This is obviously my first post here and really anxious to see how some of you might reply. First, I am not actually an atheist. Second, I am not a Bible thumping Christian either though I wasted 12 good years of my life doing just that. I definitely do not believe in any man-made religions or their views on God.
I consider myself something of an agnostic but a 100% believer that there is some kind of higher power or force. I really don't have any doubts about that. Let me get to my question which is only directed at hardcore atheists who are firm in their belief that we and everything came from whatever but not an intelligent being or force. It is not directed to agnostics.
You fly to a faraway planet like Jupiter. You get out of your spaceship and there before you is a brand new Mercedes Benz with a jamming stereo system. How did it get there? The way I see it, you only have two choices:
1. It evolved there from nothing.
2. It was built and put there by an intelligent being or force.
Which one do you believe it is? Now, reverse the location of where you are. Instead of going to Jupiter, you are now going to Earth and you see all that is here. How did it get here?
1. Everything here evolved here from nothing.
2. Everything here was built and put here by an intelligent being or force.
Is there another option I am missing? Your thoughts?
It was put there by Exxon of course..they want to sell gasoline.
Wow, such a thought provoking question.. I guess I'm a holy roller now. It's completely changed my way of thinking. Hell, I might just become a TV preacher and become fabulously rich because well, that's how the big spooky in the sky works.. Right?
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 06:23:59 PM
This is obviously my first post here and really anxious to see how some of you might reply. First, I am not actually an atheist. Second, I am not a Bible thumping Christian either though I wasted 12 good years of my life doing just that. I definitely do not believe in any man-made religions or their views on God.
I consider myself something of an agnostic but a 100% believer that there is some kind of higher power or force. I really don't have any doubts about that. Let me get to my question which is only directed at hardcore atheists who are firm in their belief that we and everything came from whatever but not an intelligent being or force. It is not directed to agnostics.
You fly to a faraway planet like Jupiter. You get out of your spaceship and there before you is a brand new Mercedes Benz with a jamming stereo system. How did it get there? The way I see it, you only have two choices:
1. It evolved there from nothing.
2. It was built and put there by an intelligent being or force.
Which one do you believe it is? Now, reverse the location of where you are. Instead of going to Jupiter, you are now going to Earth and you see all that is here. How did it get here?
1. Everything here evolved here from nothing.
2. Everything here was built and put here by an intelligent being or force.
Is there another option I am missing? Your thoughts?
You can get the answer to this set-up mock question. (No, it's not a real question--and I'm not sure you are not a troll.) How get the answer? Look through all the sections and you will come across one about evolution. All you need to know is there in all the threads dealing with evolution. I'm not going to do the work for you.
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 06:23:59 PMFirst, I am not actually an atheist.
From the title I never would have guessed.
QuoteI consider myself something of an agnostic but a 100% believer that there is some kind of higher power or force. I really don't have any doubts about that. Let me get to my question which is only directed at hardcore atheists who are firm in their belief that we and everything came from whatever but not an intelligent being or force. It is not directed to agnostics.
I doubt you have a very firm grasp on the concept of agnosticism. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, not certainty. And atheism, which deals with belief, is not necessarily in opposition to that. In fact, atheism and agnosticism are often paired together.
QuoteYou fly to a faraway planet like Jupiter. You get out of your spaceship and there before you is a brand new Mercedes Benz with a jamming stereo system. How did it get there? The way I see it, you only have two choices:
1. It evolved there from nothing.
2. It was built and put there by an intelligent being or force.
Which one do you believe it is? Now, reverse the location of where you are. Instead of going to Jupiter, you are now going to Earth and you see all that is here. How did it get here?
1. Everything here evolved here from nothing.
2. Everything here was built and put here by an intelligent being or force.
This is a well-known creationist loaded question (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy) - you're not actually asking a question, you're making an assertion and hoping that I'm dumb enough to play your game.
We know for a fact how cars are produced. We can see them being assembled. And we can see people devise new car designs. Life obviously does not operate along those same lines.
Here's what we do know about life:
1) Organisms replicate imperfectly.
2) Organisms are subject to selection pressures - from the environment, from predators, prey, and each other.
3) The gene pool of an interbreeding population shifts from one generation to the next as a result of these pressures.
3) Species have gone extinct and new species develop.
What we can reasonably infer is 1) descent with modification 2) common ancestry.
What we absolutely cannot reasonably infer is some sort of divine entity, let alone one who magicked the species into existence. In fact, that would contradict the known history of the life on Earth.
QuoteIs there another option I am missing?
Of course.
QuoteYour thoughts?
Well, someone's got to have 'em.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 17, 2016, 06:49:27 PM
You can get the answer to this set-up mock question. (No, it's not a real question--and I'm not sure you are not a troll.)
ROTFL! I just cannot believe it! Someone suggests I might be a troll for asking a thought provoking question that no one has attempted to answer. Mark this day down. This is the first time someone has mentioned the word "troll" on the internet. That is a very original thought.
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 06:23:59 PM
1. Everything here evolved here from nothing.
2. Everything here was built and put here by an intelligent being or force.
Is there another option I am missing?
Yes, actually all the other things you haven't considered. Just because you haven't thought of them, doesn't mean they aren't options. Either/Or is a popular fallacy of theism. Usually, it takes the form: "I don't know. Therefore God." It's called the argument from ignorance.
On another note, I think your question, specifically it's implications is rather absurd.
It's a stupid question based on made up premises. And as far as everything coming from nothing, you must first define quantum nothing.
https://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/2011/07/how-the-universe-appeared-from-nothing.html
QuoteThere's no such thing as a free lunch, or so the saying goes, but that may not be true on the grandest, cosmic scale. Many physicists now believe that the universe arose out of nothingness during the Big Bang which means that nothing must have somehow turned into something. How could that be possible?
Due to the weirdness of quantum mechanics, nothing transforms into something all the time. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle states that a system can never have precisely zero energy and since energy and mass are equivalent, pairs of particles can form spontaneously as long as they annihilate one another very quickly.
The less energy such a system has, the longer it can stick around. Thanks to gravity â€" the only force that always attracts â€" the net energy balance of the universe may be as close to zero as you can get. This makes its lifespan of almost 14 billion years plausible.
If you take inflation into account, which physicists think caused rapid expansion in the early universe, we begin to see why MIT physicist Alan Guth calls the universe the "ultimate free lunch."
The difference between atheism and theism is theism presupposes reasons based solely on belief. Atheism if happy to admit they don't know all the answers, but bright minded men like Stephen Hawking are atheists and can postulate a universe without a god.
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 07:10:58 PM
ROTFL! I just cannot believe it! Someone suggests I might be a troll for asking a thought provoking question that no one has attempted to answer. Mark this day down. This is the first time someone has mentioned the word "troll" on the internet. That is a very original thought.
No one has attempted to answer?????? Do you know how to read????? And the last three trolls poised the very same 'question'. Before you run off at the mouth and let your ass override you mouth, read, my friend, read. Can you???
They come in waves. Sort of like Locusts or a Cicada hatch. You can answer all your own questions. Its called Google.
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 07:10:58 PM
ROTFL! I just cannot believe it! Someone suggests I might be a troll for asking a thought provoking question that no one has attempted to answer.
We have had our fair share of thought provoking questions on this forum. Yours is not one of them. There is absolutely nothing thought provoking about your question. I have known and/or debated with tons of people over the years who did not understand much about how evolution works. But even those people, every single one of them in fact, clearly understood that there is a real and distinct difference between entities that occur in nature, (rocks, dirt, plants, animals etc) and entities that are completely man-made.
IOW no one and I mean no one (besides you perhaps) has ever claimed or even speculated that a car is the product of evolution.
Quote from: Johan on June 17, 2016, 07:31:31 PM
We have had our fair share of thought provoking questions on this forum. Yours is not one of them. There is absolutely nothing thought provoking about your question. I have known and/or debated with tons of people over the years who did not understand much about how evolution works. But even those people, every single one of them in fact, clearly understood that there is a real and distinct difference between entities that occur in nature, (rocks, dirt, plants, animals etc) and entities that are completely man-made.
IOW no one and I mean no one (besides you perhaps) has ever claimed or even speculated that a car is the product of evolution.
Lol. Iron oxide does not turn into a Chrysler over eons.
This is what I call the watch on the beach fallacy, i'm sure it has a more formal name but it comes up often. In your scenario is Jupiter designed? How can you tell what is and what is not designed? What metrics are you using?
The concept of evolution escapes you. Rocks cannot evolve into a Mercedes…..animals cannot evolve into a Mercedes, trees cannot evolve into a Mercedes. So the answer to your question is obvious, if indeed there is a Mercedes on this planet, it as put there by a previous visitor from earth who brought it with them. This is so obvious that I must question your honesty.
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 06:23:59 PM
This is obviously my first post here and really anxious to see how some of you might reply. First, I am not actually an atheist. Second, I am not a Bible thumping Christian either though I wasted 12 good years of my life doing just that. I definitely do not believe in any man-made religions or their views on God.
I consider myself something of an agnostic but a 100% believer that there is some kind of higher power or force. I really don't have any doubts about that. Let me get to my question which is only directed at hardcore atheists who are firm in their belief that we and everything came from whatever but not an intelligent being or force. It is not directed to agnostics.
You fly to a faraway planet like Jupiter. You get out of your spaceship and there before you is a brand new Mercedes Benz with a jamming stereo system. How did it get there? The way I see it, you only have two choices:
1. It evolved there from nothing.
2. It was built and put there by an intelligent being or force.
Which one do you believe it is? Now, reverse the location of where you are. Instead of going to Jupiter, you are now going to Earth and you see all that is here. How did it get here?
1. Everything here evolved here from nothing.
2. Everything here was built and put here by an intelligent being or force.
Is there another option I am missing? Your thoughts?
Finding a Mercedes Benz on Jupiter is a completely different scenario to finding life on Earth. See, a Mercedes Benz is completely ill-suited for transit on Jupiter, not only because Jupiter has no drivable surface, but a car can only operate in an oxidizing atmosphere, and Jupiter has a reducing atmosphere. The Mercedes Benz is obviously made to drive, but it is completely unsuited to the task on Jupiter. Not only that, it cannot reproduce let alone reproduce with variation. No entity with any speck of intelligence would even think to do it. It can only have been put here by a
stupid being or force.
On the other hand, the Earth contains countless self-replicating chemical von Neumann machines that are imperfect in their replications such that there are traits that persist to their offspring once coming into existence â€"heiritable variationâ€" and are tuned by environmental attrition. We therefore expect to find that these end-products are quite well adapted to their habitat and lifestyles, even if they are not perfect, and are in fact would be to any trained engineer filled with horrible kludges as well as clever elegancies, as we expect from a natural process governed by those two forces.
Neither scenario implies any intelligence involved. One because its obvious that the beings who tried were completely stupid, and the other because it is the result of two unintelligent forces put into dynamic tension.
Not sure if you're actually agnostic and just being a poe-agnostic...
Didn't even consider an agnostic version of poes until today. So thanks for that.
Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on June 17, 2016, 08:56:38 PM
Finding a Mercedes Benz on Jupiter is a completely different scenario to finding life on Earth. See, a Mercedes Benz is completely ill-suited for transit on Jupiter, not only because Jupiter has no drivable surface, but a car can only operate in an oxidizing atmosphere, and Jupiter has a reducing atmosphere. The Mercedes Benz is obviously made to drive, but it is completely unsuited to the task on Jupiter. Not only that, it cannot reproduce let alone reproduce with variation. No entity with any speck of intelligence would even think to do it. It can only have been put here by a stupid being or force.
On the other hand, the Earth contains countless self-replicating chemical von Neumann machines that are imperfect in their replications such that there are traits that persist to their offspring once coming into existence â€"heiritable variationâ€" and are tuned by environmental attrition. We therefore expect to find that these end-products are quite well adapted to their habitat and lifestyles, even if they are not perfect, and are in fact would be to any trained engineer filled with horrible kludges as well as clever elegancies, as we expect from a natural process governed by those two forces.
Neither scenario implies any intelligence involved. One because its obvious that the beings who tried were completely stupid, and the other because it is the result of two unintelligent forces put into dynamic tension.
I was totally going to say this but Hakurei asked me if He could say it instead….so………um…I said okay.
Religious apologists always think they have "tough questions" for atheists to answer, but really they're not. They're only "tough" because they are too ignorant to even ask the right questions, let alone attempt to answer them. Then again, most apologists couldn't think themselves out of a wet paper bag, even the "good" ones like Whiney Lame Crap.
Not an atheist. Not even an agnostic. A mystic. But I think for myself. So I won't answer you directly ...
If you ask why in chess, nobody does a forward pass ... it is an ill formed question. People do this all the time, theists and atheists. Because most of the time we humans don't know what we are talking about (assuming we can even make a well formed question (called a WFF or well formed formula in logic)). If you were an attorney asking that question in a court, of a witness, you would be badgering the witness with BS. So I am asking you a question ... are you trying to badger us?
If you want to talk about well formed questions, we can talk later ;-)
Yours is not a "thought-provoking" question. It's asshole's question. Jupiter? A Mercedes wouldn't last long enough for me to see it - nor would I if I were stupid enough to descend into Jupiter's atmosphere, where my ship would be crushed by the force of its gravity. Duh.
Why are you God peddlers all alike? You're all salesmen. You come over here and try to sell your broken down, moth-eaten deity, using some tired old sales pitch. Why not just say, "I believe in God" and leave it at that? At least then you wouldn't be so disgusting.
So much strawmaning. It literally made me cry. I feel like crap now. Thanks for ruining my day.
Quote from: dtq123 on June 17, 2016, 10:46:17 PM
So much strawmaning. It literally made me cry. I feel like crap now. Thanks for ruining my day.
Sometimes people inside and outside our community, follow sterotype ... they are characters in a Greek tragedy, all mask ... and "it is Greek to me".
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 07:10:58 PM
ROTFL! I just cannot believe it! Someone suggests I might be a troll for asking a thought provoking question that no one has attempted to answer. Mark this day down. This is the first time someone has mentioned the word "troll" on the internet. That is a very original thought.
Asking "have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no?" questions is a troll game, son.
Seems that theists come here to ask tough questions-the answer to which they could find 90% of the time by googling it. Which tells me they are merely trying to irritate us.
Quote from: stromboli on June 19, 2016, 10:31:23 AM
Seems that theists come here to ask tough questions-the answer to which they could find 90% of the time by googling it. Which tells me they are merely trying to irritate us.
The questions are tough. For them. Because they don't WANT TO THINK ABOUT THEM.
Quote from: stromboli on June 17, 2016, 07:27:13 PM
They come in waves. Sort of like Locusts or a Cicada hatch. You can answer all your own questions. Its called Google.
LOL! Good one!
I guess Brett decided he did not like what 'hardcore' atheists had to say. And what is the difference between hardcore and a softcore atheists? And what other 'cores' do atheists come with?????
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 06:23:59 PM
The way I see it, you only have two choices:
1. It evolved there from nothing.
2. It was built and put there by an intelligent being or force.
Is there another option I am missing? Your thoughts?
The way I see it, it was built by people. Where else do you think cars come from?
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2016, 02:25:57 PM
I guess Brett decided he did not like what 'hardcore' atheists had to say. And what is the difference between hardcore and a softcore atheists? And what other 'cores' do atheists come with?????
Hardcore atheists are like apples. Soft core atheists are like bananas.
Softcore are the twits with the "coexist" bumper stickers.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 19, 2016, 06:34:30 PM
Hardcore atheists are like apples. Soft core atheists are like bananas.
That is what is generally thought. But the latest research seems to point to the hardcore to be like pomegranates; apples were not grown there.
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 06:23:59 PMYou fly to a faraway planet like Jupiter. You get out of your spaceship and there before you is a brand new Mercedes Benz with a jamming stereo system. How did it get there? The way I see it, you only have two choices:
1. It evolved there from nothing.
2. It was built and put there by an intelligent being or force.
Which one do you believe it is? Now, reverse the location of where you are. Instead of going to Jupiter, you are now going to Earth and you see all that is here. How did it get here?
1. Everything here evolved here from nothing.
2. Everything here was built and put here by an intelligent being or force.
Is there another option I am missing? Your thoughts?
This isn't even apples and oranges. This is apples and Klingons. A car has nothing in common with life forms. Cars are artificially constructed, have no means of reproduction, and have completely interchangeable parts. A car from 100 years ago can be gutted and outfitted to perform mostly like a modern car.
Life forms are not artificially constructed, have an imperfect means of reproduction which results in anatomical changes across generations, and have few to no interchangeable parts. Those parts which are interchangeable often require wholly unnatural immune suppression to keep a life form's body from basically eating said parts. Life forms are also very inefficient compared to cars, needing to burn energy sources constantly or else risk permanent shutdown and inoperability. In 100% of cases, a machine can always be built to do a particular job better than any living thing.
No intelligent being would develop life for any practical purpose. Indeed, life has all the expected inefficiencies of a natural phenomenon. It was not designed to perform a task: it is clearly an emergent phenomenon, where chaos destroyed itself enough that it started to resemble something orderly.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 19, 2016, 09:46:53 PM
That is what is generally thought. But the latest research seems to point to the hardcore to be like pomegranates; apples were not grown there.
Who puts a bio-hazard in a nature park and has two naked teenagers as the only guests?
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 06:23:59 PM
This is obviously my first post here and really anxious to see how some of you might reply. First, I am not actually an atheist. Second, I am not a Bible thumping Christian either though I wasted 12 good years of my life doing just that. I definitely do not believe in any man-made religions or their views on God.
I consider myself something of an agnostic but a 100% believer that there is some kind of higher power or force. I really don't have any doubts about that. Let me get to my question which is only directed at hardcore atheists who are firm in their belief that we and everything came from whatever but not an intelligent being or force. It is not directed to agnostics.
You fly to a faraway planet like Jupiter. You get out of your spaceship and there before you is a brand new Mercedes Benz with a jamming stereo system. How did it get there? The way I see it, you only have two choices:
1. It evolved there from nothing.
2. It was built and put there by an intelligent being or force.
Which one do you believe it is? Now, reverse the location of where you are. Instead of going to Jupiter, you are now going to Earth and you see all that is here. How did it get here?
1. Everything here evolved here from nothing.
2. Everything here was built and put here by an intelligent being or force.
Is there another option I am missing? Your thoughts?
I know I'm late to the party, but your "premises" are amusing, at best.
Black and white, much?
A Mercedes is manmade, and shows all the hallmarks of being artifically formed. The Earth is natural, and shows all the hallmarks of being naturally formed.
The OP's question is nothing more than a variation of Paley's Watchmaker Argument, which has been debunked.
Quote from: JBCuzISaidSo on June 21, 2016, 09:21:30 PMI know I'm late to the party, but your "premises" are amusing, at best.
Black and white, much?
Also, if "an intelligent being or force" isn't the most blatantly obvious codeword for judeo-christian god, I don't know what is. Why the need to hide behind vague language? Oh right, to appeal to as many theists as possible and to keep up the appearances of this being a scientific discussion. If you have to be really disingenuous to advance a position, it might be a crap position.
Quote from: Hydra009 on June 21, 2016, 09:43:42 PM
Also, if "an intelligent being or force" isn't the most blatantly obvious codeword for judeo-christian god, I don't know what is. Why the need to hide behind vague language? Oh right, to appeal to as many theists as possible and to keep up the appearances of this being a scientific discussion. If you have to be really disingenuous to advance a position, it might be a crap position.
Amen! In an actual thinking society, you simply can't start at the conclusion and work backwards. Unless you're religious?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/a3/47/e2a34797def1172e4cf7a80fcf02ef2c.jpg)
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 06:23:59 PM
Now, reverse the location of where you are. Instead of going to Jupiter, you are now going to Earth and you see all that is here.
The Earth must have been designed by an intelligent hand to fit the Benz so perfectly. It's a miracle. The Mercedes would make no sense without all the lovely roads, gas stations, and most of all the drivers. How did the Earth become so perfectly adapted for a Mercedes Benz?
But Jupiter? That could not have been created by an intelligent designer. So it must have been designed by a complete doofus.
Quote from: SGOS on June 22, 2016, 08:02:12 AM
The Earth must have been designed by an intelligent hand to fit the Benz so perfectly. It's a miracle. The Mercedes would make no sense without all the lovely roads, gas stations, and most of all the drivers. How did the Earth become so perfectly adapted for a Mercedes Benz?
But Jupiter? That could not have been created by an intelligent designer. So it must have been designed by a complete doofus.
Hey hey- don't be dissing Jupiter. Think of all the lovely big shit that got sucked into that gravity well that could have been hitting us. Jupiter is like that big dumb older brother protecting his innocent little sister.
Obviously, God made the cadillac for the pimps. It's all part of the evolution of prostitution.
The move to Jupiter was a move to expand business.
It's so easy on the mind to assume everything I don't understand, is part of some mysterious plan by a superior being.
My head gets hot when I think too much.
Quote from: stromboli on June 22, 2016, 08:15:03 AM
Hey hey- don't be dissing Jupiter. Think of all the lovely big shit that got sucked into that gravity well that could have been hitting us. Jupiter is like that big dumb older brother protecting his innocent little sister.
Except when Jupiter's gravity affected the orbit of the comet that wiped out the dinosaurs.
Quote from: Atheon on June 21, 2016, 09:38:58 PM
A Mercedes is manmade, and shows all the hallmarks of being artifically formed. The Earth is natural, and shows all the hallmarks of being naturally formed.
The OP's question is nothing more than a variation of Paley's Watchmaker Argument, which has been debunked.
Internal vs external generation. Cars don't make more cars, something outside of cars makes them. People do make more people, something inside of people causes two people to make more people. It isn't Giapetto.
Quote from: SGOS on June 22, 2016, 08:51:43 AM
Except when Jupiter's gravity affected the orbit of the comet that wiped out the dinosaurs.
G-d got bored playing with dinosaurs after a couple 100 millions of years ;-)
Quote from: JBCuzISaidSo on June 21, 2016, 11:38:52 PM
Amen! In an actual thinking society, you simply can't start at the conclusion and work backwards. Unless you're religious?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/a3/47/e2a34797def1172e4cf7a80fcf02ef2c.jpg)
HIYA JB!! Good to see you again! Glad you're still around.
Quote from: SGOS on June 22, 2016, 08:51:43 AM
Except when Jupiter's gravity affected the orbit of the comet that wiped out the dinosaurs.
Yeah, but just that one time. :biggrin:
Quote from: brettw777 on June 17, 2016, 07:10:58 PM
ROTFL! I just cannot believe it! Someone suggests I might be a troll for asking a thought provoking question that no one has attempted to answer. Mark this day down. This is the first time someone has mentioned the word "troll" on the internet. That is a very original thought.
Yes, and you're probably a drive-by troll, as well. You're unlikely to post with any regularity, if you don't disappear entirely after your two lackluster posts.
We've answered such "questions" as this so many times that only very young people don't yet know the answers. I expect you
do know the answer, but are merely here to try to get us to be rude, so you can go off to your little Xtian buddies and tell them how evil we are.
Quote from: stromboli on June 17, 2016, 07:27:13 PM
They come in waves. Sort of like Locusts or a Cicada hatch. You can answer all your own questions. Its called Google.
It'd be nice if they only came around once in 17 years...