I mean literally everything about work, from how to define it, to it's value in society, to how to measure it, to why it exists.
Let's start off with the basics of the thread itself:
1. Though I don't mind having other people post, I would like all comments to be serious.
2. I have the right to ignore any posts I don't like by simply scrolling past them.
Alright, now let's start with "conversation starters". (Please Answer these, and feel free to add anything as needed)
1. "How do you define work, if there can be one?"
2. "What is the value of work, if there is any?"
3. "How do you measure work, if you even should?"
4. "Why does it exist, or does it not?"
a. Work is anything that produces one of the following goods: Happiness, Knowledge, or Physical Items.
b. Work is first in my book, along with efficiency, and productivity.
c. I gave a ratio before, and will repeat it now.
==The greater the number, the higher value of work. (Note that this equation is incomplete/WIP)
Efficiency ratio: Goods/ Hours of Work
Value of Work: Productivity * Efficiency
**Goods is basically unusable until I figure out fair measurement of happiness and knowledge. Physical goods is easy to measure efficiency for, so those will likely be used in examples.
d. Work exists for several reasons based on the type of work:
Physical Work is easy, it's for survival. Intellectual work is also easy, it's to improve the chance of survival in the future. Emotional Work (Happiness) is more debatable, but ultimately comes down to the fact that when we are happy, we live longer. The less emotionally stable a person is, the more likely that the instability will spread, as well as lower (though not eliminate the) productivity of that person.
From here we will slowly transition to types of government and how they relate to work.
Quote from: dtq123 on May 15, 2016, 02:13:00 PM
I mean literally everything about work, from how to define it, to it's value in society, to how to measure it, to why it exists.
Let's start off with the basics of the thread itself:
1. Though I don't mind having other people post, I would like all comments to be serious.
2. I have the right to ignore any posts I don't like by simply scrolling past them.
Alright, now let's start with "conversation starters". (Please Answer these, and feel free to add anything as needed)
1. "How do you define work, if there can be one?"
2. "What is the value of work, if there is any?"
3. "How do you measure work, if you even should?"
4. "Why does it exist, or does it not?"
a. Work is anything that produces one of the following goods: Happiness, Knowledge, or Physical Items.
b. Work is first in my book, along with efficiency, and productivity.
c. I gave a ratio before, and will repeat it now.
==The greater the number, the higher value of work. (Note that this equation is incomplete/WIP)
Efficiency ratio: Goods/ Hours of Work
Value of Work: Productivity * Efficiency
**Goods is basically unusable until I figure out fair measurement of happiness and knowledge. Physical goods is easy to measure efficiency for, so those will likely be used in examples.
d. Work exists for several reasons based on the type of work:
Physical Work is easy, it's for survival. Intellectual work is also easy, it's to improve the chance of survival in the future. Emotional Work (Happiness) is more debatable, but ultimately comes down to the fact that when we are happy, we live longer. The less emotionally stable a person is, the more likely that the instability will spread, as well as lower (though not eliminate the) productivity of that person.
From here we will slowly transition to types of government and how they relate to work.
Some background for you:
From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:
The Dignity Of Work And The Rights Of Workershttp://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catholic-social-teaching/the-dignity-of-work-and-the-rights-of-workers.cfm
And this encyclical from Pope Leo XIII:
RERUM NOVARUM
ON CAPITAL AND LABOR
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII MAY 15, 1891http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catholic-social-teaching/the-dignity-of-work-and-the-rights-of-workers.cfm
Quote from: dtq123 on May 15, 2016, 02:13:00 PM
Alright, now let's start with "conversation starters". (Please Answer these, and feel free to add anything as needed)
1. "How do you define work, if there can be one?"
Dictionary definition: the mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result
Quote2. "What is the value of work, if there is any?"
The obvious answer would be the value of the product of the work in the estimation of the person doing the work or causing the work to be performed. I might value the work done by my employee more than he or she values it. Or vice-versa.
But a second, less obvious answer would be that because work gives dignity to those who perform it, it has a value that is not measured strictly in terms of the product of the work. IOW, work has a value in that it gives dignity to the worker who can be proud of his accomplishments and his status as a worker.
Quote3. "How do you measure work, if you even should?"
Let me know if the answers give above are inadequate. But more simply, work is measured by the output - whether that be lines of code written or bales of hay put into a barn or automobiles sold. Productivity is generally measured in terms of some unit of time: bales per day, cars sold per month, etc.
In the world of physics, force = mass x acceleration of F=ma. The next step is:
Work = Force x Displacement x Cosine(theta) or W = F d cos(theta)
But I don't think you are looking for an answer from physics. It seems like you are looking for a philosophical understanding of work. Is that correct?
Quote4. "Why does it exist, or does it not?"
Generally, because we need things that we do not have. In modern societies, we do not produce the soap we need; we produce something else (wooden furniture or software) which exchange for money which we use to buy the things we need like soap. This is different from how life worked not too long ago. We have become specialists.
Am I on the right track, so far?
First four rules of economics ...
1. There is no free lunch, even if someone else pays for you
2. If you don't work, you don't eat ... or see the pater familias
3. If you borrow from your own future, you will have a poorer future
4. If you borrow from Guido, you will pay back with interest, or else
If you contradict any of these rules, you are a fraud or a socialist or both. Bankers are frauds (they get something for nothing, through magic interest) like the rest of the finance industry. Socialists are politicians buying votes. Don't vote for them or you live like Venezuela. Have too much interaction with a bank, and you will be in the poor house.
The basis of human life is the family ... no family no life. Marriage and parenting (which may be extended rather than nuclear). People who don't marry or don't parent ... are marginal. The primary industry of the family is agriculture. No food, no people. So in the beginning (neolithic) we have various forms of agriculture, being run by extended families aka clans and tribes. The more male family members, more likelihood you can keep folks (other males) from ripping you off. The city was invented as an exploitation of the agricultural business, but it can also provide a higher standard of living, for the few. What is key, is for the city to not parasitize agriculture ... but usually agriculture gives more than it gets vis a vis the city, which provides a farmer's market. This is because the city has citizens, aka citizen soldiers, who can enforce their will on the agriculturalists. So the agricultural produce gets taxed, as food items, for ... protection. There may also be a labor tax. There isn't any money yet to pay protection money.
None of these realities have been changed, over the last 5000 years ... by modernity. Modernity is ancient Mesopotamia with more gadgets and more people.
::Randy::
Ah, you're Catholic. This ought to be interesting. I was once a Catholic myself.
Based on the background information given, you appear to value rights and collectivism above individual needs, is that fair to say?
It appears that Catholicism based on the information described matches a fair number of governments on the left, is that not true?
If not, please help explain how Catholicism is not Liberal/Leftist.
On another note, Take a brief look at this document for a context of my next statement.
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/economic-justice-economy/upload/catholic-framework-economic-life.pdf
The actual quote:
"A fundamental moral measure of any economy is how the poor and vulnerable are faring."
There is something I would note before we continue on. I am leaning towards somewhat extremist thoughts when it comes to a work oriented society, if you read my thoughts in "Why are we all supposed to be equal?" One of the assumptions that I hoped you would pick up, that due to the lack of mention of rights for those who do not meet quota on my end means that those people are not important in my worldview.
One thing that has changed is the scope of people who would be considered "Lazy." However, my stance on withholding certain rights from those who cannot either work to support themselves or others has not changed.
With this, I may simply be pointing out something that isn't problem. However, I will clarify my points that I deem important enough for you to know.
Those who are impoverished and living in destitute conditions (i.e. Homeless, Drug Addicts, Debt Holders) are often the one's who are humbled and are working the hardest, maximizing time of work. Thus, these people would be held in high regard if a sudden shift to my system were made.
The physically ill and mentally ill are also fairly exempt due to "Morale" (Happiness) produced when these people do succeed at life. There is one exception in this group:
Those in a vegetative state or unable to work in addition to not producing any happiness.
It is my believe that these people must be given a swift, painless death. Even the most hardworking person who gets knocked out into comatose will be executed in such manner.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1407797
"The hospital bills obtained for 13 patients averaged $170,000,"
It is my belief that the most moral option is not to let them die, that could take days or weeks at a time. Rather, they must be killed to preserve resources.
::Baruch::
And of the Nordic States? Those do well, and they're FAAAAAR Left. At least compared to the world.
EDIT: This was one long post @_@ I'ma take lunch now.
"::Baruch::
And of the Nordic States? Those do well, and they're FAAAAAR Left. At least compared to the world."
They have free lunches in Sweden? I know a guy, former American, who lives in Sweden. He never mentioned the free lunches. Maybe I should ask him about free smorgasbord? All those free lunches ... is that why most of the Muslim refugees prefer Scandinavia to even Germany? Germany has been a promised land for Turks, ever since the Germans got in bed with the Turks in 1914.
Ah yes, and nobody has to work in Sweden ... the Swedish meatballs grow on trees without any tree husbandry? Maybe the Swedish blond haired blue eyed
girls aren't frigid, if you warm them up first, they will sleep with anyone, like French girls? Who know utopia could exist so far north.
As far as paradise goes ... compare Denmark, Norway and Finland (not Nordic) ... in WW II, compared to Sweden, who mostly collaborated with you know who.
Just remember, this is about work, not politics. No politician ever works, that is why they run for office, to get a little of the flab off.
[mod]Guys. How many times have I said in the last week to not make new threads that single out a different member? At least 2... and this makes at least 3 times. This thread is closed.
If you want to, try doing the thread over without adding names in to the thread title. If you need to speak with a member directly, that is what the private message feature is for. No more of this making a new thread to address other members. If you want it to be a public debate, private message him and ask him to do an either formal or informal debate in the debate section.
This is in the last part of rule 5. No more of this. Ok? Ok.
[/mod] Please read the rules, because everyone seems to be disregarding and forgetting them. http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=5589.0
Unlocked. And thread title changed.
Thank you, and sorry for any confusion.
I will refrain from using "Flaming" Language in the future if possible. My previous post before the change of the name (of thread) was meant to give an incredibly nuanced example of why the statement "A fundamental moral measure of any economy is how the poor and vulnerable are faring." Would not suffice in a society that I thought of.
Having not shared this outside of this community, I sincerely want the opinion of a religious person.
And with that, I await a response for the conversation to continue.
**Opens the floodgates for anyone who's interested.**
The Catholic position on the dignity of work is pretty good. And they are pretty clear on the social welfare subject. Widows and orphans are mentioned in the Bible.
"A fundamental moral measure of any economy is how the poor and vulnerable are faring." - couldn't agree more. But is work about morality? Or is social relief outside of work? I think most people separate those.
And for every 1,000 or so good Catholic/Christian/peon/proletariat righteously slaving for the man, there is some rich kid with daddy's provided Assistant Manager job with stock pulling in a couple mil a year doing nothing but shagging his secretary. Yup, God provides for the masses.
Quote from: dtq123 on May 15, 2016, 03:20:51 PM
::Randy::
Ah, you're Catholic. This ought to be interesting. I was once a Catholic myself.
If you were baptized in the Catholic Church, then you still are a Catholic. You're just not a "practicing Catholic". But I understand what you're saying.
QuoteBased on the background information given, you appear to value rights and collectivism above individual needs, is that fair to say?
It appears that Catholicism based on the information described matches a fair number of governments on the left, is that not true?
If not, please help explain how Catholicism is not Liberal/Leftist.
I view my own politics as conservative and NOT left-leaning, but I think it might be fair to say that the Church would be more left than right on the political scale. I've started to ask myself questions along these lines this election cycle, but I haven't gone very far with it, yet.
QuoteOn another note, Take a brief look at this document for a context of my next statement.
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/economic-justice-economy/upload/catholic-framework-economic-life.pdf
The actual quote:
"A fundamental moral measure of any economy is how the poor and vulnerable are faring."
There is something I would note before we continue on. I am leaning towards somewhat extremist thoughts when it comes to a work oriented society, if you read my thoughts in "Why are we all supposed to be equal?" One of the assumptions that I hoped you would pick up, that due to the lack of mention of rights for those who do not meet quota on my end means that those people are not important in my worldview.
One thing that has changed is the scope of people who would be considered "Lazy." However, my stance on withholding certain rights from those who cannot either work to support themselves or others has not changed.
With this, I may simply be pointing out something that isn't problem. However, I will clarify my points that I deem important enough for you to know.
Those who are impoverished and living in destitute conditions (i.e. Homeless, Drug Addicts, Debt Holders) are often the one's who are humbled and are working the hardest, maximizing time of work. Thus, these people would be held in high regard if a sudden shift to my system were made.
The physically ill and mentally ill are also fairly exempt due to "Morale" (Happiness) produced when these people do succeed at life. There is one exception in this group:
Those in a vegetative state or unable to work in addition to not producing any happiness.
It is my believe that these people must be given a swift, painless death. Even the most hardworking person who gets knocked out into comatose will be executed in such manner.
That's a pretty dangerous role to play; I don't think you have the skillset needed to be God.
Something that has been coming out in your posts is this: you value work and those that can work, but you place no value on those who cannot or do not work. But is this how God sees people? I think all people have value to God and they all deserve the dignity that comes from being created in the image and likeness of God. Moreover, these bodies that we inhabit now are not our final destiny. One day we will be with God in heaven or with the demons in hell. Each one of us has this potential. The famous author, C.S. Lewis, said it this way:
“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that
the dullest most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which,if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree helping each other to one or the other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all of our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.†(C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory)
Paul spoke of it this way in his first letter to the Church at Corinth:
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedâ€" 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
So, do not rush to play God, my young friend. He alone is able to fill that role.
1. Work is effort that provides and maintains food\clean water, shelter\covering, and general health. It is effort that designs technology and methods that minimizes work and aids production of the aforementioned.
2. The value of work is survival and minimization of pain of humanity and other life forms it contacts.
3. We should measure work by the happiness of humanity and other life forms it contacts.
4. Work exists to lengthen our lives, bring about happiness, and create leisure.
In my honest and serious opinion, competition in work is a hindrance to this process.
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 15, 2016, 08:30:56 PM
“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which,if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare.(C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory)
Paul spoke of it this way in his first letter to the Church at Corinth:
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedâ€" 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
So, do not rush to play God, my young friend. He alone is able to fill that role.
To my understanding, It appears that you value the "possible" over the "certain". It is as they say, "A dog's bark is worse than it's bite."
Let us say your statement was true. Who is to blame?
If nature took it's course, majority would die on their own. The rest would be an incredible burden to the rest who are living. And let's not forget to mention that these people are not only a exception, but by definition for the requisites of death, these people must have produced no happiness while dead. It is easy to fix this should a good friend or family member care enough to visit, thus showing that even one person cares. I'm talking about people who have been dead to society long before their death, the hated people who simply haven't been placed in prison yet.
As for playing God? I have no intent. This entire conversation is conjecture, a question if I may use that word. A question to see if it can hold up to scrutiny. I already know that it's too utopian. If this ever were to come to light, a machine who knew where everyone was and what they were thinking would control the system. Definitely not me.
I'm pretty sure the definition of work is the definition of work
other wise every thing else is quite subjective. Drawing a flower maybe work to you but for me it's hella fun.
Quote from: dtq123 on May 16, 2016, 09:05:01 AM
To my understanding, It appears that you value the "possible" over the "certain". It is as they say, "A dog's bark is worse than it's bite."
Let us say your statement was true. Who is to blame?
If nature took it's course, majority would die on their own. The rest would be an incredible burden to the rest who are living. And let's not forget to mention that these people are not only a exception, but by definition for the requisites of death, these people must have produced no happiness while dead. It is easy to fix this should a good friend or family member care enough to visit, thus showing that even one person cares. I'm talking about people who have been dead to society long before their death, the hated people who simply haven't been placed in prison yet.
As for playing God? I have no intent. This entire conversation is conjecture, a question if I may use that word. A question to see if it can hold up to scrutiny. I already know that it's too utopian. If this ever were to come to light, a machine who knew where everyone was and what they were thinking would control the system. Definitely not me.
I'm simply pointing out that you are taking a purely utilitarian view of human worth and questioning whether that is correct.
According to your approach, mentally handicapped people, for example, would simply be executed at birth if not before to avoid the expense and inconvenience of loving and caring for them.
But then I wonder...what happens to you if you should become injured or ill or suffer a stroke? Presumably, you would have no problem with society ending your life because you offer nothing of value to the rest of us? And yet, I wonder if you mother would not weep over her loss. If so, isn't that evidence that your life (even if limited) would produce greater happiness for her than your death?
One other point: how much personal growth do people experience through the sacrifice required to care for people like those you wish to be rid of? Isn't there some utilitarian value to an invalid who needs to be washed, dressed and fed each day? His caretaker has a job. His family learns patience and self-sacrifice. In this way, he is being useful by being useless.
Matthew 6:26
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
(Mah Quote thing isn't working. Then again Windows 10 really screwed things up.)
**Manual Quote Activate**
Quote from: Randy Carson
But then I wonder...what happens to you if you should become injured or ill or suffer a stroke? Presumably, you would have no problem with society ending your life because you offer nothing of value to the rest of us? And yet, I wonder if you mother would not weep over her loss. If so, isn't that evidence that your life (even if limited) would produce greater happiness for her than your death?
I constantly worry if I'm good enough, and would rather be dead than a waste to society. Kinda what happens when you believe that god doesn't exist.
Quote from: Randy Carson
One other point: how much personal growth do people experience through the sacrifice required to care for people like those you wish to be rid of? Isn't there some utilitarian value to an invalid who needs to be washed, dressed and fed each day? His caretaker has a job. His family learns patience and self-sacrifice. In this way, he is being useful by being useless.
**Note taken, Lessons are learned by caring for those who cannot support themselves**
I will find a way to put this into my patchwork system. Again, this is just a "Mind Game" if you will.
Quote from: Randy Carson
Matthew 6:26
Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
Birds still hunt. We still hunt.
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/undertale/images/5/56/Spr_floweyface_end_2.png/revision/latest?cb=20160126032357)
Quote from: Flowey the FlowerIt's kill or be killed.
Yes Flowey, Except it's nature that kills, not any sentient being.
dtq123 ... I think you imply you are a marginal Christian. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But many religions rely on shame or guilt ... it isn't a Christian monopoly. But what does that have to do with work? Do you think that unless you work while in school, you aren't doing your part? Most parents are content to tell you ... that school is your job. That and a few other things at home, which pay a small compensation, so that you learn a little about the adult world (professors obviously never grow up, they never leave school).
I did only a few household chores and got a very small allowance. Until I got a paper route, and my parents helped me a lot with that, I wasn't all by myself getting the newspapers ready to drop. Later I did a little work in roofing, with a classmate ... that was before I developed acrophobia! Worked two summers while in college ... both at Coors. Unless your family is in dire need, I don't see you doing much work, but you could help out at a food kitchen. Just make sure you don't ditch class and you do your homework. After all, until you get a car, you can't drive to work very easily.
Quotes are working again.
Quote from: Baruch on May 16, 2016, 11:32:03 PM
dtq123 ... I think you imply you are a marginal Christian.
o.o
I am an atheist. Next!
In response to everything else, it's just part of my moral system. Unless I maximize my output, society should treat me as less than a normal person.
Quote from: dtq123 on May 17, 2016, 12:23:53 AM
Unless I maximize my output, society should treat me as less than a normal person.
Oh, Archie.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/androidlove/archie%20bunker_zpsb9vbdlro.jpg)
Quote from: dtq123 on May 15, 2016, 02:13:00 PM
I mean literally everything about work, from how to define it, to it's value in society, to how to measure it, to why it exists.
Let's start off with the basics of the thread itself:
1. Though I don't mind having other people post, I would like all comments to be serious.
2. I have the right to ignore any posts I don't like by simply scrolling past them.
Alright, now let's start with "conversation starters". (Please Answer these, and feel free to add anything as needed)
1. "How do you define work, if there can be one?"
2. "What is the value of work, if there is any?"
3. "How do you measure work, if you even should?"
4. "Why does it exist, or does it not?"
a. Work is anything that produces one of the following goods: Happiness, Knowledge, or Physical Items.
b. Work is first in my book, along with efficiency, and productivity.
c. I gave a ratio before, and will repeat it now.
==The greater the number, the higher value of work. (Note that this equation is incomplete/WIP)
Efficiency ratio: Goods/ Hours of Work
Value of Work: Productivity * Efficiency
**Goods is basically unusable until I figure out fair measurement of happiness and knowledge. Physical goods is easy to measure efficiency for, so those will likely be used in examples.
d. Work exists for several reasons based on the type of work:
Physical Work is easy, it's for survival. Intellectual work is also easy, it's to improve the chance of survival in the future. Emotional Work (Happiness) is more debatable, but ultimately comes down to the fact that when we are happy, we live longer. The less emotionally stable a person is, the more likely that the instability will spread, as well as lower (though not eliminate the) productivity of that person.
From here we will slowly transition to types of government and how they relate to work.
The purpose of existence is to be one's Self in a World that is extremely hostile to any such endeavor. Work is the effort that one puts into reaching that goal. All else is either a waste of time or the toll that one must pay to be tolerated by Society (aka, the Dragon-In-The-Doorway).
Any work that one does not do to satisfy one's own needs is a complete waste of time.
Oh, you monster!
But one of my needs is to help others! How dare you call me a monster! I love other people - why would I hurt them?
Begin each day by looking in the mirror, smiling at yourself (nice, big smile), and saying aloud, "Other people are a mistake!" - Then you're ready to begin your WORK.
The job is to get from the World what you want.
Put on your costume and get ready to go do what you must do to put food on you table. And don't be grumpy about it. And don't be grudging about it. Don't take it too seriously, either. It's just putting food on the table.
Here and there, every chance you get, work on YOURSELF: read, study, practice your lines!
Who is it, what is it, how is it that I want to be? Keep that in mind at all times. Work on it every waking moment.
When you are at home, you are in your dressing room, preparing to go back on stage. Each fresh performance should be better than the last.
Slowly, painfully, however you can - acquire the costumes, props, and other wherewithal for the part that you wish to play.
If you want to be a teacher, you need a masters degree - that's a prop. Get it. But, along the way, look, act, even smell like your idea of a teacher. I've not yet gotten my masters degree (working on it), but already strangers assume that I'm a college professor. When I step out of the house, I look like a college professor, down to having my pipe in hand!
NEVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE WHAT YOU WANT! They will put "PhD in Mathematics" on my headstone!
Quote from: dtq123 on May 17, 2016, 12:23:53 AM
Quotes are working again.o.o
I am an atheist. Next!
In response to everything else, it's just part of my moral system. Unless I maximize my output, society should treat me as less than a normal person.
OK ... but the stuff about the Vietnamese Catholic Church wasn't.
I think you are pushing too hard. Hate to see someone your age burn out ... that is the difference between good enough and maximize.
Quote from: dtq123 on May 16, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
(Mah Quote thing isn't working. Then again Windows 10 really screwed things up.)
**Manual Quote Activate**
I constantly worry if I'm good enough, and would rather be dead than a waste to society. Kinda what happens when you believe that god doesn't exist.
Sadly, you are right. Nihilism is the logical conclusion of atheism. However, you're young...too young to appreciate why your life matters, yet.
So, don't go "Kurt Cobain" on us, okay?
Quote from: marom1963 on May 17, 2016, 02:34:51 AM
But one of my needs is to help others! How dare you call me a monster! I love other people - why would I hurt them?
Begin each day by looking in the mirror, smiling at yourself (nice, big smile), and saying aloud, "Other people are a mistake!" - Then you're ready to begin your WORK.
The job is to get from the World what you want.
Put on your costume and get ready to go do what you must do to put food on you table. And don't be grumpy about it. And don't be grudging about it. Don't take it too seriously, either. It's just putting food on the table.
Here and there, every chance you get, work on YOURSELF: read, study, practice your lines!
Who is it, what is it, how is it that I want to be? Keep that in mind at all times. Work on it every waking moment.
When you are at home, you are in your dressing room, preparing to go back on stage. Each fresh performance should be better than the last.
I understand the irony of altruism being selfish, but what if one steps outside of their comfort zone to provide assistance?
I understand "fake it 'till you make it". I've been there briefly a couple of times because of some girl. I plead temporary blood loss to the brain. Posers are pathetic. I don't want to be one, and I don't want to be around them. Yes, the way society is conducted, they're everywhere. They call me a "drop out". They're visibly nervous around me if they're away from the pack.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 17, 2016, 02:34:51 AM
When you are at home, you are in your dressing room, preparing to go back on stage. Each fresh performance should be better than the last.
I knew a drag queen who lived by this. She won Miss Gay Oklahoma. I think she just won a national prize.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 17, 2016, 12:54:57 PM
I understand the irony of altruism being selfish, but what if one steps outside of their comfort zone to provide assistance?
I understand "fake it 'till you make it". I've been there briefly a couple of times because of some girl. I plead temporary blood loss to the brain. Posers are pathetic. I don't want to be one, and I don't want to be around them. Yes, the way society is conducted, they're everywhere. They call me a "drop out". They're visibly nervous around me if they're away from the pack.
I knew a drag queen who lived by this. She won Miss Gay Oklahoma. I think she just won a national prize.
We are all drag queens ... because human existence is a real drag ;-) And everyone is a drama queen as well.
She's won Best Interview nationally. My GF informs me that Miss Teekee Larue is about to compete nationally again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaHsR3vyLcc
Well there's a difference between pulling your share of weight and working your self into a death just to prove you're worth while. Life isn't about work alone it's about balance. Every thing in moderation including work. It's good to work but also do something your good at and you love. That is the secret to a happy life. Many people do not have that option though. Sadly some must get what ever work they can. Out side of that what is the point of living if all you are worth is out put out put out put. If that's the case not only is it depressing but I don't want to live a life like that. Hey I like productivity as much as the next guy but sometimes you need to smell the roses too. Also there's nothing better than relaxing after a hard day of work. You've got to find a way to enjoy life while including work in it to make life worth while.
and who said nihilism is the logical out come of atheism? That's funny because it's no where even close to true. The atheists I know do not believe that at all, and nihilism has nothing to do with atheism. If you don't believe in god you are an atheist that simple. Other wise we are as different as there are stars in the sky. There's no rules to atheism. While it does seem we agree on many subjects there are area's where we all go our separate ways. Hell you can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts or other supernatural things. While that's odd and rare it's possible.
You're treating atheism like it's a religion well news flash it's not! There are no teachings on atheism. There are no unwritten rules. Simply stop believing in god and that is what makes you an atheist. Other wise stop trying to put atheists into some kind of box.
Quote from: gentle_dissident on May 17, 2016, 12:54:57 PM
I understand the irony of altruism being selfish, but what if one steps outside of their comfort zone to provide assistance?
I understand "fake it 'till you make it". I've been there briefly a couple of times because of some girl. I plead temporary blood loss to the brain. Posers are pathetic. I don't want to be one, and I don't want to be around them. Yes, the way society is conducted, they're everywhere. They call me a "drop out". They're visibly nervous around me if they're away from the pack.
I knew a drag queen who lived by this. She won Miss Gay Oklahoma. I think she just won a national prize.
It all depends on what you want from the World. If you've got to put on a show, well, then, put on a show. What's wrong w/that? You call such people "posers" - well, so, what? I'd rather be a happy poser than an unhappy "genuine article." I'm getting old. I haven't got time for bullshit. I want to enjoy myself. I'll tap dance in a muumuu, if necessary. I like having money in my bank account. I like being solvent. I don't care if people think I'm full of it. Anyone who doesn't put food on my table has no say over who and what and how I am. I don't want just to survive. That isn't good enough. I want to be comfortable. I deserve it - everyone does. But I won't settle for less, if I don't have to settle for less.
Quote from: doorknob on May 17, 2016, 04:58:55 PM
Every thing in moderation including work. It's good to work but also do something your good at and you love. That is the secret to a happy life.
I legitimately laughed out loud in real life. Isn't that the same thing as finding work you love for the better of society?
Quote from: Randy Carson on May 17, 2016, 12:23:46 PM
Sadly, you are right. Nihilism is the logical conclusion of atheism.
"Logical" to a point. There is a step after called "finding your purpose," which I admit is taken straight from Christianity in my case.
Edit:
Quote from: doorknob on May 17, 2016, 04:58:55 PM
Also there's nothing better than relaxing after a hard day of work. You've got to find a way to enjoy life while including work in it to make life worth while.
Though I don't find solace in relaxation, I understand others do. Hence why happiness is a metric in my "society."
If it produces and/or spreads happiness, it is worthwhile.
Though, it's still work to me, cause happiness is work on the mind.
#1 There is a dialectic between work and play ... and it is political. My work is your play and vice versa.
#2 A lot of what people like to do, doesn't leave society neutral, it makes society worse. Hedonism much? See #1.
#3 Baby Boomers were told to self actuate and find our bliss. This didn't work out too well. Basically it means to become a coke snorting stock trader.
#4 Relaxation is work, if you meditate.
#5 Many people find happiness in drugs and alcohol. Einstein said, if all you live for is happiness, then your life isn't worth living. MLK says, if you don't find something worth dying for, and die for it, then you aren't fully human.
Quote from: marom1963 on May 17, 2016, 02:34:51 AM
Slowly, painfully, however you can - acquire the costumes, props, and other wherewithal for the part that you wish to play.
If you want to be a teacher, you need a masters degree - that's a prop. Get it. But, along the way, look, act, even smell like your idea of a teacher. I've not yet gotten my masters degree (working on it), but already strangers assume that I'm a college professor. When I step out of the house, I look like a college professor, down to having my pipe in hand!
NEVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE WHAT YOU WANT! They will put "PhD in Mathematics" on my headstone!
This! Yeah, I agree!
You tend to get what you expect you will. If you expect to be a great math teacher, you will. The key here is 'expect'. That is NOT wishful thinking or hoping or longing. It is 'knowing' you will be that teacher and that you are willing and excited to do the work to get the tools you need. As Campbell says--follow your bliss. Bliss and expectations are fairly close. One of the few things I took home with me from Unity was what they called 'affirmations'--little sayings you say to yourself. It can be anything--I am happy. Say it over and over several hundred times a day. Train your mind to expect to be whatever you affirm. Keep it up. Then it will be yours. The hard part is figuring what it is you really want--not what you are told to want, not what your parents want, not what you wish you wanted--what do you want? Then go get it. Put in the work. That's what work is.
Can work ever be play? I used to love putting together lesson plans in subject areas I liked. That was not work. That was play. Playing football was not work--it was play. It was hard at times, but still play. Can play ever become work? Sure. Playing good football took work. But I was willing to put in that work to make my play more fun.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 17, 2016, 11:02:19 PM
This! Yeah, I agree!
You tend to get what you expect you will. If you expect to be a great math teacher, you will. The key here is 'expect'. That is NOT wishful thinking or hoping or longing. It is 'knowing' you will be that teacher and that you are willing and excited to do the work to get the tools you need. As Campbell says--follow your bliss. Bliss and expectations are fairly close. One of the few things I took home with me from Unity was what they called 'affirmations'--little sayings you say to yourself. It can be anything--I am happy. Say it over and over several hundred times a day. Train your mind to expect to be whatever you affirm. Keep it up. Then it will be yours. The hard part is figuring what it is you really want--not what you are told to want, not what your parents want, not what you wish you wanted--what do you want? Then go get it. Put in the work. That's what work is.
Can work ever be play? I used to love putting together lesson plans in subject areas I liked. That was not work. That was play. Playing football was not work--it was play. It was hard at times, but still play. Can play ever become work? Sure. Playing good football took work. But I was willing to put in that work to make my play more fun.
I agree w/you wholeheartedly. That is exactly what I was talking about. Drilling yourself as though you were your own drill sergeant, putting yourself through your own paces, day in, day out. It's not easy; it's hard work - but that's what really successful people do. "I want this. I want it. I want it." You cannot let anything become an excuse. A setback is a challenge and nothing more.
The only one who can really tell you that you can't have what you want is yourself.*
*Note: I am talking about decent, worthwhile things, of course. If you want to kill people and bury them in your cellar, well, yes, we, as a society, can tell you that you cannot have that. And, no, I do not mean that you may cheat and lie and steal to get your way. That is no good. You must work for what you want. Otherwise, you do not deserve it. Sadly, the World is full of cheats, liars, and thieves - they are not good role models! - no matter what goodies they have managed to pile up ... If you have a conscience, you
know if you deserve what you've got.
I like your walk back in the second half of your post ;-) Self actualization would work, if it wasn't selfish, and if people weren't shit at choosing goals. Find the common good, and your own good will take care of yourself. If you find you don't like that, then do it anyway and STFU. Of course this is what got Socrates executed eventually.
I am fortunate in that I have enjoyed my work, most of the time, for the last 20 years or so. But it was never bliss, it never involved drugs. I get bliss when I have an orgasm, but the bliss doesn't last very long. Maybe work is your bliss ... if you are a porn star and the girl is pretty ;-))
Quote from: Baruch on May 18, 2016, 07:23:25 AM
I like your walk back in the second half of your post ;-) Self actualization would work, if it wasn't selfish, and if people weren't shit at choosing goals. Find the common good, and your own good will take care of yourself. If you find you don't like that, then do it anyway and STFU. Of course this is what got Socrates executed eventually.
I am fortunate in that I have enjoyed my work, most of the time, for the last 20 years or so. But it was never bliss, it never involved drugs. I get bliss when I have an orgasm, but the bliss doesn't last very long. Maybe work is your bliss ... if you are a porn star and the girl is pretty ;-))
I like your kind of bliss--especially with a porn star! I don't think Campbell meant that as bliss, and I certainly did not. The bliss I talked about is harder to find. Bliss=what feeds your inner most self. Maybe deep satisfaction would be a better term. If whittling things out of wood is what you would do 24/7 if you could, then I'd say whittling is your bliss. Campbell explains further, that that is what one should do then, follow your bliss and your well being will follow.
I have seven billion ape men between me and my bliss ... so I don't think I will get any of that "deep satisfaction". Maybe Campbell had bliss, because bliss for him is having your own TV show with Bill Moyers ;-)