As many of you know, my atheism is very closeted. And so are my political views. I believe I've mentioned in the past how I am a lone liberal in an office full of conservatives. As a rule I do not discuss religion or politics at work with anyone for obvious reasons. I mean I'm sure they all suspect my proclivities, but so long as I don't discuss them openly, we can all continue to pretend they don't exist.
So it was with some distress that I found myself treading into the waters of discussing Trump and politics in general with my very conservative direct report over lunch the other day. We get along great and have lots of mutual respect so the conversation remained very cordial despite my trepidation. But I have to admit, once I was in it, I stayed in it because I was fascinated to be able to pick the brain of one of them for a bit.
And what I learned was that many of his beliefs and leanings were very rational and logical and understandable. But a fair amount of what he felt was supported by complete misinformation. I.e. the subject of immigration. His genuine belief is that almost all illegal aliens receive government funded free health care (so far as I can find, a select few cities in California do this). He also genuinely believes that all resident aliens enjoy several years (7 I believe he said) of complete tax amnesty (haven't researched this one at all yet). Meaning the turban wearing small business owner I buy my bourbon from does not pay a cent in taxes in his world. Why? Because he wears a turban and therefore wasn't born to parents who were born here.
Needless to say, the conversation was very eye opening for me. This is a man whom I have a vast amount of respect for. But some of his beliefs are WAY over the top in terms of reality. However the thing I came away wondering was not how he could come to believe such over the top nonsense. Rather what I came away wondering was just how much of what I'm fed through the tailored tapestry of media that I choose to consume is equally over the top in terms of reality.
He's not a stupid guy. But he believes what he believes in large part due to the custom tailored suite of media he is able to choose to expose himself to these days. I am guilty of the same crime. I think most of us are guilty of the same crime. So it makes me wonder, are us liberals really as right as we think we are? How much of what we think we know (and therefore base our belief structure on) is really true? What say you?
Its interesting to me because I was once well entrenched in the conservative camp. If you talk to conservative people you might discover their information sources are different than yours. I expect not as many conservatives as liberals read Huffpost, for example, or any of the many more liberal information sources on the internet. Broadcast media is owned media and frankly not a trustworthy source. And I suspect the people that are conservative are more inclined to watch broadcast media than seek out other sources on the internet.
I spent years debunking Mormonism and in so doing opened up a whole new set of information sources. It is very telling that the church does everything it can to keep people from those sources. I got in trouble for reading what was deemed "forbidden" material. But the thought that incurred for my logical brain was- if factual information can damage your testimony, what is the real value of your testimony? That one question became the mantra for my search.
I get emailed propaganda links from some of my office co-workers (including the big boss) regularly. There is no shortage of click bait for them out there. I've also had discussions with my underling and others about how Fox News is the ONLY source that can be trusted to give the real truth on any topic. We joke about it. They believe it. For reals. These are not stupid people. Which again, makes me wonder how much of what I consume is bullshit.
Quote from: Johan on July 19, 2016, 10:44:16 PMSo it makes me wonder, are us liberals really as right as we think we are? How much of what we think we know (and therefore base our belief structure on) is really true? What say you?
It's hard to say. Russia could be fictional for all I know. It could be a completely uninhibited part of the world and everything related to it has been staged as part of an elaborate hoax. I've never been there, so I wouldn't know the difference.
Solipsism notwithstanding, I think that the facts on the ground do generally favor Dem claims over Republican claims, though I could see the Dems being wrong about things fairly often. Not many examples of specifically Democrat fumbles come readily to mind besides predictions that Trump wouldn't secure the nomination and some policy specifics. But that's nothing compared to well-known Republican whoppers. It's pretty safe to say that Obama is not a Kenyan muslim in league with Al Qaeda. Global warming is not a hoax cooked up by the Chinese. Evolution isn't discredited pseudoscience. The Founders didn't establish America as a Christian country. God didn't write the constitution nor does God punish America for allowing gays to marry by sending tornadoes our way.
Republicans have largely shamelessly adopted truthiness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness) as their guiding star, which has given them a reputation for living in a world all their own. However, this problem affects far more than just them. Society at large risks falling into post-truth politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-truth_politics) (though unintentionally/intentionally untrue statements have long been a part of politics, a reliance on narratives utterly ungrounded in reality and the ready dissemination of these narratives in online echo chambers is a relatively new thing)
Though I could be wrong about this, liberals tend to be more self-critical; more prone to doubt. I would be very interested in seeing a thread identical to this play out on a conservative forum. My hypothesis is that expressing some skepticism towards republican claims wouldn't be terribly common over there.
Most of the difference between the two political philosophies lies in values, not facts. Is abortion wrong? What should the role of government be? How should gun ownership be regulated, if at all? Is an open economy or a mixed market better? There are no objective answers to these questions. Both sides have foundational values that guide their appraisal of any issue and it's impossible to objectively decide which values are correct and which are incorrect. The debate rages on.
Quote from: Johan on July 19, 2016, 10:44:16 PM
As many of you know, my atheism is very closeted. And so are my political views. I believe I've mentioned in the past how I am a lone liberal in an office full of conservatives. As a rule I do not discuss religion or politics at work with anyone for obvious reasons. I mean I'm sure they all suspect my proclivities, but so long as I don't discuss them openly, we can all continue to pretend they don't exist.
So it was with some distress that I found myself treading into the waters of discussing Trump and politics in general with my very conservative direct report over lunch the other day. We get along great and have lots of mutual respect so the conversation remained very cordial despite my trepidation. But I have to admit, once I was in it, I stayed in it because I was fascinated to be able to pick the brain of one of them for a bit.
And what I learned was that many of his beliefs and leanings were very rational and logical and understandable. But a fair amount of what he felt was supported by complete misinformation. I.e. the subject of immigration. His genuine belief is that almost all illegal aliens receive government funded free health care (so far as I can find, a select few cities in California do this). He also genuinely believes that all resident aliens enjoy several years (7 I believe he said) of complete tax amnesty (haven't researched this one at all yet). Meaning the turban wearing small business owner I buy my bourbon from does not pay a cent in taxes in his world. Why? Because he wears a turban and therefore wasn't born to parents who were born here.
Needless to say, the conversation was very eye opening for me. This is a man whom I have a vast amount of respect for. But some of his beliefs are WAY over the top in terms of reality. However the thing I came away wondering was not how he could come to believe such over the top nonsense. Rather what I came away wondering was just how much of what I'm fed through the tailored tapestry of media that I choose to consume is equally over the top in terms of reality.
He's not a stupid guy. But he believes what he believes in large part due to the custom tailored suite of media he is able to choose to expose himself to these days. I am guilty of the same crime. I think most of us are guilty of the same crime. So it makes me wonder, are us liberals really as right as we think we are? How much of what we think we know (and therefore base our belief structure on) is really true? What say you?
Fact is - neither side tells the truth ... You've got to look at both and then hope to find somebody else who's somewhere in the middle - and then yet other people who are at the extremes. Then you've got to take all of that and toss it together and hope to make a cocktail that makes some sort of sense. ALL sources are biased in one way or another. ALL. Especially the ones that claim not to be.
I wish I could count high enough to remember all the asswipes who have told me that every immigrant is automatically given a convenience store by the government the minute they arrive in the US..
People actually believe that bullshit..I wish I was making this up, but there are thousands of people who believe that the moment someone enters the united states (legally or illegally) the US government GIVES them a free convienience store.
So listen up anyone who doesn't live in the US and wants a free convienience store just cross the border or ocean and a very nice guy in a black suit and tie will be waiting for you with the keys to a store in which you get to sell all the stolen merchandise you can lay your hands on ABSOLUTELY FREE! Of course there are a few kickers.. You have to have a nasty disposition, not like people at all, have beedy eyes and speak almost no English except for the phrase You fucking steal from me! Oh yeah..you must not be able to correctly make change for a dollar.. That's it! By the way..you get to pick which shitty part of town you get your free store in..
QuoteAnd what I learned was that many of his beliefs and leanings were very rational and logical and understandable. But a fair amount of what he felt was supported by complete misinformation.
I hate to say it but, "Politics is perception." While that has become little more than a trite platitude, it is no less true than it was when whoever it was first said it. The point is that perception has little to do with accurate information. It's perception. And for many people, that is indistinguishable from truth.
I have known some immigrants and some illegal immigrants. None of them are on easy street. One of the legal immigrants was an x-ray technician from El Salvador that went through years of schooling to get his education. An illegal that worked as a cook for years to pay for his education. My neighbor kitty corner in the mobile home park is a construction foreman. His wife manages a new Hispanic restaurant after working for years as a waitress and then cook at another restaurant.
Comment my friend from Colombia made when I joked about taking siestas: It's because they are tired from continually working 2 shifts. I've been to Mexico in late August. It is hot enough to fry eggs on the sidewalk at 2 PM. You go into a store (Hermocillo) it is so hot people fight each other for space in front of fans or air conditioners. Good time to take a siesta. Immigrants get a bad rap imo.
Somebody needs to make a movie about what these people go through and struggle through to get somewhere in the U.S.. Consider that with all that, their life and opportunities are better here than the country they left.
Many Americans seem to have no bullshit detector at all. They seem to just accept whatever BS is shoved at them by those who want them to fear and hate, as a means to power.
This isn't the direct fault of the media, but a fault of our collective attitude towards education in this country. Anyone of my generation who wanted to learn was considered to be a geek or a nerd, and bullied unmercifully. It'd be easier for a guy to be named Sue than to get the label of 'nerd.' It isn't so much that people aren't smart, but more that they're afraid to be seen to be smart. They're afraid to be seen to be against the common zeitgeist of the communities. So I guess they never acquire any BS detection skills, 'cause they tend to just go along with the prevailing BS.
Quote from: Unbeliever on July 21, 2016, 07:11:37 PM
Many Americans seem to have no bullshit detector at all. They seem to just accept whatever BS is shoved at them by those who want them to fear and hate, as a means to power.
This isn't the direct fault of the media, but a fault of our collective attitude towards education in this country. Anyone of my generation who wanted to learn was considered to be a geek or a nerd, and bullied unmercifully. It'd be easier for a guy to be named Sue than to get the label of 'nerd.' It isn't so much that people aren't smart, but more that they're afraid to be seen to be smart. They're afraid to be seen to be against the common zeitgeist of the communities. So I guess they never acquire any BS detection skills, 'cause they tend to just go along with the prevailing BS.
If ever this was true, it's now. I am gobsmacked at the number of friends (almost all of them) from either camp who regularly regurgitate things on Facebook that are verifiably false. I'd say that my facebook feed is about 40% right wing, 60% left wing.
Are we a nation of complete idiots? Are we a species of complete idiots?
Quote from: marom1963 on July 20, 2016, 05:00:38 AM
Fact is - neither side tells the truth ... You've got to look at both and then hope to find somebody else who's somewhere in the middle - and then yet other people who are at the extremes. Then you've got to take all of that and toss it together and hope to make a cocktail that makes some sort of sense. ALL sources are biased in one way or another. ALL. Especially the ones that claim not to be.
What he said!
People have their beliefs and values and they agree with information that support their existing beliefs and ignore information that contradicts. Misinformation is a problem but keep in mind people are not passive receptacles of information. If misinformation didn't have a ring of truth people would not believe it.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on July 22, 2016, 07:50:32 AM
People have their beliefs and values and they agree with information that support their existing beliefs and ignore information that contradicts. Misinformation is a problem but keep in mind people are not passive receptacles of information. If misinformation didn't have a ring of truth people would not believe it.
The bigger problem to me- and more disturbing one- is when people buy into misinformation and amplify it. Like antivaxxers trumpeting bogus scientific information, or antiabortion foes attacking Planned Parenthood employees.
I apologize if I have shared this before.
Why People "Fly from Facts"- Research shows the appeal of untestable beliefs and how they lead to a polarized society
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-people-fly-from-facts/
So after examining the power of untestable beliefs, what have we learned about dealing with human psychology? We’ve learned that bias is a disease and to fight it we need a healthy treatment of facts and education. We find that when facts are injected into the conversation, the symptoms of bias become less severe. But, unfortunately, we’ve also learned that facts can only do so much. To avoid coming to undesirable conclusions, people can fly from the facts and use other tools in their deep belief protecting toolbox.
I read the article awhile ago, and I agree, it is spot on.
(http://i.imgur.com/i4UIk3R.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/6jdJVo5.png)
And so it goes.....
Both the Carter and Bush Jr administrations didn't protect US embassies enough. Similarly the Obama administration (not Clinton administration) failed to protect the ambassador while he was carrying out a Black ops. Blame or not blame ... but mistakes happen ... and usually the cover-up is about not admitting incompetence.