Hi, my name is Schoppi (spell: Shopy) I'm 22 male, I'm an atheist and I'm from Germany and no, I'm no nazi, just like 99% of the other Germans that live today (the other 1% being Angela Merkel).
I have also read all of F. Nietzsche's published works, if you're interested in that.
Welcome to the forums :)
Herzlich willkommen, Schoppi!
Welcome
Hi, ebenfalls Grüße aus Deutschland ;). Oh Wunder, ich bin auch kein Nazi! Aber dass Angela Merkel einer ist???
Welcome! :wink:
crikey! another kraut?
welcome anyway.
Hey Strom, you change your ave back,,thats just plain ugly.......who wants to look at you?
Quote from: "Lolilla"Hi, ebenfalls Grüße aus Deutschland ;). Oh Wunder, ich bin auch kein Nazi! Aber dass Angela Merkel einer ist???
Welcome! :wink:
Hallöle. It's just the first reaction you get when you tell you are German. People shout "Sieg Heil". O.o
But I can understand that. :D
I have also some relatives in California. But they live there since 2000 or so I think. My Uncle is a professor for Toxicology at Davis. :p
I think the English/American etc. atheists are the most strongest at the moment now. If you just take a look at the "Four Horsemen"...
Or maybe it's simply because people in other countries just care less about religion anyway... *g*
Because a lot of people in Germany are atheist simply because they don't care. They send their children to the church but only because it's a social event and that's it.
Hello. The extent of my German is what I hear in Rammstein songs, so I won't attempt to say anything in that language. I'm glad you're not a Nazi though, I hate those guys.
Quote from: "Schoppi"I have also read all of F. Nietzsche's published works, if you're interested in that.
I've not read them, but I have heard a few times that Nietzsche's sister edited his work so that they would were more supportive of Nazis ideas. Have you heard about this and does it appear to be true?
Quote from: "NitzWalsh"Hello. The extent of my German is what I hear in Rammstein songs, so I won't attempt to say anything in that language. I'm glad you're not a Nazi though, I hate those guys.
Of course. Everyone hates them.
But now they have a new playground: Islam.
Quote from: "Schoppi"Quote from: "NitzWalsh"Hello. The extent of my German is what I hear in Rammstein songs, so I won't attempt to say anything in that language. I'm glad you're not a Nazi though, I hate those guys.
Of course. Everyone hates them.
But now they have a new playground: Islam.
Islam and Nazi-Ideology is very similar actually. Funny how things turn out! :shock:
Quote from: "Poison Tree"Quote from: "Schoppi"I have also read all of F. Nietzsche's published works, if you're interested in that.
I've not read them, but I have heard a few times that Nietzsche's sister edited his work so that they would were more supportive of Nazis ideas. Have you heard about this and does it appear to be true?
Well, this is a thing that I hear very often.
Yes, his sister was right-winged. She was married to a guy and they both tried to build up a nationalist German colony in South-America.
After her brother's death, she rewrote some of his works and interpreted them in a nationalistic way.
But there are modern editions, where we have the actual work of F. Nietzsche without the rewritten parts of his sister. The Colli/Montinari edition for example.
Friedrich himself has never been antisemitic or nationalistic in anyway. In fact, if you read Nietzsches works you will see that he was very anti-German and hated antisemitism.
He also really hated his sister and thought that the German-colony-thing of his sister would simply be stupid.
I could now qoute a lot of passages to show you that Nietzsche really didn't much speak in favor of the Germans in general. I have once did so in a German atheist forum. But it's a lot of work lol. But I give you 1-2 quotes just give me a second. :D
I took two years of German in high school, but that was over 30 years ago. I visited Germany for the first time last year. Loved it! Great country.
@PoisonTree
For example if you take a look at this passage from "The Dawn":
QuoteThe People of Israel.—One of the spectacles which the next century will invite us to witness is [pg 211] the decision regarding the fate of the European Jews. It is quite obvious now that they have cast their die and crossed their Rubicon: the only thing that remains for them is either to become masters of Europe or to lose Europe, as they once centuries ago lost Egypt, where they were confronted with similar alternatives. In Europe, however, they have gone through a schooling of eighteen centuries such as no other nation has ever undergone, and the experiences of this dreadful time of probation have benefited not only the Jewish community but, even to a greater extent, the individual. As a consequence of this, the resourcefulness of the modern Jews, both in mind and soul, is extraordinary. Amongst all the inhabitants of Europe it is the Jews least of all who try to escape from any deep distress by recourse to drink or to suicide, as other less gifted people are so prone to do. Every Jew can find in the history of his own family and of his ancestors a long record of instances of the greatest coolness and perseverance amid difficulties and dreadful situations, an artful cunning in fighting with misfortune and hazard. And above all it is their bravery under the cloak of wretched submission, their heroic spernere se sperni that surpasses the virtues of all the saints.
People wished to make them contemptible by treating them contemptibly for nearly twenty centuries, and refusing them access to all honourable positions and dignities, and by pushing them further down into the meaner trades—and under this process indeed they have not become any cleaner. But contemptible? They have never ceased for a [pg 212] moment from believing themselves qualified for the very highest functions, nor have the virtues of the suffering ever ceased to adorn them. Their manner of honouring their parents and children, the rationality of their marriages and marriage customs, distinguishes them amongst all Europeans. Besides this, they have been able to create for themselves a sense of power and eternal vengeance from the very trades that were left to them (or to which they were abandoned). Even in palliation of their usury we cannot help saying that, without this occasional pleasant and useful torture inflicted on their scorners, they would have experienced difficulty in preserving their self-respect for so long. For our self-respect depends upon our ability to make reprisals in both good and evil things. Nevertheless, their revenge never urges them on too far, for they all have that liberty of mind, and even of soul, produced in men by frequent changes of place, climate, and customs of neighbours and oppressors, they possess by far the greatest experience in all human intercourse, and even in their passions they exercise the caution which this experience has developed in them. They are so certain of their intellectual versatility and shrewdness that they never, even when reduced to the direst straits, have to earn their bread by manual labour as common workmen, porters, or farm hands. In their manners we can still see that they have never been inspired by chivalric and noble feelings, or that their bodies have ever been girt with fine weapons: a certain obtrusiveness alternates with a submissiveness which is often tender and almost always painful.
[pg 213]
Now, however, that they unavoidably inter-marry more and more year after year with the noblest blood of Europe, they will soon have a considerable heritage of good intellectual and physical manners, so that in another hundred years they will have a sufficiently noble aspect not to render themselves, as masters, ridiculous to those whom they will have subdued. And this is important! and therefore a settlement of the question is still premature. They themselves know very well that the conquest of Europe or any act of violence is not to be thought of; but they also know that some day or other Europe may, like a ripe fruit, fall into their hands, if they do not clutch at it too eagerly. In the meantime, it is necessary for them to distinguish themselves in all departments of European distinction and to stand in the front rank: until they shall have advanced so far as to determine themselves what distinction shall mean. Then they will be called the pioneers and guides of the Europeans whose modesty they will no longer offend.
And then where shall an outlet be found for this abundant wealth of great impressions accumulated during such an extended period and representing Jewish history for every Jewish family, this wealth of passions, virtues, resolutions, resignations, struggles, and conquests of all kinds—where can it find an outlet but in great intellectual men and works! On the day when the Jews will be able to exhibit to us as their own work such jewels and golden vessels as no European nation, with its shorter and less profound experience, can or could produce, when Israel shall have changed its eternal vengeance into [pg 214] an eternal benediction for Europe: then that seventh day will once more appear when old Jehovah may rejoice in Himself, in His creation, in His chosen people—and all, all of us, will rejoice with Him!
That doesn't sound very antisemitic to me?
Ideas of Nietzsche like the superhuman, the will to power a.s.o. are very often associated with Nietzsche's philosophy, which is a very stupid thing, because really, Nietzsche would have been sad in enormous ways if he could have seen what the antisemitism and nationalism that already had been there in the 19th century in Germany turned out to.
Or read this from "The Gay Science":
QuoteThe Origin of the Learned. — The learned man in Europe grows out of all the different ranks and social conditions, like a plant requiring no specific soil : on that account he belongs essentially and involuntarily to the partisans of democratic thought. But this origin betrays itself. If one has trained one's glance to some extent to recognise in a learned book or scientific treatise the intellectual idiosyncrasy of the learned man — all of them have such idiosyncrasy, — and if we take it by surprise, we shall almost always get a glimpse behind it of the "antecedent history" of the learned man and his family, especially of the nature of their callings and occupations. Where the feeling finds expression, " That is at last proved, I am now done with it," it is commonly the ancestor in the blood and instincts of the learned man that approves of the "accomplished
work " in the nook from which he sees things ; — the belief in the proof is only an indication of what
has been looked upon for ages by a laborious family as "good work." Take an example: the sons of registrars and office-clerks of every kind, whose main task has always been to arrange a variety of material, distribute it in drawers, and systematise it generally, evince, when they become learned men, an inclination to regard a problem as almost solved when they have systematised it. There are philosophers who are at bottom nothing
but systematising brains — the formal part of the paternal occupation has become its essence to them. The talent for classifications, for tables of categories, betrays something; it is not for nothing that a person is the child of his parents. The son of an advocate will also have to be an advocate as investigator: he seeks as a first consideration, to carry the point in his case, as a second consideration, he perhaps seeks to be in the right. One recognises the sons of Protestant clergymen and schoolmasters by the naive assurance with which as learned men they already assume their case to be proved, when it has but been presented by them staunchly and warmly: they are thoroughly accustomed to people believing in them,— it belonged to their fathers' "trade"!
A Jew, contrariwise, in accordance with his business surroundings and the past of his race, is least of all accustomed — to people believing him. Observe Jewish scholars with regard to this matter, — they all lay great stress on logic, that is to say, on compelling assent by means of reasons ; they know that they must conquer thereby, even when race and class antipathy is against them, even where people are unwilling to believe them. For in fact, nothing is more democratic than logic : it knows no respect of persons, and takes even the crooked nose as straight. (In passing we may remark that in respect to logical thinking, in respect to cleaner intellectual habits, Europe is not a little indebted to the Jews ; above all the Germans, as being a lamentably diraisonnable race, who, even at the present day, must always have their " heads washed "* in the first place. Wherever the Jews have attained to influence, they have taught to analyse more subtly, to argue more acutely, to write more clearly and purely : it has always been their problem to bring a people "to
raisonV^
[youtube:3g1ho0l4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUH1H-b-N5o[/youtube:3g1ho0l4]
I'm glad to hear that. It seems, for many people, if they can remotely tie any idea to Nietzsche then it immediately equals Naziism and can then be dismissed without actually looking at the idea. These people may be to intellectually lazy for it to make a difference, but maybe putting some distance between what Nietzsche actually wrote and what was changed after will get people to look at his actual ideas.
There's a Philosophy course at my school that I would love to take that specifically deals mostly with German Philosophers. Friedrich Nietzsche, Arthur Schopenhauer, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, and Martin Heidegger, they throw in Jean-Paul Sartre (French), so they're not all German. I want to take it eventually, don't have the prerequisites yet though.
Quote from: "Poison Tree"I'm glad to hear that. It seems, for many people, if they can remotely tie any idea to Nietzsche then it immediately equals Naziism and can then be dismissed without actually looking at the idea.
Yep, that is always a problem. Nietzsche rejected the idea of a free will, accepted evolution to be true and declared God dead. That's it. If anyone thinks, that Nietzsche was something like a Nazi-philosopher, then that is simply not true.
Really, he hated German nationalism. He also hated the German weather, that's why he lived in Italy and Swiss, until he went mad and his mother took him back to Germany (against the will of the psychiatrists). There he died 10 years laters.
He also composed some music. Here is one of his songs.
[youtube:m4ufuorz]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yoFL6C2Rjw[/youtube:m4ufuorz]
Welcome,
I'm currently in Germany for a few days as it happens.
I have previously lived here too.
Always good to see Europeans on the board. Welcome :) always enjoyed my visits to Germany.