Theist:Why do you think God does not exist what are your reasons?

[Blackleaf]

There is no such thing as chance or random.

Out of the most debilitating depression and longing for death I prayed. I prayed to whatever may be listening; GOD, Christ, higher power....Whatever this thing was that I had heard of yet never believed in....That is why I prayed to. What I prayed for was help. I wished for death and loathed life and myself and others in general (much of the time) to the fullest.

I realized through my own doing, retrospect and introspection that regardless of my percievable will, I could not help the situation I was in for years. So I asked for help.

As someone who's been educated on the subject of depression, I have my doubts.

1. Were you diagnosed with depression, which is a mental illness, or were you just glum?

2. How long did the depression/melancholy last?

3. If you were diagnosed, have you been symptom free on a consistent basis since your "healing," without any aid from medication, or any changes in diet, sleeping patterns, or behavior?

[Hakurei Reimu]

I was suicidal once. Know what helped me? Antidepressants and therapy. You don't need god to recover from depression. My depression was not a signal from an almighty god that he needs to be in my life. It was just symptoms of a psychological illness that needed treatment.

[fencerider]

sorry baruch i dont understand yur response to my last post. Try rephrasing that....

As far as the general discussion on the last couple pages is concerned I don't think your sincerity in prayer makes any difference. I can say for myself over the last 20 years I have spent 2,3,4 hrs at a time hundreds of times praying. and somewhere between 30-40 times praying all night long. I fasted once 20 something days before praying; another time around 45. I tried praying with candles. I even tried praying while burning francinsense.

Do you think that any of that praying did me any good? Nope. the only thing I got out of it was getting a little older. Believe me when the shtf its gonna do you a whole lot more good to duck than to pray...

[popsthebuilder]

Blackleaf,

I was professionally diagnosed with severe depression and generalized anxiety disorder after two visits to a mental health clinic. I never made a third visit. This was years before my faith.

I was symptom free for years.

Now, at this time I fight self loathing and depression again at times due to my own seeming indifference to important things.

[popsthebuilder]

I was suicidal once. Know what helped me? Antidepressants and therapy. You don't need god to recover from depression. My depression was not a signal from an almighty god that he needs to be in my life. It was just symptoms of a psychological illness that needed treatment.

Depression is a sign or warning system that lets us know we are in danger mentally. Similar to physical pain and the body. Altering the chemicals in the brain may help, bit is a cover up and not a permanent fix.

[Baruch]

Depression is a sign or warning system that lets us know we are in danger mentally. Similar to physical pain and the body. Altering the chemicals in the brain may help, bit is a cover up and not a permanent fix.

Complicated business, the mind.  Modern medicine is strictly Paracelsus ... there is a drug for everything, and psychosomatics are just bitching by the hypochondriacs.  Yes, addressing some problems, psychosomatically, can help ... personal testimony says.  But semi-scientific drug trials are as close as medicine gets to controlled experiments.  I don't know that there are any permanent fixes to something as dynamic as the living body or mind.

[Blackleaf]

Blackleaf,

I was professionally diagnosed with severe depression and generalized anxiety disorder after two visits to a mental health clinic. I never made a third visit. This was years before my faith.

I was symptom free for years.

Now, at this time I fight self loathing and depression again at times due to my own seeming indifference to important things.

Depression is a sign or warning system that lets us know we are in danger mentally. Similar to physical pain and the body. Altering the chemicals in the brain may help, bit is a cover up and not a permanent fix.

No, depression is a permanent mental illness that skews one's perceptions of reality. It can hit you hard when everything is going right in your life, for no reason at all. With proper treatment, depression can be managed, and a person can be symptom free for a period of time, but it comes back. You are not healed when the symptoms are gone, but there are physical changes in the brain that do not reverse themselves. Since you say that your symptoms return at times, I do not think that you were miraculously healed. You still have depression.

[Hydra009]

Depression is a sign or warning system that lets us know we are in danger mentally. Similar to physical pain and the body. Altering the chemicals in the brain may help, bit is a cover up and not a permanent fix.

Compared to prayer, drugs have proven efficacy.  Also, is it not proper to treat a chemical imbalance with chemicals?   

[Baruch]

Compared to prayer, drugs have proven efficacy.  Also, is it not proper to treat a chemical imbalance with chemicals?   

That is the materialist version of Galen's humor theory (not comedy).  Yes, use drugs if necessary ... try anything if it works, not if it meets your patient's particular ideology.  But that is why the doctor needs a bedside manner, so you have confidence in his nostrums.  Some of which do more harm that good.  But anything a doctor can do to you, also damages you ... hence malpractice insurance.  I am not arguing for laying on of hands at a tent revival, neither is Pops.

[Hydra009]

That is the materialist version of Galen's humor theory (not comedy).

Materialism is kinda warranted in a materialist universe, isn't it?  If you show me ghosts or angels, I will change my mind on that.  Otherwise, cram it.

Yes, use drugs if necessary ... try anything if it works, not if it meets your patient's particular ideology.

That last part of that sentence is worrying.  Healthcare beholden to ideology.  We've seen how that plays out with JWs and anti-vaxxers.

I am not arguing for laying on of hands at a tent revival, neither is Pops.

That's technically true, but what you both are doing is pooh-poohing medical treatment (and the underlying methodology of "materialist science") because it doesn't fit your worldviews.

[SGOS]

I am not arguing for laying on of hands at a tent revival, neither is Pops.

I'll take your word on that, but I'm not getting the opinion clearly from Pops.  He still sounds like part of the "depression is a weakness of character crowd."  Like you, I'm not saying depression is always chemical.  But chemical depression a complicated diagnosis, and could easily be misdiagnosed by both the layman and the doctor.  Are we talking about a faulty body chemistry or feeling down in the dumps from guilt because it took longer than average to be potty trained?  Both scenarios exist, but they are not the same thing, and each can signal a different treatment.

One thing seems clearer and clearer today.  Chemical depression is serious, and you're not likely to talk yourself out of it in the presence of a psychiatrist, minister , or a god anymore than in the case of cancer.  Are drug cures abused?  Sure.  They are fast and easy.  That might not be the best thing.  On the other hand, I'm not sure if it's a bad thing in all cases.  Some people don't respond to drugs.  Some people don't respond to psychiatry.  But a person who doesn't respond to psychiatry might not be able to get the knack of introspection.  Is that a character flaw?  I don't know.

[Baruch]

"it's a bad thing in all cases" ... about medical practice.  Nobody is arguing that here.  I assume you are clarifying, not putting up a straw man.  There are extremist faith healers ... again nobody like that here.

There is a reason why the word "placebo" comes up in medical discussions.  It doesn't meet the POV of materialists however.  I am having dental work tomorrow ... I am paying a dentist to hurt me in the short run, because we hope it will be good for me in the long run.  On the other hand, there may be no long run, given my age.  Never believe the self promotion of professional societies ... their considerable income depends on your swallowing their marketing.  It used to be that doctors were used in cigarette advertisements.

[Mr.Obvious]

Depression runs in my mother's side of the family.
Though so far my brother, sister and cousins seem spared. Then again; the bouts have always begun midlife. We'll see.
I only know this: even with witnessing it up close, it remains hard to continuously be understanding towards someone with depression.

[popsthebuilder]

Materialism is kinda warranted in a materialist universe, isn't it?  If you show me ghosts or angels, I will change my mind on that.  Otherwise, cram it.
That last part of that sentence is worrying.  Healthcare beholden to ideology.  We've seen how that plays out with JWs and anti-vaxxers.
That's technically true, but what you both are doing is pooh-poohing medical treatment (and the underlying methodology of "materialist science") because it doesn't fit your worldviews.

Nonsense

I go to the doc when I need. I just don't find it beneficial to be like the walking dead and really do think emotional pain needs to be dealt with and not masked. When I get a lung infection about once a month, due to my COPD, I bring my ass on in for some steroids and antibiotics, because I understand and agree that my lungs can't fight the infection off on their own, and I will be otherwise hospitalized eventually.

You want people to have faith in doctors and science. I wouldn't have too much of a problem with that if I didn't have doctors argue with me about the origin of my own giant cell tumor, and then manipulate the scenario so they could do a needless biopsy. (They generally neglect to tell you that a biopsy generally raises the chances of metastasis, and  transformation into cancer)

They tried to have me allow them to remove my entire arm from the shoulder. They ended up doing a case study or something during the biopsy, bringing in specialists and students alike. The point is that you shouldn't have faith in things based on the general consensus.

And if you are curious; they demanded that a tumor cannot be caused by trauma.  Mine was. They claimed it would destroy the use of my right arm, yet has only worked to strengthen and reinforce it.

Funny how the body fixes itself when you don't f with it.

The same holds true for the mind in a sense, not that one should avoid depression or what have you; just that all other avenues such as self honesty and facing ones own shortcomings or demons should be thoroughly traversed prior to resorting to mind altering drugs.

And doubly so for children who's minds are still developing.

Just an opinion; don't freak out.

peace

[Baruch]

Even atheists think doctors are gods ;-)  I work with them all day long, they put on their clothes one leg at a time, just like ordinary people.  Yes, by all means, go to a doctor/dentist if you can find a good one, or a specialist who understands your particular condition.  But don't expect it to be free.