The only real alternative to slowing the crony capitalism gravy train of the "The Usual Suspects"! Not perfect, but different and worth a try instead the usual bitching up a storm; then voting Dem or GOP AGAIN!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/this-time-around-gary-johnsons-third-party-bid-makes-sense-060422915.html
Seriously, I'd vote for the guy. Pot would be legal six minutes after the inauguration. :2thumbs:
I would vote for anyone, who on election would make R and D heads explode ... which is the only reason why I considered Trump.
It's taking the power from a small powerful group and giving it to a bunch of crafty businessmen. At least they're all like, "Freedom 'till it kills ya!" I like to think I'd have a better time under anarchy than the regime.
Here is a representation of the problem:
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13418979_1019660264756225_5219677609409834427_n.png?oh=392b184a3bcdeeb5c2193e0a9ba36dee&oe=57FF508D)
I do so want to call myself a Libertarian, but they need to sort some shit out.
Quote from: stromboli on June 11, 2016, 01:41:39 PM
I do so want to call myself a Libertarian, but they need to sort some shit out.
It's almost as if they need central planning.
I've been hearing a lot about Gary Johnson lately and about how great this guy is. So, let's look at the platform (http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm):
The Good
* Favors same sex marriage (at around the same time the polls swung in favor of gay marriage), backed getting rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell
* Advocates marijuana legalization, would deschedule marijuana
* Opposes Death penalty
* Opposes Patriot Act
The Bad
* Abortion: a woman's right to choose up until the point of viability. Parental notification. Also, no public funding for abortions or federal funding for stem cell research
* Gun laws: opposes limiting the types or sizes of guns that private citizens can own
* Opposes net neutrality
* School voucher system
* Eliminate the IRS, income tax, capital gains tax - replace with a consumption tax
* Favors lowering the drinking age to 18 or eliminating the drinking age outright
So basically, Republican lite with a few odd ideas thrown in. I'm not impressed.
Good one stromboli, the tragedy of the commons does demonstrate what happens when there is libertarianism.
In a better world, the final election would be between the Libertarian Party and the Green Party, instead of between the Democratic-Republican Party.
Quote from: Hydra009 on June 11, 2016, 02:13:49 PM
* Opposes net neutrality
Pretty much sums up the party. They sure do offer a lot of trinkets to the people they're trying to hoodwink.
At least the Libertarians are forthrightly for sale.
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on June 11, 2016, 05:58:01 PM
At least the Libertarians are forthrightly for sale.
Interesting, as a libertarian I did not know that.
Quote from: stromboli on June 11, 2016, 01:23:02 PM
Seriously, I'd vote for the guy. Pot would be legal six minutes after the inauguration. :2thumbs:
LOL! Well...................I am in favor of legalizing ALL drugs (prostitution and gambling as well!), not just weed. Legislate it, license it, tax it. Same same as booze and tobacco. Sin sells........................many are buying. .)
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 11, 2016, 01:36:34 PM
It's taking the power from a small powerful group and giving it to a bunch of crafty businessmen. At least they're all like, "Freedom 'till it kills ya!" I like to think I'd have a better time under anarchy than the regime.
The good thing about oligarchy is ... the billionaires don't like each other either. But democracy in the sense of as broad based power as possible, is still wise. Athens failed, but it is a great city today. Sparta won, but is a small village today.
Quote from: Hydra009 on June 11, 2016, 02:13:49 PM
I've been hearing a lot about Gary Johnson lately and about how great this guy is. So, let's look at the platform (http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm):
The Good
* Favors same sex marriage (at around the same time the polls swung in favor of gay marriage), backed getting rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell
* Advocates marijuana legalization, would deschedule marijuana
* Opposes Death penalty
* Opposes Patriot Act
The Bad
* Abortion: a woman's right to choose up until the point of viability. Parental notification. Also, no public funding for abortions or federal funding for stem cell research
* Gun laws: opposes limiting the types or sizes of guns that private citizens can own
* Opposes net neutrality
* School voucher system
* Eliminate the IRS, income tax, capital gains tax - replace with a consumption tax
* Favors lowering the drinking age to 18 or eliminating the drinking age outright
So basically, Republican lite with a few odd ideas thrown in. I'm not impressed.
Good: * Favors same sex marriage (at around the same time the polls swung in favor of gay marriage), backed getting rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell
* Advocates marijuana legalization, would deschedule marijuana
* Opposes Patriot Act
* Gun laws: opposes limiting the types or sizes of guns that private citizens can own
* Eliminate the IRS, income tax, capital gains tax - replace with a consumption tax
Bad: * Opposes Death penalty
* Opposes net neutrality
* Favors lowering the drinking age to 18 or eliminating the drinking age outright
We're not monolithic........................and unlike the current two parties who've refined offering trinkets to their constituencies to a fine and very popular art; that's only an unproven theory for us; because we haven't had the chance to fail as badly as the current crop of *****. Though I'm hopeful!
Remember! To buy a piece of the True Cross while I've still got a few left!
Remember! Welfare is BAD; unless it's for you!
Quote from: Flanker1Six on June 11, 2016, 08:41:10 PMWe're not monolithic........................and unlike the current two parties who've refined offering trinkets to their constituencies to a fine and very popular art; that's only an unproven theory for us; because we haven't had the chance to fail as badly as the current crop of *****. Though I'm hopeful!
Remember! To buy a piece of the True Cross while I've still got a few left!
Remember! Welfare is BAD; unless it's for you!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Fml0fgAxVx1eM/giphy.gif)
Latest rumor! JEB Bush wants to vote for Gary Johnson. Does this pretty much trash Gary Johnson? Karl Rove wanting to vote for Hillary, would be enough on its own for me to reject Hillary.
Feminists ... if you want to vote for a woman, vote for Jill Stein.
Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on June 11, 2016, 02:20:56 PM
Good one stromboli, the tragedy of the commons does demonstrate what happens when there is libertarianism.
In a better world, the final election would be between the Libertarian Party and the Green Party, instead of between the Democratic-Republican Party.
Based on past experience, I knew you'd be here shortly. Took longer than usual. I'm still not up on how atheists and conservative religious Republicans can espouse the same beliefs at the same time, quote Ayn Rand and shake their fist at Social Security while getting their monthly payment. Ayn Rand collected benefits in later life.
Just looking at Gary Johnson's platform. A bit muddled I'd say.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm
The last guy to balance the budget was Bill Clinton. Last I checked he wasn't a Libertarian.
Quote from: Flanker1Six on June 11, 2016, 08:27:53 PM
LOL! Well...................I am in favor of legalizing ALL drugs (prostitution and gambling as well!), not just weed. Legislate it, license it, tax it. Same same as booze and tobacco. Sin sells........................many are buying. .)
^This! I have thought this for decades now.
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 12, 2016, 09:14:04 AM
^This! I have thought this for decades now.
That is the one thing Libertarians agree on and I'm good with that. But the problem is different people have different ideas of what Libertarian is. Silly me, I'd just like to see a firm party line that says this and that and recognizes there are other people that have needs that have to be met and are unable to privately do it themselves.
Were I not dealing with a chronically ill wife I could be a prototypical Libertarian. In many respects I am one. But she contributed to Social Security and is getting paid it, paid into workmen's Comp insurance for years and is getting it. Libertarians run the gamut from religious people that want to privatize everything and fuck the infirm and those unable to care for themselves, to people living off the grid in bunkers waiting for the shit to hit, which somehow never does.
Happy to be a Libertarian as soon as, as a group, they define what they are and what it is. But if it includes religion (the Pauls) I'm out. If it includes people who espouse Randian concepts, I'm out. All Ayn Rand did was figure out how to work a system and then did so, while chain smoking and cheating on her milquetoast husband. And yes I've read "Atlas shrugged" and we've debated that shit on here.
Rant over. Carry on.
I've found the libertarian movement in the US too right-leaning for my tastes. I fall in the left-libertarian part of the spectrum (lower left quadrant on Political Compass).
Voting for them is throwing away your vote, since their chances of winning on a national level are exactly zero.
Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 09:57:41 AM
I've found the libertarian movement in the US too right-leaning for my tastes. I fall in the left-libertarian part of the spectrum (lower left quadrant on Political Compass).
Voting for them is throwing away your vote, since their chances of winning on a national level are exactly zero.
Yes. The picture I posted earlier, btw, came of a secular humanist website. I kind of think the politicians who lean towards Libertarian are simply trying to be inclusive enough of religion and other popular beliefs to garner support. In my mind being Libertarian would be about as you describe.
OH! So now it's a sin to be tolerant and inclusive, and makes us losers! :pullhair: :asmile: Wait a minute, Damnit!!! Are you guys sure you're not Trump supporters?
Ooooooorrrrrrrrr......................an alternative explanation might be.....................you're uncomfortable out of your comfort zone. The tried, the true, the FAMILIAR (aka SOS) are just so warm and fuzzy. Your paradigm is calcified to the point of endless bitching and complaining..................then it's off to the election booth to vote for the same greatness that's brought you to well......................this. A perfect endless loop with the gridlock you love so well at the end.
In fairness.........we won't win...............we might garner enough electoral votes to screw the "other two" out of 270; throwing the election into (I think) the House.............who'll hand it to someone (as in GOP) other than The Chump. I don't think we'll even do that well, but I hope I'm wrong. Damnit!! I'm doing that hopey changy thing again! Don't tell anyone! :)
Quote from: stromboli on June 12, 2016, 09:26:19 AM
That is the one thing Libertarians agree on and I'm good with that. But the problem is different people have different ideas of what Libertarian is. Silly me, I'd just like to see a firm party line that says this and that and recognizes there are other people that have needs that have to be met and are unable to privately do it themselves.
Were I not dealing with a chronically ill wife I could be a prototypical Libertarian. In many respects I am one. But she contributed to Social Security and is getting paid it, paid into workmen's Comp insurance for years and is getting it. Libertarians run the gamut from religious people that want to privatize everything and fuck the infirm and those unable to care for themselves, to people living off the grid in bunkers waiting for the shit to hit, which somehow never does.
Happy to be a Libertarian as soon as, as a group, they define what they are and what it is. But if it includes religion (the Pauls) I'm out. If it includes people who espouse Randian concepts, I'm out. All Ayn Rand did was figure out how to work a system and then did so, while chain smoking and cheating on her milquetoast husband. And yes I've read "Atlas shrugged" and we've debated that shit on here.
Rant over. Carry on.
Did not mean to claim being a Libertarian. I'm not really any one particular thing in politics. I like a little from here and a little from there. There is some from every platform I like, be it Demo, Repub, Lib, Green, Environmental, or what have you; and there is a lot I detest. I do not see any single party thinking the way I do on every subject. Like you, I'd like to be left the fuck alone--except for the necessary social services we need. So, I guess you could call me a socialist capitalist--with a dash of communism, anarchy, and leave me the fuck alone ism. Whether we like it or not, we live in a society. And collectively the society has needs--like roads, sidewalks, bridges, and all the other infrastructure that is needed for a society to function. In that respect, we are all socialist. And for me that extends into the Social Security type stuff. I loved Atlas Shrugged and Anthem when I read them--but hell that was over 50 yrs ago--what the hell did I know then?????? The American corp has become much too powerful for the good of society, therefore we could us a touch of communism--get the pay for the corp officers under control! Stop allowing big business to become too big to fail! And so on and so forth.
Quote from: Flanker1Six on June 11, 2016, 08:27:53 PM
LOL! Well...................I am in favor of legalizing ALL drugs (prostitution and gambling as well!), not just weed. Legislate it, license it, tax it. Same same as booze and tobacco. Sin sells........................many are buying. .)
From a different angle. I was a teacher in a juvenile hall school for over 30 years. I realized a couple of decades ago that 75% of my students would not have been in the hall if not for the 'war on drugs'. I grew to realize that the War on Drugs was simply too big to stop--too many agencies getting a piece of the pie to not want to keep getting it. It seems to me that when the govt declares a 'War' on something, it simply means it will never go away--the war will never end. The war on drugs cost more in time, effort, lives, money and wasted lives than not having a war and having an education on drugs and treating addiction. That would be saner, safer, more effective, less costly and produce fewer gangs--but that makes too much sense--and too many are deeply invested in the 'War'. And the same can be said for the War on Terrorism--it too, will never end, for the corporations that run this country will not let it.
Quote from: Flanker1Six on June 11, 2016, 12:58:21 PM
The only real alternative to slowing the crony capitalism gravy train of the "The Usual Suspects"!
That depends on what flavor of Libertarian you're voting for -- the economic Libertarians make the GOP look regulation-crazy. The social Libertarians, that's a bit different.
The fundamental problem I have with Libertarianism is that it makes the same mistaken assessment of human nature that Marxism (real Marxism per Marx, not the distorted lip-service version practiced in the Eastern Bloc) does: that people will behave for the good of society, rather than selfishly.
Quote from: trdsf on June 14, 2016, 11:11:56 PM
people will behave for the good of society, rather than selfishly.
That's an easy fix. We just create a media flood carrying the information that behaving for the good of society benefits the person doing so. It wouldn't even be propaganda, 'cause it's the truth.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on June 14, 2016, 11:23:50 PM
That's an easy fix. We just create a media flood carrying the information that behaving for the good of society benefits the person doing so. It wouldn't even be propaganda, 'cause it's the truth.
That's a fix that doesn't require Libertarianism, though. And it
does require direct media control.
Quote from: trdsf on June 15, 2016, 07:19:47 AM
That's a fix that doesn't require Libertarianism, though. And it does require direct media control.
Gentle_dissident for dictator? We could do much worse ;-) Or at least as media mogul to replace Fox News!
Quote from: Mike Cl on June 12, 2016, 12:57:48 PM
From a different angle. I was a teacher in a juvenile hall school for over 30 years. I realized a couple of decades ago that 75% of my students would not have been in the hall if not for the 'war on drugs'. I grew to realize that the War on Drugs was simply too big to stop--too many agencies getting a piece of the pie to not want to keep getting it. It seems to me that when the govt declares a 'War' on something, it simply means it will never go away--the war will never end. The war on drugs cost more in time, effort, lives, money and wasted lives than not having a war and having an education on drugs and treating addiction. That would be saner, safer, more effective, less costly and produce fewer gangs--but that makes too much sense--and too many are deeply invested in the 'War'. And the same can be said for the War on Terrorism--it too, will never end, for the corporations that run this country will not let it.
Dare I say; "Amen!" to that? .) My views were not very popular with my LE/CJ peers! Oddly enough they have gained more traction in the last 16-20 years; based on my experiences with former and current associates. w00t! One day!
Quote from: trdsf on June 15, 2016, 07:19:47 AM
And it does require direct media control.
We don't need payola. The tipping point is at 10%. Surely we have enough talent.
Quote from: Flanker1Six on June 15, 2016, 01:38:46 PM
Dare I say; "Amen!" to that? .) My views were not very popular with my LE/CJ peers! Oddly enough they have gained more traction in the last 16-20 years; based on my experiences with former and current associates. w00t! One day!
I really hope you are right! One day...............
My stint in the regular army during the Nam era was a real eye opener for me! I was drafted two weeks after I received my BA, but begged off another semester since I had already signed up for classes. During that time I went from service to service trying to figure a way out of serving in Nam. Finally settled on the Army since they promised I could go to Area Studies school and learn about one particular area in detail. Since my major was history, that seemed good to me. I did receive a lesson in contractual law, since once you sign on the dotted line, the small print give the Army the right to use me in any capacity they saw fit--and could lie to me with impunity. Area Studies turned out to be spy training school--and the AO would have been Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia or Laos--their choice. The school was a long one for the military--16 weeks. And the wait for new cycles to start was also long. So, I did luck out and was offered a CI school--I took it. I did not realize that the odds of me going to Nam was higher than if I had been a grunt. But my lucky dice was with me and I was assigned to Hawaii. I found and read Catch 22 during this time--it became my bible. And I had my Sgt. Lifer doll (a Norwegian Troll) on my desk in the office all decked in his lifer uniform. I was not all that popular with the higher up then either.
Quote from: stromboli on June 12, 2016, 08:53:51 AM
Based on past experience, I knew you'd be here shortly. Took longer than usual. I'm still not up on how atheists and conservative religious Republicans can espouse the same beliefs at the same time, quote Ayn Rand and shake their fist at Social Security while getting their monthly payment. Ayn Rand collected benefits in later life.
Just looking at Gary Johnson's platform. A bit muddled I'd say.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm
The last guy to balance the budget was Bill Clinton. Last I checked he wasn't a Libertarian.
As Rand herself pointed out, the money was stolen from hear earlier so she had no problems taking it back.
Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 09:57:41 AM
I've found the libertarian movement in the US too right-leaning for my tastes. I fall in the left-libertarian part of the spectrum (lower left quadrant on Political Compass).
Voting for them is throwing away your vote, since their chances of winning on a national level are exactly zero.
absolutely agree.
Quote from: Atheon on June 12, 2016, 09:57:41 AM
I fall in the left-libertarian part of the spectrum (lower left quadrant on Political Compass).
I'm about as far left as the grid goes. I'm halfway into the libertarian area.