Stephen Colbert interviews Anita Sarkeesian

[PickelledEggs]

Ok ok. Now before we all go tearing her up, let me put my 2 cents in...

I have a feeling that Anita Sarkeesian is, in general, a poor communicator. When she is talking to Stephen Colbert, her main point is something I can agree with. She doesn't really want to attack and immaculate men, at the core, all she is fighting for is for women to have the same rights as men.

That being said, I don't agree with how she lies about being a gamer, since it's pretty clear if you do your research that (IF) she is a gamer, she is only recently identifying herself as one and before she started involving herself in feminism in games, she actually didn't even play games much at all. I also don't think eliminating the "damsel in distress" scenario completely is entirely realistic either. Why not in games add women rescuing women? women rescuing men? I would say men rescuing men, but that already happens pretty frequently-- but eliminating women being rescued by men completely seems like it would not only stir up some aggravation, but also be turning a blind eye that it does happen in real life (as does the other scenarios)

Maybe I'm a bit sympathetic because in the past I've have had my words come out wrong and people thought I was being a dick when I really wasn't... The way she came off before is sounding like she was bashing men, but after this interview with Stephen Colbert, assuming that her core point is just to get women on the same level of rights as men, I don't have as much of a problem with her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L_Wmeg7OTU

[Solitary]

I have a problem with her right off the bat when she says women aren't sex objects, because obviously they are, even to some other woman. What is wrong with that? Does she believe that is why woman get raped. Woman get raped because some men are control freaks and assholes that don't respect another human being. The same jerks that like to beat up gay men, or even each other. I think everyone should have the same rights unless they commit violent crimes, men or women.    Solitary

[GrinningYMIR]

you can't demand equality by making other censor themselves, that's just you making people say what you want. I respect her reasons for saying what she said but I disagree with them, and I dislike her as a person, because I find her voice annoying, go figure

When it becomes offensive for all of the half naked men on tv and in games to exist, then I'll agrue her point more

[Hydra009]

I have a feeling that Anita Sarkeesian is, in general, a poor communicator. When she is talking to Stephen Colbert, her main point is something I can agree with. She doesn't really want to attack and immaculate men, at the core, all she is fighting for is for women to have the same rights as men.

I thought that too till I saw stuff like this.



Not only factually incorrect (it's not always men and this sort of violence has myriad root causes, obviously), but this is exactly the sort of sexist rhetoric she's supposedly fighting against (just imagine a statement like this about women based on one individual woman's misdeeds!).  If she's actually pro-equality, she has a very bizarre way of showing it.

[GrinningYMIR]

I was thought that too till I saw stuff like this.



Not only factually incorrect (it's not always men and this sort of violence has myriad root causes, obviously), but this is exactly the sort of sexist rhetoric she's supposedly fighting against (just imagine a statement like this about women based on one individual woman's misdeeds!).  If she's actually pro-equality, she has a very bizarre way of showing it.

Okay that's just being a bitch

I officially hate her

[PickelledEggs]

I actually agree that there is a toxic demand for men to be masculine. It is an observable thing. Hell, I even see it with the pressure my dad put himself under because he felt he needed to be the supporter of the household and the wife shouldn't have to do anything (not that they shouldn't do anything, but that the weight of bringing in money should be on the husband) I've seen men break from that. So no, it's not entirely incorrect. Maybe that tweet about mass shootings is incorrect, but toxic masculinity is not a false thing. Anita does have many "facts" incorrect and that along with being a poor communicator, I think is the biggest reason for her pissing people off-- not her goal.

I don't agree with a lot of how she goes about things... In fact the only thing I can agree with her on is her goal of women gaining equality. I don't like that she wants people to censor themselves... like I suggested, why not just add the women rescuing women, women rescuing themselves, women rescuing men, point of view more frequently in games rather than take out the current things?

[Solitary]

She obviously never played the Mass Effect Trilogy, unless she always played it as a man. I do think there is too much pressure on men to never show weakness. Look at sports, where you have to be the best or you are booed. I just hate people that think being androgynous should not be accepted. No David Bowie, Prince, or Joan Jett music to be enjoyed.
You didn't think I would forget her, did you?  :fU:

[Hydra009]

Rebuttal to the Colbert Report vid:

@1:30  "Maybe the princess shouldn't be a damsel and she could save herself." I agree, and there plenty of games where that's precisely what happens.  So...*shrugs*

@2:50  "Games should be more inclusive."  No duh!  And yeah, that's been the general trend for years now.

@3:21  "Gaming can no longer be this little boys club"  BULLSHIT.  I don't know about you guys, but I don't remember growing up playing Tetris and Galaga and Asteroids and thinking that this was a medium that was somehow sex-segregated.    If you want to play, you can play (if your parents will let you).  Granted, the games were often adventurous or militaristic, which apparently appealed more to males than females, at least in its early history.  But gaming certainly isn't a little boys club today.  In the US, 48% of gamers are female.  That's doesn't sound at all like a little boys club to me.  She just wants it to be one for her own SJW narrative.

For the record, the term "girl gamer" has really rubbed me the wrong way since I first heard about it because it gives a misleading impression that gamer identity is divided by sex.  You have the male gamers in this corner and the female gamers in that one.  WRONG.  If you play games and enjoy games, you are a gamer.  Full stop.

@4:15 Actually, we really, really need to talk about video games journalism.  Journalistic ethics and standards have been a very serious problem for a very long time now.  The Kane and Lynch fiasco readily comes to mind, as does of course, GamersGate, where a dev apparently got the sweetheart treatment from a professional reviewer.  This seriously bad stuff that really does need to be addressed.  But this isn't what Anita wants to focus on.  What a shock.  She's the one doing the reframing.  And obviously, she's been incredibly successful at it.

And I agree, feminism is supposed to be about equality.  And I would love nothing more than to think that all feminists are fighting the good fight.  But then I run into stuff like this:



And this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFAd4YdQks

Man abusing a woman = scum of the earth (and obviously, I agree with that assessment)
Woman abusing a man = you go girl!  (thankfully, people didn't all react that way, but the ones who did failed the equality test in a big way)

I support equality.  By this I mean that men and women should be equal under the law, enjoy the same equality of opportunity, and I think that double standards for men and women should be opposed.  Anybody who is on board with that is my ally and anybody who opposed to that is my enemy.

[PickelledEggs]

I support equality.  By this I mean that men and women should be equal under the law, enjoy the same equality of opportunity, and I think that double standards for men and women should be opposed.  Anybody who is on board with that is my ally and anybody who opposed to that is my enemy.

That is what I stand for. Equality. Plain and simple. No double standards, period. I'm well aware of how frequently women are abusive towards men, and many of the other double standards that are overlooked. I can count on that there are some that I don't know about.

Like I said, I only agree with her goal of equality for women, which for me before the Colbert interview, was too blurry in the way towards seeming like she almost stood towards oppressing men. I don't agree with her "silencing" policy and the other ways she thinks equality is going to happen, but I can agree on her goal for us to be on equal playing fields. I still think she can go fuck herself. She's a controlling, narrowminded ass. And equality for everyone, including women, will not happen by eliminating damsels in distress and women being abused in video games.

I DO like that she is fighting for women's equality. Who knows? Maybe fighting for equality a bit at a time can work? I am more fond of working at universal equality like you are, Hydra, but maybe there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.

[Hydra009]

Anita does have many "facts" incorrect and that along with being a poor communicator, I think is the biggest reason for her pissing people off-- not her goal.

Well, that and how she goes about accomplishing said goal.  Hell, the term "gamer" itself is somehow misogynistic now.  How does demonizing gamers help anyone?

And then there's this:

"The “just don’t play it” mantra is nonsense, sexist depictions of women in games are not just harmful to women, they're also harmful to men." - Anita

Let me explain something.  Not playing (and more importantly, not buying) sexist games is precisely the right plan of action.  There was a fairly recent game called Ride to Hell.  It was a horrible, horrible game on several levels.  And among its many, many faults is the fact that there are really rapey damsel in distress scenes where you come in and save the day and get rewarded for your efforts with way more than a kiss on the cheek.  Yeah.  Horrible stuff.  And that game got freaking annihilated by critics, it didn't sell worth squat, and its planned sequel never saw the light of day.  That's how you do it.  You don't go become a victim, you create a victim.

[PickelledEggs]

You make good points.

Question though. Do you see non misogynistic feminism as a negative thing?

Sent from your mom.

[Hydra009]

Question though. Do you see non misogynistic feminism as a negative thing?

I support people who genuinely strive for equality, which certainly includes the bulk of self-described feminists.  Does that answer your question?

[PickelledEggs]

It does. I just got confused, because when the topic of feminism comes up many people get insta-aggravated, I was confused at what your frustration was towards, but now that that's clear, it seems that we are on the same exact page on how we think equality is ideally obtained and the same opinion on misogynistic self-declared feminists.

... so I really was having a hard time figuring out why we seemed to be disagreeing...

Come to think about it... I have a feeling the only reason I thought  as kindly as I did about Sarkeesian (which still wasn't very good, just slightly better than before) was because Colbert painted the picture that way.  Now I'm back to square one. That's the disappointment I get for being the optimistic prick that I am.....

[Hijiri Byakuren]

tl;dr equality is good, Sarkeesian is an asshole, and people need to pull their heads out of their anuses about this issue.

/thread

[Mr.Obvious]

I haven't watched that particular interview yet. But I dislike Anita Sarkeesian and her work. And it's not because she's criticizing a hobby, i.e. videogames, that I really enjoy. I've had people say that's the reason why she's disliked. But it's not to me.
I take issue with what to me seems like a very dishonest approach. Even if her underlying intentions are to help a greater good and not to self-serve, she goes about it in a wrong way.
For example Many of her examples of 'misoginy' in games are the equivelant of 'quotemining' as she clearly, in one of the hitman games, picked one scene and staged one double-murder of two bikini-wearing women that every real gamer tried to avoid and dragged their bodies around excessively. She claimed this gave male gamers a perverse dominion over these women, as her character dragged them over the floor. Let alone that 95% or so of the people you kill in that game are men, every serious gamer tried his best to avoid that double-murder. The game even gives you a penalty if you do it. So the game doesn't even promote it.
Other than that she also doesn't allow comments on her video's which is never a sign of intellectual honesty in my book.
And perhaps one of the most important reasons is that she implies that games make people more mysogenistic. That's a factual claim, she should have proof for that. But there is no proof, because games don't make you more mysogenistic, just like they don't make you more  violent either.
This last point really bothers me. I studied sociology, and my master thesis was on the representation of obesity in commercials. But never, in my entire analysis, did I reach the conclusion that the negative representation of obesity caused more hate towards obese people. I could reach the conclusion that I found it 'agains obesity' for this or this trope and that reason or that trope. Just like she can without a problem on my side, recognize tropes and what she claims to be signs of mysogeny. But you can't claim they increase or influence the people without the proper testing. That's a conclusion that a person's analysis can't reach and defend without proper research. Goffman and his analysis of genderrepresentation in commercial imagery understood that. Healso understood not to be one-sided about the analysis, but that's a different question. A sociologist's or a 'pop-culture critic's' insight can be valuable, but Sarkeesian overestimated her perception and claimed it fact. Her perceptions, in this view, also become facts to her and her followers, without proper research.