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Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread

Started by Hijiri Byakuren, July 24, 2016, 11:14:31 PM

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Mermaid

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 05, 2016, 04:10:15 PM
What does slavery have to do with anything? It's so overused as an argument for blm. There are issues that black people face in the current world that other people don't have to, but slavery? Really?

Has anyone been a slave in america recently? Has anyone owned a slave? (with exception of human sex trafficking, with is raceless?) Not any current generations. It's such a stupid argument and invalidates the other points that black lives matter do actually have. If you want to look in to the past so far with this "we were slaves" crap, we could always bring up the "trail of tears" for the native Americans, the way Japanese Americans were treated in the 40s, the way Irish Americans were treated in the 19th century, the way Italian Americans were treated during almost the same time.... etc... etc...

So stop bringing up the "black people were slaves" card, unless you want to not be taken seriously with the push towards equality. We're not talking about the past. We're talking about the here and now. If you want to dwell in the past and get hung up about things that are done with and don't happen any more like slavery, nothing will ever move forward.
IT has everything to do with our cultural attitudes toward races. Slavery was abolished, but the divide remains. It's not really done and over, that's the thing. Nothing will move forward until we can at least agree there's an issue, and what the issue is. We can't seem to get past that.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

PickelledEggs

The divide remains, but it is because of different causes and reasons. Until we look at what those issues are and what the main one used to be, we will never move forward.

Mermaid

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 05, 2016, 04:40:15 PM
The divide remains, but it is because of different causes and reasons.
I don't think I agree at all that the reasons have nothing to do with slavery. I think it's a social divide that just hasn't healed.
The Jim Crow laws persisted until 1965. That is my own lifetime.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Shiranu

#78
Quote from: PickledeggWhat does slavery have to do with anything? It's so overused as an argument for blm. There are issues that black people face in the current world that other people don't have to, but slavery? Really?

I don't think anyone here, or in BLM, is saying that slavery is an issue facing the African American community. Rather what is being said is that the aftershocks of slavery leave a visible imprint on our society to this day, as should be expected.

QuoteHas anyone been a slave in america recently? Has anyone owned a slave? (with exception of human sex trafficking, with is raceless?) Not any current generations. It's such a stupid argument and invalidates the other points that black lives matter do actually have.

A. All utterly irrelevant because no one actually says those things.
B. So because you don't understand a point, and even if you did, that somehow invalidates everything else they have to say? You really don't see just how heavily tinged with bias that is that you chomp at the bits to (mistakenly) find any reason to discredit everything they have to say because of one flaw?

QuoteIf you want to look in to the past so far with this "we were slaves" crap, we could always bring up the "trail of tears" for the native Americans...

You... you do realise Native American culture has never recovered from that, right? In bringing that up, you are literally proving the point you are arguing against that the past has ramifications on the present. Have you ever seen the statistics of Native American crime, alcoholism, poverty and standard of education? Have you been to a Native American reservation and actually talked to the people?

It's not pretty. They are not the poster children of over-coming a terrible past... again, they are exactly the poster child of how hard a terrible past can be to get over.

Quote...the way Japanese Americans were treated in the 40s...

Probably the only good example you gave, though that's not to say there aren't problems within the Japanese-American communities. That said, they have predominately lived in more affluent regions than African Americans (and Italian Americans, Latino Americans, etc.) have and have had better access to education than African Americans have, which greatly helps them integrate into society.

Quote... the way Irish Americans were treated in the 19th century,...

No where near as badly as African Americans, and it took them a long time to recover as well. To save a quote space, same for the Italians (one I can personally vouch for being adopted out of a criminal, druggy Sicilian family on my mom's side).

QuoteSo stop bringing up the "black people were slaves" card, unless you want to not be taken seriously with the push towards equality.

"I don't like that you have an opinion different than me, so I cant take you seriously... even if your opinion is something I don't even apparently remotely understand!".

QuoteWe're not talking about the past. We're talking about the here and now.

For the love of god, please never ask me to "think before I speak" again. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that was a brain slip rather than you really believing the past and present are two completely separate entities that do not effect one another.

QuoteIf you want to dwell in the past and get hung up about things that are done with and don't happen any more like slavery, nothing will ever move forward.

No, nothing will ever move forward if we act like history doesn't matter and we should all just smile and be happy and everything will work out.

You cannot understand a problem without understanding why it exists, what actions took place to cause the situation. Just because that seems so inconvenient to you, or offends you for whatever reason (which is really quite emotional, I must add), does not somehow change the reality of that situation.

It's amazing how quick atheists, who trumpet themselves as the paragons of logic and rational thought against convention, are to cast aside evidence and information when it doesn't appeal to their biases. Funny how that works...

QuoteThe divide remains, but it is because of different causes and reasons. Until we look at what those issues are and what the main one used to be, we will never move forward.

Causes and reasons that have their roots in actions and consequences of the actions our ancestors took. Our generation does not live in a vacuum.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2016, 07:51:22 PM
I don't think anyone here, or in BLM, is saying that slavery is an issue facing the African American community. Rather what is being said is that the aftershocks of slavery leave a visible imprint on our society to this day, as should be expected.

A. All utterly irrelevant because no one actually says those things.
B. So because you don't understand a point, and even if you did, that somehow invalidates everything else they have to say? You really don't see just how heavily tinged with bias that is that you chomp at the bits to (mistakenly) find any reason to discredit everything they have to say because of one flaw?

You... you do realise Native American culture has never recovered from that, right? In bringing that up, you are literally proving the point you are arguing against that the past has ramifications on the present. Have you ever seen the statistics of Native American crime, alcoholism, poverty and standard of education? Have you been to a Native American reservation and actually talked to the people?

It's not pretty. They are not the poster children of over-coming a terrible past... again, they are exactly the poster child of how hard a terrible past can be to get over.

Probably the only good example you gave, though that's not to say there aren't problems within the Japanese-American communities. That said, they have predominately lived in more affluent regions than African Americans (and Italian Americans, Latino Americans, etc.) have and have had better access to education than African Americans have, which greatly helps them integrate into society.

No where near as badly as African Americans, and it took them a long time to recover as well. To save a quote space, same for the Italians (one I can personally vouch for being adopted out of a criminal, druggy Sicilian family on my mom's side).

"I don't like that you have an opinion different than me, so I cant take you seriously... even if your opinion is something I don't even apparently remotely understand!".

For the love of god, please never ask me to "think before I speak" again. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that was a brain slip rather than you really believing the past and present are two completely separate entities that do not effect one another.

No, nothing will ever move forward if we act like history doesn't matter and we should all just smile and be happy and everything will work out.

You cannot understand a problem without understanding why it exists, what actions took place to cause the situation. Just because that seems so inconvenient to you, or offends you for whatever reason (which is really quite emotional, I must add), does not somehow change the reality of that situation.

It's amazing how quick atheists, who trumpet themselves as the paragons of logic and rational thought against convention, are to cast aside evidence and information when it doesn't appeal to their biases. Funny how that works...

Causes and reasons that have their roots in actions and consequences of the actions our ancestors took. Our generation does not live in a vacuum.
The native americans never recovered from it because they were practically completely wiped out. They also insist on continuing their own culture with zero assimilation and instead, full seclusion. I agree with that as their right, since it was them who was here first and everyone else is 'invaders' of sorts, but a choice of seclusion is also choice of making a point that they are not one of everyone else.

And for your reply to the Irish Americans/Italian Americans "No where as bad as african americans"? Really? So what? They still were discriminated against very heavily. This goes back to what I was saying about the "victim olympics" everyone wants to identify with the group that suffered the most and be the martyr.

And no one brings up slavery as a main point of their argument? You can't be serious about that, can you? lol

There is a time and a place for the past. We learn from it and move on, but there comes a point when dwelling in it too deeply turns in to clinging to it and dragging it forward with you. This is what black lives matter is doing when it pulls the slavery card.

And dude. I'm not offended or emotional so when you start implying that I am, it gives me the idea that you're just projecting your own offended and emotional psyche. You're not projecting again, are you? If you aren't, I'd stop assuming so much about what other people are feeling, if I were you.

Shiranu

#80
QuoteThe native americans never recovered from it because they were practically completely wiped out.

That didn't stop the Jews, the Armenians, the Polish, the Irish (in Europe), etc. etc. .

Quotehey also insist on continuing their own culture with zero assimilation and instead, full seclusion. I agree with that as their right, since it was them who was here first and everyone else is 'invaders' of sorts, but a choice of seclusion is also choice of making a point that they are not one of everyone else.

I think you just about hit something important here, on seclusion and assimilation. African Americans faced much the same after slavery ended, until only 52 years ago, except they were excluded from assimilating rather than choosing it.

Think about it... within only two of our life times, African Americans were still denied a place in American culture. Let's ignore slavery for a minute and just focus on that; you cant tell me 52 years is a long time, and that is also going by the assumption that as soon as the civil rights were passed, African Americans instantly got an equal place at the American table.

You can say that history is absolutely irrelevant and we must only focus on the now, which is an incredibly foolish thing to do, but you cant deny that within our parent's generation African Americans were not equal citizens by law. I really hope you can see how that might linger at least 1-2 generations later.

QuoteAnd for your reply to the Irish Americans/Italian Americans "No where as bad as african americans"? Really? So what?

If I put you 100 yards from the finish line, O'Mally 400 yards away and Darius 1500 yards away... you cant honestly expect everyone to reach the end at the same time.

QuoteThis goes back to what I was saying about the "victim olympics" everyone wants to identify with the group that suffered the most and be the martyr.

No, this really doesn't. This just goes to you trying to make everything into some social cause you can hate on as an excuse to ignore what they are actually saying.

QuoteAnd no one brings up slavery as a main point of their argument? You can't be serious about that, can you? lol

And again, just because you are not understanding what is being said does not mean they are saying what you think.

QuoteThere is a time and a place for the past. We learn from it and move on, but there comes a point when dwelling in it too deeply turns in to clinging to it and dragging it forward with you. This is what black lives matter is doing when it pulls the slavery card.

No One Is Pulling the Slavery Card. What is being "pulled" is that actions have reactions, and those reactions can echo across generations. There are people alive who can remember parents, grandparents who were slaves... you really don't think that has an effect on the psyche of them, of their children?

There is a time and place for history; that is every time and every where. We cant discard it when it's inconvenient to us, when we don't want to hear it. What you are saying is that what people who are actually going through injustice isn't important, because you know better than them what their situation is and they are just idiots for bringing it up. So when I say emotional, this is what I mean; there is no rational thought, you are just knee jerking about another social cause which gets your knickers in a twist.


And this isn't just with BLM but basically any minority movement that tries to bring attention to their issues... the smallest, smallest flaw you can nit-pick at, even if you are nit-picking at a strawman because you don't grasp what is being said, you water at the mouth while declaring that you know what REALLY is going on with them and that the people who actually live it should just shut up because they don't know what they are talking about.

QuoteAnd dude. I'm not offended or emotional so when you start implying that I am, it gives me the idea that you're just projecting your own offended and emotional psyche.

Sorry, it's just when you insist that you know more about people's situation than the people actually living in it, post after post showing that you don't understand what they are saying and that they should just be ignored and their entire position is bunked because of your ignorance, it's hard to take that as a rational position.

Also, I cant help but notice you always take any comment about men or whites as a personal attack, that "NOT ALL MEN!" "NOT ALL WHITES!"... okay, no shit, no one is saying these things. That is, unfortunately, quite emotional on your part.

QuoteIf you aren't, I'd stop assuming so much about what other people are feeling, if I were you.

It was more tongue in cheek, but maybe I did poke an actual nerve...

Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2016, 09:42:08 PM

Think about it... within only two of our life times, African Americans were still denied a place in American culture. Let's ignore slavery for a minute and just focus on that; you cant tell me 52 years is a long time, and that is also going by the assumption that as soon as the civil rights were passed, African Americans instantly got an equal place at the American table.



This^  Very important!

I've thought of this long and hard.  In the Alabama I lived in no matter how much any Negro (or, if you were talking to one of the white rebels--nigger) wanted to ride anywhere on the bus, get a sandwich at Woolworth, or go to any bathroom, or get a drink from any fountain, or go to a white chruch, or go to any school, or...............................well, you get the idea.  They had a designated place and by God they were going to stay there!  There were just about two systems for everything in that state (and many, many others), from a set of laws and set of enforcement of those  laws to the places one could eat, sleep, shop or do anything else.  Fuck--they even had colored beaches and swimming pools; if they were allowed at all.  I saw and lived those laws; how can one group assimilate into the culture of another if they are not allowed to.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Hijiri Byakuren

Anyone who thinks we are not still feeling the aftershocks of slavery, much less Jim Crow, is deluding themselves. To put things into respective, we are only 15-ish lifetimes removed from the fall of Western Rome. History is not as far in the past as you think.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Black lives matter, feminism is good, religion is bullshit, and if you disagree with me on any of these points you are a fucking moron.<br /><br />Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Shiranu on September 05, 2016, 09:42:08 PM
That didn't stop the Jews, the Armenians, the Polish, the Irish (in Europe), etc. etc. .

I think you just about hit something important here, on seclusion and assimilation. African Americans faced much the same after slavery ended, until only 52 years ago, except they were excluded from assimilating rather than choosing it.

Think about it... within only two of our life times, African Americans were still denied a place in American culture. Let's ignore slavery for a minute and just focus on that; you cant tell me 52 years is a long time, and that is also going by the assumption that as soon as the civil rights were passed, African Americans instantly got an equal place at the American table.

You can say that history is absolutely irrelevant and we must only focus on the now, which is an incredibly foolish thing to do, but you cant deny that within our parent's generation African Americans were not equal citizens by law. I really hope you can see how that might linger at least 1-2 generations later.

If I put you 100 yards from the finish line, O'Mally 400 yards away and Darius 1500 yards away... you cant honestly expect everyone to reach the end at the same time.

No, this really doesn't. This just goes to you trying to make everything into some social cause you can hate on as an excuse to ignore what they are actually saying.

And again, just because you are not understanding what is being said does not mean they are saying what you think.

No One Is Pulling the Slavery Card. What is being "pulled" is that actions have reactions, and those reactions can echo across generations. There are people alive who can remember parents, grandparents who were slaves... you really don't think that has an effect on the psyche of them, of their children?

There is a time and place for history; that is every time and every where. We cant discard it when it's inconvenient to us, when we don't want to hear it. What you are saying is that what people who are actually going through injustice isn't important, because you know better than them what their situation is and they are just idiots for bringing it up. So when I say emotional, this is what I mean; there is no rational thought, you are just knee jerking about another social cause which gets your knickers in a twist.


And this isn't just with BLM but basically any minority movement that tries to bring attention to their issues... the smallest, smallest flaw you can nit-pick at, even if you are nit-picking at a strawman because you don't grasp what is being said, you water at the mouth while declaring that you know what REALLY is going on with them and that the people who actually live it should just shut up because they don't know what they are talking about.

Sorry, it's just when you insist that you know more about people's situation than the people actually living in it, post after post showing that you don't understand what they are saying and that they should just be ignored and their entire position is bunked because of your ignorance, it's hard to take that as a rational position.

Also, I cant help but notice you always take any comment about men or whites as a personal attack, that "NOT ALL MEN!" "NOT ALL WHITES!"... okay, no shit, no one is saying these things. That is, unfortunately, quite emotional on your part.

It was more tongue in cheek, but maybe I did poke an actual nerve...


Uh. no. you didn't poke a nerve, so again. Stop insisting that you did.

You do have good points though. I retract my statement about the slavery argument

Nonsensei

As usual on these forums and everywhere else, the discussion is long on causes, reasons, motivations, agendas, and so forth.

And glaringly short on solutions, suggested courses of action, plans for the future, ideas to repair damage.

I get the feeling that it's because there is no practical solution to be had. That the only thing that can truly correct racial tension is time and education. That the controversy of this issue is a manifestation of our powerlessness to summon Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream before it is damn well good and ready to arrive, and that until it does the topic has no practical use as anything other than a political club used to beat opponents into submission.

For example, we can agree that cops too readily shoot black people. What's the solution to that? Prosecution? That only ensures that cops who shoot black people without cause go to jail. It does nothing to prevent other racist cops from continuing to have a hair trigger around black suspects. New training? Forgive me if I put less than absolute faith in the ability of training to erase racial bias in a police officer.

Many if not all of the racial issues in this country have the same problem: no solution. No magic button to push that ends racism. You might say changes can be made and laws passed that enable the social progress necessary to eliminate racism from our society, but laws and changes like that HAVE been implemented in the past yet, according to the "black community" racism is still as healthy as ever.

So, is this discussion pointless? Is there even anything to be done here or are we just exchanging one-ups?
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

Jannabear

I agree that police brutality is a large problem, what i disagree with is that it is a purely, or even mostly racial issue.
If you take into account the massive difference in crime rates between white and black people, its clear why when you look at the statistics alone, why more black people are murdered by police.
Now, some may say "well, cops should be more hesitant to use violence in a scenario such as a robbery or other crimes that, most of the time, arent being done with intent to actually shoot someone, but out of being desperate"
but the thing is, then the common factor wouldnt be race, but would just be cops using violence to often.
Either way, even if there is a decent amount of racism among police, pointing out racism among the cops will do absolutely nothing to stop police brutality.
The solution to police brutality is to hold police accountable as if they were a citizen being accused of a crime, to make them wear body cams, etc.
Crying racism, rather it be true or false, does absolutely nothing to help anyone.


So, my question is, why would you focus on the racism of cops, even if it does exist, when it does literally nothing to prevent police brutality, and usually muddys the waters for discussing police brutality anyways.

PickelledEggs

[mod]Merged with the megathread. No need for an extra thread of this[/mod]

doorknob

no discussion is pointless.

If you don't like our discussion then don't bother reading it. Stop trying to shut people up.

PickelledEggs


PickelledEggs

Quote from: doorknob on September 06, 2016, 01:21:16 PM
no discussion is pointless.

If you don't like our discussion then don't bother reading it. Stop trying to shut people up.
Agreed.