how loving christians are!

[Duncle]

Okay- lets have a look at this list of alleged mysteries.

The conscience

The product of evolution. Humans are social animals- highly intelligent ones with a penchant for violence. The conscience has evolved because it confers an adaptive advantage on groups of humans who have it. Humans with a conscience are more likely to co-operate, and have much better social cohesion.

All observable existence is perfectly defined mathematically

And if it weren't then the Universe would be too chaotic to support life, and we wouldn't be here to observe it. So the fact that the Universe is regular/ordered doesn't prove anything.

Life in an otherwise seemingly lifeless observable Universe.

Life is perfectly explicable in terms of natural physical laws. No need for God.

Sheer power nearly beyond comprehension in the form of potential (stars, black holes)

Ditto.

The observation of the laws that bind existence, yet the inability to establish the start or cause of these laws.

At last- an actual mystery! Thing is...God doesn't help at all with this one. If you try to explain existence by postulating a God, you then have a new problem: where does God come from? And if you say that God is eternal...well, you might as well say that the Universe is eternal (which may be the case). God adds nothing to the explanatio, except for some unnecessary complications.

Quantum mechanics attests that all is literally the same substance but ever varying wavelengths or vibrations, meaning, very basically, that anything is possible(miracles)

No. QM doesn't get you miracles.

The very will of life as a whole, to live.

Evolution again. Living things that didn't act to maintain their existence would go extinct pretty quickly.

Incidentally, bonobos are pygmy chimpanzees. Their main claim to fame is that they're a sex-crazed bunch of apes. By comparison, humans are very libinally restrained.

[popsthebuilder]

Okay- lets have a look at this list of alleged mysteries.
The product of evolution. Humans are social animals- highly intelligent ones with a penchant for violence. The conscience has evolved because it confers an adaptive advantage on groups of humans who have it. Humans with a conscience are more likely to co-operate, and have much better social cohesion.
And if it weren't then the Universe would be too chaotic to support life, and we wouldn't be here to observe it. So the fact that the Universe is regular/ordered doesn't prove anything.
Life is perfectly explicable in terms of natural physical laws. No need for God.
Ditto.
At last- an actual mystery! Thing is...God doesn't help at all with this one. If you try to explain existence by postulating a God, you then have a new problem: where does God come from? And if you say that God is eternal...well, you might as well say that the Universe is eternal (which may be the case). God adds nothing to the explanatio, except for some unnecessary complications.
No. QM doesn't get you miracles.
Evolution again. Living things that didn't act to maintain their existence would go extinct pretty quickly.

Incidentally, bonobos are pygmy chimpanzees. Their main claim to fame is that they're a sex-crazed bunch of apes. By comparison, humans are very libinally restrained.

I'm sorry, but saying nature is the cause of the things I listed is a given. Nature and evolution and existence as a whole are the product of GOD. It isn't complicating anything. You failed to explain away any of it whatsoever.



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[doorknob]

I'm sorry, but saying nature is the cause of the things I listed is a given. Nature and evolution and existence as a whole are the product of GOD. It isn't complicating anything. You failed to explain away any of it whatsoever.



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no no no

you see WE don't need to explain anything. You are the one making a claim ie "it came from god" There is no proof that this is the case. No observable evidence that a god or gods exist and the universe came from it. You are the one who failed to explain YOUR position.

[Hydra009]

I'm sorry, but saying nature is the cause of the things I listed is a given. Nature and evolution and existence as a whole are the product of GOD. It isn't complicating anything. You failed to explain away any of it whatsoever.

Goddidit you guys.  Can't refute that.

You know what's more useful than an extraneous, unfalsifiable claim with zero explanatory power?  That extra screw that comes in IKEA boxes.

*leans against a bookshelf*
*it wobbles precariously*

[Duncle]

I'm sorry, but saying nature is the cause of the things I listed is a given. Nature and evolution and existence as a whole are the product of GOD. It isn't complicating anything. You failed to explain away any of it whatsoever.

God explains nothing, though. The naturalistic explanations work just fine without any deity. In fact, they work better with no deity because there is no God to explain.

You might as well say Nature and evolution and existence as a whole are the product of PIZZA. Pizza doesn't explain anything either, but at least its good to eat.

[popsthebuilder]

God explains nothing, though. The naturalistic explanations work just fine without any deity. In fact, they work better with no deity because there is no God to explain.

You might as well say Nature and evolution and existence as a whole are the product of PIZZA. Pizza doesn't explain anything either, but at least its good to eat.

All I'm saying is that you can't be like " oh nature and evolution explain all existence thoroughly and exactly without GOD", because they are of GOD. You can't claim to know that nature or evolution are the cause and not the effects. We can observe some binding laws on nature, and describe them, but to assume that nature just imposed these laws on itself is a little silly. Basically you would have to posit that nature or existence is a product solely of itself. This is naive and irresponsible to me. Indeed life does have the intrinsic will to thrive, continue, to live, to say that will to live is the product of evolution though true to some extent, still explains nothing. Basically; either you think everything is and always has been utterly self sufficient, or you believe in GOD to some extent.

It's okay to be agnostic or deistic until one actually contemplates these things without preconceptions, bias, or selfish motives. Deists aren't dumb. They surmise that a higher power and or supreme intelect/ creator could have indeed formed existence in some fashion, winding the clock, if you will. But then they assume that this same life giving creative force/ energy/ spirit cares not for it's own formation or creation. I personally don't know why they make this leap of faith in claiming GOD doesn't care or intercede on his formations behalf. They say GOD can't possibly care about us on this little grain of sand amidst a whole sea shore of sand. But that isn't a logical or justifiable claim. That singular grain of sand is the only one on the whole observable shore that is teeming with life. This alone shows significance and relevance in contrast with the rest of observable existence which has know signs of advanced life.

Why would GOD create or form all  existence, including observable life on one planet just to not care about it?

I make things, build things, form and create things. I am nearly infinity more powerful and intelligent than the things I build. I still care about them  though and they aren't even alive. It isn't my will for those creations to be destroyed, nor am I wholly indifferent about the extent of their existence or their purposes.

Nature and evolution are products of the origin of life and existence. To say life and existence are and always have been self subsisting is, again, naive, in my personal humble opinion.

Peace

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[Baruch]

Life and existence are G-d ... and G-d is self subsisting.  Don't separate creation from Creator ... unless you are an anti-reality Gnostic ... as I suspect Christians actually are (Manichee in disguise).  Hate my cat, hate me ... hate creation, hate Creator.  All that Devil is another god stuff has Christians all turned around.

[popsthebuilder]

Life and existence are G-d ... and G-d is self subsisting.  Don't separate creation from Creator ... unless you are an anti-reality Gnostic ... as I suspect Christians actually are (Manichee in disguise).  Hate my cat, hate me ... hate creation, hate Creator.  All that Devil is another god stuff has Christians all turned around.

Hate nothing but that  knowing, blatant, misdirection within oneself.

Fear no thing but the repercussions of one's own knowing actions which are against the selfless conscience.

satan, iblis, baal, whatever is nothing but what we greedily allow it to be within our own lives. It has no power but what is freely and knowingly given it by us.

Peace

Hope you're well, by the way

Yes, life and existence are of GOD, but separation and humility must be constant precepts of any of the faithful as to not become eschewed from what is right and deluded by greed or dreams of attainment of anything but what one knows to be right within their own life.
Without separation there is no humility. Without humility there can only be tyranny.

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[Baruch]

Zoroastrianism had a profound effect on all three Abrahamic faiths.  Do you realize you are Persian at heart?

[popsthebuilder]

Zoroastrianism had a profound effect on all three Abrahamic faiths.  Do you realize you are Persian at heart?

I realize that I, myself strive to do what I know is right regardless of reward or lack there of. I attempt to be faithful to the spirit of life and GOD. I take no offence from being called Persian though, or a follower of the Zoroastrian doctrines, or those of the Jew, Baha'i, Islam, Christian, or any other school of thought that recognizes that true harmony and peace come about through action, not negation or dereliction of what one knows to be right and true. With knowledge rests potential. Indifference to said potential, regardless of knowledge, is chaos. A thing I wish not to dwell in any longer.

I take it you are well, and am glad for such, and too, your words.

Peace friend.



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[doorknob]

Well as I've already stated there is no evidence that a god exists. You have given no good reasons to believe that there is one. Only your self deluded opinion of what humility is.

Atheists are not as you describe at all. We also believe in doing good for the sake of doing good believe it or not. And we are no more selfish than any Christians I can think of. Actually I'd say atheists have better morals than christians for we do not discriminate against homosexuals.

You have a severe misconception about atheism and what it is. That's all thanks to your bible which got it wrong by the way. Atheists are not automatically evil as the bible says. Why not take some time to know us before you decide to judge us? We are just humans the same as christians. We just don't believe in a god for many very good reasons.

To a believer who already believes, your arguments sound good. But understand this, your reasons are crap and your logic, reasoning and critical thinking is very poor in comparison. To us it sounds superstitious and barbaric. God is an unnatural concept created by humans just like fairies and unicorns. If you would just understand that you'd realize why your arguments suck.

[Baruch]

All human conceptions (culture) are unnatural, not just religion.  But that poses a problem for naturalists.

[doorknob]

All human conceptions (culture) are unnatural, not just religion.  But that poses a problem for naturalists.

You bring up an interesting point but I disagree there are some things humans do that are natural. Although it's hard to decide what exactly qualifies as natural for a human, but humans do come from nature so natural is actually a paradox.

[Baruch]

You bring up an interesting point but I disagree there are some things humans do that are natural. Although it's hard to decide what exactly qualifies as natural for a human, but humans do come from nature so natural is actually a paradox.

Rationalists deny the existence of paradox, just as leprechauns deny the existence of unicorns.  Your point is worth many PhD theses in philosophy.

[popsthebuilder]

doorknob,

I haven't really giving my opinion on a definition of humility actually.

Please quote where I described atheists (which I was for over 20 years, easy) as not doing good for the sake of it, or not having a moral compass, or not having a conscience. I most definitely didn't say that atheists in general were more selfish than theists in general. Then you throw in homosexually for good measure? This is beginning to feel like a political debate. Please have the decency to either back your claims about pretend assumptions you claim I hold to, anywhere on the internet, or please stop making said assumptions or stereotyping me, or whatever it is you call yourself doing.

Again you assume too much( any is too much if you were curious). I was an actual athirst for over 20 years. I have a firm grasp of on what it is to not believe in a god. More blind assertions premade for someone else evidently.

Woe....hold on....did you really just say that my misconception of atheism is based on my reading of the bible? Firstly; the bible was not the cause of my faith and was even not the first or second core religious writing I read....about a year ago....there goes that misconception. By the way; the bible doesn't so much speak about the heathen so much as the hypocrite when it refers to the nonbeliever or equivalent. Your actually making me smile...genuinely. I can't take you seriously. Is this really scripted on your part? I know people are coached on how to debate an orthodox Christian, but that mold isn't nearly the right shape or size to contain what I speak of. Not once have I ousted an atheist as evil or less moral or less giving than any other person. These false, wild, distinctions you are making are, well, not based on evidence, but your own presupposition...you know; that thing your attempting to accuse me of? I had no clue atheists were humans too. Learn something new every day.

Wow you are still shitting out of your mouth...let me know if and when you can at very least be sincere to some level.

Sorry, not too humble there, I suppose. Seemed needed though.

Don't be an f'n hypocrite, all while attempting to insult me and perhaps we can enjoy leveled conversation. Oh wait; we are...you decide the playing field.

Peace friend, with sincerity...every word.