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Black/Blue/All Lives Matter Megathread

Started by Hijiri Byakuren, July 24, 2016, 11:14:31 PM

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drunkenshoe

#60
The key words in what Shiranu posted is systematically and institutionally used in the negative with historical perspective. That fact pretty much renders the other fact of 'not all whites' pretty irrelevant to the issue, not to mention it is a ridiculous thing to point it out. Who would argue that any group of any sort is homogenous? It's a strawman argument to bring it up in the issue. It's pretty much like a reaction given in a discussion of rape crime; 'But not all men are rapists'. Pointless. Invalid.


Quote from: Shiranu on September 03, 2016, 01:54:51 PM

"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Mike Cl

^This.
And--systematically and institutionally............

Learned that within the first week of moving to Alabama as a 5th grader.  Bussed to an all white brick school; passed a 'separate but equal' wood shack-like Negro school; shocked by the 'colored' and 'white' signs in public over drinking fountains and bathrooms.  One of the first questions I was asked by my classmates was, 'Are you a rebel of a yank?'.   Alabama was not a nice place--but it was sure a learning place for this little white kid.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mermaid

Quote from: PickelledEggs on September 03, 2016, 11:35:57 PM
This is like how black people get angry when racist white people say "Blacks are dangerous/blacks are criminals/blacks are [insert negative stereotype here]"

And no shit, they're going to get pissed. Because it's mostly not true. Most black people are not criminals. Regardless if black people commit more crime or not. The fact remains that even with those numbers, that is only a percentage of the black community. It's not a representation of the demographic as a whole, and it's not even a representation of the demographic as a half. It's less. Way less than half. A very small percentage.

When you have people saying that white people are nasty towards black people, because it's not even a claim that represents half of the white demographic, but it's a claim that is a minority of white people. It is also racism. The roles are reversed, but it's still racism.
I don't see it as people not liking what others are saying about them. I think the problem is the inability for one group to imagine life as a member of another, to the point where they do not believe what that group is telling them.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Jannabear

Do the actions of BLM conflict with their stated goals? If so, how?
-Yes, Im completely opposed to how police behave in america, yet to me, their actions make no sense.
First off, even if there is genuine racism, what would it accomplish to focus on that aspect of the problem, the solution to the problem wont come from pointing out the possible motivations of corrupt police, also, they never bother pointing out how to fix the problems with cops, and are usually neoliberal idiots who never point out the fact that the laws they are enforcing are shit.

Is All Lives Matter an actual movement, a "calling out your bullshit" reaction, or something else?
-50 percent alt right retards, 30 percent neoliberals, 20 percent random people.
Just some stupid hashtag.

Do the poor choices of police officers/departments reflect badly on the whole profession?
-Theyre enforcing laws that are extremely authoritarian in many instances, and are significantly more violent then most countries' police, so yea.

What is your solution to the issues relating to BLM?
-Blm is poisoning the well for discussion, As for a solution, just creating movements outside of blm to address police brutality.

Do blacks commit more crimes than other races, or are they convicted of more crimes? Also, what is the rate of false convictions among blacks compared to everyone else?
-There may be more unfair convictions or unfair lack of convictions for one or the other, but theres no fucking way this can make up the difference completely.
Blacks are convicted of around 30 percent + of most violent crimes, and over half of the robbery, despite being 13 percent of the population.

Jannabear

Quote from: drunkenshoe on September 04, 2016, 06:32:14 AM
The key words in what Shiranu posted is systematically and institutionally used in the negative with historical perspective. That fact pretty much renders the other fact of 'not all whites' pretty irrelevant to the issue, not to mention it is a ridiculous thing to point it out. Who would argue that any group of any sort is homogenous? It's a strawman argument to bring it up in the issue. It's pretty much like a reaction given in a discussion of rape crime; 'But not all men are rapists'. Pointless. Invalid.
Name me a society in the 17th and 18th centuries that didnt have slavery.
Or atleast any section of the planet.
Name me a single one.
The idea that this was something that white people alone participated in is just fucking retarded.


Shiranu

QuoteThe idea that this was something that white people alone participated in is just fucking retarded.

Two things...

No one has even remotely implied this, nor does someone else doing something bad make it okay. Is slavery in Saudi Arabia of Pakistanis, Senegalese, Sri Lankan, etc. workers somehow less morally reproachable because white people did it as well?

Second, scale... scale... scale.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

Jannabear

Quote from: Shiranu on September 04, 2016, 09:21:34 PM
Two things...

No one has even remotely implied this, nor does someone else doing something bad make it okay. Is slavery in Saudi Arabia of Pakistanis, Senegalese, Sri Lankan, etc. workers somehow less morally reproachable because white people did it as well?

Second, scale... scale... scale.
Drunkenshoe was bringing it up for some reason, so actually yeah, someone was.
And no, but this narrative that exists in america that slavery "is a white thing" is just ridiculous.
I think you missed the point of what I said.
Why drunken decided to mention it in a post about police brutality is beyond me, Slavery of african americans in the west has kind of been gone for a while now, dontchathink?

Shiranu

#68

Quote from: Jannabear on September 04, 2016, 11:05:40 PM
Drunkenshoe was bringing it up for some reason, so actually yeah, someone was.


Where? No where in the quote does she imply that racism was a "white thing", nor in any post. You can certainly say American slavery was though because it historically was.


QuoteAnd no, but this narrative that exists in america that slavery "is a white thing" is just ridiculous.


American slavery was "a white thing", like it or not.


QuoteI think you missed the point of what I said.


That is always quite possible.


QuoteWhy drunken decided to mention it in a post about police brutality is beyond me, Slavery of african americans in the west has kind of been gone for a while now, dontchathink?


No, I really don't think it has. As an institution it has only been abolished for less than 150 years, which is less than a blink of an eye in a historical context. In practice, there were plenty of blacks who were slaves in all but name for at least another 25-50 years at the very least. So that puts us at about 100 years, or only about 3-4 generations from people my age. That is borderline within living memory.


Now take into account the socio-economic situation that ex-slaves were presented when they left the plantation. They were uneducated and the white establishment had no intention to giving them an even remotely equal education for another 64 years after the turn of the century... or within my parents and grandparents memory. And that only gave them access to equal education if it existed where they lived, and access to higher education if they could afford it (which most couldn't).

History is not something that happens and then is over; the ramifications of our actions can echo for hundreds of years. This is another thing I think Americans have a hard time understanding because we lack that type of history; there are conflicts and grudges in the Middle East, in Asia, and yes even in Europe that date back hundreds and hundreds of years before the United States was even a dream; in Europe a perfect example of this is some of the conflicts with the Serbians and their neighbours, who celebrate Vidovdan on the 28th of June... the same day they assassinated Archduke Ferdinand. This was a holiday celebrating a victory in 1389 against the Ottomans... and had ramifications of the mentality of Serbians in 1914 that lead to the first World War.

Do not underestimate history; there is not just the danger of repeating it but of also not understanding why the effects of today are from the sins of our great-great grandfathers. Is it "fair" we have to pay for them? No, not in the least, but nevertheless their actions echo to this day and we have to understand that if we ever want to truly address them and fix them.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

Jannabear

Quote from: Shiranu on September 04, 2016, 11:15:45 PM

Where? No where in the quote does she imply that racism was a "white thing", nor in any post. You can certainly say American slavery was though because it historically was.




American slavery was "a white thing", like it or not.



That is always quite possible.



No, I really don't think it has. As an institution it has only been abolished for less than 150 years, which is less than a blink of an eye in a historical context. In practice, there were plenty of blacks who were slaves in all but name for at least another 25-50 years at the very least. So that puts us at about 100 years, or only about 3-4 generations from people my age. That is borderline within living memory.


Now take into account the socio-economic situation that ex-slaves were presented when they left the plantation. They were uneducated and the white establishment had no intention to giving them an even remotely equal education for another 64 years after the turn of the century... or within my parents and grandparents memory. And that only gave them access to equal education if it existed where they lived, and access to higher education if they could afford it (which most couldn't).

History is not something that happens and then is over; the ramifications of our actions can echo for hundreds of years. This is another thing I think Americans have a hard time understanding because we lack that type of history; there are conflicts and grudges in the Middle East, in Asia, and yes even in Europe that date back hundreds and hundreds of years before the United States was even a dream; in Europe a perfect example of this is some of the conflicts with the Serbians and their neighbours, who celebrate Vidovdan on the 28th of June... the same day they assassinated Archduke Ferdinand. This was a holiday celebrating a victory in 1389 against the Ottomans... and had ramifications of the mentality of Serbians in 1914 that lead to the first World War.

Do not underestimate history; there is not just the danger of repeating it but of also not understanding why the effects of today are from the sins of our great-great grandfathers. Is it "fair" we have to pay for them? No, not in the least, but nevertheless their actions echo to this day and we have to understand that if we ever want to truly address them and fix them.
-Look at the pic she posted
-Actually, many of the people who participated in selling black people into slavery were black themselves, either way, why the fuck does this matter, I dont know if you are aware, but races arent the borg.
Not all black people are african slave owning cannibals, not all white people are slave owning christian fundy retards, not all arabic people are muslim extremist slave owning retards.
-Acting as if almost 2 centuries of time is a short period of time is ridiculous.
-Where did i deny this could have a chain of events leading to black poverty? But why is this relevant?
My way of addressing poverty is obviously different, due to me being a communist, but what would your solution be?
Im not exactly aware of where you lean politically, so, have any ideas on addressing black communities having alot of poverty?
Pointing out that it branched from slavery is pretty meaningless, im pretty sure most people know this, even if they dont, its pointless to point it out.

doorknob

Quote from: Jannabear on September 05, 2016, 12:20:00 AM

-Acting as if almost 2 centuries of time is a short period of time is ridiculous.
-Where did i deny this could have a chain of events leading to black poverty? But why is this relevant?
My way of addressing poverty is obviously different, due to me being a communist, but what would your solution be?
Im not exactly aware of where you lean politically, so, have any ideas on addressing black communities having alot of poverty?
Pointing out that it branched from slavery is pretty meaningless, im pretty sure most people know this, even if they dont, its pointless to point it out.

Um 2 Centuries IS a short period of time. How old is the earth? You're being ridiculous.

It is relevant to bring up the reasons behind why there is black poverty. We can not fix a problem if we don't know why the problem is occurring. Other wise it's just sticking a band aide on a gaping wound.

Just because I don't have a solution to the problem doesn't mean we shouldn't address the problem. It is a compounding issue but it should be addressed.

And I'm not sure the racism branched from slavery. Even in the north where there was no slavery many people were still racist. Racism exists all over the world and is not unique to white people that's for sure. but it isn't pointless to point out that slavery is the beginning of a chain of events leading into what we have today.

Denying that there is a problem IS a problem! Something doesn't go away just by ignoring it.

It's almost like you just want to shut people up.

drunkenshoe

#71
Quote from: Jannabear on September 04, 2016, 09:02:36 PM
Name me a society in the 17th and 18th centuries that didnt have slavery.
Or atleast any section of the planet.
Name me a single one.
The idea that this was something that white people alone participated in is just fucking retarded.

It seems like you didn't get what my was post about and also not aware what is the current convo.

I didn't post that pic, Shiranu did and there were comments on it.

My post is about the reaction of 'not all whites' posted to that pic.  So it is written from the expression of that pic and pointing out that it is a strawman argument. 'But not all whites are racist' is a common reaction in this issue. It's irrelevant and invalid.

There is no conflict between what you wrote to me and what Shiranu posted or what I commented on it. Actually we are saying the same thing in different ways.


"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Havelock Vetinari

Shiranu

Quote from: Jannabear-Look at the pic she posted

Actually I posted it, and nowhere does it imply white people had a monopoly on slavery.

Quote-Actually, many of the people who participated in selling black people into slavery were black themselves, either way, why the fuck does this matter, I dont know if you are aware, but races arent the borg.

100% agreed with the bold, I don't understand how that is relevant to one of the largest and most inhumane institutions of oppression and barbarity ever established in human history being a predominately white affair.

QuoteNot all black people are african slave owning cannibals, not all white people are slave owning christian fundy retards, not all arabic people are muslim extremist slave owning retards.

And no one has even remotely implied they are.

Quote-Acting as if almost 2 centuries of time is a short period of time is ridiculous.

No, it's really not. I study history and anthropology; for history, 200 years is a very short time and for anthropology, where you are dealing with "humans" 30,000 years old and our ancestors hundreds of thousands to millions of years old... 200 years is literally nothing.

Again, it's easy as both Americans but also as citizens of the modern world to think 200 years is a short time, but if you look at it in a historical context then you realise that is nothing. In the last 100 years we have seen more change to...everything... thanks to technology and thus think that change is something common, but if you look at human history from say 500 A.D. to 1800 A.D. then you realise that society takes a VERY long time to change; in that time the life of the average person changed very, very little.

Quote-Where did i deny this could have a chain of events leading to black poverty? But why is this relevant?/quote]

I just posted 4 paragraphs on why it's relevant.

QuoteMy way of addressing poverty is obviously different, due to me being a communist, but what would your solution be?

I doubt it, since I am about as close to a communist as you will find here (yourself excluded).

I personally don't feel like writing a 50 page essay just to answer that question, but the short of it is influence public opinion to the point they are forced to realise their culture treats African Americans as less than equal, increase the educational standards and fundings in inner-city schools and rural areas so that being rich is not a pre-req for a proper education (this benefits all ethnicities, not just African Americans), bring attention to the fact that it is mostly white corporate businessmen who further propagate the "ghetto culture" by featuring black artists who only spread this message while making sure hip hop artists, rappers and movies with a message are not played to nearly the same extent... and so on and so forth.

QuotePointing out that it branched from slavery is pretty meaningless, im pretty sure most people know this, even if they dont, its pointless to point it out.

Again, it's really not. You cant address such a huge issue without taking a holistic view on it. When something is this complex you have to look at it from every possible angle to be absolutely sure you can address it to the best of your ability.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

Baruch

#73
Quote from: Jannabear on September 04, 2016, 11:05:40 PM
Drunkenshoe was bringing it up for some reason, so actually yeah, someone was.
And no, but this narrative that exists in america that slavery "is a white thing" is just ridiculous.
I think you missed the point of what I said.
Why drunken decided to mention it in a post about police brutality is beyond me, Slavery of african americans in the west has kind of been gone for a while now, dontchathink?

Everything is a White thing in the US, not elsewhere, because we have a historical White thing going on here.  White narcissism.  Other places have very different histories.  I dislike what Saudis do to imported domestics ... of course.  Wage slavery and debt slavery are very real ... and we ignore that ... it is all Roots all the time in the US so that we are distracted from the more modern forms of injustice.  biblically, wage slavery and debt slavery are condemned by the Bible,  but not chattal slavery ... but I condemn that too.  The problem being, you can't have a real society without real slavery?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

PickelledEggs

What does slavery have to do with anything? It's so overused as an argument for blm. There are issues that black people face in the current world that other people don't have to, but slavery? Really?

Has anyone been a slave in america recently? Has anyone owned a slave? (with exception of human sex trafficking, with is raceless?) Not any current generations. It's such a stupid argument and invalidates the other points that black lives matter do actually have. If you want to look in to the past so far with this "we were slaves" crap, we could always bring up the "trail of tears" for the native Americans, the way Japanese Americans were treated in the 40s, the way Irish Americans were treated in the 19th century, the way Italian Americans were treated during almost the same time.... etc... etc...

So stop bringing up the "black people were slaves" card, unless you want to not be taken seriously with the push towards equality. We're not talking about the past. We're talking about the here and now. If you want to dwell in the past and get hung up about things that are done with and don't happen any more like slavery, nothing will ever move forward.