Mormons, Polygamy, and The Blight of Ethnocentrism

[Naberius]

I had this conversation with an ultra-liberal awhile ago and this person used polygamy, specifically the brand employed by Mormons, as an example of why it's wrong to criticize religious beliefs.  This is because any such criticism is inherently "ethnocentric"; said criticism is informed by the prevailing norms of a society. For example, we live in a society where monogamous marriages are preferred, so we're all guilty of indulging the superiority of our culture when we frown on Mormons and their marriage rituals (who have every right to live the way they live, so long as they're happy).

First off, the whole notion of ethnocentrism irks the crap out of me.  It's one of those words like Islamophobia: manufactured with good intentions but lacking any credibility.  Ethnocentrism has this ugly implication that all cultures are invariably equal, that a culture in and of itself is infallible.  Following this logic, you'd have to be from outer space to be free of ethnocentrism in every single judgment you make. So how do you escape the criticism?

Returning to the marriage example, I could point out that monogamous marriages themselves are descended from centuries of patriarchy and evolutionary psychology blah blah blah and at the end of the day it's all silly human rituals, what difference does it make.  But that's not a satisfying, persuasive answer, imo.

I'm curious how you guys would respond to this defense as it seems to be finely honed by the left.

[aitm]

Ask women who are not part of polygamy what they think of it.....and I think the answers start to be more obvious. LIke anything, asking those who have the most to lose their opinion, and then those with the most to gain, one sees a pretty obvious  arrow.

[Solitary]

Ditto!  :-D Welcome aboard Naberius! Even if you're not new. Solitary

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Ask him if cultures that practice female circumcision deserve equal respect.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

One must remember that culture has the word "cult" in it.

To say something shouldn't be scrutinized means that thing can't stand up to scrutiny. I personally have a seething hatred for the idea that culture shouldn't be criticized. I once argued with someone who said I shouldn't criticize certain Islamic countries for executing people for trivial reasons like homosexuality or getting an education because it's their culture. Yes the fuck I should. One should criticize anything they find reprehensible, that's the only way change happens.

People will accuse you of having bias, and of course you do, but so do they. Most everyone is bound to have bias on such a matter because of the nature of it. To wipe the matter under the rug by accusing you of being "ethnocentric" is bullshit. I fucking hate the so called "liberals" who harp that something you find wrong shouldn't be criticized because if it's done by brown people or minority religious groups because it's "culture". Those fucktards make actual, sane liberals look even worse to conservatives.

[Solitary]

This should apply to "traditions" too in my opinion.  #-o   Solitary

[The Skeletal Atheist]

This should apply to "traditions" too in my opinion.  #-o   Solitary

I didn't feel the need to include that because traditions are typically just a small part of the larger culture. Yes, they too deserve criticism.

[ApostateLois]

We shouldn't condone ANYTHING that harms people just because "it's their culture," "they've always done it that way," or "it's their tradition." Well, who cares? Traditions can change. They DO change. America had a tradition of owning slaves, and we don't do that anymore. It was traditional for women to not vote, or for blacks to drink from separate fountains. We changed that. Religions, traditions, cultural habits, all of these can change when enough people object to them. We see it all the time. Traditions should never be respected just because they are traditions.

[stromboli]

Please point out to your ethnocentric arguer that while  Mormon polygamy supposedly offers free choice by the women, they are not entitled to the same patriarchal "gifts" as the men. Nor are they allowed to be part of the decision making process of home and community. They are held to standards that put housewifery and reproduction above any personal talents, and are expected to obey without question. Polygamy without free choice is not a standard, it is subordination one step above slavery.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

Please point out to your ethnocentric arguer that while  Mormon polygamy supposedly offers free choice by the women, they are not entitled to the same patriarchal "gifts" as the men. Nor are they allowed to be part of the decision making process of home and community. They are held to standards that put housewifery and reproduction above any personal talents, and are expected to obey without question. Polygamy without free choice is not a standard, it is subordination one step above slavery.

This. I have no problem with polygamy with free will. If you can make it work then good for you, but the form Mormons and Muslims talk about is sexist and patriarchal as hell. There is no equality in it; the women are property of the men.

[GSOgymrat]

I'm curious how you guys would respond to this defense as it seems to be finely honed by the left.

I don't agree with cultural relativism. Some cultures ARE superior to others because they maximize happiness and minimize harm for the majority of their members. Slavery can be explained in terms of culture but slavery itself is inherently bad because depriving people of their autonomy and dignity is bad. The risks and benefits of polygamy itself can be debated but saying polygamy is beyond reproach due to the cultural bias of the observer makes no sense because EVERYONE has cultural bias.

[stromboli]

I don't agree with cultural relativism. Some cultures ARE superior to others because they maximize happiness and minimize harm for the majority of their members. Slavery can be explained in terms of culture but slavery itself is inherently bad because depriving people of their autonomy and dignity is bad. The risks and benefits of polygamy itself can be debated but saying polygamy is beyond reproach due to the cultural bias of the observer makes no sense because EVERYONE has cultural bias.

Good point. Polygamy in theory can work assuming equality of decision making, lack of force or coercion. But you are right- what drives polygamy historically are patriarchal cultures, and there is no real equality in a male dominated setting.

[Minimalist]

I don't agree with cultural relativism. Some cultures ARE superior to others because they maximize happiness and minimize harm for the majority of their members. Slavery can be explained in terms of culture but slavery itself is inherently bad because depriving people of their autonomy and dignity is bad. The risks and benefits of polygamy itself can be debated but saying polygamy is beyond reproach due to the cultural bias of the observer makes no sense because EVERYONE has cultural bias.

Unless you are a republican state senator in fucking Arkansas.  Then slavery was apparently quite a deal!

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/06/arkansas-republican-slavery-was-blessing-in-disguise-that-rewarded-blacks-with-u-s-citizenship/

A Republican member of the Arkansas state senate’s self-published memoir claims that for black people in America, slavery was a “blessing in disguise,” that, if they were physically hardy enough to survive it, “someday be rewarded with citizenship in the greatest nation ever established upon the face of the Earth.” According to the Arkansas Times, Rep. Jon Hubbard, of Jonesboro, included these thought and others in his book, Letters to the Editor, Confessions of a Frustrated Conservative, which was initially written about and excerpted by writer Michael Cook at Talk Business.

There's no shortage of assholes in the GOP.

[Glitch]

Some of the experiences I've had with female friends who are into Polygamy (I have a couple) usually jump off the boat as soon as they can. It turns into some weird hormonal piss fight that's all mentally transferred between the girls, even if they are best friends.

Then again, I also have some poly girls who adore the fact that their boyfriend can get their sexual energy out elsewhere.. sometimes sex gets painful for girls when we have it like... every night 7 days a week. (I'm talking from personal experience)

[wolf39us]

Darn,  guess I should stop poking that poor woman so much lol

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