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Laws behind pregnancy.

Started by Alex Shouwls, September 01, 2013, 07:45:24 PM

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Mermaid

Quote from: "Jmpty"
Quote from: "Mermaid"
Quote from: "Jmpty"So, what happens when a woman gets pregnant and the man wants the child, but the woman doesn't?
If he doesn't have the uterus, it's not his call.

If he is held responsible at an equal level to the mother for the child, shouldn't he have equal say?
No. Cause he doesn't carry the baby.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Jmpty

If he is held responsible at an equal level to the mother for the child, shouldn't he have equal say?[/quote]
No. Cause he doesn't carry the baby.[/quote]

Could you explain the logic behind this statement. The woman can choose to make a man responsible for a child, but a man has no say either way?
???  ??

Mermaid

Quote from: "Jmpty"If he is held responsible at an equal level to the mother for the child, shouldn't he have equal say?
Quote from: "Mermaid"No. Cause he doesn't carry the baby.

Quote from: "Jmpty"Could you explain the logic behind this statement. The woman can choose to make a man responsible for a child, but a man has no say either way?
I did not say that.

Look. It takes two people to make a baby. One of them has the uterus.
If the woman doesn't want the baby, the decision is ultimately up to her. Nobody should ever be able to force a woman to bear a pregnancy she does not want. It SHOULD be a decision between the two parents, but in the end, it's her body.

That being said, I think that if a woman wants the baby and a man does not, he SHOULD have some say in that. If I were single and got pregnant, I would probably not be able to have an abortion, and if he didn't want any involvement with the baby, I would not fight it.
But it's not a perfect world and not everyone thinks like me. It is a slippery slope to make it legally OK for a man to leave his pregnant partner in the dust if she does not want an abortion. Since the responsibility of rearing that child will very very likely fall on her, it's her decision. That is just life as I see it.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Plu

QuoteIt is a slippery slope to make it legally OK for a man to leave his pregnant partner in the dust if she does not want an abortion.

What's so slippery about it?

Mermaid

Quote from: "Plu"
QuoteIt is a slippery slope to make it legally OK for a man to leave his pregnant partner in the dust if she does not want an abortion.

What's so slippery about it?
Deadbeat Dads are already a huge problem in the US, (can't comment about other countries). If there is precedent to allow Dads to opt out before the baby is born, I would think it would be much more acceptable for them to change their minds and opt out later on.

I don't think we disagree on this topic, Plu.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Plu

What makes someone a 'deadbeat dad'? I need some context in order to see whether it's a problem here as well.

Mermaid

Quote from: "Plu"What makes someone a 'deadbeat dad'? I need some context in order to see whether it's a problem here as well.
A parent who skips out on their kids financially. Someone who refuses to pay child support to the custodial parent despite court order.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Plu

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. You seem to be having a problem with people breaking current law. That should not be hindrance to making that law better or more fair, it should be a call to enforce that law better.

No amount of changing or not changing laws will ever change the problem if that law isn't being properly enforced. These two things don't seem related at all.

I mean, as far as I can see, changing the law as we're talking here will reduce the number of 'deadbeat dads' by no longer making them criminals for not wanting a responsibility that's thrust upon them.

Mermaid

Quote from: "Plu"I'm not really sure how to respond to this. You seem to be having a problem with people breaking current law. That should not be hindrance to making that law better or more fair, it should be a call to enforce that law better.

No amount of changing or not changing laws will ever change the problem if that law isn't being properly enforced. These two things don't seem related at all.

I mean, as far as I can see, changing the law as we're talking here will reduce the number of 'deadbeat dads' by no longer making them criminals for not wanting a responsibility that's thrust upon them.
You are right, Plu, I am muddying the waters here. There is a distinction between law and what is right.

I should not speak about law because that isn't my thing. I can only speak about what I think is right. I don't always express myself in words so well.

Germane to the topic at hand, what I think is right: If a woman gets pregnant and does not want the baby but the father does, it's her choice ultimately. If he woman wants the baby but the father does not, she should not expect him to financially support it. If he agrees to financially support it, he should continue to do so until the kid is of age. That is my opinion.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Plu

Yeah in that case you are correct, we agree on how things should be :)

Mermaid

Quote from: "Plu"Yeah in that case you are correct, we agree on how things should be :)
Like I said, I don't always take the time to say things the way I mean to right off the bat. Sorry to make you extract it from me.

Incidentally, it always makes me bristle when the word "should" appears in discussions like this. A disinterested party stating what others "should" do is, well, just icky.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Plu

Glad you're willing to explain your stance. And yeah, saying how things "should be" is kinda icky. Unfortunately I'm not even a US resident, so there's little more I can do than say how I feel things ought to go in this situation.

nanivzla

This situation is too vague. I mean it really depends. What if it is a married couple, and the dad cheated on the mom and as a revenge, she will have an abortion (haven't seen a case like that, but anything is possible). What if it is a case in which the mom has some medical condition that could threaten her life and so she wants to abort but "daddy" doesn't see it that way and he wants her to have the baby. It really is complicated. Ultimately, I always vote that the person bearing the child (the mother) should have more saying in the issue, but that's just me

Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: "nanivzla"This situation is too vague. I mean it really depends. What if it is a married couple, and the dad cheated on the mom and as a revenge, she will have an abortion (haven't seen a case like that, but anything is possible). What if it is a case in which the mom has some medical condition that could threaten her life and so she wants to abort but "daddy" doesn't see it that way and he wants her to have the baby. It really is complicated. Ultimately, I always vote that the person bearing the child (the mother) should have more saying in the issue, but that's just me
Holy necro-post, Batman!
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