. Anyone remember when this movement was about cops shooting black people unnecessarily? I guess those days are long gone. I wonder if black people who think of themselves as part of BLM are even aware of how many other non-black groups the movement is presently trying to cram into its agenda.

Could you please draw me a map of showing this unbelivable agenda of SJWs and their motivations and how those^ fit in there? What's their strategy with BLM group for example? What will they gain to what the end? Your post reads like illuminati bullshit.

You have no perspective whatsoever of the hierarchy of cultural and racial diversity in your -or any other human- society, literally cannot get that people born into an identity they do not choose but has to live with. Do you know who is not forced to learn about that? The people included in the group at the top of that hierarchy.

Your basic idea about all protest groups are roughly 'I don't see anything wrong going on, I don't believe in these issues so it doesn't exist and rest is made up'. All you are jacked about is the 'You are cis white male' part.

How on earth anyone could think that being a black transgender wouldn't include any issues to do with race, but just some agenda of a certain gender group?! How fucking dumb is that? Which planet do you live in? That's basiclly saying 'there is no racism in where we live'. Oh ffs.

These threads are being very educative about a certain American culture. Some people are basically clueless about the most basic things in their own culture, let alone human culture(s) and the interesting thing is they are awfully persistent about not getting it. That tells me there is another thing under this.

There is almost a deliberate, self preserving ignorance and dumbing down on this issue, pretty much similar to religious group regarding secular 'intellectuals' and intellectualism as something 'evil' and to be scared of; a threat against civilisation. I don't know if it is the gross, overwheming bombardment of propaganda and deadly intense capitalism you people live under, but it is a mess. It's a bloody gangren wound.

The reaction to BLM objectives as in 'hijacked by SJWs' could only be a personal issue, becasue literally nobody can be that stupid who is aware of the issue itself. Certainly not the people here are, so there must be something else in this.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 16, 2016, 05:26:18 PM
That is not a representation of my position on this subject. That is your reasoning of why I have the position.

What are you assuming my position is?

Ehh...I wrote up there what I think your position is. What are you on about, Pickel?

Here is a new one for you. Everything I wrote to Nonsensei, goes for you too.  You are much more transparent than you think and everything is in the open.

Ds, I want to float to you the idea that whenever you think you understand what our position is on this issue, you have been and continue to be completely off base. It's so bad that you make yourself appear to be inventing positions for us, which you then address.

A prime example is the last post of mine you quoted. The point I was making was that BLM seems to only have a passing relationship to racial issues today. The movement used to be about racism and violence against Black people but now it inexplicably is including all of these other topics - topics that yes, absolutely, you will hear being parrot ed by SJW's.

I spelled this out very clearly in the last paragraph of my post but I guess you chose to completely ignore it like it didn't exist and instead demanded I provide a map of the SJW agenda whatever that means.

Sorry but demanding a map you know I can't provide doesn't make you right. This LGBT modern feminism safe space stuff is unquestionably the hallmark of SJW discourse and has been for years.

But that wasn't the point of my post. The real point was that BLM is no longer mainly about black lives, and based on the BLM website it appears that SJW'S are to blame for it.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 17, 2016, 08:11:07 AM
Ehh...I wrote up there what I think your position is. What are you on about, Pickel?

Here is a new one for you. Everything I wrote to Nonsensei, goes for you too.  You are much more transparent than you think and everything is in the open.

Well... No. No you didn't. You explain why my position is, without identifying what my position is.
You seem to still severely misunderstanding and misrepresenting our position and points and until I know exactly what is going on in your head about what they are, not why they are, I will not continue. At this point I don't even know what you're discussing.



Sent from your mom.

It's like I said "my mom made chicken again... I'm so tired of chicken."

And you go
"you hate your mom because you guys have a lot of arguments and you think she wants to frustrate you with food you hate. "

That is how off base you seem. You keep missing the points and then jumping to conclusions to why you those points were made... Even though they were never made.

Sent from your mom.

Quote from: Nonsensei on August 17, 2016, 08:48:34 AM
Ds, I want to float to you the idea that whenever you think you understand what our position is on this issue, you have been and continue to be completely off base. It's so bad that you make yourself appear to be inventing positions for us, which you then address.

I explanied many times how you people ignore the fact that SJWs are got included in a ready politcial propaganda and what you are supposedly criticising is this, but you are not aware why this is happening.

QuoteA prime example is the last post of mine you quoted. The point I was making was that BLM seems to only have a passing relationship to racial issues today. The movement used to be about racism and violence against Black people but now it inexplicably is including all of these other topics - topics that yes, absolutely, you will hear being parrot ed by SJW's.

Yes, because racial problems do not go away when they are transgender or a lgbt group, actually they get worse. An overwhelming percentage of trangender homicide vicitms are black. Same goes for other lgbt groups.

QuoteI spelled this out very clearly in the last paragraph of my post but I guess you chose to completely ignore it like it didn't exist and instead demanded I provide a map of the SJW agenda whatever that means.

Sorry but demanding a map you know I can't provide doesn't make you right. This LGBT modern feminism safe space stuff is unquestionably the hallmark of SJW discourse and has been for years.

You are talking about SJWs as if they are some sort of an underground organisation bent on conquering the world. Are you aware of that? You are taking about agendas and interventions into groups as if some big conspiracy is going on.

QuoteBut that wasn't the point of my post. The real point was that BLM is no longer mainly about black lives, and based on the BLM website it appears that SJW'S are to blame for it.

Oh is it? Because you, what was that you wrote, can't get what is being unapologetically black? How is it that you think these issue are not tangled up within? again because you have never experienced them and that you are totally alien to it?

When that son of a bitch in one of your jobs managed to wear you out and draw you from your job he did it because you were open about your atheism and you didn't apologise for it. According to the standard, traditional cultural hierarchy you should have been apologetic, secretive about your position according to him, because religious people are above atheist by numbers and many other cultural-social norms. No religious people would understand your position, nor defend you or stand by you in a work environment. Most religous people believe atheism is some sort of a cult trying to invade the world.

Only if you got organised by other atheists or nonreligious people who are willing to support you could help you in that situation if you fought back. And you wouldn't trust any religious people in that situation either.

Does this sound familiar to you a bit?

Now we get the other part of the issue. One of the reasons you were targeted was you being male and white. If you were a woman, you could get away with it or not taken seriously enough if nonwhite. Or it could have been worse, but they wuold play a role. Are you following? Your skin colour and your gender and your sexual orientation has a role in this bullshit on how you get treated when 'breaking' rules or 'obeying' them. For good or the bad. Women always suffer less of their politcial and religious opinions in certain societies, because they do not really 'count'; not seen as a threat and so not taken seriously; not listened. While white males are the main target.

Doesn't matter if you get it or not, being a white male makes you a main target because the social hierarchy defines as you one. Same thing goes when you commit a crime. The same dynamics go on for women and nonwhite people in a different way, with different connections.

Race and gender and sexual orientation can look completely unrelated from afar in their niches in human rights on paper, when it comes to social real life and human interaction, they are pretty much tangled up within in a human's life and there is a difference in being a black lgbt individual and a white one.



PS While you constantly blame me with not getting your position, you never read anything I write and take it something offered by a real life person. It's almost that you see me as some 'evil' android programmed to put Americans and white cis males down for pleasure. Last time I wrote you a proper post, your response was something idiotic as 'Oh do you know everything, drunkenshoe?'. You don't like to engage with someone, esp a woman -yes exactly- that can give you some response you might not be able to deal with. And as a result you just created an evil opponent, fantasy shoe character some how she doesn't get anything at all, but just being evil all around...Wohoooooo. And you think I should be engaging with someone who sees me as enemy and insults me whenever I respnd to him with an easy going manner?

I'll send an audio to you me talking about this and that, and may be then you get that I am actually a normal, walking talking person. :lol:

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 17, 2016, 09:12:25 AM
You explain why my position is, without identifying what my position is.

Good we are getting somewhere. Because that's your position. This is what you keep pitching. It's what you feel about SJW groups in general, not what you think about the issue. Because you define yourself on some side they are against. Your response is highly emotional while you keep blaming Shiranu for the same thing thinking you are being rational. The flaws you claim the group has are things that cannot be controlled but you are not even aware of it.

You keep picking reasons from the point of view on why BLM is wrong rather than why they exist in the first place. It's about your SJW hatred, not some opinion on why protest groups get in a certain vicious cycle, why this is almost always the same. GSO wrote about it, I wrote about it. This is the issue here. Instead of engaging something objective you are agreeing and sharing about SJW agendas in BLM.

This is the last post I am indulging your hide and seek. Honestly, I am not really excited to hear your extended ideas after your reaction to Shiranu. And I am afraid this is going to go as banning a random new member for supporting any SJW groups in the near future. Mark my words.

Quote from: GSOgymrat on August 16, 2016, 02:48:43 PM
I just want to point out that "racism" has more than one definition, which can cause confusion. Some say blacks in American can't be racist because they lack the institutional power to affect the lives of white people. Similarly whites living in China can't be racist against Chinese people because whites are the minority. I prefer to say blacks can be prejudiced or bigoted because when talking about individuals that is often what people mean. Same thing with homophobic, which is a term I don't like because not every prejudice against homosexuals is based on fear. I prefer "He's bigoted against gay people" or "Tina is black and prejudiced against white people." I think it is more precise.

Blacks targeting random white people driving by to attack are affecting the lives of white people by beating the shit out of them, are they not? How often does one put things the way you just did when defending the "blacks can't be racist" claim. Your explanation I don't have much of a problem with, but that's not how someone from BLM is going to respond. They're not going to say, "yeah, we've got a lot of prejudiced people here at BLM and a lot of prejudiced people that support our cause. They're prejudiced, not racist." You just don't hear that. What you usually hear is more along the lines of, "I can say whatever the hell I want about white people, and you can take no issue with it because I can't possibly be racist. My skin is black." Even most of the white people who defend them will say pretty much the same thing. "Blacks are a minority so they can't be racist" and they just leave it at that, without bringing up how they're actually prejudiced rather than racist. This attitude is harmful to the cause of making things better for blacks, because it sounds like the person is defending racist attitudes, and this type of thing is only going to bring the movement down.

Like I said before though, blacks have been through a lot and are still going through a lot, so what I want is for the government to fix the schools, the for-profit prison system to become a thing of the past, the war on drugs to end, and police brutality to go down even further, to make blacks less inclined to be racist or prejudiced against white people in general. I'm not just going to say fuck them because they are racists. I want to help them become less racist by giving them more opportunity in life.

Quote from: FaithIsFilth on August 17, 2016, 10:52:19 AM
Blacks targeting random white people driving by to attack are affecting the lives of white people by beating the shit out of them, are they not? How often does one put things the way you just did when defending the "blacks can't be racist" claim. Your explanation I don't have much of a problem with, but that's not how someone from BLM is going to respond. They're not going to say, "yeah, we've got a lot of prejudiced people here at BLM and a lot of prejudiced people that support our cause. They're prejudiced, not racist." You just don't hear that. What you usually hear is more along the lines of, "I can say whatever the hell I want about white people, and you can take no issue with it because I can't possibly be racist. My skin is black." Even most of the white people who defend them will say pretty much the same thing. "Blacks are a minority so they can't be racist" and they just leave it at that, without bringing up how they're actually prejudiced rather than racist. This attitude is harmful to the cause of making things better for blacks, because it sounds like the person is defending racist attitudes, and this type of thing is only going to bring the movement down.

Saying "I'm not racist" doesn't mean much no matter who says it. My strategy is to focus on behavior rather than labels. "Attitudes" are subjective and difficult to address but behaviors such as name-calling, calls to violence, physical attacks, destruction of property are objective facts and less easily dismissed. People, no matter what their skin color, should be responsible for their own behavior. I would say drive-by attacks of people based on their skin color is something a reasonable BLM person would object to, although not all people are reasonable.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 17, 2016, 10:11:00 AM
Good we are getting somewhere. Because that's your position. This is what you keep pitching. It's what you feel about SJW groups in general, not what you think about the issue. Because you define yourself on some side they are against. Your response is highly emotional while you keep blaming Shiranu for the same thing thinking you are being rational. The flaws you claim the group has are things that cannot be controlled but you are not even aware of it.

You keep picking reasons from the point of view on why BLM is wrong rather than why they exist in the first place. It's about your SJW hatred, not some opinion on why protest groups get in a certain vicious cycle, why this is almost always the same. GSO wrote about it, I wrote about it. This is the issue here. Instead of engaging something objective you are agreeing and sharing about SJW agendas in BLM.

This is the last post I am indulging your hide and seek. Honestly, I am not really excited to hear your extended ideas after your reaction to Shiranu. And I am afraid this is going to go as banning a random new member for supporting any SJW groups in the near future. Mark my words.

It's not hide and seek when I'm asking you to actually repeat back to me what my position is, so I know exactly what I'm discussing with you. And that's fine. If you don't want to give me a roadmap of where you twisted my position to in your head, I'll move on from discussing it with you. I've learned from the past times you've done this that it's not worth the effort to try discussing something with you if you're stubbornly insisting that I'm saying something that I'm not and even more than twisting what I was saying, focusing on the "why" of that distorted representation of what I said.

You still are misrepresenting my position. Even with this last post that I quoted. Until you can actually go read and actually figure it out, which isn't hard to do, instead of twisting it to something else, I cannot go back to having the discussion with you.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 17, 2016, 01:06:03 PM
It's not hide and seek when I'm asking you to actually repeat back to me what my position is, so I know exactly what I'm discussing with you. And that's fine. If you don't want to give me a roadmap of where you twisted my position to in your head, I'll move on from discussing it with you.

You still are misrepresenting my position. Even with this last post that I quoted. Until you can actually go read and actually figure it out, which isn't hard to do, instead of twisting it to something else, I cannot go back to having the discussion with you.

I am curious what do you think I would gain by 'twisting' your position in my head on some domestic issue about your country.

We haven't discussed anything from the beginning. So I haven't represented/misrepresented anything. I went into a personal conversation with you, I shouldn't have done that. It's not necessary. It's probbaly about the change I went through lately. (When we last spoke in fb, I told you what happened because you changed, remember? Then I said nevermind when you asked what has chanaged. Yeah something like that. Meaning I already thought about this before.)   

QuoteI've learned from the past times you've done this that it's not worth the effort to try discussing something with you if you're stubbornly insisting that I'm saying something that I'm not and even more than twisting what I was saying, focusing on the "why" of that distorted representation of what I said.

So this is a premature reaction and also not necessary. I wasn't 'accusing' you with anything. There are lots of difference reasons why people insist on their opinions to begin with rather than playing games to distort/misrepresent others' opinions and positions. Generally people don't -and certainly I don't- comment on a subject with an agenda to misrepresent others. But I do believe your reactions to certain things have changed and it will have consequences for you and people around you. That's it.

E: So basically my mistake. You can ignore it all. Not really important.

The concept of race- that humanity is divided into biologically separate groups that represent sub-species of some kind- is a specifically modern western one. Its genesis lies in mid-eighteenth century developments in biological classification; both Buffon and Linnaeus wrote about race as a biological category. "Scientific" racism had its heyday in the period from 1850 to the end of WW2. The "scientific" racists produced elaborate hierarchies of allegedly iinferior and superior racial types, with pale-skinned Europeans ("whites") inevitably at the top, and dark-skinned Africans and Native Australians ("blacks") inevitably at the bottom.

Race proved to be a popular concept, and its sadly unsurprising that this was the case. The historical period in question was one in which pale-skinned Europeans were busily exploiting their dark-skinned slaves, and busily conquering lands inhabited by people with differently coloured skin. The discourse of "scientific" racism that people like de Gobineau articulated was a very convenient justification for their atrocious behaviour towards their differently-skin-coloured victims. And skin colour wasn't the only thing- Jews were also classified as a "race", giving allegedly "scientific" support to the anti-Semitism that had been endemic for centuries in western culture. And we all know how that one ended up.

Happily, modern Biology has pretty much discarded the concept of "race" completely- it turns out that "race" just isn't a useful way of looking at population genetics.

Now...one might think that progressives and others on the left would wish to do likewise and say something like "Race should not be a legitimate category in political discourse". After all, as well as being unscientific, "race" has a proven its toxicity over and over and over again. But no...some supposed left-wingers- in the absence of a better term I'll call them SJWs- actually buy into the whole idea of racial distinctions being fundamental. In other words: SJWs accept and promulgate the worldview that underlies racial supremacism, while simultaneously claiming to be fighting against it.

Note that I say that SJWs are supposedly left-wing. Personally, I view them as belonging much more on the authoritarian right. The difference between the SJWs and the KKK (and their ilk) seems to me to be this: the SJWs are pushing for priveleges for relatively marginalized groups; the KKK wants priveleges for the powerful pale-skinned majority. Thats an important distinction because it makes the KKK far more dangerous- their support base is potentially much bigger and stronger. But other than that, the two have a great deal in common: as well as a shared underlying worldview, they're both pro-censorship, anti-individualist (people are mainly seen in terms of group membership), pro-quotas, tolerant of racially-motivated violence from "their" side, and so on.

SJWs and white supremacism are two sides of the same coin. The rational thing to do is to throw away the coin.                   

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 15, 2016, 05:09:11 PM
I can't understand? Get your head out of your ass. If you can't, remember that you don't need to respond everything that has your name on it. After all, if you are criticising the reactions of the protests of a minority group, at least check your reactions to the simple little remark in an internet forum while you are constantly pitching your annoyance to some real life people. You get pissed off by videos made for 15 year old girls, kiddo. Get real.

No, you haven't put anything on here. None of you have. All you do is whining about something perfectly 'normal' that has been going for thousands of years.

See, "This movement is toxic, it is hostile, but I agree with some of its points, but I don't like it" is not enough. Neither is it a response. All you are reacting is the FEAR. The uncomformism of it. There is an issue. A very serious domestic issue of races that has been going through for a loooooong time. None of you -or me- is living nor has lived the consequences of this issue(s). But what you have been doing though is sitting down in front of your computers and throwing about how fucking wrong a group of black people are reacting to this issue. That is it. Your personal emotions and your personal experiences.


Could you please tell me,

-How should they react?

-How should they protest?

-How should they talk, advertise, appeal...etc.

-How should they behave in or out of protest?

-What kind of a group they should build that wouldn't get affected from any kind of politcial bullshit?

-Is that possible? Has it ever been possible?


What is your argument? How should Black Lives Matter be/do/behave...etc...what is your dream about their protest as a white fucking citizen who gets annoyed by 'why feminism isn't about compliments or catcalls' videos or a series of posts one poster made around a general stance which you hate; in his case being a Social Justice Worker?

It's simple. BLM and SJW feminists who fall for psychological traps and the spooks of collectivism and identity politics are wrong on various levels and points. You are just making an irrelevant argument if this is your attempt at refuting anti-SJW criticism. You cannot refute a criticism by saying: "but... but you do not know the correct answer either HUR DUR". And the extreme arrogance which makes your posts barely readable is hilarious. You have no ground to dismiss anyone's arguments considering you never even address them you just whine about how basic they are because the problem is so hard to fix and they are giving no solutions, well neither are you, so if i bought your retarded logic i guess i would get to be a smug asshole against you too. You do not seem to understand that a way to help fix complex problems is by slowly shaving off the trash and establishing a baseline for intelligent discussion. SJWs are getting shaved off.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 17, 2016, 09:12:25 AM
Well... No. No you didn't. You explain why my position is, without identifying what my position is.
You seem to still severely misunderstanding and misrepresenting our position and points and until I know exactly what is going on in your head about what they are, not why they are, I will not continue. At this point I don't even know what you're discussing.



Sent from your mom.

welcome to trying to debate drunkenshoe, she goes in long ass irrelevant rants when she could just easily directly quote and refute your arguments since according to her diatribes they are so weak, but apparently it is beneath her to even try to address the word of her opponents she must do her arrogant armchair psychologist drivel which is hilarious because she says completely stupid shit which sometimes seems more like the product of a lack of reading comprehension.

Quote from: mauricio on August 18, 2016, 05:08:50 PM
welcome to trying to debate drunkenshoe, she goes in long ass irrelevant rants when she could just easily directly quote and refute your arguments since according to her diatribes they are so weak, but apparently it is beneath her to even try to address the word of her opponents she must do her arrogant armchair psychologist drivel which is hilarious because she says completely stupid shit which sometimes seems more like the product of a lack of reading comprehension.

She is well read. I think it's a mix between her stress from what is going on in Turkey right now and language barrier stuff.

She likes to analyze things. And I like that, it's just very frustrating when she is analyzing something that isn't there because she stubbornly is invested in her analysis.

Theres no upside to a prolonged argument with DS. I learned this lesson long ago. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong in such a scenario since the only possible outcome is that you bang your head against a wall and get insulted for your efforts.

I just make a statement, respond once to her overly aggressive response and then I call it quits. Theres nothing to be gained beyond that point. If she wants to take that as a victory for her corner, well we all live under some illusions.

Quote from: Duncle on August 18, 2016, 09:02:15 AM
SJWs and white supremacism are two sides of the same coin. The rational thing to do is to throw away the coin.                   

Well put.

SJWs have this terrible habit of asserting that the value of someone's worth or opinion depends upon their race/gender. As far as I can tell the ones who partake in this are doing something that is pretty much indistinguishable from any other kind of discrimination.

At the end of the day they seem to believe that some people are more equal then others.

Yes. I know, but let's just leave it and move on. No point in beating off a dead horse.

Quote from: Cocoa Beware on August 18, 2016, 10:57:02 PM
Well put.

SJWs have this terrible habit of asserting that the value of someone's worth or opinion depends upon their race/gender. As far as I can tell the ones partake in this are doing something that is pretty much indistinguishable from any other kind of discrimination.

At the end of the day they seem to believe that some people are more equal then others.

It's pretty simple really if an evil oppressor aka white cis male makes an argument on a socjus topic it is completely irrelevant to retort by pointing to his sexuality or race as somehow diminishing his argument. That is a textbook case of ad hominem. And if indeed his argument was so wrong because of his privileged status it would be no trouble for it to be refuted without raping the laws of debate with inane rants about identity.

Quote from: Duncle on August 18, 2016, 09:02:15 AM
The concept of race- that humanity is divided into biologically separate groups that represent sub-species of some kind- is a specifically modern western one. Its genesis lies in mid-eighteenth century developments in biological classification; both Buffon and Linnaeus wrote about race as a biological category. "Scientific" racism had its heyday in the period from 1850 to the end of WW2. The "scientific" racists produced elaborate hierarchies of allegedly iinferior and superior racial types, with pale-skinned Europeans ("whites") inevitably at the top, and dark-skinned Africans and Native Australians ("blacks") inevitably at the bottom.

Race proved to be a popular concept, and its sadly unsurprising that this was the case. The historical period in question was one in which pale-skinned Europeans were busily exploiting their dark-skinned slaves, and busily conquering lands inhabited by people with differently coloured skin. The discourse of "scientific" racism that people like de Gobineau articulated was a very convenient justification for their atrocious behaviour towards their differently-skin-coloured victims. And skin colour wasn't the only thing- Jews were also classified as a "race", giving allegedly "scientific" support to the anti-Semitism that had been endemic for centuries in western culture. And we all know how that one ended up.

Happily, modern Biology has pretty much discarded the concept of "race" completely- it turns out that "race" just isn't a useful way of looking at population genetics.

Yes, we all agree on this. Science is beautiful isn't it? It's also frustrating how that doesn't work with people.

The reality is, if you print what you wrote above on paper and hand out; write a manifesto based on modern science and race and attempt to enlighten people and manage to get suceed your voice being heard, get loud and organised, you and people working with you would be labeled as a radical SJWS immedietaly.

Because all that SJW groups, including all protest groups start with similar intentions, because tons of things are wrong in the society and people do not start this with a deadly ideology as people assume. This is your wrong and they have others. The difference is that yours is the mainstream reaction. The main system that doesn't want individual groups becaus ethey are a lot of pain in the ass. Doesn't matter if you want it or not, you fall into the authoritative side when you want to 'throw all the SJW out'. There is no other way to progress, but pick a freaking fight.

Nobody gets to change human narrative and create a paradigm by throwing groups out. Nobody, no culture has succeeded on this. Ever. You cannot create new human categories out of nowhere.

QuoteNow...one might think that progressives and others on the left would wish to do likewise and say something like "Race should not be a legitimate category in political discourse". After all, as well as being unscientific, "race" has a proven its toxicity over and over and over again. But no...some supposed left-wingers- in the absence of a better term I'll call them SJWs- actually buy into the whole idea of racial distinctions being fundamental. In other words: SJWs accept and promulgate the worldview that underlies racial supremacism, while simultaneously claiming to be fighting against it.

Note that I say that SJWs are supposedly left-wing. Personally, I view them as belonging much more on the authoritarian right. The difference between the SJWs and the KKK (and their ilk) seems to me to be this: the SJWs are pushing for priveleges for relatively marginalized groups; the KKK wants priveleges for the powerful pale-skinned majority. Thats an important distinction because it makes the KKK far more dangerous- their support base is potentially much bigger and stronger. But other than that, the two have a great deal in common: as well as a shared underlying worldview, they're both pro-censorship, anti-individualist (people are mainly seen in terms of group membership), pro-quotas, tolerant of racially-motivated violence from "their" side, and so on.

SJWs and white supremacism are two sides of the same coin. The rational thing to do is to throw away the coin.

There are two parties in the US. They are both extremely right wing and self servicing and American people simply cannot get rid of them. There is only one politics and two different sides with two 'menus' (abortion, immigration, religion...etc) designed for two basic characters pushing and pulling people around it and the rest is forced to vote for one.

And you are talking about a fantasy 'left' and trying to put these groups in some political context while there is nothing but just one. These groups exist in the US, and grew loud and 'violent' because there is no immediate way to fight against the current political mess. There is NO OPPOSITION in the USA. And in this political climate concerning the whole world everything is getting more extreme. These are reactive groups, not a part of a movement that is constructing an ideology or pushing a relavent one. It's a natural outcome. People have been creating their own opposition for a long time in the US. But also the global movement to the right, violent-extreme policies, the election season is making it worse and worse.

*The first biggest 'problem' with these groups that doesn't matter how much you can 'refute' their existence in theory, they are the natural result of different people or people with different cultures suffering various countless bullshit and social hierarchy in daily life and at some point getting organised to do something about it. Self realisation and identity. The fact that politicians would use them in every way doesn't change the fact that being a social primate and the undeniable social hierarchy colliding is the real trigger here. 

You cannot 'throw away the coin'. It's a bullshit, angry SJW slogan itself. Not to mention a delusional, invalid statement. You cannot 'cancel' or punish individuality. Can't be done. That's only possible by founding an authoritative system. Don't make the mistake of thinking a system of the sort would be different in the USA. America is a religious, extremely nationalist country, any movement of the sort; enforcing to silence these groups; or trying to 'correct' them would end up transforming the country in to a Thecoratic Empire in time, after a bloody mess. You cannot just give that constitution to people along with a culture and identity of 'you can do and be whatever you want; this is the land of freedom' policy and then try to take that back 'oops that was a mistake'. They are not able to do tha in the ME. USA? ROFL.

:arrow: In short, 'the people' and the most important element of the western civilisation; individuality are missing in your vision. You ignore practically the only difference between Western civilisation and others in your evaluation of this issue. You cannot solve this by treating it as an illness with writing an appropiate prescription. If we could enlighten people or reason with them making scientific explanations we wouldn't have these issues in the first place.

*The second big problem about SJW groups -or any protest groups for that matter- this is how we got progress for thousands of years and the only group of people that doesn't see them in this way; deny and refuse them; see them as something dangerous and to get rid off has always been the same group. It's the white race. Stomp your foot all you want. You are against these groups, because you don't agree they actually face the problems and issues they claim they do, because you, yourself don't while this is the whole issue and see them as an group of extremsts. Simple as this. the conviction that everything is actually OK somehow. It is not. Nowhere near.

Governments and states do not work for people. They are power zones that work to maintain a certain order to secure that power zone status and people are simply resources to them. This is not some 'evil' conspiracy against people, but the system of standardisation initiated by the French Revolution. Modern State.

The moment you have determine a standard, everything else that is different than that standard is a lower class; the other. Culture, race, gender, sexual oreintation, language...etc you name it. But you have to make standards. And people will push and pull these standards doesn't matter who likes it or not. Because that standard is always going to be the first class group. Note that this class is not an economical one, but needlessly to say it is pretty much connected. And people will always fight against that class to gain that status. ALWAYS. It's neither an American invention nor something about SJW groups only. You can try to throw them away all you want, they will always come back and get loud AND WILL make a change. That's how we arrive here at this point.

:arrow: Blaming racial SWJ groups with racial supremacism, ferminist groups with gender supremacism -I am making a generalisation, because it is safe to do- is exactly the same reaction that was given by monarchy and feodalite in the past -not that long ago. That's the category. There is no other one. And you cannot create one out of human narrative by yourself; it is equal to one person creating a paradigm by himself and define everything we know in terms so different we can't even understand.

There comes Cultural Marxism; the only available theory and system of criticism. Even when you criticise SJW and these movements you are included in it. If you are criticising authority and the social standard, the current political situation you live in  -doesn't mean to what end- you are standing on cultural marxism. It's not the moves or the pawns, it is the freaking board itself. Break that there is literally nothing else. LOL Not that is doable, just trying to make it simple.

America is not in a unique situation or dealing with an 'original problem', it has always been the same. It will happen and it will never stop. There will be groups reacting to SJWs and other groups reacting to them. This will go on and on and on and on. They are not going anywhere.

People reacting to this almost as if they are living in unique times of humanity. It's the normal way of life that has alway been. Nothing has changed.

Quote from: Nonsensei on August 18, 2016, 10:48:26 PM
Theres no upside to a prolonged argument with DS. I learned this lesson long ago. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong in such a scenario since the only possible outcome is that you bang your head against a wall and get insulted for your efforts.

I just make a statement, respond once to her overly aggressive response and then I call it quits. Theres nothing to be gained beyond that point. If she wants to take that as a victory for her corner, well we all live under some illusions.

Really, how was my response overly agressive? There wasn't anything you can engage in it either? I talked about something your wrote as a real life experience to put things in perspective so you could get what I think and respond.

I keep trying to communicate with you all this time and you don't try to engage anything I write, but you keep dismissing everything I write as wrong, toxic and agressive. For everything I write. EVERYTHING. You have never tried to get into a communication with me ever. You looked down down from your high horse and shaked your finger at me, this is what you have done. 

OK. You have it. This is the end of me trying to communicate with you. I won't read your posts or respond to it.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 06:49:42 AM
Really, how was my response overly agressive? There wasn't anything you can engage in it either? I talked about something your wrote as a real life experience to put things in perspective so you could get what I think and respond.

I keep trying to communicate with you all this time and you don't try to engage anything I write, but you keep dismissing everything I write as wrong, toxic and agressive. For everything I write. EVERYTHING. You have never tried to get into a communication with me ever. You looked down down from your high horse and shaked your finger at me, this is what you have done. 

OK. You have it. This is the end of me trying to communicate with you. I won't read your posts or respond to it.

Couldn't care less what you do. You won't accept any criticism, either of the content of your posts or the style of them. Do you realize that you have never once admitted being wrong about literally anything? Are you really that perfect?

Even Shiranu admits when he is wrong, even if it's in a backhanded way.

What exactly am I losing by your refusal to engage me? And that's what it is. An engagement, as if this were a battle and you're in it to win no matter what you have to say to do it. Throw in sneering condescension, change the nature of the argument, engage in a psychoanalysis of your opponent. There are no holds barred as long as it looks like you won in the end.

Why would I say anything to the loss of that sort of discourse other than 'good riddance'?

Quote from: Nonsensei on August 19, 2016, 08:12:35 AM
Couldn't care less what you do. You won't accept any criticism, either of the content of your posts or the style of them. Do you realize that you have never once admitted being wrong about literally anything? Are you really that perfect?

Even Shiranu admits when he is wrong, even if it's in a backhanded way.

What exactly am I losing by your refusal to engage me? And that's what it is. An engagement, as if this were a battle and you're in it to win no matter what you have to say to do it. Throw in sneering condescension, change the nature of the argument, engage in a psychoanalysis of your opponent. There are no holds barred as long as it looks like you won in the end.

Why would I say anything to the loss of that sort of discourse other than 'good riddance'?

I have admitted -like everyone else- being wrong about something many times in this forum. I have posted many self criticisms and stood openly vulnerable also apologised when necessary. Just like I did to GSO with in this very thread and in a different way admiting personal, emotional reaction to Pickel. But how would you know? What wuold change if you do?

I have never had this much of unjustified, empty hatred thrown at me by one person in my entire life.

Am I really that perfect? What the fuck does that mean? What does 'being perfect' mean? What does perfect mean? What does me, as a person have to do with anything, any issue we talk about in this forum, about politics, religion, culture...all those human right issues this and that?

I live in a muslim country under the fire of several terrorism groups. I don't know what is going to happen to me tomorrow. I am working my ass off to make a job work that literally has no value in the culture I live in and am I that perfect? What the fuck does that mean? Go fuck yourself you vile, dumb, damaged piece of shit.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 06:35:07 AM
Yes, we all agree on this. Science is beautiful isn't it? It's also frustrating how that doesn't work with people.

...

People reacting to this almost as if they are living in unique times of humanity. It's the normal way of life that has alway been. Nothing has changed.

Hmm...Well...First of all, thank you for spending so much time and effort replying to my post. The problem that I'm having with your post is that not all of it makes sense to me, and the parts that do make sense often seem to hinge on a misunderstanding of my position.

For example: I don't want to censor the speech of you or any other SJW, or for that matter anyone else (that includes Nazis, Stalinists and would-be Theocrats). What I would, however, like to see is a de-legitimization of racialist politics. So when someone says "racial group X should get special treatment", the reaction that I'd like to see would be something like " racial groups are a pseudo-scientific myth; political racial discourse is as toxic as it comes- your appeal to the concept of race has no place in politics".

For example: I don't want to do anything bad to people who are SJWs, but I would like them to jettison their ideology, which I frankly despise. I would also like to see non-authoritarian left-wingers disown the SJWs. As I said before, their ideological kinfolk are the white supremacists, not the Socialists, left-wing Anarchists, libertarian Marxists etc.

You seem to think that SJW-ism is the only ideology of resistance available to people who are being screwed by our socio-economic system. This is complete nonsense. You really need to read more widely. As a start, here are some search terms that you could try googling: Anarchism, Autonomism, Libertarian Marxism, Syndicalism, Situationism, Michel Foucault, Manuel DeLanda.

I'm sure that there are other points in your post that I ought to reply to, but frankly some  most of it is pretty incoherent.

Quote from: Duncle on August 19, 2016, 12:05:37 PM
Hmm...Well...First of all, thank you for spending so much time and effort replying to my post. The problem that I'm having with your post is that not all of it makes sense to me, and the parts that do make sense often seem to hinge on a misunderstanding of my position.

It's because she either 1: didn't fully read your post 2:  doesn't understand your post 3: miscommunication what she was trying to say on her end 4: some sort of  combination of 1, 2, and 3 because of language barrier issues or 5: she is intentionally twisting your point (I don't think it's 5)



Btw, @drunkenshoe, watch with the "piece of shit" and "go fuck yourself" stuff. No one has talked to you like that.

Quote from: Duncle on August 19, 2016, 12:05:37 PM
Hmm...Well...First of all, thank you for spending so much time and effort replying to my post. The problem that I'm having with your post is that not all of it makes sense to me, and the parts that do make sense often seem to hinge on a misunderstanding of my position.

Hmmm. "SJWs and white supremacism are two sides of the same coin. The rational thing to do is to throw away the coin." This is a very straight and extreme statement. It's hard to misunderstand.

After writing that you went along with this:

QuoteFor example: I don't want to censor the speech of you or any other SJW, or for that matter anyone else (that includes Nazis, Stalinists and would-be Theocrats). What I would, however, like to see is a de-legitimization of racialist politics. So when someone says "racial group X should get special treatment", the reaction that I'd like to see would be something like " racial groups are a pseudo-scientific myth; political racial discourse is as toxic as it comes- your appeal to the concept of race has no place in politics".

In my my incohorent post I wrote simply that you can't do that. Nobody or no authority can. Because you can't reason with masses of people with scientific explanations or with nuances of political propaganda available to them on how they reflect in their society. You are describing an ideal but nothing about human reality. That was the point of my incoherent post in simple English.

QuoteFor example: I don't want to do anything bad to people who are SJWs, but I would like them to jettison their ideology, which I frankly despise. I would also like to see non-authoritarian left-wingers disown the SJWs. As I said before, their ideological kinfolk are the white supremacists, not the Socialists, left-wing Anarchists, libertarian Marxists etc.

Well again, in my incoherent post I clearly said that SJW groups are not a part of any ideology, but that they are simply sub reactive groups to the situtaion in the country they exist in the last couple of decades.

QuoteYou seem to think that SJW-ism is the only ideology of resistance available to people who are being screwed by our socio-economic system. This is complete nonsense. You really need to read more widely.

No, I am saying they have nothing to do with any ideology at all in simple English. I don't think they are screwed at all. I specifically said that 'the class' I used has nothing to the with economics in fact, but of course related to.

QuoteAs a start, here are some search terms that you could try googling: Anarchism, Autonomism, Libertarian Marxism, Syndicalism, Situationism, Michel Foucault, Manuel DeLanda.

No, actually we are in the area of Frankfrut School altogether. None of the above is available as active movements in your country, assuming you are American. Corporate ruling is.

QuoteI'm sure that there are other points in your post that I ought to reply to, but frankly some  most of it is pretty incoherent.

If you can follow Foucault and understand the English language, you can perfectly follow what I wrote. Bothering to do it though something altogether different.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 19, 2016, 12:29:23 PM
Btw, @drunkenshoe, watch with the "piece of shit" and "go fuck yourself" stuff. No one has talked to you like that.

So if I don't use those words and style of expression, am I allowed to abuse and provoke the hell out of a poster with snarky remarks and out of nowhere insults to his every post as Nonsensei has been doing it to me? I promise it won't be uncouth.

Tell me, Pickel, if I promise to agree with the majority on the topic, will I get a cookie too? See, I need to ask this, because I have no idea as how does this go as I don't get anything written in this forum. It's interesting that suddenly I forgot the entire English language and everyone got very hard to understand with their opinions as opposed to my incoherent babblings.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 19, 2016, 02:15:45 PM
:rolleyes:

Meaning?

It's not that you agree/disagree at this point. It's that you flat out told him to go "fuck himself" and that he's a "piece of shit".

It's not nonsenesei's or anyone else's fault that they can't understand how you got to talking about whatever tangent you're talking about and arguing with them about things they didn't say or even imply.


I'm sorry that you can't see how unnecessarily argumentative you're being right now.

If you're really that stressed about things going on in your part of the world and you can't have a civil discussion, maybe you need to take another voluntary break from the forum, or at least avoid the topics that agitate your stress and bring out this hostile side of you.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 19, 2016, 02:27:13 PM
It's not that you agree/disagree at this point. It's that you flat out told him to go "fuck himself" and that he's a "piece of shit".

Yeah and he deserved that because he has been posting to me but not about anything I write for a long time now.

QuoteIt's not nonsenesei's or anyone else's fault that they can't understand how you got to talking about whatever tangent you're talking about and arguing with them about things they didn't say or even imply.

Oh that take Nonsensei out of that line. I have been in many conflicts with many different people in this forum. And his position has nothing to do with whatever is mine, but just simple hatred of someone online.

QuoteI'm sorry that you can't see how unnecessarily argumentative you're being right now.

It seems like you have been 'sorry' a lot lately about whoever doesn't agree with a certain point you like. Somehow you and a certain band solved everything and every opinion out of that is wrong and off base.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 19, 2016, 02:29:50 PM
If you're really that stressed about things going on in your part of the world and you can't have a civil discussion, maybe you need to take another voluntary break from the forum, or at least avoid the topics that agitate your stress and bring out this hostile side of you.

Oh you didn't just say that. Do you have any idea how offensive and unfair is that?

All the reason you are jacked about this topic is because of the political climate and elections is in your country. How can you say something like that  to me?

QuoteAll the reason you are jacked about this topic is because of the political climate and elections is in your country

I'm actually going to have to disagree with you there, I think this is something that has been lurking on the internet (and I guess in the minds of people in "the real world") for awhile now. His argument is basically the same as my mom has made for years; "How dare those blacks get so uppity and think they are special! They are just being spoiled and want freebees and to put 'the whiteman' in what they think is our place! It's really offensive to me!".

The ignorance of minority groups maybe, just maybe, having some reason to be pissed off is nothing new. It's just becoming more and more noticeable as minorities get more and more pissed off and think they have a right to be treated equally as well. White people and men just haven't had to vocally say it because it was always taken for granted and the norm.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 19, 2016, 02:42:54 PM
I'm actually going to have to disagree with you there, I think this is something that has been lurking on the internet (and I guess in the minds of people in "the real world") for awhile now. His argument is basically the same as my mom has made for years; "How dare those blacks get so uppity and think they are special! They are just being spoiled and want freebees and to put 'the whiteman' in what they think is our place! It's really offensive to me!".

The ignorance of minority groups maybe, just maybe, having some reason to be pissed off is nothing new. It's just becoming more and more noticeable as minorities get more and more pissed off and think they have a right to be treated equally as well. White people and men just haven't had to vocally say it because it was always taken for granted and the norm.

OK. Agreed. It makes sense, after all this is what we keep saying. But I think people here are pretty stressed out and nervous about the coming elections and they are not even aware of it. Seriously.

Having said that the group in this forum will have nothing changed in their lives doesn't matter who wins the elections. But then there is the social media and there is no limit to how much that affects people in the negative. For example they are all victims right now. That's their pyshcology. Like the Christians. :lol:

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 02:33:14 PM
I have been in many conflicts with many different people in this forum.

Yes. Yes you do. Maybe it's time to see if it has anything to do with how you conduct yourself, instead of pointing fingers at other people.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 02:36:04 PM
Oh you didn't just say that. Do you have any idea how offensive and unfair is that?

All the reason you are jacked about this topic is because of the political climate and elections is in your country. How can you say something like that  to me?

Again, you misrepresent someone's position.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 19, 2016, 02:53:15 PM
Yes. Yes you do. Maybe it's time to see if it has anything to do with how you conduct yourself, instead of pointing fingers at other people.

Again, you misrepresent someone's position.

I was talking about the 6-7 years I have been the member of this forum. I am not in a position that my integrity would be in question, Pickel.

You have taken a side and trying to keep me draw away from the forum with awfully condescending and offensive remarks -oh but you are so polite about it I'll give you that- because I don't agree with you on this topic or say something you like. This is as simple as this.

Last time I was in conflict with someone that poster was Nonsensei and the other was baronvonrort. Are you aware of that, right?

How is that I am in a position to get some warning that I should get some break other than you just don't like me here? You realise that this is a public forum, right? It's not anybody's vanilla safe space. It's a public forum.

 

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 03:03:37 PM
I was talking about the 6-7 years I have been the member of this forum. I am not in a position that my integrity would be in question, Pickel.

People change and so do you.

Quote

You have taken a side and trying to keep me draw away from the forum with awfully condescending and offensive remarks -oh but you are so polite about it I'll give you that- because I don't agree with you on this topic or say something you like. This is as simple as this.

Last time I was in conflict with someone that poster was Nonsensei and the other was baronvonrort. Are you aware of that, right?

How is that I am in a position to get some warning that I should get some break other than you just don't like me here? You realise that this is a public forum, right? It's not anybody's vanilla safe space. It's a public forum.

 

What I am addressing right now is your hostile insults to nonsensei. His position aside, we cannot have that.

Jump to the conclusion that I dislike you, if you want, I don't, but you can assume whatever you want.

I really don't care about past conflicts or how they came about, who started what. It's not important right now and it doesn't excuse your recent behavior in this thread.

Call my or nonsensei's comments in this thread condescending and offensive if you want, they aren't, but feel free to.


Again. This isn't about this being a "safe space". You know I want differing opinions and views here... probably more than most other members and mods. The issue is when someone is misrepresenting someone's words, intentionally or not. If it's unintentionally, like I believe you are doing it, at least have the courtesy of looking at what the person said again and adjust. You may still disagree, but at least you can have your discussion about your disagreement correctly. Shiranu caught on with that. I believe you can too. If you can't, I advise you take a break from this topic until you get a level head.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 19, 2016, 03:13:25 PM
People change and so do you.

What I am addressing right now is your hostile insults to nonsensei. His position aside, we cannot have that.


Jump to the conclusion that I dislike you, if you want, I don't, but you can assume whatever you want.

I really don't care about past conflicts or how they came about, who started what. It's not important right now and it doesn't excuse your recent behavior in this thread.

Call my or nonsensei's comments in this thread condescending and offensive if you want, they aren't, but feel free to.


Again. This isn't about this being a "safe space". You know I want differing opinions and views here... probably more than most other members and mods. The issue is when someone is misrepresenting someone's words, intentionally or not. If it's unintentionally, like I believe you are doing it, at least have the courtesy of looking at what the person said again and adjust. You may still disagree, but at least you can have your discussion about your disagreement correctly. Shiranu caught on with that. I believe you can too. If you can't, I advise you take a break from this topic until you get a level head.

Steve, somebody has been intentionally provoking me for some time, while I have been trying to communicate with him and when I get pissed off to him and give a reaction, you are trying to punish me. Probably he knows what reaction I would give and this is a game for him...could care less. But I haven't done anything intentionally out of nowhere. And that's the point. But he did.

I don't think you dislike me, but disagree with me and annoyed with me because of my opinions. You are a human being and this is normal. And yes it is condescending to tell someone that they are not fit to comment on some world issue because there has been a coup attempt in their country. You have been offensive and unfair.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 03:29:47 PM
Steve, somebody has been intentionally provoking me for some time, while I have been trying to communicate with him and when I get pissed off to him and give a reaction, you are trying to punish me. Probably he knows what reaction I would give and this is a game for him...could care less. But I haven't done anything intentionally out of nowhere. And that's the point.

I don't think you dislike me, but disagree with me and annoyed with me because of my opinions. You are a human being and this is normal. And yes it is condescending to tell someone that they are not fit to comment on some world issue because there has been a coup attempt in their country. You have been offensive and unfair.

I've been offensive an unfair... hmm.... interesting.

I am not annoyed by your opinions, or that I disagree with you. I am annoyed, and I think I can vouch for a few other people in this thread, that we're annoyed because you are arguing about something that isn't even on topic with our point. Practically goal-post moving. I don't care if someone disagrees, but at least disagree about the same topic.

If someone is provoking you, be an adult and address it civilly. I don't think in this case anyone was, but even if they were, it's not an excuse to start telling someone "go fuck yourself" or calling them a "piece of shit".


And whatever the case is, issues in your country or whatever, you seem to be more stressed than when it wasn't as bad. You're getting offended by things that aren't even jabs at you and retaliating with hostility more than usual. It really doesn't matter what the reason for that is, but I am trying to have some sympathy for your situation and why you are acting so hostile.

Or are you the only one that can analyze things?

Let's take out the issues going on in your country if you want. Stop with the insults. No more calling people a "piece of shit" no more telling people to "go fuck themselves". No more insults from you period.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 19, 2016, 03:42:28 PM
I've been offensive an unfair... hmm.... interesting.

I am not annoyed by your opinions, or that I disagree with you. I am annoyed, and I think I can vouch for a few other people in this thread, that we're annoyed because you are arguing about something that isn't even on topic with our point. Practically goal-post moving. I don't care if someone disagrees, but at least disagree about the same topic.

If someone is provoking you, be an adult and address it civilly. I don't think in this case anyone was, but even if they were, it's not an excuse to start telling someone "go fuck yourself" or calling them a "piece of shit".


And whatever the case is, issues in your country or whatever, you seem to be more stressed than when it wasn't as bad. You're getting offended by things that aren't even jabs at you and retaliating with hostility more than usual. It really doesn't matter what the reason for that is, but I am trying to have some sympathy for your situation and why you are acting so hostile.

Or are you the only one that can analyze things?

Let's take out the issues going on in your country if you want. Stop with the insults. No more calling people a "piece of shit" no more telling people to "go fuck themselves". No more insults from you period.

I am not aware that I am acting hostile. I'm really not. I apologise.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 03:48:22 PM

I am not aware that I am acting hostile. I'm really not. I apologise.

Thank you. Please be aware in the future.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 02:10:11 PM
In my my incohorent post I wrote simply that you can't do that. Nobody or no authority can. Because you can't reason with masses of people with scientific explanations or with nuances of political propaganda available to them on how they reflect in their society. You are describing an ideal but nothing about human reality. That was the point of my incoherent post in simple English.

Anti-Semitism used to be considered a legitimate part of political discourse. It isn't now.

QuoteWell again, in my incoherent post I clearly said that SJW groups are not a part of any ideology, but that they are simply sub reactive groups to the situtaion in the country they exist in the last couple of decades.


No, I am saying they have nothing to do with any ideology at all in simple English. I don't think they are screwed at all. I specifically said that 'the class' I used has nothing to the with economics in fact, but of course related to.

No, actually we are in the area of Frankfrut School altogether. None of the above is available as active movements in your country, assuming you are American. Corporate ruling is.

Okay...so here's one of the things that confuses me about your posts. You say that the SWJ movement isn't ideological; then you say that we are in Frankfurt School country, and that the active movement is linked to/ informed by the Frankfurt School. So which is it? Or do you mean something else entirely?

From my own experience of interacting with SJWs, I'd say that Postmodernism (Derrida, Kristeva etc) is at least as important an influence on their thinking as Habermas and friends. I'm not a Marxist, and therefore am not a fan of Critical Theory.

QuoteIf you can follow Foucault and understand the English language, you can perfectly follow what I wrote. Bothering to do it though something altogether different.

I really like Foucault, especially the later stuff- Discipline and Punish most of all. And yes, I do understand English (in fact I am English, and live in England). I couldn't follow much of your previous post. This one is nice and clear.

DS - most people here haven't read Kant's Prologema ... and aren't interested in Continental philosophy, but that new English guy seems so.  Go easy on the rest of us, or I will start quoting Zen koans ;-)

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 19, 2016, 09:08:00 AM
I have admitted -like everyone else- being wrong about something many times in this forum. I have posted many self criticisms and stood openly vulnerable also apologised when necessary. Just like I did to GSO with in this very thread and in a different way admiting personal, emotional reaction to Pickel. But how would you know? What wuold change if you do?

I have never had this much of unjustified, empty hatred thrown at me by one person in my entire life.

Am I really that perfect? What the fuck does that mean? What does 'being perfect' mean? What does perfect mean? What does me, as a person have to do with anything, any issue we talk about in this forum, about politics, religion, culture...all those human right issues this and that?

I live in a muslim country under the fire of several terrorism groups. I don't know what is going to happen to me tomorrow. I am working my ass off to make a job work that literally has no value in the culture I live in and am I that perfect? What the fuck does that mean? Go fuck yourself you vile, dumb, damaged piece of shit.

I don't hate you DS. I never have and I never will, if only because I don't even feel that powerfully negative about anyone in real life let alone on the internet. I've never been threatened by your opinions or your arguments. The biggest source of frustration comes not from what you say but how you choose to say it.

Your biggest problem is that you cannot distinguish criticism from hatred. If I say something to criticize you, its an attack and you respond like its an attack. You will probably respond to my stating this as if it were an attack.

If there's any hatred here its from you to me. I've never said to you the sort of things you have said to me. Not just in this thread, but in general. I cant even count the number of things you have labeled me as over the years. You act like you're the victim here, but the reality is whenever we find each other on opposite sides of a topic - which is 100% of the time - its you that starts in on me more often than not. You say something, I respond to it, and the next thing I know you're trying to verbally rip my balls out through my throat. You respond like I personally slapped you in the face rather than posted something to you on the internet.

I couldn't help but notice that while Pickel managed to get you to apologize to him, you never even came close to apologizing to me. You know, the person you actually called a "vile, dumb, damaged piece of shit"?  Its not really a surprise. You don't think you did anything wrong by calling me those things. If it werent for the forum rules against personal attacks you wouldn't have even apologized to Pickel.

But its fine. Unlike you, I have tougher skin than that. Swear at me. Call me all the names you like. It has no effect on me and makes you seem irrational.

Its a shame, because somewhere behind that wall of righteous fury is an intelligent woman. But I'll never meet her. She only talks normally to people who agree with her. Everyone else is trash.

Quote from: Nonsensei on August 19, 2016, 10:55:10 PM
I don't hate you DS. I never have and I never will, if only because I don't even feel that powerfully negative about anyone in real life let alone on the internet. I've never been threatened by your opinions or your arguments. The biggest source of frustration comes not from what you say but how you choose to say it.

Your biggest problem is that you cannot distinguish criticism from hatred. If I say something to criticize you, its an attack and you respond like its an attack. You will probably respond to my stating this as if it were an attack.

If there's any hatred here its from you to me. I've never said to you the sort of things you have said to me. Not just in this thread, but in general. I cant even count the number of things you have labeled me as over the years. You act like you're the victim here, but the reality is whenever we find each other on opposite sides of a topic - which is 100% of the time - its you that starts in on me more often than not. You say something, I respond to it, and the next thing I know you're trying to verbally rip my balls out through my throat. You respond like I personally slapped you in the face rather than posted something to you on the internet.

I couldn't help but notice that while Pickel managed to get you to apologize to him, you never even came close to apologizing to me. You know, the person you actually called a "vile, dumb, damaged piece of shit"?  Its not really a surprise. You don't think you did anything wrong by calling me those things. If it werent for the forum rules against personal attacks you wouldn't have even apologized to Pickel.

But its fine. Unlike you, I have tougher skin than that. Swear at me. Call me all the names you like. It has no effect on me and makes you seem irrational.

Its a shame, because somewhere behind that wall of righteous fury is an intelligent woman. But I'll never meet her. She only talks normally to people who agree with her. Everyone else is trash.

pretty much this is how I feel too. Last year i attempted various times to engage her in good faith and after getting labeled and psychoanalyzed by her and watching her do it to other people in posts dripping in arrogance and then complete lack of self-awareness when called on it is just... I can't deal with that level of bullshit. So I'm sorry to the mods if I just contributed to the flame war with my angry posts in this thread. I will try harder to be chill.

Quote from: Baruch on August 19, 2016, 07:28:24 PM
DS - most people here haven't read Kant's Prologema ... and aren't interested in Continental philosophy, but that new English guy seems so.  Go easy on the rest of us, or I will start quoting Zen koans ;-)

Actually, my background is very much in Analytical/Anglo-American Philosophy rather than Continental Philosophy. Having said that, I have read quite a bit of the Continental stuff. Kant really belongs to both traditions, since the split in Philosophy happened after Kant.

Quote from: Duncle on August 20, 2016, 04:48:58 AM
Actually, my background is very much in Analytical/Anglo-American Philosophy rather than Continental Philosophy. Having said that, I have read quite a bit of the Continental stuff. Kant really belongs to both traditions, since the split in Philosophy happened after Kant.

DS is a follower of Habermas, so her thinking is quite alien to Anglophones ;-)  I like me some Zizich myself.  Him and Nietzsche.

Quote from: Nonsensei on August 19, 2016, 10:55:10 PM
If it werent for the forum rules against personal attacks you wouldn't have even apologized to Pickel.

Unfortunately, I feel the same way about that apology.

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 20, 2016, 01:39:34 PM
Unfortunately, I feel the same way about that apology.

Yeah, I would say that is accurate about 80%+ of the time here.

Quote from: Shiranu on August 20, 2016, 01:52:31 PM
Yeah, I would say that is accurate about 80%+ of the time here.

I'd say less than that. Only a few select members deliver empty apologies for only the reason that it's breaking the rules. Maybe you think it's a higher percentage because you're one of the people that has frequented a hollow apology.

You feel wrong about the apology. It was also a general one. If it was formality, it would be a long post and it would go on with buts an explanations. I just said that I wasn't really aware how hostile I appealed -because I wasn't- and apologised. You know what I thought writing that post, "OK. I made a mess and I should get out of this thread asap and not post anything more". That's all.

I reflexively apologised GSO at the beginning of the thread the moment I realised I said something wrong. Is that a reaction of someone who refuses to apologise whatever happens?

Quote from: Nonsensei on August 19, 2016, 10:55:10 PM
I don't hate you DS. I never have and I never will, if only because I don't even feel that powerfully negative about anyone in real life let alone on the internet. I've never been threatened by your opinions or your arguments. The biggest source of frustration comes not from what you say but how you choose to say it.

Your biggest problem is that you cannot distinguish criticism from hatred. If I say something to criticize you, its an attack and you respond like its an attack. You will probably respond to my stating this as if it were an attack.

If there's any hatred here its from you to me. I've never said to you the sort of things you have said to me. Not just in this thread, but in general. I cant even count the number of things you have labeled me as over the years. You act like you're the victim here, but the reality is whenever we find each other on opposite sides of a topic - which is 100% of the time - its you that starts in on me more often than not. You say something, I respond to it, and the next thing I know you're trying to verbally rip my balls out through my throat. You respond like I personally slapped you in the face rather than posted something to you on the internet.

I couldn't help but notice that while Pickel managed to get you to apologize to him, you never even came close to apologizing to me. You know, the person you actually called a "vile, dumb, damaged piece of shit"?  Its not really a surprise. You don't think you did anything wrong by calling me those things. If it werent for the forum rules against personal attacks you wouldn't have even apologized to Pickel.

But its fine. Unlike you, I have tougher skin than that. Swear at me. Call me all the names you like. It has no effect on me and makes you seem irrational.

Its a shame, because somewhere behind that wall of righteous fury is an intelligent woman. But I'll never meet her. She only talks normally to people who agree with her. Everyone else is trash.

Yes, I shouldn't have called you any of those things in this thread or any other. And you shouldn't have said a lot of things to me either.

Have you aplogised to me when you called me 'man castrating cunt', 'feminazi', 'man hating bitch' several times -<these are your introductions to me in this forum and your way of communication for a long time before your break-  'toxic', 'harmful and posionous to this forum', 'narcissistic little princess', 'insufferable know it all', 'megolamaniac'...many various other insults, constant snarky remarks at anything I wrote just because I criticised American culture and your recation to SJW in general topics? No, you haven't. You didn't even think of it. Actually you didn't even have to 'apologise' but just go with 'I said some things before, let's forget about it, OK?' If you had, you'd be shocked to see what kind of response that would meet with.

And now you keep acting as if you are some victim of an evil character without any provocation and ill treatment at your side. This is not correct. You are not honest about it.

No, we don't have opposing opinions on many topics, Nonsensei, we actually agree on most of it and you are not even aware of that. I don't agree on many topics with posters I have a 'nomal' relationship in the forum.

If you had shown a bit of benign attitude towards me, you'd get that. I'm not your enemy. Not even remotely close.

This thread is headed for great places, I can tell.

(http://www.greenplumbingnj.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Toilet-Flushing.jpg)

Quote from: PickelledEggs on August 20, 2016, 02:12:45 PM
I'd say less than that. Only a few select members deliver empty apologies for only the reason that it's breaking the rules. Maybe you think it's a higher percentage because you're one of the people that has frequented a hollow apology.

Your right, it probably is... the people who should be apologizing don't even have the courtesy of putting out a hollow one, they just disappear and pretend they were never wrong.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 21, 2016, 05:53:02 AM
You feel wrong about the apology. It was also a general one. If it was formality, it would be a long post and it would go on with buts an explanations. I just said that I wasn't really aware how hostile I appealed -because I wasn't- and apologised. You know what I thought writing that post, "OK. I made a mess and I should get out of this thread asap and not post anything more". That's all.

I reflexively apologised GSO at the beginning of the thread the moment I realised I said something wrong. Is that a reaction of someone who refuses to apologise whatever happens?

You know what? I care less about apologies than I do about repeat behavior. Apologies are nice, but more of a guarantee that it will not happen again is the thing I don't know if I can get from you. You apologized after a page of two of either being unwilling or unable to understand what the issue was with what you were saying. And I could tell... I had a feeling that you still didn't understand the problem and your part in it.

e.g.

Quote from: drunkenshoe on August 21, 2016, 06:20:37 AM
Yes, I shouldn't have called you any of those things in this thread or any other. And you shouldn't have said a lot of things to me either.

Have you aplogised to me when you called me 'man castrating cunt', 'feminazi', 'man hating bitch' several times -<these are your introductions to me in this forum and your way of communication for a long time before your break-  'toxic', 'harmful and posionous to this forum', 'narcissistic little princess', 'insufferable know it all', 'megolamaniac'...many various other insults, constant snarky remarks at anything I wrote just because I criticised American culture and your recation to SJW in general topics? No, you haven't. You didn't even think of it. Actually you didn't even have to 'apologise' but just go with 'I said some things before, let's forget about it, OK?' If you had, you'd be shocked to see what kind of response that would meet with.

And now you keep acting as if you are some victim of an evil character without any provocation and ill treatment at your side. This is not correct. You are not honest about it.

No, we don't have opposing opinions on many topics, Nonsensei, we actually agree on most of it and you are not even aware of that. I don't agree on many topics with posters I have a 'nomal' relationship in the forum.

If you had shown a bit of benign attitude towards me, you'd get that. I'm not your enemy. Not even remotely close.

Stop. I'm tired of this. You continually show that you are not aware of how you conduct yourself with other people and you continually throw in the kitchen sink from past engagements with people. Nonsensei didn't say any of those things to you in this thread. Not "femenazi", not "cunt", not "man hating bitch". You are attempting to bring in past things that have since been dealt with and already finished.
Nonsenei was benign with you in this thread, you on the other hand were not.

Interestingly enough, this behavior is narcissistic in nature. Bringing up past things to divert blame from yourself. That is what you've been doing in this thread for almost the entirety of it. Including your most recent post.

I will go back to the thing you said

QuoteI have been in many conflicts with many different people in this forum.

You need to start seeing your role in this. Everyone else has figured it out except you at this point.  Be aware of how you conduct yourself with others, because it is toxic and hostile a lot of the time, even when the other people are not. And it is narcissistic at times. And you do take what people say and disregard what their communicate to argue something completely different. Most people by now just leave the conversation because they know discussing something with you will go no-where, unless they are discussing how they agree with you, which in a different way the conversation goes no where.

Be aware of yourself, because you are not as of now. If you can't, and you continue this and do this in the future, especially since it happens so frequently with you, I will have no choice but to implement a ban.

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on August 21, 2016, 07:57:25 AM
This thread is headed for great places, I can tell.

(http://www.greenplumbingnj.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Toilet-Flushing.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/ukFcw0F.jpg)
Bingo.

OK. You can ignore my pm.